Guild Wars 2

Hello everyone, I make this post cause I’m getting very frustrated about the condition/cloak build that some mesmers are using at the moment. Of course I’m trying it out myself and this got me more and more frustrated.
I’m talking about the 20/20/30 traitline, usually with Crippling Dissipation, Cleansing Conflagration, Phantasmal Fury, Deceptive Evasion, Debilitating Dissipation and of course… Prismatic Understanding. Then you get a Torch offhand, Decoy (maybe also Veil), and Mass Invisibility.
The rest I guess is up to your gameplay (taking a Staff, or Sword/Pistol, Scepter ecc)… And this can work with Rampager, Rabid, Dire, or mix with Berserker gear too.

I’ve been playing this so long, also before the introduction of the new Signet of the Eather… that is actually perfect for this build cause you will have almost always 3 clones/phantasms up, and a lot of time for “waiting and regenerate” thanks to cloaking.

If you don’t know how this build works I suggest you to try out.
Mainly is all about spamming clones, well-known about skill chain to burst with conditions, and wait in stealth while your illusions do the work. To be honest I find it very stupid to play it nicely… Not so easy to play it great – nothing compared to Shatter spec – but you don’t need to play it great to easy win every 1vs1 and survive 1vs2/3. That is my point… Prismatic Understanding + Illusionary Counter + Blurred Frenzy + Distortion… Isn’t this a bit too much survivability?
With gear mixed Rabid/Berserker you can get 2600 armour and 1100 condition damage, plus 50% crit chance and 40% crit dmg.
Phantasmal Duelist looks just so godlike.

My main is mesmer and this build makes me feel foolishly immortal in duels and 1vs2/3. My question is… I met only bad players that tried to kill me, or actually this need a big nerf? I asked some mesmer friends to help me find this out… Making them wear this build and I tried to vs em with my engineer. Frustrating. So in other words…
How to counter this?

Thanks for your help.

The build is fine. It does nothing for group fights and the stealth means you can’t really bunker well.

Some good players are able to take down such a build with some work. I think it’s good that we have such a strong build because if you look at other classes, there are some that are considered OP, easy to use but easy to win. We do need some strong mesmers there that are just solid and an actual threat and frustrating to face. Mesmer already takes a good amount of work compared to some classes, even with an “easy build”. And as said above, it doesn’t work in ALL situations. It’s great for roaming pretty much.

I’m not saying it is good for every situation. For tPvP is surely not good… I’m talking relative to wvw roamin / small fights – 1vs1, 1vs2/3, 4vs4 and such, or PvP dueling or 1vs2.
Of course a great thief vs a totally newbie mesmer with this build will win. But what about a great thief vs great mesmer? I know there are many other classes that have OP builds… this doesn’t mean it is a good thing… at all. And I really couldnt find another class OP build that works vs this one in THOSE situation I said above. This is unfair imho… But really, I’m hoping I’m wrong and I just need to “discover this way to counter it”… That is what I’m asking here. I’m totally available to try this out also in practice!

@Thedenofsin
You can’t cap or hold a point good of course. But you can stay alive for the time you need to recover and engage again… That is a very short time thanks to the Signet. This means is not good for capping (tPvP) but its very good for fighting.

The counter totally depends on what type of build the PU mesmer is running. If its phantasms then it’s all about anti phantasm summons/destroying the phantasms with extra attacks while trying to keep some sustained dps on the mesmer(with mesmer v mesmer that sustain dps is phantasms)
However condition PU Mesmers (the one you are talking about) Is very hard to counter. The reason for this is that it has the same attack power as a full condition mesmer spec. But with a insane amount of survivability. It is very hard to catch and nearly impossible to kill even if you catch it. It can be beat but depending on your build it will require a good amount of skill and inhuman like timing
Granted it will take amazing reflexes, perfect timed attacks/defenses, and that’s all assuming you have somewhat the right build.

overall I find it laughable what the skill to effectiveness ratio is to play it in comparison to beat it, and even more laughable when people defend the trait saying it’s not at all OP. Granted it is not good for spvp because of inability to capture points. However from a combat perspective, ridiculous
The trait in my opinion should be reverted back to how it originally was.

As a veteran mesmer. Playing since release, and having played PU before anet buffed, and have tested on multiple types of builds with PU after they buffed it. I have to say that PU already gives a amazing amount of survivability from the stealth alone. But that’s not the big issue. The amount of protection uptime is the issue.

On a build that reaches a certain amount of damage mitigation from toughness and other sources this traits protection up time makes those builds extremely hard to damage much less kill, that in combination with the stealth uptime can become a serious problem in terms of being able to catch, AND kill them.

Anyway about the counter against PU condition builds.
If they are running staff/scepture torch then the best defense against most of their conditions is reflects. So focus traited and or feedback. You will also need a way to counter the protection and have a good burst ready right when they come out of stealth. That being said null field is a good choice of utility. Simply because you can remove conditions from yourself, and if used skillfully will be able to rip off the Mesmers protection which will allow you the opportunity in the long run to beat the PU mesmer. But it will not be easy.

The thing you have to understand is that protection mitigates 33% of incoming damage, and that in combination with enough damage mitigation can be the deciding factor. If you attack as you usually do without focusing on removing the protection you will always be 33% behind you opponent, and that big of a % is not something to take lightly.

Another thing you have to take in to account is their attack. How they are attacking. The main thing is to focus on the Mesmers phantasms with low cool down attacks/auto attacks when the mesmer stealths. Standing there doing nothing while the mesmer is in stealth and his phantasms are attacking you is not very smart. You will also need to be very picky about when you dodge. Save the dodges for big damaging moves such as phantasm attacks and obvious mesmer combos. Dodging for nothing but a clone when the enemy cannot be targeted. is a great way to lose. Also be very mindful of your surroundings. If there is a line of sight obstruction. Utilize it.
If your timing is perfect on all your attacks while simultaneously defending against phantasm/condition attacks, and removing the protection, and other defenses of the Mesmer then maybe just maybe you will might win.

Really I think the trait was just fine before they buffed it. Was not as good as it is right now. but perfectly viable for a stealth build. After they buffed it…..well…got very idiotic. Can’t run my post PU buff stealth condition/phantasm builds anymore. Too idiotically and easy to survive/win.

Arcane Thievery works pretty well, and / or having Condition Duration food / runes.

I use Melandru Runes (-25% Condition Duration) and Leek and Poultry Soup (-36% Condition Duration) and between the two, it’s very difficult to keep Conditions on me for long.

And if they stack up, Arcane Thievery gives your target three conditions (including all of their stacks) and takes three of your target’s boons (including all stacks). It’s pretty funny snatching away someone’s Aegis, (Since Arcane Thievery is Unblockable) Swiftness, and 12 stacks of Might while sticking them with 8 Stacks of Bleeds, a long duration Poison and a bunch of Vulnerability or something.

That all said, the 20/20/30/0/0 Torch / Condition Mesmer is definitely a low-risk, easy to play, and frustrating to face setup. It’s incredibly easy to troll with, and is annoyingly dangerous if you’re unable to handle conditions. It can be beat, but not every build is going to be able to deal with it, but they can’t deal with each opponent universally either. They’ll likely just run or stall until help arrives, in which case it’s probably best to just allow discretion to be the better part of valor and chalk it up as a draw.

PU condie builds inherently rely on an active opponent. Your damage is almos exclusively based around countering or punishing attacks. Understanding that is key to countering the build.

What you don’t need to worry about too much are the phantasms. The pistol phantasm is the one potential exception, but it will still die quickly. If you are running condies though, you’ll want to kill the iMage and/or iDisenchanter quickly.

The condition application comes from clone explosions and the torment counter primarily. To avoid clone explosions, keep your distance from the clones. Don’t use cleave, or you’ll get hit. The torment counter is also pretty straightforward to avoid. Dangerous skills for it are any kind of persistent aoe or channeled attack, such as chaos storm or confusing images. Watch for the icon+block and dodge the torment.

If you can avoid the clone explosions and torment, that reduces their damage to almost nothing. Just keep pressuring the Mesmer and they will die eventually.

Now, the actual hard-counter is a well played phantasm Mesmer, because a phantasm Mesmer doesn’t have to attack. This allows them to completely avoid the offense of the PU build, and the phantasms will rip them apart.

Hey Lys!

As Sinaya and others have said, PU Memsers can indeed be beaten, but not every build will be able to handle it as well as others. Indeed, some builds will find it very difficult to down a PU condition Mesmer. But the same can be said for other build vs. build fights in the game.

I’ve played a condition PU Mesmer for quite some time albeit not of the typical 20/20/30/0/0 flavor. The PU Mesmer excels at fighting low vitality, direct damage users but has a much harder time fighting targets with strong healing/regenerative capabilities (due to lack of Poison and the mediocre damage of the PU Mesmer), high vitality, high condition damage builds, powerful condition cleansing, and (to a lesser extent) the ability of the target to reflect projectiles.

More specifically, some of the hardest fights I have are with:

Heavy Condition users: Mesmers in general, despite recent buffs, still have poor condition removal compared to other classes. Moreover, many PU Mesmers ( especially the one you described) run with full Rabid gear- leaving them further susceptible to damaging conditions. Cleansing conflagration is nice but it is not enough to deal with a dedicated condition damage user. PU Mesmers will have to decide to give up some of their utility stealth capabilities if they want to remove conditions competently in a fight. A Carrion or Dire stat user would the most dangerous opponent stat-wise for a Rabid Mesmer to fight.

High Mobility classes: Some classes can simply run away and reset when fighting a PU Mesmer. Like other Mesmers, PU users have great in combat mobility but will have a hard time running away or catching fleeing people. You do not have to commit to the playing ground the PU Mesmer wants to fight you on in fact, many problems with phantasms and clones of the PU Mesmer can be solved by finding more advantageous terrain (exploiting line of sight or simply moving far enough away that clones/phantasms reach their leash limit). If the fight isn’t going your way, you can run to a more advantageous fighting area or simply run away. The PU Mesmer will not catch you. Additionally, some of the PU’s key attacks (i.e. Confusing Images) are very sensitive to the target being within range and in front of the Mesmer. Flanking the Mesmer, running around a corner or simply dodging out of range of the attack will go a long way.

Classes that “outrange”: Even among PUs who use the Staff, a PU Mesmer needs to be in close quarters to fight opponents most optimally (to take advantage of on-death traits or staff bounces for example). Much of the trouble caused by the PUs illusions will be negated by out-ranging/killing high priority phantasms and clones before they can close in and attack you. Or better yet, you can fight out of range of the Mesmer and their illusion summons in the first place!

Classes with AI pets that lock target: Ironically, other Mesmers are one of the best counters to PU Memsers since clones and phantasms lock target once summoned and persist on that target when stealth drops. Part of the advantage of running the PU Mesmer stealth is the target drop and/or misdirection that comes with it- great against human players. However, AIs like Illusion summons (as long as they were summoned on the PU Mesmer of course) are not prone to this and will attack the PU Mesmer with impunity once their stealth drops. If the PU Mesmer knows this, they can counter play, but the fight no longer continues in their favor the longer it goes on.

Beyond all this, the best advice I can give when fighting a PU Mesmer is to be patient! If you are committing to the fight, wait for the Mesmer to present themselves, anticipate their obvious spikes ( Magic bullet +iDuelist/Confusing Images, The Prestige + Illusionary counter) and you will have a much easier time fighting them.

I’m very thankful for your answers and your time!

@Chaos
I agree with your point of view, and reflection can actually be great to counter PU since mainly the damage comes from illusions projectils. Thanks for this tip, I’ll surely try it out. However, I wonder if reflection could actually kill the PU mesmer, or just survive it and when having cd on reflection skills and make some kind of mistake, just die. :/ I still see, as you said, the OP situation thanks to PU perma protection, regen and aegis.
Plus, I tried already to killing phantasms/clone while PU mesmer is in stealth instead of just waiting… Waiting seemed stupid but actually killing illusions I kill myself with conditions, especially if I have no range/low range (thief, war, ele)… And also in the time he stealths (relative long time) with maybe a Sigil of Energy, his clone spamming is idiotic.

@Pyroatheist
Same as I just wrote to Chaos, I’m worried about killing illusions. I tried it, and didn’t work properly. But I totally agree the hardest opponent for PU mesmer is a range (maybe GS) phantasm mesmer, cause of the aggro spread and the phantasms burst when the PU mesmer show himself. I had some good fights vs a GS/sword pistol mesmer in PvP, I was almost being killed couple of times.

@Peacemaker Xeranan
I didn’t find heavy conditions user hard to kill. Necro/engi/condi thieves are generally an easy play for me. With the 20 in Domination traitline your torch skills remove conditions, and in case, I can always sacrifice Veil for the Mantra of Resolve.
Mobility classes of course can run away from me, but in a fight you want to kill your target, in PvP duels as in wvw roaming, running away doesn’t counter a build.
Outrange can be annoying but for example, vs “OP spirit ranger build”, I just move closer to em while in stealth, maybe using torch 4 for give burning as stealth finishes. It takes just a bit longer but wasn’t a way to kill PU mesmers.
Classes with AI pets that lock target. As I wrote for Pyroatheist I agree on this point, but this also works only for pets that does sustained range damage. I can easy avoid melee ranger pets and necro minions just staying far from em, they can take my clones aggro making the opponent longer to finish, but looks very like a posticipation.

I know this is the mesmer forum section, and I will try out better to counter PU mesmers as mesmer. But… what about other classes? How a thief, ranger, necro, engi, etc could counter this? Chaos just made me think about reflection – maybe with spirit weapons – guardian… But what else?
If you are not a phantasmal mesmer and you meet a PU mesmer while wvw roaming you just have to give it up? I can’t accept this!
My worries and questions were generally in game, cause I don’t play only mesmer and this build is frustrating me, I don’t find it fair. It is just me then, or actually Anet should take a look at this thread?

Pyroatheist.9031:

PU condie builds inherently rely on an active opponent. Your damage is almos exclusively based around countering or punishing attacks. Understanding that is key to countering the build.

What you don’t need to worry about too much are the phantasms. The pistol phantasm is the one potential exception, but it will still die quickly. If you are running condies though, you’ll want to kill the iMage and/or iDisenchanter quickly.

The condition application comes from clone explosions and the torment counter primarily. To avoid clone explosions, keep your distance from the clones. Don’t use cleave, or you’ll get hit. The torment counter is also pretty straightforward to avoid. Dangerous skills for it are any kind of persistent aoe or channeled attack, such as chaos storm or confusing images. Watch for the icon+block and dodge the torment.

If you can avoid the clone explosions and torment, that reduces their damage to almost nothing. Just keep pressuring the Mesmer and they will die eventually.

Now, the actual hard-counter is a well played phantasm Mesmer, because a phantasm Mesmer doesn’t have to attack. This allows them to completely avoid the offense of the PU build, and the phantasms will rip them apart.

My question about ‘clone explosion’
How do you reliably apply conditions since you rely on clone explosions? I can not shatter, because than the effect won’t proc, right?
So someone has to kill these clones ? Or you have to constantly overwrite them with new clones?
Then I wonder, how can scepter be a good weapon ? Because your clones are within a600 distance and if they die to some AoE dmg, they won’t afflict your enemy.

I am asking because I am quite new to mesmer and didn’t quite get the PU gameplay so far. Help would be appreciated

I can think of three easy counters:

• Ignore them. PU, like many thieves, are a solo build. But most PU Mesmers have no way to catch you reliably, so if you just run past them they look silly and you do something useful instead.

• Bring lots of boon removal. Null fields are especially hurting because if they SoI the buffs in team fights, you rip those, too. Plus you’re getting rid of the conditions at hte same time. Their build relies on a mix of defensive boons and stealth, take one of those and you remove most of the power.

• Speaking of which, you can also force them to end stealth. If you rely on ground targeted AEs you know they’re still being hit, and you know they want to move out of it (in most cases). They are essentially “wasting” their stealth because you still know where they are. Hopefully cleaving into them with a melee weapon or using more AEs to make sure you hit.

But really, like any 1v1 centric build, ignoring them is the most deadly counter. They aren’t helping take anything, they aren’t even making a dent in groups, they’re just praying on lone stragglers who stop to fight them.

@Assassin
You apply conditions when you replace old illusions with new ones, you apply conditions when illusions crit on their target, you apply conditions when your illusions are killed. Scepter is good mainly cause of the skill 2 block/torment and ofc extra confusion.

@Carighan
Well also if I respect this point of view, I do not agree. I am roaming, I want have fun, I want improve myself, I want prove myself… PU mesmers are so awful to fighting with that I am forced to ignore them? I say nerf PU mesmers then. I do not roam for running away from players…
Boon removal and AoE are okay I guess, but it’s too much generic. Boon removals havae cooldowns and PU gives perma boons spam, AoE can be easily evaded and torch can clean heavy conditions from them…

I would like to read a guardian, a thief, whatever, that says “Hey, I know how to counter PU, I do it this way…”.
Maybe I should move the thread in another forum section?

I find PU Mesmers difficult to kill, and impossible to die to.

I don’t know what you’re doing wrong, but seriously… stop attacking and they can’t put out any pressure. It’s a lame build.

PU mesmers can’t put out any pressure? Are you kidding me?

The entirety of their pressure comes from their blocks, and exploding their clones. And they’re the slowest class in the game.

So again, what exactly is there to kill you if you don’t kill yourself? Staff auto-attacks? You want to say they gave up torch for a weak-shooting duelist too like that makes a difference? You sound like a zergling dying to confusion/retaliation and complaining that it’s OP.

This thread says it all really, the best way to beat a PU mesmer is with a PU mesmer…
..something is wrong here

@Celeras

With gear mixed Rabid/Berserker you can get 2600 armour and 1100 condition damage, plus 50% crit chance and 40% crit dmg.

Quoting myself from the starting post.

This means that if you don’t run away and you don’t attack me I can easy kill you. Really you don’t think so?
Or you are a bunker full healing warrior or maybe meditation guard. But I’m sure also in this case, with some more time, I could be able to finish them classes spec aswell, and they won’t be able to kill me anyway. Anyway bunker spec are hard to kill for many other spec too.

And plus, generally, you won’t find any bunker playing wvw roaming, since they aren’t meant to kill but to survive.

You are actually aiming for a nerf on PU, not how to counter builds with PU.

You can contact Anet directly, tell them your stories and maybe we will get a nerf on PU on next class balance patch.

@bOgz

No. I’m honestly asking how to counter this, cause I wasn’t able to find anything that could do it.
Now I have something: the phantasm mesmer spec, maybe with focus traited and feedback. Okay. I think it is not enough.
I really hope that something else will come out from this thread… But if it won’t, ofc I think this spec should be nerfed.
Also, just to be precise, I’m not complaining about PU cause I’m dying from it – I’m a mesmer, I’m using PU – I’m complaining cause I can’t being killed and I feel idiotic playing it.

Thedenofsin.7340:

The build is fine. It does nothing for group fights and the stealth means you can’t really bunker well.

If you mean sPvP, then yeah. But in WvW small-battles it’s a totally different story. Mass Invis/condi clear mantra are both excellent in small battles for support, and stealth is one of the best (if not the best) defense mechanism you can use. People also severely undervalue the clutter/distraction clones cause with their body-blocking/general presence as well.

Carighan.6758:

• Ignore them. PU, like many thieves, are a solo build. But most PU Mesmers have no way to catch you reliably, so if you just run past them they look silly and you do something useful instead.

.. which is why many people (including me) are now running hybrid builds. They’re a little harder to run away from.

Lys.8621:

Well also if I respect this point of view, I do not agree. I am roaming, I want have fun, I want improve myself, I want prove myself… PU mesmers are so awful to fighting with that I am forced to ignore them? I say nerf PU mesmers then. I do not roam for running away from players…

While a valid point of view, WvW has to be balanced around material-centric warfare. Ultimately the goal is to “win”, that is, to accumulate more points than opposing realms. A part of this is killing off stragglers, yes. But the defence is not to be a better 1-v-1 player and smash the highwayman (that can work, but is rather risky from a strategic PoV), rather it is to make the enemy realm waste players on lurking for 1v1 fights but never presenting them any, using your time towards victory points. Elsewhere.

As such, 1v1 power – which already cannot be balanced for in sPvP, due to the nature of RPG combat (this is as true in GW2 as it was in WoW or DAoC, btw :P – really cannot constitute a major balance goal.
It has to be in there somewhere, yes. Otherwise a single PU Mesmer could solo a group of 10 players trying to take a tower.

But as long as they cannot change the outcome of WvW to a significant degree, they’re hardly a balance concern. Plus just as with 1v1 Thieves, PU Mesmers are really weak when not in their element. Hence ignoring them is so strong: It forces them to play a mode of combat which they are bad at (or leave WvW, which helps your realm).

Mind you, I don’t understand the obsession with duelling-PvP. Or rather I don’t understand it in the context of a MMORPG, especially once which was loudly heralded as being about mass-warfare from the get-go.
I really hope that the devs won’t make the mistake WoW did with it’s 2v2 arena, because long term it caused all kinds of balance issues by forcing the devs’ hands. I’d hate to see GW2’s class system go down the drain as a result of 1v1 balance becoming a dev focus.

If you’re relying on using direct damage you’ll never win. High toughness combined with almost 100 percent uptime of protection means the damage they take will be tiny.

You’re only hope is to be a high toughness/condition build yourself. So fight cheese with cheese and claim a hollow feeling victory afterwards. As a thief I just run past and leave them alone, it’s a pointless exercise. Or i run a supremely cheap no skill condition spamming pistol/dagger spec.

Abilities as strong as PU should have internal timers.

One interesting point: Why is a toughness/condition build “cheese”? Just because it’s not the way you play?
I find zerker builds to be pretty cheesy, game design shouldn’t allow you to get away with not caring about your defensive stats. <— not more wrong than your position

phaeris.7604:

Abilities as strong as PU should have internal timers.

It does, 1s on each buff proc, and the stealth moves themselves have CDs, too. We’re not thieves who can spam stealth-giving moves, you know? :P

Carighan.6758:

One interesting point: Why is a toughness/condition build “cheese”? Just because it’s not the way you play?
I find zerker builds to be pretty cheesy, game design shouldn’t allow you to get away with not caring about your defensive stats. <— not more wrong than your position

Easy to play and extremely rewarding = Cheese

K U T M.4539:

Easy to play and extremely rewarding = Cheese

Easy to play and extremely rewarding = smart.

Carighan.6758:

One interesting point: Why is a toughness/condition build “cheese”? Just because it’s not the way you play?

Pretty much. I ignore all of these labels now and play what I want.

I will never use exploits but I also won’t handicap myself by not using legitimate skills and builds simply to meet some other person’s arbitrary ideas about what “should” be used.

I only wish PU mesmers were as impossible to kill as some claim they are. When I face good players, I die, period. When I face bad ones, I don’t. That’s how it should be. I’m sure when I get better, I’ll die less and kill more. And I’m also sure that by the time I get better, the meta will change.

K U T M.4539:

Easy to play and extremely rewarding = Cheese

Makes no sense. If I have two equivalent options to fight, one being efficient (where both easier difficulty / less chance of mistake and more raw power increase efficiency) and one less so, then sorry, speccing the non-efficient one is called stupid

So it’s not “Normal Build” vs “Cheese Build” from what you describe.
It’s “Stupid Build” vs “Normal Build”.

Now as I said above, PU is sadly hyper-specialized, and falls apart when out of its element. Which is why I don’t actually see where it’s that efficient to play. Sure it’s awesome for 1v1. Well great, so I can win fights which are marginally useful at best.
Ofc, having a build which is absolutely terrible at 1v1 situations is bad too, because there’s always a chance that you get singled out.
But PU is hardly a game-changer in power. Never seen a keep fall to the combined power of Mass Invisibility, for example. :P

Qaelyn.7612:

K U T M.4539:

Easy to play and extremely rewarding = Cheese

Easy to play and extremely rewarding = smart.

Easy to play and extremely rewarding = Cheese

Lys.8621:

Easy to play and extremely rewarding = Cheese

You’re entitled to your opinion. I’m still going to use whatever works best to kill you as quickly as possible.

You can adapt to it, or complain about it on the forums, whichever you find more effective.

Carighan.6758:

One interesting point: Why is a toughness/condition build “cheese”? Just because it’s not the way you play?
I find zerker builds to be pretty cheesy, game design shouldn’t allow you to get away with not caring about your defensive stats. <— not more wrong than your position

phaeris.7604:

Abilities as strong as PU should have internal timers.

It does, 1s on each buff proc, and the stealth moves themselves have CDs, too. We’re not thieves who can spam stealth-giving moves, you know? :P

Talking about thieves – that had be nerfed so far for those situation. They can’t fight PU mesmers, I think. Please if you are a thief and you can, shout it out.
Internal cd for PU is laughable.

The problem I have with PU balance complaints is that in the end they all focus around the buffs the Mesmer gets and the resulting outlasting game.

Which is neither unique nor actually efficient unless your strategic plan hinges on killing that Mesmer. Again: That’s why skipping them is so strong, it leaves them bereft (bereaved?) of their only angle of attack. They rely on their staying power and that allowing them to bring their conditions to bear.

In the grand scheme of things this is a rather frail setup, and in fact one needing a buff (but then in turn a 1v1 nerf, yes). Because PU is terrible in larger situations as it doesn’t properly work, plus “Mass” Invisibility only affects 5 people. If the buffs were shared to everyone affected by Veil/MI, we’d be talking some group power. Ofc it’d have to be weaker then, yes.

But right now the build is essentially a 1v1 highwayman setup. as I said, those are important to a degree, but very easy to circumvent by denying the enemy combat. They rely on players being rabid for “1v1 action”, though. Like I said, I don’t get it. I’d rather win. :P

(important addendum: I don’t play PU, because while it was quite interesting, I love triple-swords too much from a style-perspective)

Lys.8621:

@Celeras

With gear mixed Rabid/Berserker you can get 2600 armour and 1100 condition damage, plus 50% crit chance and 40% crit dmg.

Quoting myself from the starting post.

This means that if you don’t run away and you don’t attack me I can easy kill you. Really you don’t think so?
Or you are a bunker full healing warrior or maybe meditation guard. But I’m sure also in this case, with some more time, I could be able to finish them classes spec aswell, and they won’t be able to kill me anyway. Anyway bunker spec are hard to kill for many other spec too.

And plus, generally, you won’t find any bunker playing wvw roaming, since they aren’t meant to kill but to survive.

Can you read? Who said anything about bunkers?

Celeras.4980:

The entirety of their pressure comes from their blocks, and exploding their clones. And they’re the slowest class in the game.

So again, what exactly is there to kill you if you don’t kill yourself? Staff auto-attacks? You want to say they gave up torch for a weak-shooting duelist too like that makes a difference? You sound like a zergling dying to confusion/retaliation and complaining that it’s OP.

You can take any class, only use defensive abilities (ie: no movement to abuse their horrible slowness), and run from a PU Mesmer indefinitely. They will not be able to kill you, because they don’t put out enough pressure without clones dying/confusion/torment blocks.

That’s an open challenge, btw.

Yes I can read, thank you for caring. You didn’t talk about bunkers, I did, cause you said that PU mesmers can’t put out pressure. They can if you are not bunker.
So I already said, of course you can run away from a PU mesmer. The point is that I don’t want to. Being forced to run away from a fight without either trying is not fair.

But I understand the MMORPG point of view, I understand what you said about the balance focusing. I can respect that and that’s all… But don’t tell me this build is not OP, is not cheese, or such. You can’t properly fight it and if you are not a phantasm spec, you can always leave the fight. If I am wrong, I ask again, how can you counter – I mean in other words how can you kill – a PU mesmer?

Qaelyn.7612:

Lys.8621:

Easy to play and extremely rewarding = Cheese

You’re entitled to your opinion. I’m still going to use whatever works best to kill you as quickly as possible.

You can adapt to it, or complain about it on the forums, whichever you find more effective.

I’ve already adapted. Doesn’t make the build any less boring to fight.

Lys.8621:

If I am wrong, I ask again, how can you counter – I mean in other words how can you kill – a PU mesmer?

Very easily, but you have to let go of the idea that any developer worth their paycheck would consider 1v1 the end-goal of RPG balance. Because it never is, and that’s a good thing. Dev work in that regard is a careful balance if making the players think you care about 1v1 balance, while effectively doing as little for it as possible (because it’s a Bad Idea™).

So a PU Mesmer falters by subjecting them to a team fight. I know this is what I usually say in regards to Phantasm Mesmers (who crash and burn very hard in team fights due to the AE slaughtering their main source of damage), but here the problem is that the amount of effects flying around is too much. If there’s multiple sources of buffs and conditions, the PU Mesmer no longer has a significant advantage. Their main power in a team fight is boon sharing, and while it’s good (see the PvE builds), it doesn’t hold up to the more offence-oriented kill-trains who still run around with nearly full buffs.

And that’s the problem. PU Mesmers are strong. In a game-mode we as the players constructed. There’s no 1v1 PvP.

Carighan.6758:

Lys.8621:

If I am wrong, I ask again, how can you counter – I mean in other words how can you kill – a PU mesmer?

Very easily, but you have to let go of the idea that any developer worth their paycheck would consider 1v1 the end-goal of RPG balance. Because it never is, and that’s a good thing. Dev work in that regard is a careful balance if making the players think you care about 1v1 balance, while effectively doing as little for it as possible (because it’s a Bad Idea™).

So a PU Mesmer falters by subjecting them to a team fight. I know this is what I usually say in regards to Phantasm Mesmers (who crash and burn very hard in team fights due to the AE slaughtering their main source of damage), but here the problem is that the amount of effects flying around is too much. If there’s multiple sources of buffs and conditions, the PU Mesmer no longer has a significant advantage. Their main power in a team fight is boon sharing, and while it’s good (see the PvE builds), it doesn’t hold up to the more offence-oriented kill-trains who still run around with nearly full buffs.

And that’s the problem. PU Mesmers are strong. In a game-mode we as the players constructed. There’s no 1v1 PvP.

I feel I’m repeating myself.
I’m not talking mainly as duels situation. I’m talking about roaming, that is 1vs1 or 1vs2/3 or 2/5vs2/5 situations.
I feel idiotic killing 1vs2 almost every class i meet and always survive and help finish/stomping in small group fights without even feel in danger.
You say then the mainly thoughts for an MMORPG aren’t about 1vs1 and/or roaming experience. Okay. I can understand it, but I’m not sure it is a good thing – I’m not a dev tho.

K U T M.4539:

I’ve already adapted. Doesn’t make the build any less boring to fight.

“Boring” — just as meaningless as “cheese”.

Nobody really cares, sorry, because there’s not a single profession or build that someone doesn’t complain about as being “boring”.

Carighan.6758:

And that’s the problem. PU Mesmers are strong. In a game-mode we as the players constructed. There’s no 1v1 PvP.

Er, what? A large percentage of the time in PvP matches is spent 1v1 or maybe 1v2. PU mesmers do well there when they are good.

ETA: Maybe you mean WvW. I don’t have as much experience there but seems small fights happen there a lot too once away from the “zerg”.

Celeras.4980:

You can take any class, only use defensive abilities (ie: no movement to abuse their horrible slowness), and run from a PU Mesmer indefinitely. They will not be able to kill you, because they don’t put out enough pressure without clones dying/confusion/torment blocks.

That’s an open challenge, btw.

I think you haven’t played against a very wide variety of PU mesmers. They aren’t all scepter/torch/staff Blackwater builds. And while being mobile as a mesmer has a cost, it’s doable if it’s a priority.

This has been the best build for a while now. I dueled a lot of mesmers with this build. I lost a lot of those duels. The only way after much trying I found I can beat one is use a lock-down/shatter build and hope that you land a stun at the start of the fight and burst down his health right away. Force him into defense mode.

Edit: I have joined the dark side myself. The old saying if you can’t beat them join them.

Doesn’t mean it’s smart. You just want to win easily. Zerker/glass setups are high risk high return. Cheese setups are low risk/high return.

It’s the reason we saw so many hammer/bow warriors. And why we see perplexity spamming engineers. People just want to play with builds that are currently very strong and give the lowest risk/highest reward ratio, despite how boring the mechanic involved is.

You can keep telling yourself that ’It’s stupid not to play the easiest spec.‘, maybe in the overall scheme of things it isn’t, but you won’t really stand out as anything different, you’ll just be PU mesmer number 12213. If that floats your boat then more power to you.

Well, if you’re playing to win then there’s never a reason to not play the most efficient build. Ofc, if everyone were to play build X and you had build Y which counters it, then you’d ofc stay with that (even if it’s useless at anything else, there’s plenty targets around).

But, are you playing to win?
Because if you’re not, then there’s absolutely no problem with playing a more complex or weaker build. Many players – myself included actually – are motivated by playing “the underdog”. Currently specced for daze-lockdown with 30 Dom + 6/6 Mesmer, btw.

Just that in that case, balance discussions are a bit… problematic. And the better build isn’t cheese, it’s stronger. Hence if you want to win more on average, you play it. It’s not silly or boring or cheesy to spec the build, it’s efficient. It lets you win more. If winning is your motivation it’s the only sensible thing (exception like mentioned first apply ofc, but they’d change what the most efficient build is).

phaeris.7604:

You can keep telling yourself that ’It’s stupid not to play the easiest spec.‘, maybe in the overall scheme of things it isn’t, but you won’t really stand out as anything different, you’ll just be PU mesmer number 12213. If that floats your boat then more power to you.

One trait doesn’t define a build. Everyone puts their own unique spin on a build concept by how they adjust and play it.

And the idea that someone shouldn’t play something they enjoy because others also play it is just a manufactured contrivance.

There’s nothing wrong with people wanting to play a more difficult build because they enjoy the challenge. Where the line is crossed is when those people then denigrate other builds as “cheese”. In the end, it’s just a rather childish combination of elitism and peer pressure.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Maximised-Hybrid-Phantasm-Build-Roaming/first

Is this a good build to counter “Condi PU”?

Guys, if you are talking about PU being ‘cheese/stupid/boring’, try getting a hambow warrior. I created one just to test it and I was literally spamming 12345 and it was amazing how many people were dying from it. This was just ridiculous given the fact I had no experience playing a warrior.
Now, getting back to countering PU, as it was mentioned in this thread, heavy condo builds (like condo necros, engis, etc) can easily counter PU builds, as they have relatively low condi removal, also lockdown mesmers do a good job killing them. One thing to try is actually play a PU mesmer, know the strategy and then having that knowledge counter it. You will know how the stealth works, for how long, what is the opponent doing while he is in stealth, which way is he probably heading to and for what purpose and think of ways you can counter it. So being one step ahead is very helpful.
Moreover, to repeat what has already been said, this build is less frustrating to play against as you can COMPLETELY IGNORE it.
Also, if you haven’t noticed, this patch introduced some ways to counter the general condi meta. And PU’s being generally condi build take the hit.

G’luck!

Qaelyn.7612:

Lys.8621:

Easy to play and extremely rewarding = Cheese

You’re entitled to your opinion. I’m still going to use whatever works best to kill you as quickly as possible.

You can adapt to it, or complain about it on the forums, whichever you find more effective.

Best post in this whole thread right here.

This exemplifies the play style of someone who wants to win, not someone who wants to complain, and that is the difference.

Carighan.6758:

In the grand scheme of things this is a rather frail setup, and in fact one needing a buff (but then in turn a 1v1 nerf, yes). Because PU is terrible in larger situations as it doesn’t properly work, plus “Mass” Invisibility only affects 5 people. If the buffs were shared to everyone affected by Veil/MI, we’d be talking some group power. Ofc it’d have to be weaker then, yes

Just wanted to point out, Mass Invis affects 10 people, not 5.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Qaelyn.7612:

Lys.8621:

Easy to play and extremely rewarding = Cheese

You’re entitled to your opinion. I’m still going to use whatever works best to kill you as quickly as possible.

You can adapt to it, or complain about it on the forums, whichever you find more effective.

Best post in this whole thread right here.

This exemplifies the play style of someone who wants to win, not someone who wants to complain, and that is the difference.

Ha, the whole ‘adapt rule’ (or as people more commonly know it L2P!!) was what all the thieves used to write when they could insta-gib people with the old abilities, or when stealth had no reveal debuff so you could kill someone and stay stealthed almost permanently.

Or when people used to complain about crossfire spam, rangers were all like ‘hey! just adapt to it!!’

Or when in beta guardians were nigh unkillable?…..

When people use the L2P argument it generally means something is pretty kitten ed strong (cough hambow pre patch cough).

phaeris.7604:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Qaelyn.7612:

Lys.8621:

Easy to play and extremely rewarding = Cheese

You’re entitled to your opinion. I’m still going to use whatever works best to kill you as quickly as possible.

You can adapt to it, or complain about it on the forums, whichever you find more effective.

Best post in this whole thread right here.

This exemplifies the play style of someone who wants to win, not someone who wants to complain, and that is the difference.

Ha, the whole ‘adapt rule’ (or as people more commonly know it L2P!!) was what all the thieves used to write when they could insta-gib people with the old abilities, or when stealth had no reveal debuff so you could kill someone and stay stealthed almost permanently.

Or when people used to complain about crossfire spam, rangers were all like ‘hey! just adapt to it!!’

Or when in beta guardians were nigh unkillable?…..

When people use the L2P argument it generally means something is pretty kitten ed strong (cough hambow pre patch cough).

Nothing was changed about the old abilities on thief, you can still instagib people, but it’s fallen out of favor because….gasp people adapted and learned to counter it.

When stealth had no reveal debuff was still practically the beginning of the betas. Nobody was saying ‘l2p’….everyone was still learning at that point.

Since when did anyone ever complain about crossfire spam? Seriously now.

Guardians back in beta could be pretty tanky, but again…beta is beta.

Pre-patch hambow was just as pathetic as post-patch hambow is now. Warrior is hardcountered by mesmer, that’s just the way the game works. Perhaps other classes have a valid place to complain about warriors, but not mesmers.

Similarly, I don’t complain about PU condition mesmers. I know how to counter them, so I do.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Best post in this whole thread right here.

This exemplifies the play style of someone who wants to win, not someone who wants to complain, and that is the difference.

Well, I started out in the complaining camp. But I realized A. it’s pointless B. everyone complains about everything C. if I can’t beat something then I need to learn how to play against it better, and possibly try it myself because it works.

phaeris.7604:

When people use the L2P argument it generally means something is pretty kitten ed strong (cough hambow pre patch cough).

I’m not saying “L2P”, and neither is Pyro. What we’re saying is “this is the game as it is now, make the best of it, rather than crippling yourself and then complaining that you’re crippled.” The two are not the same.

Yes, it would be better if the classes were perfectly balanced. But they’re not, and never will be.

Hmm, nothing changed about the old abilities?

so C+D didn’t have 33 percent of its damage removed?

The mug nerf?

Heartseeker damage nerf?

Signet nerf?

…So yes, you’re basically correct, no abilities at all recieved any changes…

phaeris.7604:

Hmm, nothing changed about the old abilities?

so C+D didn’t have 33 percent of its damage removed?

The mug nerf?

Heartseeker damage nerf?

Signet nerf?

…So yes, you’re basically correct, no abilities at all recieved any changes…

People still did the combo after the CnD nerf.

The signet change ultimately increased the damage from the combo, not decreased, if you actually run the numbers.

The mug change was the only nerf that actually affected the combo, but ultimately mug was only roughly 10%-20% of the total damage in the combo, making that nerf comparatively small to the rest of it.

Heartseeker is not part of the combo, and was not nerfed when used after this combo was executed. It was nerfed at high hp levels.