Guild Wars 2

I feel this skill can deserve a somewhat rework. It’s use in game is pretty meh and is just another ‘’here, damage + random effect’’ skill. The skill is often used rather as damage skill than actual boon removal. Also the radius totally doesnt match the 5 target limit. It’s not like you will find 5 tarets standing on 120 radius often.

So let’s look at the skill:
Thrust your greatsword into the ground, damaging foes and removing 1 boon.
Casting time: 0.25 seconds.
Cooldown: 12 seconds
Damage: 314 (0.850)
Number of targets: 5
Radius: 120
Range: 1,200
(unable to cast on the move)

One of my biggest issues with this skill is the fact that you need to stand still to cast it so I would love if this skill would be on the move. Compensations will be made later on, or:
Increase radius to 360 and increase casting time to 0.75. This will make it possible to hit the enemy still while it gives the enemy a higher chance to interrupt or dodge the skill.

Then we have to do something about the number of targets and the radius.
As mentioned before, the radius and number of targets don’t really match. While keeping that in mind I truely think increasing the radius would make it way too strong. That’s why decreasing the amount of targets would fit the skill more, so reduce it to 3 targets max.

The range matches the greatsword so nothing to change about that.

As GS is already a pretty heavy damage/spike weapon, I’d suggest lowering the damage by 20%. Additional effects will make up for this.

Mesmer lacks a few things, but in my opinion one of the biggest things we lack is a blast-finisher. Many people brought this up before and I truely think it’s not a bad idea to add a blast finisher to this skill.

The boon removal is good… but… 1 boon? While mesmer is already heavy focussed on boon removal I still think this skill could use some help here. I’d say let it remove 2 boons on hit. With the chance of max targets this skill will have a max of 6 boons removed up from 5.

The cooldown seems fairly low to me, especially when traited. I’d suggest increasing it to 15 seconds up from 12.

So all in all we get:
Thrust your greatsword into the ground, damaging foes and removing 2 boons.
Casting time: 0.25 seconds.
Cooldown: 15 seconds
Damage: 251 (0.850)
Number of targets: 3
Radius: 120
Combo finisher: Blast
Range: 1200
(Able to cast on the move)

Or:
Casting time: 0.75 seconds
Cooldown: 15 seconds
Damage: 251 (0.850)
Number of targets: 3
Radius: 360
Combo finisher: Blast
Range: 1200
(Able to cast on the move)

Discuss!

It’s a bit strange, but I like the root – gives it a satisfying effect, and I’m not sure if it would feel the same if you could cast it on the move.

Blast finisher of course is a worthy idea that has been tossed around a lot – would like to see this done.

Boon removal could be increased to 2, and I agree probably target cap lowered to 3, perhaps with slight radius increase. Yeah 15s cool down could work as well.

Would be a cool 3 second channel that pulsed damage and boon removal, while rooting and disabling the mes for its duration.

edit: I guess it looks like more than just the janitor cares now.

I’d suggest extra bonuses for perfect accuracy/ie radius 60 , maybe increase standard to 180 and slightly weaken it. Might emphasise the stab more than just a radius increase and landing it in PvP would be awesome – yet a straight buff in pve where greatsword in particular could use it. For amusing/overpowered extras, the middle could be unblockable.

Or a blast finisher is nice too but doesn’t really seem to match.

The funny part is: for those of us who’ve fought Tazza in Sorrow’s Embrace, her version of Mind Stab’s got a larger AoE and shoots multiple blades up from the ground.
Why this functionality hasn’t been granted in the case of PC Mesmers is beyond me.
That would at least do something about the attack radius, for crying out loud.
As for boon ripping, be careful what you wish for. I remember it didn’t take too long for Larcenous Strike’s boonrip to get dropped from 2 to 1, so prepare for similar whinging if Mesmers got a double boonrip on MS.
It might be best to hope for the increased AoE, and perhaps a Blast Finisher … especially considering the amount of either that Mesmers possess.

I think gaining a blast finisher in exchange for a slower cast and slightly lower damage would be good. Ideally it wouldn’t root us if the cast was longer.

Being able to blast a water field in WvW would be huge.

As much as I like the suggestion of blast finisher functionality and a bigger radius, it’s probably best not to ask Anet to try and do anything with the functionality of it or they risk breaking it even more when they try to fix it ala iWarden.

I liked the original one.
You needed a target, but therefore, you didn’t need line of sight.
Especially in times of LoS abusing IS-thieves, this would be great to have back.

Alternativly:

• Blast finisher would be great (but I tink, it wont happen, as it seems, ANet wants most of the weapons only to have 2 combo skills).
• Radius increase / increase of Boon removal would also be great.

Another, in my opinion very interesting version would be to make it a boon steal in stead of a boon removal.
Especially if you manage to hit several enemies, the skill would become very strong, however with it’s small radius, it’s also hard to land on a group of ppl.

@ Advent: I’m pretty sure, LS was a boonsteal. Having a 2-boonsteal on a unblockable skill with no CD is somewhat different from Mindstab.

This is where skill evolutions could really shine and bring out variety in gameplay.

For example, taking mind stab – you could have a choice to upgrade it for a wider radius effect (multiple blades), or more focused damage and blast finisher. Only one of these evolutions could be active at any time – similar to major trait swapping.

Same goes for every other skill in the game – too bad given the current rate of progress, we’d be unlikely to see such a system for at least 5 years, if ever.

@EverythingEnds
Yea, I can give you that it’s somewhat different in execution. But before the FS/LS split(IIRC), the boonsteal was 1, then raised to 2 post-split, then promptly QQed back to 1. Which is where the similarity with a “boosted” MS would be. Guaranteed, if we got 2 boon removals on that bad boy, folk WILL QQ it into the dirt.

@ Curunen
I frigging WISH we had that kind of skill-pathing.

i dont think the skill is so bad, its just that the boon removal on shatters is kinda strong.
so as mesmer you either need to use ulties or shatter.
sword aa is sometimes rly hard to use if the node is full of aoe spamm, so a 1200 range remove is not that bad
other professions got a rly hard time to get for example a necro with plague off point to cap it.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon
we are with the necro the best boon removers, thievs are just good cause the traitet steal always get stability.

Just need to remove 2boons. That’s should do it. Hehe

I honestly think the following reworks would make it more useful while not overpowering it.

• Increase radius: Will help to ensure that it actually hits and removes boons AOE. There’s no physical logic behind making this skill usable while moving i.e. Warriors impaling from behind. I don’t think 2 boons is fair considering Mesmers can strip pretty easily. I think the increase in radius helps to alleviate both of these issues.
• Count as a blast finisher: This adds minor support to an otherwise power heavy weapon.
• Reduce dmg by 20%: This compensates for the above buffs. It will hit more often and hit more people more often while giving your entire team buffs if used in a combo. No need to let it keep it’s high dmg.

Increase the radius to 160-200, and make it a blast finisher. I enjoy the quick cast time it provides. I pushed a thief out of shadow refuge earlier and immediately did a mind-stab allowing me to secure the kill. The damage on it is already mediocre in comparison to the auto attack or mirror blade.

I like the blast finisher idea, but… it’s a 1200 range boon remover.

1200!

I think this skill is designed as counter to swiftness, not as a major source of boon removal – and with our access to Ethereal fields(one among them also being a boon shredder), I think having insane access to Chaos Armor via a quick and simple blast finisher would be close to overpowered.

@Kadj.6725
I disagree. The skill is just to remove a boon, but then again the skill is quite strong. At the moment it’s just another ‘’skill that does damage’‘. It adds almost nothing to the weapon. It’s like if we would discuss new skills on this forum and be like ‘’ oh this looks cool; drops a chaotic meteor that does damage’’. Sounds nice, but… what is it good for? Damage? We already got enough of that, especially on GS.

Then also another thing, our glamour skills are atm underrated in so many ways, mainly cause mesmer alone can’t combine it with things besides leaps, which only affect yourself. The range could always be reduced to 900, but look at other classes:
Elementalist;
Eruption → 6 sec cooldown 1200 yards
Dragon’s tooth → 6 second cooldown 900 yards
Thief:
Cluster bomb: no cooldown, 900 yards
Necromancer:
Putrid Mark: 25 seconds cooldown, 1200 yards.
Engineer:
Supply crate: 180 seconds cooldown, 1200 yards

And there are like many more blast finishers. I personally don’t think it will be op in any way. Decreasing damage would at least take away 1 function of the skill as it will become weaker than #1 spam at that point.

@ Swish
Then it will just become another ‘’spam skill’‘. Any brainless monkey can faceroll his keyboard. I’m much more a fan of skills where you actually need to target for yourself, instead of letting the game do the work for you.

Uhh. I hate this topic because people tend to bash me for not wanting a blast finisher on GS#3. And I still think this way. Personally, I just don’t feel that a blast finisher would be appropriate. This mainly derives from my perspective on our weapons. The GS is a very offensive choice while the Staff is more about defensive and supportive gameplay. A blast finisher can provide a lot of valuable group support and based on this classification would fit the Staff a lot better than the GS. Adding a blast finisher to GS#3 might also force the Staff into niche usage even further than it already is the case.

I do agree that Mind Blast could see some improvements, though. I don’t mind the artificial root when casting it because it forces the player to use the skill thoughtfully. But I can think of several enhancements which would fit the theme of the weapon.

• Increased number of targets
• Increased radius
• Increased number of boons ripped
• Conditional bonus like Sw#1.3

One or a combination of those changes could make using GS#3 more meaningful without creating any imbalance among Mesmer weapons. The GS certainly does not need any group support.

Xaylin.1860:

• Increased number of targets

Wouldn’t it break the golden rule AoE 5 target cap?

Xaylin.1860:

• Increased radius

Yes please, 240 or even 360 radius.

Xaylin.1860:

• Increased number of boons ripped
• Conditional bonus like Sw#1.3

How about rips 2 boons if targets have condition(s) on them? —> Good synergy with skills Mirror Blade and iZerker.

BlackDevil.9268:

@Kadj.6725
The skill is just to remove a boon, but then again the skill is quite strong. At the moment it’s just another ‘’skill that does damage’’. It adds almost nothing to the weapon.

I’m not going to speak for PvE here(as there is certainly a divide between what makes a PvE and a PvP weapon), but I’m thinking in terms of its application in PvP. We’re talking about a weapon that is, by design, not meant to be used up close. Your personal DPS is terrible when toe to toe with your target, the control skill moves your enemy away from you, and the Phantasm does both respectable damage, cripples, and chases your target.

I would give this weapon two classifications:
1. It is a punishment weapon, a non-reflective counter against ranged enemies(a favorable option for dealing with non-projectile ranges attackers).
2. It is also a pursuit weapon, intended to keep the enemy within attacking range.

Putting an extra blast finisher on it, upping the boon removal, and/or expanding the boon removal range is out of scope of this weapon – an attempt to give it a more supportive role in combat. This sounds like a great idea if you cite “build diversity”, but build diversity isn’t about making any weapon work in any situation, it’s about a variety in playstyle and combat roles, period.

Besides, we have one of the most insane sources of boon removal already. It’s currently suffering from bugs to some extent, but our mainhand sword – which has a double leap finisher and a 2 second invulnerability with one of our most beloved damaging skills? Boon removal on auto attack. Which sword clones will use.

By the way, did you know you could just put a boon removal sigil on your greatsword? It has a second sigil slot now, you know.

What I’m really trying to say here is that this line of thought is a dead end. There’s more interesting options available in this game for “reworking” this skill. If we really played with the name of the skill some, here’s what I’d like.

Instead of boon removal, I would like a consistent application of Weakness. Since we’re stabbing the very mind of the enemy here, I feel like a moment of uselessness for the enemy would be fitting. At first I was thinking stun or daze would be great, but a bit overpowered. Weakness, I think, would be a nice addition to the mesmer’s consistently-appliable repertoire. It wouldn’t help with pursuits, but it would be a good counter of sorts for ranged glass cannons, and give the GS, as well as the skill in question, just the bit of uniqueness that I feel it really needs to shine.

Duration doesn’t need to be much; leave that to other classes. 1 or 2 seconds would be plenty.

Mesmers only have 1 blast finisher the prestige and due to the delay that’s hard to use. If not on GS3 where else would you put a blast finisher? (Please don’t say Staff 4)

Blast finisher would be cool.

I think if it remains a ground targeted skill, increasing the radius makes a bit less sense thematically than making it similar to traps/marks: it persists for a few seconds and goes off when an enemy crosses it. That way you could lead them a little and still have a chance to hit, or at least make them dodge/avoid it.

Neurophen.9738:

Mesmers only have 1 blast finisher the prestige and due to the delay that’s hard to use. If not on GS3 where else would you put a blast finisher? (Please don’t say Staff 4)

Anet has said they would at some point look at giving classes more weapons. I could see them giving us a Blast finisher on something we don’t currently have… I think shields and daggers are the best contenders for our next weapon, or possibly a mainhand pistol.

@Kadj.6725
Sorry to say but almost everything you said doesnt make much sense.

First of all; Greatsword is actually pretty good when used in close combat. The damage you get from mirror blade will get optimised as it bounces really fast. This is (usually) not possible when standing on range. Also the bounce will give you 6 stacks of might. This will not accur when you’re standing on range.
Also I-wave doesnt work when you’re on 900-1200 yards range due that it only has a 450yards range. I would never say that greatsword is a bad weapon to use when being close to your enemy, cause it sure is pretty strong.

2. When in pvp, your sword clones will never survive till 3rd hit unless you’re stunlocking your enemy and fail to kill him within like 10 seconds with that.

3. Since when is greatsword usefull in pve? I thought going sword-sword, sword-focus was the best?

4. We’re talking about blast finishers and greatsword here. Not sword and leap finishers. Blast finishers are less strong when used solo, so I don’t see why you would bring up them leaps.

5. No one is gonna waste a sigil slot for that garbage.

6. So first you say its not needed to rework the skill, but then after you come up with a rework. Which one do you chose? And no, conditions are already spammed enough in this game. I dont want to be just another class that gets a condition on every reworked skill like warrior.

7. They have said that 1.5 year ago. Not gonna happen for another 1.5 year.

My vote goes for number 4 “Make this a channeled skill that pulses AOE damage and boon removal while you hold the sword in the ground.”

This would be extremely interesting and give Mesmer some much needed AoE damage in a way that can be used creatively rather than “spam skill & forget”.

Thx Karl – it’s great to see your posts here

I’m with Chaos, #4 sounds interesting.

I love greatsword and this is the one skill that is “meh” enough that I feel like I’m screwing up when I use it.

Still… if it was a choice between doing something for this skill or fixing other things like iWarden or make iMage impactful, I’d rather see those other things get fixed – even though I don’t use focus or torch.

Have a great Friday

i’m with chaos Archangel on this one.

Karl McLain.5604:

Here’s a bunch of potential things we could do (we would do one or maybe two of these, not all:

1. Look at making it usable on the move. Currently, the animation is ONLY able to be used while standing still.
2. Increase the number of boons removed.
3. Increase the radius.
4. Make this a channeled skill that pulses AOE damage and boon removal while you hold the sword in the ground.
5. Multi-stab! You choose multiple ground targets and stab all of them simultaneously (or one-after the other). We don’t have tech for this yet… but it’s a possibility!

Hiya Karl,

1. I like the movement restriction as it is.
2. More boon removal would make it more effective at its niche only. For most of PvE’s content, where there aren’t (many) boons to remove, Mind Stab would remain yet another damage skill. However, increasing boon removal to 2 would be really cool for a trait’s effect. Add that to greatsword training, replacing it over +50 power. Players love exciting/ creative traits, and mesmer already has some very good examples (torch cleansing, focus reflection). Add this to Greatsword Training.
3. The radius should be increased slightly. However, it wouldn’t make the overall effect more interesting/ less situational, just more reliable. If you could make two (instead of one) changes to this skill, the second change should be a radius increase.
4. The channel idea is awesome and I love it.
5. Multi-stab is awesome too, and I love it too.

Both of your creative suggestions can be counter-played nicely, too, especially from interrupts. This makes them more interesting in pvp as well. The Greatsword Training trait could also be creatively adapted to any of them. Either by giving one extra stab, or by decreasing the channel time. More interesting stuff that the current +50 power the trait offers as an additional effect.

Keep in mind its better to give a quick vote and small reason why rather than large paragraphs to make it easier for the devs to read through the thread.

• bullets (* before ur text) work well too

Chaos Archangel.5071:

My vote goes for number 4 “Make this a channeled skill that pulses AOE damage and boon removal while you hold the sword in the ground.”

This would be extremely interesting and give Mesmer some much needed AoE damage in a way that can be used creatively rather than “spam skill & forget”.

This! I think that reworking Mind Stab is a good chance to give mesmers some reliable AoE/zerg fighting love.

Agreed with channel or something interesting – maybe increase the root duration and have a reflect or some sort of defensive effect up while channeling?

Karl,

While number 4 sounds really awesome for Mind Stab, I wanted to point out something really quick.

This pretty much cements Greatsword as the Go-To weapon for any Mesmer, even Condi mesmers can get good useage out of Mirror Blade and Mind Stab.

If Mind Stab is getting a little buff, we really need to look at Scepter as well. Scepter as a whole feels completely lackluster and is not strong for Power or Condi builds. Not to mention that it just feels slow with its auto-attack, compared to a Mesmer’s other weapons.

Hopefully we can find a happy medium between all the weapons. Thank you, sir.

Malchior

Karl McLain.5604:

Some great ideas here guys! This skill is something we’ve been looking at, as it’s a little underwhelming at times.

Here’s a bunch of potential things we could do (we would do one or maybe two of these, not all:

1. Look at making it usable on the move. Currently, the animation is ONLY able to be used while standing still.
2. Increase the number of boons removed.
3. Increase the radius.
4. Make this a channeled skill that pulses AOE damage and boon removal while you hold the sword in the ground.
5. Multi-stab! You choose multiple ground targets and stab all of them simultaneously (or one-after the other). We don’t have tech for this yet… but it’s a possibility!
6. ???
7. Profit!

Tagging this thread for later.

Multi stab sounds awesome, but as you said, you don’t have the tech, yet. But while it sounds awesome, combined with a new tech, I only see another bugfest for Mesmers.

I’m actually not a fan of making it channeled. Channeling always means easy to interrupt and restricts you.
UNLESS: It becomes player aimed again and I can Minstab-channel dat freakin stealthing thief to death. While writing this, I realize how much I really, really want this.
DO. IT.

I still would prefer boosting it to boonsteal. :>

That channeled AoE would still be an aimed skill that is stationary.

Ok, can I please have a HUGE ugly green aiming reticule?

…. and lets tone down a lot of the other visual spam, because I’m constantly losing my cursor.

Karl McLain.5604:

Some great ideas here guys! This skill is something we’ve been looking at, as it’s a little underwhelming at times.

Here’s a bunch of potential things we could do (we would do one or maybe two of these, not all:

1. Look at making it usable on the move. Currently, the animation is ONLY able to be used while standing still.
2. Increase the number of boons removed.
3. Increase the radius.
4. Make this a channeled skill that pulses AOE damage and boon removal while you hold the sword in the ground.
5. Multi-stab! You choose multiple ground targets and stab all of them simultaneously (or one-after the other). We don’t have tech for this yet… but it’s a possibility!
6. ???
7. Profit!

Tagging this thread for later.

Combine 3 and 4, have it do 4 instances over 3 seconds, the first one being instant and each successive pulse being 1 second after (3 second channel) make it start with a larger AoE and each pulse decrease the AoE and increase the damage proportionally have the last pulse do damage and daze for 1 sec instead of boon removal. Make the radius scale 50% larger than it is now down to 25% then 0 then -25%.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

That channeled AoE would still be an aimed skill that is stationary.

Ok, can I please have a HUGE ugly green aiming reticule?

…. and lets tone down a lot of the other visual spam, because I’m constantly losing my cursor.

People actually use those things? You can turn them off in options.

my vote is for #4 as long as it’s still ground targeted, this would be really interesting!

I’ll sign on as a fan of 3 and 4. Could be rather fun.

DiogoSilva.7089:

1. More boon removal would make it more effective at its niche only. For most of PvE’s content, where there aren’t (many) boons to remove, Mind Stab would remain yet another damage skill. However, increasing boon removal to 2 would be really cool for a trait’s effect. Add that to greatsword training, replacing it over +50 power. Players love exciting/ creative traits, and mesmer already has some very good examples (torch cleansing, focus reflection). Add this to Greatsword Training.

This.

Also I agree that #4 sounds like a really nice change.

I’ll be OK with giving up ground target as long as the skill doesn’t require line of sight so execute. Otherwise ground target is the skills saving grace. All those object on tower/keep walls that get obstructed for auto attacks are still hit-able with mind stab.

I do not see any point in buffing greatsword as it is already the most popular mesmer weapon by far.

Deniara Devious.3948:

I do not see any point in buffing greatsword as it is already the most popular mesmer weapon by far.

I wouldn’t mind if the phantasm was slightly nerfed for a creative buff to Mind Stab. The overall damage would remain the same, but the weapon would depend less on AI, and be more interesting/ fun to use instead.

Karl, whilst it’s always great to see devs take the time to comment in the forums, I would very much prefer to see some broken skills fixed before things like this are looked at being reworked.

Could the devs please take a look at the big mesmer bugs post in the bug forum? I think the majority would rather see some dev responses in there.

If this is really where priority for development resource is being put for mesmer….wow….just wow.

Deniara Devious.3948:

I do not see any point in buffing greatsword as it is already the most popular mesmer weapon by far.

Even if a weapon set is popular, doesn’t mean that the good skills negate the need to improve the weak skills. All weapon skills should serve a purpose, and I’ve never been nuked by any combo from this skill. It’s pretty easy to avoid too given the height they raise the sword to begin with. As long as there is some visual queue to greatly effective skills, I don’t see any problems buffing them (which btw, thank you for the pin down change!) The pulsing boon stripping AoE sounds neat, it certainly has the down side of turning you into a sitting duck to keep it up.

However I really wish the damage of certain phantasms were slightly reduced. Being kited and having phantasms do heavy damage is not fun to play against; Not fun being described as “zzzzzzzz, oh you did something different?”. I rarely find fun dueling mesmers, it’s just chasing butterflies all day and being slowly melted in the meantime by AI. Finding them is cake once they exit stealth, what’s kitten is the amount of damage you take while they are stealthed.

Karl McLain.5604:

Some great ideas here guys! This skill is something we’ve been looking at, as it’s a little underwhelming at times.

Here’s a bunch of potential things we could do (we would do one or maybe two of these, not all:

1. Look at making it usable on the move. Currently, the animation is ONLY able to be used while standing still.
2. Increase the number of boons removed.
3. Increase the radius.
4. Make this a channeled skill that pulses AOE damage and boon removal while you hold the sword in the ground.
5. Multi-stab! You choose multiple ground targets and stab all of them simultaneously (or one-after the other). We don’t have tech for this yet… but it’s a possibility!
6. ???
7. Profit!

Tagging this thread for later.

Not sure why you’d think of buffing MS – it’s already pretty strong. there’s a long list of far crappier skills that ought to get looked at first.

I’m voting for #2-4
Though 5 seems interesting, but I’m not exactly sure how it would work, whether we might have to click and choose multiple targets or if it would work kind of like the Engi’s grenades. Personally, I’m imagining it will be targeting and stabbing independently after the first hit.

Yeah, definitely keep the small reticle. In fact, more skills should require the skills of aiming like this to anticipate moving. But yes, given that the reticle is so small on this skill, a second boon strip would be nice. I like option 4 as well. And keep the root; again, I like skills with tradeoffs like this—root in exchange for offense.

I’m voting for #2-4 as well.

I would be pleased with bigger radius (3) and channeled AoE (4). No point of having channeled AoE without a bigger radius. Just look at how huge radius AoE damage skills of other classes have.

It would help very much the mesmer on AoE tagging if it happens.

First, please stop self suggesting nerfs. It has taken me so long to be a credible pvp/wvw Mesmer.. so many instant deaths.. Mesmer doesn’t need any nerfing.

I have shied away from using GS though I like it alot. It has almost no defensive value in WvW.

I think returning the cast to regular targeting is a great idea. When I do use GS, mind stab is pretty much useless in most situations as it stands. It’s too slow except perhaps against surprised foes or siege operators. With regular targeting it would be more useful.