Guild Wars 2

Dev just post on balance forum that they have an alternative plan to make DD not trigered by overriding Clone.
here is the original post.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Thanks for the feedback guys, there were some good points brought up here. This is why we wanted to discuss these future changes so that we had time to adjust to your feedback.

We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

I just want to say, please don’t do this, this just made scepter 1 compeletly useless, all the light class scepter is a condition applier, by doing this you take away our only reason to use scepter 1 and it is not fair as if a 2 sec cast is not long enough, 2 sec if people are not seeing it coming while we have to remember which clone we pop out first which is already a burden on our side, it is just really not our fault

This is what I feared would happen.

The whole reason the DE nerf was planned like that was – IMO – to nerf the combination without having to nerf the already way underpowered on-death traits. Because really, on their own they’re woefully weak.

In a way, this impacts Mesmers far more because it nerfs one of our already weakest setups, instead of one of our strongest ones. We can take a nerf to the stronger sides, as long as we get buffs – not nerfs – to the weaker areas. Scepter AA is one of the weakest ones.

Although in the end, it’d be easy to “fix” the whole mess if they could fix the problem of range-dependent damage on Scepter AA. If it always worked as fast as it does when in melee, we’d have much less of a problem with any other change.

That being said, it’s excessive to pretend like all Scepter 1 is good for is replacing clones. Yes, it generates clones, but 9 times out of 10 those are used for shatter.

Re-posting this here since it’s very relavent

~snip~
We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

This sentence should terrify any remaining Condition Mesmers.

Just to see how devastating this would be on only one of our few semi-direct Condition applying abilities (scepter auto-attack coupled with ‘on clone death’ traits) I did some tests in the Heart of the Mists. This is apparently what the developers are worried is unbalancing the game. I’ll let the numbers speak for themselves.

Stationary Target Test (PvE):
Single stationary target golem (to represent PvE stationary target) auto-attacking with scepter skill 1 and all three clone death traits (45 point investment) taken.

Results:

• Weakness 50% up-time
• 1 stack of confusion 100% up-time
• Cripple 100% up-time
• 3 stacks of Vulnerability 50% up-time
• 3-6 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time

Moving Target Test (PvP):
Single moving target golem (to represent slow moving PvP target) auto-attacking with scepter skill 1 and all three clone death traits (45 point investment) taken.

Results:

• 0-3 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time
• Occasional spikes similar to the stationary results when the target gets crippled, but the duration/stacks of the conditions were reduced. This spike would trigger roughly once every 20 seconds only when the target was snared by cripple and only if near the clone being destroyed.

Debilitating Dissipation Test:
Debilitating Dissipation trait removed, other two ‘clone death’ traits still active.

Stationary Results (PvE):

• 1 stack of confusion 100% up-time
• Cripple 100% up-time
• 0-4 stacks of Bleed 100% up-time

Moving Results (PvP):

• 0-3 stacks of Bleed
• Occasional spikes similar to the stationary results when the target gets crippled, but the duration/stacks of the conditions were reduced. This spike would trigger roughly once every 20 seconds only when the target was snared by cripple and only if near the clone being destroyed.

Wasbunny, the problem is really not whether they’re nerfing condition in general or not.

Really isn’t. I don’t want my playstyle to be dependent on Chaos V. Partially because I keep dying in WvW without Chaos II. :P

Problem is, they’re nerfing two things which are already really weak now (on-death traits and Scepter AA) instead of something which is really strong (DE).

I have problem with Dev’s attitude on nerfing been the only solution to our situation, the talk of power creep definitely has terrified dev to an extent where they had confined their decision making to nerfing the existing traits rather than work out a plan where nerfing and buffing are combined to solve the problem.
if they were to nerf chaos V or DD, they should compensate condition mesmer by giving us a reliable condition applier via scepter 1 attack chain. OR

They should make chaos V or DD applieble on shatter.

Scepter weak? Are you sure we are playing the same game?

The weapon has insane condi spike.

And the problem isnt that DE is too strong, the problem is every shatter build currently in use just does not work without DE as it is now. If you lock away shatter chain you kill the last active build mesmers still have and isnt about clones dying left and right from cleave and spamming conditons all over the place with AI clones.

The elimination of an entire build and play-style (Condition Mesmer) with no supporting testing data and central hypothesis based solely on the devs finding it ‘cheesy’ is a huge problem.

I also completely disagree that Deceptive Evasion as it’s functioning right now is too strong and is unbalancing the game. I conducted a separate test specifically proving this point.

Stievie.6128:

Scepter weak? Are you sure we are playing the same game?

“Scepter AA”.

Or rather, Scepter in any situation but the best-case.

I see where this is going to. They once mentioned that they will rework the scepter aa since it feels terrible atm. They are slowly taking away the condition part of the traits combined with this aa. I guess this ends like:

• scepter 1 gains conditions
• scepter becomes a full condtition weapon
• main hand pistol replaces it as a power 1h ranged weapon

It looks pretty obvious to me.

Xyonon.3987:

I see where this is going to. They once mentioned that they will rework the scepter aa since it feels terrible atm. They are slowly taking away the condition part of the traits combined with this aa. I guess this ends like:

• scepter 1 gains conditions
• scepter becomes a full condtition weapon
• main hand pistol replaces it as a power 1h ranged weapon

It looks pretty obvious to me.

First, they’ve straight up said that the scepter auto won’t be getting conditions (and I agree with this, too much condition spam already).

Additionally, you have them adding a new weapon (MH pistol). If that happens within the next year I’ll be surprised, so maybe ‘obvious’ as in an ultra-long term plan, but definitely not a viable balance solution.

Yes you’re right. The condispam was mentioned too, forgot about that. But it seems like a fix for PvE wich isn’t really the reason to balance the scepter (not overwriting phantasms). Strange

As far as I am concerned, clone-death builds give Mesmers a semi-viable side bunker build that comes at the cost of practically no group support.

I think the build is fine as-is.

I totally agree with anet in this point. Making it impossible for us to kill our clones by ourselves is one step in the right direction. We are mesmers since guild wars 1 we were the class that does the reactio. The enemy destroys our clones → he’ll be punished for this. It’s a mesmer’s style to dominate the enemy by leaving the difficult choices in battle up to him.

Like in GW1:
Backfire: Deals dmg when he casts a spell
Wastrel’s Demise: Deals dmg over time when he doesn’t cast a spell
The enemy had to choose what skill is more dangerous for him.

Example:
A clonespam mesmer with Chaos-V who’s able to destroy his clones by himself will cause massive aoe-conditions in his fighting area without using the clones for something else.

After a patch it’ll be like this:
The mesmer’s enemy will have to choose between killing the illusions and suffer to the resulting conditions and letting the illusions life what will cause some extra conditions.

But the problem with the postnerf situation is that the ondeath traits are still too weak to make anyone choose between killing or bearing the damage from our illusions.
When they nerf the gameplay of these builds, they could just buff the traits themself:

For example one could make Chaos-V to always inflict a few stacks of bleed (like Chaotic Interruption always inflicts immobilize) to make it more viable in conditionbuilds. Also they could make all ondeath traits trigger with every illusion because at the moment the enemy would be punished only for killing weak clones but not for killing the bigger problem: phantasms.

kills the clone that he could easily ignore → suffers to conditions
kills the phantasm that deals good dmg → is happy that it’s away now

Well this is my opinion. I agree with the devs in this situation.

~ Me Games Ma

currently the only reason to use on death traits are chosen is because there is no better traits to use for condition Mesmer. this trait along gives the scepter 1 chain attack a reason to be used and gives hardly spammable condition applier, 2 sec cast, not guaranteed what earth does this make this hurt anybody?
clone by it self is stationary, its explosion has a radius of 240, if people does not move out of it its not our fault, ITS SIMPLY NOT FAIR THAT ALL THE BURDEN OF CONDITION APPLICATION TO BE SOLELY ON OUR SIDE.
I really hope this purpose as someone might suggested in the live stream is contributed by someone that is not even on the Dev team , totally irresponsible, lack of in depth thinking , credibility and some might even start to speculate that it is purely out of biased personal preference.

@Me Games Ma

That’s a pretty good point, we shouldn’t be able to trigger the stuff directly.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Xyonon.3987:

…

First, they’ve straight up said that the scepter auto won’t be getting conditions (and I agree with this, too much condition spam already).

Additionally, you have them adding a new weapon (MH pistol). If that happens within the next year I’ll be surprised, so maybe ‘obvious’ as in an ultra-long term plan, but definitely not a viable balance solution.

I do not agree with the points Xyonon made but I think he might be right about the changes being made in preparation for a scepter changes (whatever that may be). It would be sad though because it destroys a whole playstyle. I guess Mesmers are just not supposed to actively apply Conditions. *rolleyes

Not sure where people are getting the idea that Mesmers should be the only profession in the game without a reliable way to apply conditions.

The current trait under attack is Debilitating Dissipation which has a 33% chance to apply a short duration damaging condition if the first clone produced happens to be standing next to the target when overwritten. This is being seen by some (devs agreeing apparently) as a too strong and controllable (trigger stuff directly) way to apply conditions for Mesmers.

Boggles the mind.

I read the title and just thought to myself, how could they make scepter 1 even weaker?

To add something, I think the whole building around clones being destroyed wasn’t intended by the devs.

That’s what I guess too. The “clones getting destroyed and cuase ouchies” thing seems to be abused in their eyes. It seems that the enemy should suffer if he hits the wrong mesmer, not if we destroy them by overwrting them. However the effects seem to be too weak for that.

• remove clone / phantasm override at scepter 1
• reduces the casttime of scepter 1 to be the same as the first two hits
• increase the power of “on clone death” traits.
• creating clones with mirror images or ileap should still destroy clones n’ phants.

Anet seriously needs to hire a professional writer who knows how to make clear, concise sentences.

In this thread they said the following https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Deceptive-Evasion-nerf:

Josh Davis.6015:

Hey mesmers,

For clarification: if you have 0-2 clones out and you dodge, you will summon a clone.

If you have 3 clones out and you dodge, nothing will happen.

This I don’t mind so much because the majority of my clone deaths are from skills on my weapon bar and not from mindless dodging…no big deal.

But, now there’s this line that is from the OP:

Thanks for the feedback guys, there were some good points brought up here. This is why we wanted to discuss these future changes so that we had time to adjust to your feedback.

We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

I really hope this isn’t the case. I mean the only damaging condition in DD is a 1 in 3 chance of bleeds. The other is vulnerability which is worthless for a condition build and the third is weakness…which is pretty sweet for debuffing hard hitting classes. What irks me is that we’re getting the nerf when you have so many mindless condi spam classes. We can’t even get our condi up time until we have three clones generated whereas other classes like necros, engis, and warriors can spam things like OOOh i don’t know 12 stacks of bleeds, chill, burning, poison…you know…condis that actually matter! Furthermore you have to be marinating in the Mesmer’s clones to get hit by the conditions.

So, I don’t understand why a 1/3 chance to cause bleeds on the target is ridiculously OP and needs a nerf, but it’s ok for other classes to set it and forget it condi spam.

Mek.2947:

So, I don’t understand why a 1/3 chance to cause bleeds on the target is ridiculously OP and needs a nerf, but it’s ok for other classes to set it and forget it condi spam.

I mentioned it in another thread but I think that this way of view might just be wrong. Yes, the traits aren’t overpowered. However, when considering the dev post this appears to be a design decision. Although it has been articulated in a pretty unprofessional manner. They do not want the on death traits to be used actively. Period. It is not about balancing so it does not matter how strong the traits are.

While I can understand their design decision I feel that they have been very insensitive about the timing and the communication. I’m bothered by the fact they are wasting time on a mechanic which is rather unimportant for the class or game balance. I also don’t get why they would decrease build diversity.

Maybe we are missing the bigger picture at the moment because they were not allowed to talk about everything. But the incomming class changes better be better than some peripheral Mantra love.

Xaylin.1860:

Mek.2947:

So, I don’t understand why a 1/3 chance to cause bleeds on the target is ridiculously OP and needs a nerf, but it’s ok for other classes to set it and forget it condi spam.

I mentioned it in another thread but I think that this way of view might just be wrong. Yes, the traits aren’t overpowered. However, when considering the dev post this appears to be a design decision. Although it has been articulated in a pretty unprofessional manner. They do not want the on death traits to be used actively. Period. It is not about balancing so it does not matter how strong the traits are.

While I can understand their design decision I feel that they have been very insensitive about the timing and the communication. I’m bothered by the fact they are wasting time on a mechanic which is rather unimportant for the class or game balance. I also don’t get why they would decrease build diversity.

Maybe we are missing the bigger picture at the moment because they were not allowed to talk about everything. But the incomming class changes better be better than some peripheral Mantra love.

I’m starting to think you might be right Xaylin, that regardless of the weak justifications given it’s not about balance at all, but about a fundamental design decision they feel they need to reinstate. Still baffling but that at least would offer some rationale.

Recently there’s been some very detailed and intelligently presented explanations by the game designers on other threads (addressing the consumable pet CD for example). Really think an official explanation from the balance team as to not the ‘how’ of this change but to the ‘why’ would save us all a lot of time.

lol scepter #1 I just saw the title and started laughing… sorry

Scepter #1 was abandoned for dead by the devs before the game was even out.
Mesmer = Sword mainhand.

Scepter’s a joke: on phantasms, on attack speed, on effective play, on the using player. This will never be fixed, let it go, use a sword. There will be 17 more Scarlet patches before any bugs/QoLs pile is addressed.

Korossive.7085:

lol scepter #1 I just saw the title and started laughing… sorry

Scepter #1 was abandoned for dead by the devs before the game was even out.
Mesmer = Sword mainhand.

Scepter’s a joke: on phantasms, on attack speed, on effective play, on the using player. This will never be fixed, let it go, use a sword. There will be 17 more Scarlet patches before any bugs/QoLs pile is addressed.

People have been using scepter to great effect for quite a while now. You’re behind apparently.

Scepter in WVW is great. Scepter in PVP can be used. Scepter in PVE… wellllll

The fact is the scepter #1 AA is only useful when combined with the clone death traits to any build other than shatter. Take away that and scepter #1 does a Condition or Phantasm Mesmer no good at all.

And once again if you actually look at the dissipation traits in practice (by testing on a moving target golem for instance) you’ll quickly see how lackluster they really are.

The sword is definitely more useful than the scepter in pve in the sense that you have an evade, teleport and a lot of aoe damage in melee when safe to do so. But the scepter isn’t bad either if you’re consistently landing the torment and confusion attack. In a group, if traited, the scepter 1 gives you free clones that can also apply weakness on an enemy group from a safe distance to facilitate your groups stacking ability. But the scepter is a lot more single target than the sword and thus will take longer to kill mobs in general. The scepter clone is however problematic in that it stays stationary, unlike the sword clone that chases after the target. Since it is stationary, the scepter clone has a lower potential for condition application on the enemy when compared to the sword clone.

There are some fights where I prefer the sword and there are fights where I prefer the scepter. I swap in and out scepter and sword for main hand and sword and pistol for offhand all the time. Fights like lyssa and fire shaman I definitely find using the scepter to be easier. Fights like ulgoth, foul bear, eye of zhaitan events I prefer the sword. I’m talking about solo and small group runs here. If theres a zerg there it really doesn’t matter what you use you’ll find it easy.

I’ve also ran all the dungeons and fractals up to lv 50 with both weapons on multiple occations. My opinion is both sword and scepter are not bad. The play style’s different that’s all.

Wasbunny.6531:

The fact is the scepter #1 AA is only useful when combined with the clone death traits to any build other than shatter. Take away that and scepter #1 does a Condition or Phantasm Mesmer no good at all.

And once again if you actually look at the dissipation traits in practice (by testing on a moving target golem for instance) you’ll quickly see how lackluster they really are.

That’s like saying the sword does no dmg in a condition build. You’re looking at it the wrong way.

I recently switched back to my condi build and was thinking about this the other day. I only care about my scepter 2 when using it. The AA is so inconsequential that I really don’t even think about actually auto attacking anyone.

The #3 channel is so clunky and awkard it’s often something I use when I’m just trying to waste time waiting for other CD’s. The worst part about scepter #3 to me is how easy it is to self interrupt and give yourself a internal cd because while kiting somebody you turn slightly too far outwards. The one saving grace of scepter #3 is with runes of perplexity i almost always get 8 stacks of confusion.

The scepter #2 on the other hand is amazing and will pretty much one shot the majority of thieves. Some thief last night just /cowered at me after they tried multiple times to dent me. 5 stacks of Torment with 1775 condi power will tear people up.

Really if they could just make the AA a little faster and crisp I’d like that. The #3 channel just needs that entire front end animation removed. The channel is like starting up a old car on a cold day.

My favorite part of scepter is that new mesmers get it as their starting weapon. I almost feel like this is a intentional troll by the devs to curb the amount of mesmers that make it past level 10.

squallaus.8321:

Wasbunny.6531:

The fact is the scepter #1 AA is only useful when combined with the clone death traits to any build other than shatter. Take away that and scepter #1 does a Condition or Phantasm Mesmer no good at all.

And once again if you actually look at the dissipation traits in practice (by testing on a moving target golem for instance) you’ll quickly see how lackluster they really are.

That’s like saying the sword does no dmg in a condition build. You’re looking at it the wrong way.

Not really. Sword #1 AA with clones generated is a boon stripping / Vulnerability machine. Useful in any build. The clones also are melee so they follow the target, keeping the target in range of any ‘clone death’ traits. This becomes really handy if running a ‘clone death’ condition build.

The scepter #1 AA applies no buffs or debuffs on it’s own. The clones do 0 damage and likewise apply no buffs or debuffs on their own. The clones are also ranged so will not follow the target until it’s at it’s max. This puts them out of range of most ‘clone death’ traits when overwritten anyway. They become only shatter fodder, and in a build with no Power or shatter traits the only shatter that is potentially damage dealing is Cry of Frustration. And of course no shatter traits are taken in a Condition or Phantasm build.

If they de-couple the clone death traits from scepter #1 they take away the only thing it contributes to any build other than shatter.

Just talking about scepter skill #1 Auto-Attack here remember.

Wasbunny.6531:

squallaus.8321:

Wasbunny.6531:

The fact is the scepter #1 AA is only useful when combined with the clone death traits to any build other than shatter. Take away that and scepter #1 does a Condition or Phantasm Mesmer no good at all.

And once again if you actually look at the dissipation traits in practice (by testing on a moving target golem for instance) you’ll quickly see how lackluster they really are.

That’s like saying the sword does no dmg in a condition build. You’re looking at it the wrong way.

Not really. Sword #1 AA with clones generated is a boon stripping / Vulnerability machine. Useful in any build. The clones also are melee so they follow the target, keeping the target in range of any ‘clone death’ traits. This becomes really handy if running a ‘clone death’ condition build.

The scepter #1 AA applies no buffs or debuffs on it’s own. The clones do 0 damage and likewise apply no buffs or debuffs on their own. The clones are also ranged so will not follow the target until it’s at it’s max. This puts them out of range of most ‘clone death’ traits when overwritten anyway. They become only shatter fodder, and in a build with no Power or shatter traits the only shatter that is potentially damage dealing is Cry of Frustration. And of course no shatter traits are taken in a Condition or Phantasm build.

If they de-couple the clone death traits from scepter #1 they take away the only thing it contributes to any build other than shatter.

Just talking about scepter skill #1 Auto-Attack here remember.

You actually think sword mainhand has dps in a condition build even with the clone on dead traits? And you’d take a sword over scepter even for a condition build in pve? The confusion and torment dmg from the scepter will easily out dmg a sword in a condition build with clone on death, even in pve. And the boon strips and vuln debuffs from the sword doesn’t exactly do much for a condition build unless the enemy has regen. That debuff and boon strip combination from sword clones only shines over a scepter clone when theres someone else there to do the main dmg for you.

And no the scepter AA clones aren’t always out range of the enemy escpecially in pve because the enemy AI is dumb. As you kite around in circles free scepter AA clones at random locations + dodges work quite well in pve actually. It scales better when there’s are a larger number of enemies around.

Wasbunny.6531:

The fact is the scepter #1 AA is only useful when combined with the clone death traits to any build other than shatter. Take away that and scepter #1 does a Condition or Phantasm Mesmer no good at all.

I don’t necessarily see why not. Yes, Scepter AA is bad, but keep in mind that inwards of 600 range it out-damages Greatsword. It’s not behind as far as people love to spout, the worst issue it has is the delay on advancing the chain. :s

I just hope that whatever gets changed, the scepter can still be used as power weapon for people who want to fight at range. It’s the only one-handed weapon that can be used at range.

For that case, just making the autoattack a little faster would be great.

I know that using it as a weapon in a condi build is much more prevalent, but when you get used to how it works, the scepter can be fine in a power build. I felt it was worth investing in making an ascended version – hopefully it won’t get an unintentional nerf when they try to make it better.

Still beleve in pistol mainhand :O xD someday :P

A faster aa would be awesome tough.

I don’t see the need for a split into a condition and a power mainhand, assuming the power/condition imbalance in builds and stats gets fixed at a more basic level. Conditions should never be unwanted for power builds, and vice versa with direct damage.

Yet currently, it is.

Xyonon.3987:

Still beleve in pistol mainhand :O xD someday :P

A faster aa would be awesome tough.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/upcoming-guild-wars-2-pvp-community-tournament-events/

Take a look at the bottom picture on that page and tell me what you see. We can dream.

Carighan.6758:

I don’t see the need for a split into a condition and a power mainhand, assuming the power/condition imbalance in builds and stats gets fixed at a more basic level. Conditions should never be unwanted for power builds, and vice versa with direct damage.

Yet currently, it is.

I agree with Carighan here. As it stands now though I personally feel that scepter is way too condi reliant. I’ve tried it in power builds but torment scales really well with condi. I think If they made the AA chain crisper and snappier and made #3 also more responsive that would go a long way’s towards helping the weapon.

I think the wind-up on #3 happened because back then Confusion was dangerous, so they wanted this really obvious tell.

Nowadays Confusion barely tickles, so yeah… not exactly accurate anymore.

Godmoney.2048:

Xyonon.3987:

Still beleve in pistol mainhand :O xD someday :P

A faster aa would be awesome tough.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/upcoming-guild-wars-2-pvp-community-tournament-events/

Take a look at the bottom picture on that page and tell me what you see. We can dream.

Sylvari engineer in medium cultural armor using two pistols.

fufu.8345:

Godmoney.2048:

Xyonon.3987:

Still beleve in pistol mainhand :O xD someday :P

A faster aa would be awesome tough.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/upcoming-guild-wars-2-pvp-community-tournament-events/

Take a look at the bottom picture on that page and tell me what you see. We can dream.

Sylvari engineer in medium cultural armor using two pistols.

Just was about to say that :o

fufu.8345:

Godmoney.2048:

Xyonon.3987:

Still beleve in pistol mainhand :O xD someday :P

A faster aa would be awesome tough.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/upcoming-guild-wars-2-pvp-community-tournament-events/

Take a look at the bottom picture on that page and tell me what you see. We can dream.

Sylvari engineer in medium cultural armor using two pistols.

Must you crush dreams? You going to squash some butterfly’s later?