Guild Wars 2

I use double ranged shatter, and while I haven’t mastered it yet, I’m still pretty decent and can deal with most threats. Similar to what metabattle says though, I tend to get hard countered by most thieves. Any advice on how to deal with them?

Hi DrDivine

I am not a pro, first of all. I started to play PvP recently (after 1000h in PvE).
Answering your question, because sometimes I feel the same struggle with thieves, I try to use Distortion shattering clones from dodges, and at the same time use phantasms and clones from Staff and Greatsword.
Try to use Decoy to gain some space to think the next move and avoid attacks.

Lets hear what our friends have to say

Good luck

IMHO, until Consume Plasma gets changed, Mesmer’s will always struggle with theives.

Any decent thief, who is patient and knows his stuff, will counter a mesmer. The only thieves I’ve beaten were bad ones.

S/D thief hard counter us. In pvp I find you have to burst and burst in no time should you play defence vs a thief. Shatter as soon as he come out of stealth don’t leave any clones for him to CnD off.

in WvW the key is kite keep moving to screw up their shadow step .

But like the above post says a good thief will own you don’t be discouraged because there are a LOT of bad thieves out there

The distance advantage of double shatter, is negated by the thief’s mobility. Maintaining constant pressure, and never letting up, might be the best option. Daze them before they can CnD. A thief can easily disengage to recover before leaping back in the fight, and it doesn’t take long to recover.

If you yourself maintain a good distance away from the thief, a thief can double the distance away from you when they choose to disengage. Fighting in a small area will reduce the thief’s mobility, while you can still pile shatters on them.

Unfortunately, if you’re playing DPS Shatter, you have to wait for him to make the opening move and time your shatters PERFECTLY. It’s an uphill battle even if you do everything right… Dps phantasms stand a bit of a better chance, but not much, because there isn’t enough burst.

Lockdown Mesmers are particularly well-off against thieves, but can still be cut down quickly if you fly through your cool downs.

Condition Mesmers shouldn’t have any problems with thieves. You typically should have enough toughness to be aggressive. Clone-death traits kill thieves. So does torment.

I’ll leave the others to help you with shatter dps as I’m sure they can offer better advice than I.

Arikyali.5804:

The distance advantage of double shatter, is negated by the thief’s mobility. Maintaining constant pressure, and never letting up, might be the best option. Daze them before they can CnD. A thief can easily disengage to recover before leaping back in the fight, and it doesn’t take long to recover.

If you yourself maintain a good distance away from the thief, a thief can double the distance away from you when they choose to disengage. Fighting in a small area will reduce the thief’s mobility, while you can still pile shatters on them.

Arikyali pretty much nailed it.

As someone who mains Thief and also loves Mesmer, I’m not so sure there’s much you can do. I feel like I do better kittenter than I do Lockdown(but that might be because I just started playing Lockdown a couple days ago) , especially the S/D thieves. The times I usually can beat other Thieves on my Mesmer is opening from range with GS 4 > 2 > Dodge > Diversion Shatter > Mind Stab and go from there.

The issue is most thieves (myself included) run Infiltrator’s Signet lately along with Signet of Agility, Shadowstep, or Shadow Refuge thrown in, possibly a few others like Blinding Powder. S/D with at least 3 points into Acrobatics has 3 dodges, plus Signet of Agility for full endurance + condition cleanse, Flanking Strikes/Disabling Shot (SB3). That’s a lot of dodges to negate Mind Wrack, Diversion, Signet of Dominance, Mantra of Distraction, iLeap/Swap, or dodge Phantasm Damage, etc.

Mass Invisibility + Decoy doesnt matter when we thieves can CnD off clones, Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, or for D/P Black Powder+Heartseeker through the smoke field. Even with that, your Decoy/MI stealth will wear off way before a stacked Shadow Refuge unless you can Illusionary Wave them out with GS5.

Plus there’s the gap closers of Steal, Infy Signet, Shadowstep. All in all there’s just too many things that counter what little stealth and mobility Mesmers have, and then there are dodges for everything else.

I would suggest the opening I mentioned first, Diversion should some good damage on them in the opening, unless they are already fighting someone else, in which case they will probably blow up instantly, lol.

If they stealth, try dodge rolling when you expect a Backstab/Tactical Strike to proc your clone on dodge, and it might screw them up hitting a clone and getting revealed for 4 seconds.

Go back to MetaBattle and learn the Phase Retreat spots, the more gap closers they have to blow the better you’ll be able to (eventually) kite. As well as the Lord Helseth video on kiting with Staff. This is just great knowledge to know all around vs anything really.

Use Illusionary Wave/Chaos Storm to stop thieves from being able to get into stealth through BP+HS, and possibly follow up with your shatters after the knockdown.

Illusionary Wave can knock them out of Shadow Refuge which instantly gives revealed the moment they are knocked out of the SR area. Chaos Storm is good if they (or anyone really) is trying to revive someone downed on top of Shadow Refuge.

Lockdown Mesmers are particularly well-off against thieves, but can still be cut down quickly if you fly through your cool downs.

There were similar comments in the “Shatter Vs Lockdown” thread and I think this is misleading. If you are having better success against thieves in a lockdown spec, it probably has more to do with your weapon selection than the lockdown traits.

Most lockdown builds usually run sword/focus & GS or Staff. I think most people would agree that staff is the best weapon we have against thieves. Focus would be a close second. The push/pull that focus provides can help take thieves out of their rhythm and the Illusionary Wave or Chaos Storm on top of Shadow Refuge negates what their trying to accomplish as well. This gives a small opening to deliver a shatter or an opportunity for escape.

Because of Thief’s Initiative system, they are pretty much immune to daze. Also, “Consume Plasma”, the ability that thieves steal from Mesmer’s gives them 10 seconds of EVERY BOON, (yes ALL of them including STABILITY) So “interrupting” a thief is extremely lucky, which are the requirement for standard lockdown traits: CI, BI and Halting Strike. So saying Lockdown specs can handle Thieves is a little far fetched. IMHO.

SlimChance.6593:

So saying Lockdown specs can handle Thieves is a little far fetched. IMHO.

It’s not too far off actually, I wouldn’t call it a “hard counter” to thieves though. It’s definitely about the same difficulty on S/D now that they changed how flanking strike works (they’ll just evade in place), but there are more options to deal with flanking strike like blinds, dodges, and blocks (doesn’t matter too much with mesmer though). On any other set, interrupting their heartseeker through blackpowder is a big oh crap moment for the thief and putting immob on top of that is an even bigger oh crap moment. Also shatter Mesmer has absolutely zero shot against S/P without mantra of distraction.

The big crux of the matter is that d/p has more stealth than mesmers, and S/x has more ports.

MailMail.6534:

Condition Mesmers shouldn’t have any problems with thieves. You typically should have enough toughness to be aggressive. Clone-death traits kill thieves. So does torment.

Emphasize on shatter condition, torment,confusion and burn is a deadly mix especially to the conquest thieves(no SA) even s/d.

I will advice you based on almost all my experiences. I used to have A LOT of trouble with thieves, but nowadays it has been pretty easy to beat them because I learned that they’re more desperate to kill you than you to kill them.

Usually a Thief will start with Basilisk Venon to get some free damage on you. Here you have to options to avoid the Venon proc:

1 = Time the distance between you and him for Steal + Venon proc, so when he gets the gap you Dodge and make him miss.

or

2 = If he procs the venon on you, use Decoy and immediately get some distance from the Thief to avoid to get hit.

After that you have another two options. 1 – You can try to set up GS damage on him + Shatter 2 – Use Diversion to proc Halting Strike because he will be auto attacking like a maniac to kill you and rotate your skills on him.

I prefer to use Diversion, so I have more time to quickly set up my rotation and Shatter on him (even if he gets invis, you can always come closer to where he disappeared and press F1 since shatter has AoE damage). At this point, or the Thief will be at low HP (almost death) and will burn some cooldowns, or he will dodge some of the dmg and will still burn cooldowns to set up another engage. If hes dying… well, I usually create some clones and F2 + GS AA to finish him.

If he stills alive with moderate/high hp, I change to staff and play defensively till my cooldowns are over while I try to avoid the Thief at all costs and let staff clones passively damage him with conditions. I use phase retreat when hes getting closer or if he gets on top of me with gap closes , and land Chaos Storm only to punish him when I’m sure he will jump on me to autoatck. If I manage to keep some pressure and low his HP, I positionate my clones again to F1 on him, then change to GS and, or F3 on him to get a free target, or start all GS rotation and hope everything hits him and then F3 to maybe proc Halting Strike and get a free target to damage with F2.

Sometimes I mess up everything and have to play very defensively, so I keep kitting the Thief/use Mass Invis and use some of the blink/phase retreat spots to get some advantage and extra time to plan what to do next.

But, well, it’s my personal experience playing against Thieves. It sometimes works, but sometimes I get bursted so quickly that I can’t even react or sometimes I do everything differently. The thing is, you must use Diversion when the Thief gets on top of you at the start/middle/end of the fight because they will be desperately to kill you and will keep auto atacking or using skills. The “timing” to know when to do this comes, well, when you play against Thieves and get used to their basic rotations.

Oh, and use F4/Blink/Decoy just as Panic Buttons.

And watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tcjVz12Ago

d/p thieves – when he use bp use gap closer and gs5 to push him back from stealth. then just shatter or he will just run with ss or sr
s/d thieves – more harder and will put pressure on you with AA so use diversion to disrupt thier rotation time your GS5 when he use sword#3 to drain ini from him.
staff works better then sword with them as immobilize dont work on these guys
d/d – can be harder as they cnd on your clones so make sure to shatter always on a perfect timing. ut if they are patient with cnd and bs on you try to use confusion on them to panic them a bit
for me they are harder if i met good ones or if they jump on me unaware

p/d-condi thiefs are the biggest problem from my personal experiences. Especially if they know how to time their venoms well. I bring null field with me always in pvp in case i meet a condi necro/engi/thief.
The best way to counter them (in my opinion) is to stealth when they stealth. Decoy when they initially stealth and build up your illuions. then when you both unstealth as the same time blink and shatter ontop of them. If theyre zerker theyre going to be downed. If theyre condi with dire stats let them use up their venoms on you and drop null field and STAY INSIDE while your inside null field theyre practically powerless for about 6 seconds. Take advantage of your range like what Arikyali.5804 said. I save f4 for emergencies, because im running illusionary persona ill always have at least 1sec for an escape.

SlimChance.6593:

IMHO, until Consume Plasma gets changed, Mesmer’s will always struggle with theives.

Any decent thief, who is patient and knows his stuff, will counter a mesmer. The only thieves I’ve beaten were bad ones.

Mimic!

But even though, I still think Consume Plasma is a little too strong. And you’ll have to carry mimic around all the time.

Martial.4916:

SlimChance.6593:

IMHO, until Consume Plasma gets changed, Mesmer’s will always struggle with theives.

Any decent thief, who is patient and knows his stuff, will counter a mesmer. The only thieves I’ve beaten were bad ones.

Mimic!

But even though, I still think Consume Plasma is a little too strong. And you’ll have to carry mimic around all the time.

And consume plasma is on a 30% lower cd than mimic.

Fay.2357:

And consume plasma is on a 30% lower cd than mimic.

That is upsetting. However it means we’ll have to beat them before 35s is up.

Also, I remember a time when players can get all boons when activating an elite (Rune of Lyssa). That has changed. Maybe that Rune was overpowered since we can transfer all our boons to our teammates. But even though, consume plasma is a little too strong. I don’t think it should be all boons; I think it should be key boons that a thief needs to fight against a Mesmer.

Hmm. Or we can keep it this way so we’ll use mimic to grab those boons and use signet of inspiration to give them to everyone in our party (every time a thief uses steal on us). Maybe that’s what we’re supposed to do in order to counter it.

Just to clarify, steal is 21 seconds cooldown. Not consume plasma. Mimic is 30 seconds (24 traited). It’s not consume plasma that has a short cooldown, it’s steal.

Thief pvp, the stolen skill isn’t used right away. Steal is valued for more than just gaining boons off a mesmer – It’s an important gap closer, and utilizes whatever it is traited for. (daze, inflict poison, stealth, recharge utilities, rips boons, etc.)

Using consume plasma (and all other steal skills) are extremely situational. Do I want to free up my steal skill for a gap closer? Do I want to save it later for an efficient burst? Or do I just want to get rid of it and steal off this other class for a more preferable item?

Mimic isn’t a must-have while fighting against a thief. And if you do carry it, I’m fairly sure you can safely copy off the boons each time from the thief. I may hold Consume Plasma for longer than the 21 seconds.

Imho, I don’t think consume plasma is OP. I get a bit defensive when I hear any consideration of a nerf on the thief.

and Lyssa runes? Those were nerfed because it was discovered how useful they were on short cooldown skills. Basilisk venom is on a 40 second cooldown, and procs when applying the venom to the weapon. A thief can dish out a generous burst while the enemy is stunned. Consume plasma can still be countered/avoided.

Arikyali.5804:

Imho, I don’t think consume plasma is OP. I get a bit defensive when I hear any consideration of a nerf on the thief.

Yes, getting a free every boon in the game for 10 seconds stim when fighting a mesmer is definitely balanced and fair. This makes sense. Lots of sense. Definitely. For sure. It is definitely necessary and important for thieves when fighting mesmers. There is no way this could be even slightly unbalanced at all.

Hm, lets see. Just for kicks, lets look at what steal does when fighting a mesmer in a normal thief build.

Steal (Instant cast, 20s cd, 900 range)

1. Shadowstep to target
2. Gain 2 initiative
3. 10s poison
4. AOE 10s Fury, Might, Swiftness
5. AOE 10s Vigor
6. Steal 2 boons prioritizing stability, share boons to allies
7. 1s Daze
8. 10 additional seconds of every boon in the game.

Yes, this is obviously balanced and far.

I’ve found that in a 1v1, there’s not generally much you can do. Running PU helps take some of the pressure off and give you a chance to recover, but it doesn’t give the damage you need. The best thing is to a learn to play thief yourself. It makes it easier to understand their rotation and predict their moves, and to counter accordingly.

Shatter is generally your best bet. Crowd control and conditions are a bit difficult to shake on thief, since they rely so heavily on staying mobile. Any way you can pull, knock down, cripple, immobilize, etc. will help a lot. Your 3 on sword, 4 on focus, 5 on greatsword, 2 on scepter (for the block/torment), anything that plays off their mobility.

Some traits such as crippling dissipation help as well. That way if you can’t shatter before they cloak and dagger off one of your clones, it’ll generally die and provide a short cripple. Combine this with multiple clones/phantasms—it gets a little tricky and forces them to use stealth and gap closers that they normally wouldn’t have to. You want them to burn through skills for mobility and get your burst damage off before they have a chance to recover.

But there’s no real “hard counter” for thief. Mastering your class to where you’re comfortable in any situation is important in cases like this.

One last thing to keep in mind if you’re playing PU or using a lot of stealth—always try and delay your stealth until 1. you absolutely need it or 2. 1-2 seconds AFTER they stealth. It’s better to let them get in the openers and be more reactive than aggressive starting off, since you’ll be fighting an uphill battle. Only after you’ve drawn it out long enough that they’ve used up some cooldowns do you want to start playing aggressively.

Fay.2357:

Steal (Instant cast, 20s cd, 900 range)

1. Shadowstep to target
2. Gain 2 initiative
3. 10s poison
4. AOE 10s Fury, Might, Swiftness
5. AOE 10s Vigor
6. Steal 2 boons prioritizing stability, share boons to allies
7. 1s Daze
8. 10 additional seconds of every boon in the game.

Yes, this is obviously balanced and far.

You forgot ~2k heal and ~2k damage. Of course, most of these effects only apply when the steal lands. That’s beside the point though. With the exception of the stolen ability, steal does the same thing to every class. Your gripe seems to be against steal in general.

Consume plasma is incredibly strong in 1v1 scenarios against mesmers, but the game isn’t balanced around 1v1’s. That particular stolen ability doesn’t offer much in the way of team play and is usually used as a defensive maneuver.

mango.9267:

Consume plasma is incredibly strong in 1v1 scenarios against mesmers, but the game isn’t balanced around 1v1’s. That particular stolen ability doesn’t offer much in the way of team play and is usually used as a defensive maneuver.

Are you kidding me? Please try and explain how gaining every boon in the game for 10s doesn’t contribute fantastically to the thief role in a team? It allows the thief to hit harder, move faster, and have more defense while performing their main role of chasing down and eliminating a target.

Mango said it before me. The game isn’t designed for 1v1 , and consume plasma isn’t as helpful in team fights. (Edit: because gaining boons isn’t reliable. Thieves focus more on mobility conditions, than relying on boons. Usually you consume plasma because there’s one particular boon you need badly.)

Fay, 6/8 of your points require traits. Yes, those are the popular ones, but they are glued into the build. Whatever advantage you pick up in a trait, you have to sacrifice for not taking another. If steal doesn’t land, you don’t get any benefits.

Is 10 seconds of boons really that OP? Elementalists can gain boons like nobody’s business. Guardians can stack might without fields or finishers. And the boons can still be stolen, ripped, or copied. Heck, Shattered Concentration and arcane thievery remove boons. And the only stability a thief has comes from an elite skill with a 90 second cooldown. Any other source of stability has to come from somewhere else.

Thieves aren’t OP. Mesmers aren’t OP. Every class is OP.

Arikyali.5804:

Mango said it before me. The game isn’t designed for 1v1 , and consume plasma isn’t as helpful in team fights. (Edit: because gaining boons isn’t reliable. Thieves focus more on mobility conditions, than relying on boons. Usually you consume plasma because there’s one particular boon you need badly.)

Fay, 6/8 of your points require traits. Yes, those are the popular ones, but they are glued into the build. Whatever advantage you pick up in a trait, you have to sacrifice for not taking another. If steal doesn’t land, you don’t get any benefits.

Is 10 seconds of boons really that OP? Elementalists can gain boons like nobody’s business. Guardians can stack might without fields or finishers. And the boons can still be stolen, ripped, or copied. Heck, Shattered Concentration and arcane thievery remove boons. And the only stability a thief has comes from an elite skill with a 90 second cooldown. Any other source of stability has to come from somewhere else.

Thieves aren’t OP. Mesmers aren’t OP. Every class is OP.

If you really think it’s not that strong, then why are you arguing so vehemently against nerfing it? Judging by your posts alone, one would draw the conclusion that it’s an inconsequential skill that doesn’t really matter.

Double range shatter is nice! Are you trying to win 1v1 duels? Or, are you trying to do 5v5/PvP conquest stuff? Or, are you into GvG’s or roaming around in WvW? A little insight would help me answer your question a bit better.

Fay.2357:

If you really think it’s not that strong, then why are you arguing so vehemently against nerfing it? Judging by your posts alone, one would draw the conclusion that it’s an inconsequential skill that doesn’t really matter.

Oh, my. That became a pretty…eloquent.

I didn’t say it’s not strong; I said it’s not OP. Every class has some form of OP utility that will effectively counter another. If anything, I wish thieves could be played with as much diversity as mesmers. I wish I could safely PvP as aggressively with my thief, as I do with my mesmer. But that’s not how it’s designed.

Too many people will attack and hate on thieves (mostly because of stealth) without ever learning or understanding the class. Thieves have been nerfed so heavily – Some were needed, others not – and people still ask for nerfs.

There’s actually a thread on the thief forum that compiles a list of requested nerfs, and a lot of them are pretty ridiculous from a thief’s perspective.

Lastly, I would prefer it if consume plasma was changed. Maybe if consumed it grants a 1 second distort. Eh, I can dream.

In WvW, I just Moa them then spike them down with my greatsword. They’re so used to relying on stealth that being Moa’d messes them up bad.

Fay.2357:

Are you kidding me? Please try and explain how gaining every boon in the game for 10s doesn’t contribute fantastically to the thief role in a team?

Compared to the other steals which have direct team play benefits (long duration fear, daze, chill, whirl, area control, water field), consume plasma does relatively little for your team and does a lot more for you yourself.

Fay.2357:

It allows the thief to hit harder, move faster, and have more defense while performing their main role of chasing down and eliminating a target.

It really doesn’t change that much offensively. It grants 1 stack of might, and thieves already maintain fairly good fury and swiftness up-time. Consume plasma is primarily used for the aegis, protection, and stability. Yes, this might let the thief play more aggressively briefly, but it’s still mostly used defensively.

This is getting a bit off track, so I won’t belabor the point.

mango.9267:

Fay.2357:

Are you kidding me? Please try and explain how gaining every boon in the game for 10s doesn’t contribute fantastically to the thief role in a team?

Compared to the other steals which have direct team play benefits (long duration fear, daze, chill, whirl, area control, water field), consume plasma does relatively little for your team and does a lot more for you yourself.

The thief’s roll in a team isnt to offer boons or bonuses to the team (outside of venom share builds I suppose which, as I understand, aren’t used seriously atm). The thief’s roll is to single out and gank targets. An on demand every boon in the game short cd skill is that both boosts damage while boosting defense, particularly vs Mesmer (but not limited to) is incredibly helpful for this purpose.

mango.9267:

Fay.2357:

It allows the thief to hit harder, move faster, and have more defense while performing their main role of chasing down and eliminating a target.

It really doesn’t change that much offensively. It grants 1 stack of might, and thieves already maintain fairly good fury and swiftness up-time. Consume plasma is primarily used for the aegis, protection, and stability. Yes, this might let the thief play more aggressively briefly, but it’s still mostly used defensively.

This is getting a bit off track, so I won’t belabor the point.

It means no matter what state the thief is in he can pop plasma and get all the benefits associated with every boon in the game. And obtaining the benefit is skilless and almost certainly assured, which is a major part of the “OP” problem.

Arikyali.5804:

Mango said it before me. The game isn’t designed for 1v1 , and consume plasma isn’t as helpful in team fights. (Edit: because gaining boons isn’t reliable. Thieves focus more on mobility conditions, than relying on boons. Usually you consume plasma because there’s one particular boon you need badly.)

Fay, 6/8 of your points require traits. Yes, those are the popular ones, but they are glued into the build. Whatever advantage you pick up in a trait, you have to sacrifice for not taking another. If steal doesn’t land, you don’t get any benefits.

Is 10 seconds of boons really that OP? Elementalists can gain boons like nobody’s business. Guardians can stack might without fields or finishers. And the boons can still be stolen, ripped, or copied. Heck, Shattered Concentration and arcane thievery remove boons. And the only stability a thief has comes from an elite skill with a 90 second cooldown. Any other source of stability has to come from somewhere else.

Thieves aren’t OP. Mesmers aren’t OP. Every class is OP.

what the heck are you talking about ?! boons are the most important thing in a party,gaining perma protection,regen or retaliation,can be much effective in group play.I play thief alot,and with guardian that gives me protection Im almost on godmode.

About plasma,it may be strong,but the animation is pretty much obvious and can easly be inturpted,and most thieves,still get bursted down really quick even with all the boons.It dosnt really help them

mango.9267:

Fay.2357:

Are you kidding me? Please try and explain how gaining every boon in the game for 10s doesn’t contribute fantastically to the thief role in a team?

Compared to the other steals which have direct team play benefits (long duration fear, daze, chill, whirl, area control, water field), consume plasma does relatively little for your team and does a lot more for you yourself.

Fay.2357:

It allows the thief to hit harder, move faster, and have more defense while performing their main role of chasing down and eliminating a target.

It really doesn’t change that much offensively. It grants 1 stack of might, and thieves already maintain fairly good fury and swiftness up-time. Consume plasma is primarily used for the aegis, protection, and stability. Yes, this might let the thief play more aggressively briefly, but it’s still mostly used defensively.

This is getting a bit off track, so I won’t belabor the point.

Remember when every thief ran lyssa runes? Remember why? It wasn’t for the condi clear. It was for the strong offensive power from the boons, combined with the very short CD of bassi. It was so strong that the popularity of the rune among thieves led to it getting nerfed.

Consume Plasma is basically just the lyssa rune bonus with longer duration boons and an even shorter CD. It is crazy to say it isn’t op, especially vs mesmer.

cyyrix.6105:

mango.9267:

Fay.2357:

Are you kidding me? Please try and explain how gaining every boon in the game for 10s doesn’t contribute fantastically to the thief role in a team?

Compared to the other steals which have direct team play benefits (long duration fear, daze, chill, whirl, area control, water field), consume plasma does relatively little for your team and does a lot more for you yourself.

Fay.2357:

It allows the thief to hit harder, move faster, and have more defense while performing their main role of chasing down and eliminating a target.

It really doesn’t change that much offensively. It grants 1 stack of might, and thieves already maintain fairly good fury and swiftness up-time. Consume plasma is primarily used for the aegis, protection, and stability. Yes, this might let the thief play more aggressively briefly, but it’s still mostly used defensively.

This is getting a bit off track, so I won’t belabor the point.

Remember when every thief ran lyssa runes? Remember why? It wasn’t for the condi clear. It was for the strong offensive power from the boons, combined with the very short CD of bassi. It was so strong that the popularity of the rune among thieves led to it getting nerfed.

Consume Plasma is basically just the lyssa rune bonus with longer duration boons and an even shorter CD. It is crazy to say it isn’t op, especially vs mesmer.

And consume plasma/boons is only one part of steal. 1 of 8 in Fay’s list of a “typical thief build” :p

Here’s a 4 minute “How to” video of a mesmer fighting 2 thieves!

http://youtu.be/4ECjt_eiq-g

Feel free to ask/pm me any questions, I am happy to help !

Zadarh.1932:

Here’s a 4 minute “How to” video of a mesmer fighting 2 thieves!

http://youtu.be/4ECjt_eiq-g

Feel free to ask/pm me any questions, I am happy to help !

lol that’s the world’s 2 worst thief ever. both of them just shot you with short bow the whole time . The best playing out of them was 1 guy who tried 22222 you . I have often beat bad thieves like that 2-3 at a time it means nothing at all.

the best steal thief can get are from ranger – group play – water field for 10 sec and blast it with sb
from mesmer is purly for defense with some regen stability (i am sure its 5 sec and not 10)

dont forget thief are squishy as hell, need stealth and evades to stay alive so the big benefit are eagis (just AA) sability (save you stun/daze)
most mesmer will use stealth either so… i dont get why it consider op
if the guardian or ele or warrior will have it every 20 sec then yes – op

Mogar.9216:

Zadarh.1932:

Here’s a 4 minute “How to” video of a mesmer fighting 2 thieves!

http://youtu.be/4ECjt_eiq-g

Feel free to ask/pm me any questions, I am happy to help !

lol that’s the world’s 2 worst thief ever. both of them just shot you with short bow the whole time . The best playing out of them was 1 guy who tried 22222 you . I have often beat bad thieves like that 2-3 at a time it means nothing at all.

lol +1 i think you miss one 2 the thief was pressing
spamming 22222 cry out loud for scepter block and torment stacking with MI shatter

but again its 1v2 so also nice done with condi dmg
but you abuse your stealth too much i think

Mogar.9216:

Zadarh.1932:

Here’s a 4 minute “How to” video of a mesmer fighting 2 thieves!

http://youtu.be/4ECjt_eiq-g

Feel free to ask/pm me any questions, I am happy to help !

lol that’s the world’s 2 worst thief ever. both of them just shot you with short bow the whole time . The best playing out of them was 1 guy who tried 22222 you . I have often beat bad thieves like that 2-3 at a time it means nothing at all.

Problem is vs good thieves they will run before they lose. I had a bunch of videos vs thieves but they end in the thief running.

Zadarh.1932:

Mogar.9216:

Zadarh.1932:

Here’s a 4 minute “How to” video of a mesmer fighting 2 thieves!

http://youtu.be/4ECjt_eiq-g

Feel free to ask/pm me any questions, I am happy to help !

lol that’s the world’s 2 worst thief ever. both of them just shot you with short bow the whole time . The best playing out of them was 1 guy who tried 22222 you . I have often beat bad thieves like that 2-3 at a time it means nothing at all.

Problem is vs good thieves they will run before they lose. I had a bunch of videos vs thieves but they end in the thief running.

Good thieves can be challenging to kill, but that’s sort of the point isn’kitten There’s nothig special about steamrolling a bunch of bad players and this topic isn’t asking about how to kill thieves that appear to only have 1 skill on their bar.

i prefer to see skill thief play style running then bad thief die in 5 sec
its true that when thief see your condi pressure they will SR or SS or even break fight
this is wvw which is allowed

DrDivine.5378:

I use double ranged shatter. Similar to what metabattle says though, I tend to get hard countered by most thieves.

Metabattle is the keyword here.

Change build.

messiah.1908:

i prefer to see skill thief play style running then bad thief die in 5 sec
its true that when thief see your condi pressure they will SR or SS or even break fight
this is wvw which is allowed

Even an amazing thief can die in 5 seconds.

Kinda the same way in which a good burst thief can take down a good mes in 2.

Anyway, yes those thieves in the vid lacked skill with the class.

Calypso.2578:

Double range shatter is nice! Are you trying to win 1v1 duels? Or, are you trying to do 5v5/PvP conquest stuff? Or, are you into GvG’s or roaming around in WvW? A little insight would help me answer your question a bit better.

Trying both but I dont do so well in 1v1s with this build, usually my win s are out of luck lol

I think it is a bit of a misconception to say that Thieves counter the Mesmer class as a whole. A more accurate statement is that they counter the meta mesmer builds (double ranged, glkittenter).

I’ve had some pretty good success using odd mesmer builds, some involving lots of blocking and what not, as well as some odd phantasm builds, PU and condition specs. Of course none of these being used in competitive PvP.

Consume Plasma yes, it does seem OP and probably should be toned a little bit, but people act like that this is the only reason why Thief hard counters mesmer and attribute too much weight to it. It contributes yes, but IMO isn’t even close to being half the reason. To me it is mainly because of a combination of clone CnDs, instant and quick gap-closing/bursts and stealth/evasiveness that make them a difficult match up, at least for the meta builds. It seems like that things that punish a thief being hyperaggresive (i.e Clone on Death Traits, Retal, counter-blocking, attacking with Chaos Storm/Chaos Armor) mitigate their status as a hard counter. Not to mention having boons like protection and aegis.

Here’s my perspective as a thief:

VS SD thief: Lol good luck

VS DP thief: Still a really hard matchup but a lot more in your favor since you can hit shatters much better. The key is dodging/stun breaking the basilisk venom and avoiding every backstab, but not wasting CDs too fast. You need to burst them hard whenever possible and then back off. The best way to win is to interrupt their stealth and get a really good halting strike and then follow up with a mirror blade+IP double clone shatter which usually kills a DP thief. Also use Diversion aggressively to get halting strike procs.

This is PvP btw, I don’t really know about WvW SA thieves, you can probably just out skill them because most SA thieves are awful.

Lets do a comparison shall we?

When a thief steals, the “Steal” gets converted to:

(From other thieves) Blinding Tuft – “Throw a handful of hair, vanishing in stealth and blinding nearby foes.”
Blind: 3 s
Stealth: 3 s
Number of Targets: 5
Range: 120

(from Guardians) Mace Head Crack -“Daze your foe.”
Damage: 24
Daze: 4 s
Range: 170

(from Necromancer) Skull Fear - “Strike fear into nearby foes.”
0 to 200 Distance: 3 s
200 to 400 Distance: 2 s
400 to 600 Distance: 1 s
Range: 600

(from Engineer) Throw Gunk - “Throw gunk at target area to inflict a random condition.”
Damage: 147
Combo Field: Ethereal
Range: 900
-Pulses 5 times, conditions includes:
11s Bleeding
7s Poison
2s Burning
2s Chilled
4s Vulnerabilty
4s Weakness
4s Crippled
1s Immobilized
4s Blind

(from Warrior) Whirling Axe - “Spin and attack nearby foes. You can move while spinning.”
Damage: 8
Number of Attacks: 15
Combo Finisher: Whirl
Range: 1,200

(from Ranger) Healing Seed - “Grants regeneration and removes conditions from yourself and nearby allies.”
Healing: 435
Radius: 240
Combo Field: Water

(From Elementalists) Ice Shard Stab - “Stab and chill your foe.”
Damage: 72
Chilled: 10 s
Range: 170

(from Mesmers) Consume Plasma - “Gain all boons.”
Protection: 10 s
Regeneration: 10 s (1300 health)
Vigor: 10 s
Might: 10 s
Fury: 10 s
Swiftness: 10 s
Aegis: 10 s
Stability: 3 s
Retaliation: 5 s

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn’t belong.
Can you tell which thing is not like the others, by the time I finish my song?

If you plan on beating thieves that are just as good as you i think your crazy, they hard counter glass and mesmers in general which makes the meta difficult to beat them on mes.
My advice is explode them when they leave stalth and pray they arent d/d thieves that will wittle you away with perma stealth CnD faster than you can heal. Also i think their stab used to last 5s as i used to get that playing thief.

also s/d thief is nearly un-killable to a glassy mes of the same skill lvl. you have to down them faster than they down you which often means instant blink MI shatter

SlimChance.6593:

Lets do a comparison shall we?

When a thief steals, the “Steal” gets converted to:

(From other thieves) Blinding Tuft – “Throw a handful of hair, vanishing in stealth and blinding nearby foes.”
Blind: 3 s
Stealth: 3 s
Number of Targets: 5
Range: 120

(from Guardians) Mace Head Crack -“Daze your foe.”
Damage: 24
Daze: 4 s
Range: 170

(from Necromancer) Skull Fear - “Strike fear into nearby foes.”
0 to 200 Distance: 3 s
200 to 400 Distance: 2 s
400 to 600 Distance: 1 s
Range: 600

(from Engineer) Throw Gunk - “Throw gunk at target area to inflict a random condition.”
Damage: 147
Combo Field: Ethereal
Range: 900
-Pulses 5 times, conditions includes:
11s Bleeding
7s Poison
2s Burning
2s Chilled
4s Vulnerabilty
4s Weakness
4s Crippled
1s Immobilized
4s Blind

(from Warrior) Whirling Axe - “Spin and attack nearby foes. You can move while spinning.”
Damage: 8
Number of Attacks: 15
Combo Finisher: Whirl
Range: 1,200

(from Ranger) Healing Seed - “Grants regeneration and removes conditions from yourself and nearby allies.”
Healing: 435
Radius: 240
Combo Field: Water

(From Elementalists) Ice Shard Stab - “Stab and chill your foe.”
Damage: 72
Chilled: 10 s
Range: 170

(from Mesmers) Consume Plasma - “Gain all boons.”
Protection: 10 s
Regeneration: 10 s (1300 health)
Vigor: 10 s
Might: 10 s
Fury: 10 s
Swiftness: 10 s
Aegis: 10 s
Stability: 3 s
Retaliation: 5 s

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn’t belong.
Can you tell which thing is not like the others, by the time I finish my song?

Yep,the ice shard stab…poor steal in compare to others.

Sandrox.9524:

SlimChance.6593:

-snip-

Yep,the ice shard stab…poor steal in compare to others.

Same thing I was thinking.

“Get back here and stop running, you flippin’ fast ele, so I can stab you in the face with this ice shard!!”

ele: -trollface-

lol…………………………………………………..

oh anet to deal with “the thief problem” ( like it exist :P )dont nerf thieves, buff mesmers. Thieves dont need buffs or nerfs, other classes just need ways to deal with them. Like a buff that makes a foes first attack on a mesmer hurt them instead that resets whenever we ( the mesmer ) leave combat because that is totally fair, we are hypnotists so we should be able to do that. This way s/d thief will kill itself by immobilizing itself at the beginning of its burst. this will allows us to deal with them without having to have much highier skill than the nooby thief.