Guild Wars 2

Sadly this trait sucks, and even on a full power mes it’s better to take maim than it. Thinking on how to tweak power shatter without generating an explosion of tears, I suggest a QoL change and a minor buff.

QoL

• Shattered illusions grants you might per illusion as before, but the effect occurs immediately (on F1 press) based on how many illusions are lighting up your bar. This moves the damage granted from the might to the forefront of the shattering process, meaning each and every clone that hits, hits full force.

Minor Buff

• Grant 2 stacks of might per illusion shattered. Gotta make the trait worth it kitten .

Without any boon duration it’s a 5-10% damage boost for build that shatters regularly which is about on par for a master trait. You might be able to argue for minor buffs but doubling it is clearly unreasonable – 3 shatters would send you directly to 24 might, and with Chrono that would be easy.

I’m going to get a lot of hate for this, but 24 might for 10s after 3 shatters is not that terrible in the current meta.

Scrapper can achieve 25 might for 10s with just 2-4 hammer auto-attack chains in a crowded mid fight, especially when there is a necro around. Rev basically start the fight with almost 10-14 might (or 25 might if 2 revs) on whole group. Signet necro can maintain 12 stacks of might if they know how to use their signets properly.

I know extremely high might stacks has been an indication of balance issue in the past, especially back then you see so many D/D eles that just play with their mini-games of blasting fire field rather than actually fighting opponent (and can still win). But nowadays might has little impact on outcome.

You can achieve 24 might quickly with that change, yes, but 10s later your might will wears off and you’re left with mind wreck or signet of illusion. It is rather easy to deny mesmer damage in that 10s. Not to mention pretty much every build (except thief) has enough toughness or passives to avoid getting killed by mesmer burst, even if you spec as domi/illu/chrono in this condi meta.

^Has a point really. It’s incredibly easy (too easy) to get Might without even trying anymore on nearly every class now. As Anet are never going to do what is necessary to address the overall power creep that has occurred since June 2015, blowing 3 shatters to get 24 stacks of Might just doesn’t seem that ridiculous anymore in relation to everything else. After all, I can get 24 stacks of Might just by pressing Unload 3 times.

Toeofdoom.6152:

Without any boon duration it’s a 5-10% damage boost for build that shatters regularly which is about on par for a master trait. You might be able to argue for minor buffs but doubling it is clearly unreasonable – 3 shatters would send you directly to 24 might, and with Chrono that would be easy.

You say this like Ross’s change would allow you to just slot in shattered strength and lickety split be OP! Well, I’ve got some news for you unfortunately: That isn’t how this works. At all.

The meta power build uses chrono for obvious reasons. This is non-negotiable. The meta power build uses domination for boon strip and damage. This is non-negotiable. The meta power build uses inspiration to stay alive. This is non-negotiable.

Whoops! No room for illusions!

Ok, lets see then. What can we drop? Well, we could drop domination, but losing out on the big damage amps/power block and the boon strip on shatter is going to be a massive loss in the current meta of everyone and their mother spamming boons. We could drop inspiration, but losing out on the reliable condition removal it provides is going to make it difficult for you to survive in larger fights.

Quite honestly, I think Ross’s suggestion is too weak for it to still ever see use. The sacrifices required to actually take the trait are massive. Either other changes need to be made, or the trait needs an even larger boost: to 3 stacks per illusion shattered.

Fay.2357:

Toeofdoom.6152:

Without any boon duration it’s a 5-10% damage boost for build that shatters regularly which is about on par for a master trait. You might be able to argue for minor buffs but doubling it is clearly unreasonable – 3 shatters would send you directly to 24 might, and with Chrono that would be easy.

You say this like Ross’s change would allow you to just slot in shattered strength and lickety split be OP! Well, I’ve got some news for you unfortunately: That isn’t how this works. At all.

The meta power build uses chrono for obvious reasons. This is non-negotiable. The meta power build uses domination for boon strip and damage. This is non-negotiable. The meta power build uses inspiration to stay alive. This is non-negotiable.

Whoops! No room for illusions!

Ok, lets see then. What can we drop? Well, we could drop domination, but losing out on the big damage amps/power block and the boon strip on shatter is going to be a massive loss in the current meta of everyone and their mother spamming boons. We could drop inspiration, but losing out on the reliable condition removal it provides is going to make it difficult for you to survive in larger fights.

Quite honestly, I think Ross’s suggestion is too weak for it to still ever see use. The sacrifices required to actually take the trait are massive. Either other changes need to be made, or the trait needs an even larger boost: to 3 stacks per illusion shattered.

Exactly, this change isnt enough to make power shatter viable. It’s just the first of many changes that’d be necessary to move things in the right direction without walking down the power creep path, or indirectly buffing condi meta builds or “chrono” elite spec in any meaningful way.

So with this change in place, you’d still need some sort of viable cleanse option for a power shatter setup put somewhere. Either in domination, or illusions (improving torch trait, or something in the GM line). Nothing as strong as Inspiration, but something regardless.

If you’re trying to buff a burst damage build by buffing a line that works around sustained damage, yeah, that won’t work easily. But that’s not because shattered strength is “too weak”. Instead consider what this would do to a paladin or demolisher version of last season’s meta build.

As for engi traits, I was already comparing to those, and this trait is very similar in power to mass momentum.

Toeofdoom.6152:

If you’re trying to buff a burst damage build by buffing a line that works around sustained damage, yeah, that won’t work easily. But that’s not because shattered strength is “too weak”. Instead consider what this would do to a paladin or demolisher version of last season’s meta build.

As for engi traits, I was already comparing to those, and this trait is very similar in power to mass momentum.

What it would do to last season’s meta build? Well, it would make the build absolute garbage because last season’s meta build was condition damage with MtD. Next question.

It was a hybrid build that still did a large part of its damage with power – 20 might stacks, power stats & if moa is too crap now, switching to gravity well allow it to hit hard other ways

Anyway, I don’t think you’re really trying to consider alternate views so I’ll be off.

Toeofdoom.6152:

It was a hybrid build that still did a large part of its damage with power – 20 might stacks, power stats & if moa is too crap now, switching to gravity well allow it to hit hard other ways

Anyway, I don’t think you’re really trying to consider alternate views so I’ll be off.

I don’t think you understand. Shattered strength and maim share a spot. If you remove maim, the build no longer is “hybrid”. It’s just power, and it’s 100% totally different.

See, this treating me like an idiot thing is not productive. I know how stats work.

Toeofdoom.6152:

See, this treating me like an idiot thing is not productive. I know how stats work.

Then why are you claiming that this change would improve the build from season 2? That claim doesn’t even flirt with reality, because S2 meta was a hybrid build revolving around MtD.

Fay.2357:

Toeofdoom.6152:

See, this treating me like an idiot thing is not productive. I know how stats work.

Then why are you claiming that this change would improve the build from season 2? That claim doesn’t even flirt with reality, because S2 meta was a hybrid build revolving around MtD.

Pretty much Fay is on the money, and I don’t see him stating facts as you being treated like an idiot (that’s your narrative).

Neither condi nor hybrid benefits from a buff to shattered strength because you have to give up maim, which is the single best damaging condition mes has.

Also while the illusions line might give the illusion of being a “sustained damage” line, the line offers a lot to any mesmer build simply for the reduced cd’s on illusion summoning skills, and on shatters. That’s more bursts, and more utility right there. Both things a power shatter build can do with.

Fay.2357:

Toeofdoom.6152:

Without any boon duration it’s a 5-10% damage boost for build that shatters regularly which is about on par for a master trait. You might be able to argue for minor buffs but doubling it is clearly unreasonable – 3 shatters would send you directly to 24 might, and with Chrono that would be easy.

You say this like Ross’s change would allow you to just slot in shattered strength and lickety split be OP! Well, I’ve got some news for you unfortunately: That isn’t how this works. At all.

The meta power build uses chrono for obvious reasons. This is non-negotiable. The meta power build uses domination for boon strip and damage. This is non-negotiable. The meta power build uses inspiration to stay alive. This is non-negotiable.

Whoops! No room for illusions!

Ok, lets see then. What can we drop? Well, we could drop domination, but losing out on the big damage amps/power block and the boon strip on shatter is going to be a massive loss in the current meta of everyone and their mother spamming boons. We could drop inspiration, but losing out on the reliable condition removal it provides is going to make it difficult for you to survive in larger fights.

Quite honestly, I think Ross’s suggestion is too weak for it to still ever see use. The sacrifices required to actually take the trait are massive. Either other changes need to be made, or the trait needs an even larger boost: to 3 stacks per illusion shattered.

if this change would happen i can see dom/illu/chorno even without insp line and taking mor to cleanse .as before power shatter user to be without any cleanse. so mor or null, should be enough for good power mesmer to handle it.

messiah.1908:

as before power shatter user to be without any cleanse. so mor or null, should be enough for good power mesmer to handle it.

Yeah, but that was back when condies were not meta at all. Poison and burn didn’t stack, immob didn’t stack, you didn’t have all the HoT powercreep. Back then condie clears were basically needed for soft cc and that’s it. Now is a totally different ball game.

You may be right that MoR is enough…but it’s certainly not a given.

My bias is still more in favor of buffing the dueling line to making it a favorable pick from domination.

Even with 2 stacks, I would find it hard to trade out insp due to the current nature of condis.

If the change is just for the sake of making it somewhat more in line with MtD then I guess my vote would be like the old 3 stack before that got instantly removed. (btw we STILL never got to use it post “band-aid fix” on shatters, and that has still never been addressed either.)

Daishi.6027:

(btw we STILL never got to use it post “band-aid fix” on shatters, and that has still never been addressed either.)

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that never happened

I think an important point is that this trait should not compete with MtD.

Also, on a note, might has more effect on condition builds (because conditions scale better than power). It is irrelevant anyway because condi builds need MtD.

1 stack of might is still in line compared to other similar master level trait.

But I agree on that might before shatter part. Because our damage relies a lot on shatter but if they don’t benefit from that might stack, we lose out most of its benefit.

Exciton.8942:

1 stack of might is still in line compared to other similar master level trait.

But I agree on that might before shatter part. Because our damage relies a lot on shatter but if they don’t benefit from that might stack, we lose out most of its benefit.

Sure, similar to other master level traits on other classes that come equipped with a ton of ways to stack might other than that. We’ve got pretty much nothing outside of the bounces on mirror blade and shattered strength.

Fay.2357:

messiah.1908:

as before power shatter user to be without any cleanse. so mor or null, should be enough for good power mesmer to handle it.

Yeah, but that was back when condies were not meta at all. Poison and burn didn’t stack, immob didn’t stack, you didn’t have all the HoT powercreep. Back then condie clears were basically needed for soft cc and that’s it. Now is a totally different ball game.

You may be right that MoR is enough…but it’s certainly not a given.

i sometimes play condi mesmer without insp line. and i can do fine as usually i see 1 necro 1 condi mesmer or 2 necro in one team so i know where to position myself and how much to extend. so with buff to power shatter i can assume it will be fine (assume)

Why not go about it a different way and open up the possibility of something else?

Make the might last 20s or 25s per clone shattered then you have a trait that can sort of stack might for some kind of sustained damage build. Yes Pyro I know at the moment it would probably be garbage and probably wouldn’t work but a reliable way to stack might could bring a decent sustained damage build with some QoL improvements.

Then if they fix Mesmer sustained damage either through elite specs or actual adjustments to the base class it may not be terrible.

I think as Fay has stated, you could buff Shattered Strength, but ultimately it doesn’t actually get you anywhere. You have to play chrono and inspiration for obvious reasons and if you play power you take dom. Are there variations? Sure, you could go full glass cannon and do something like chrono/dom/dueling but then you are basically sitting around praying you don’t get condi-bombed…which quite frankly isn’t a good strategy.

I think a better solution/buff would be to give Mesmers a more reliable way to clear condi other than taking inspiration.

All of this being said, even if we had more reliable condi cleanse outside inspiration, power shatter (not burst shatter via domination) will still run into problems with illusion creation. Running the traditional GS + Sw/Sh in a power shatter only nets you 3 illusion creating abilities. If you are going to run a power shatter utilizing a trait like Shattered Strength, you are going to want to be shattering and generating illusions more consistently, even with taking Illusionary Reversion and Chronophantasma in Chronomancer.

I think the illusions line could use some tweaks to make it more utility-based. I think Master of Fragmentation is one of my favorite traits because of what it does for our shatters. F2 becomes a great kiting tool, F3 a superb AoE interrupt (potentially a stun) and F4 can be a stellar reflect.

I think this is the traitline that could do something better about condition cleansing so that we aren’t too reliant on Inspiration. Maybe change The Prestige to something like “Smoke and Mirrors: Torch skills transfer [2/3?] conditions to your target. Reduces recharge of torch skills by 20 percent.”

Maybe then you could even swap that trait with where Shattered Strength is in the line.

I’d just want it moved to Domination.

I have a much better idea.

Everytime you gain might, you transfer a condition to your foes ICD 7secs
You gain might for each illusion shattered

PROS:

• You retain the Hybrid aspect of Illusions
• YAY! No more pigeonholing to Inspiration
• Opens up more builds

StickerHappy.8052:

I have a much better idea.

Everytime you gain might, you transfer a condition to your foes ICD 7secs
You gain might for each illusion shattered

PROS:

• You retain the Hybrid aspect of Illusions
• YAY! No more pigeonholing to Inspiration
• Opens up more builds

Honestly, this makes no sense. What happens when you gain might without a target? Why would I take a trait that will proc when I probably have a single stack of vuln on me and then be down for 7 seconds?

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

I have a much better idea.

Everytime you gain might, you transfer a condition to your foes ICD 7secs
You gain might for each illusion shattered

PROS:

• You retain the Hybrid aspect of Illusions
• YAY! No more pigeonholing to Inspiration
• Opens up more builds

Honestly, this makes no sense. What happens when you gain might without a target? Why would I take a trait that will proc when I probably have a single stack of vuln on me and then be down for 7 seconds?

of course it wouldn’t proc without a target hellooo. like generosity fix that only makes it proc if you have a condition on you. Oh its supposed to be 2 conditions. I just put the icd there just because without it then it will prolly be OP The ICD could be way lower.

I would still take it because it’s still SS with an added effect.

StickerHappy.8052:

I have a much better idea.

Everytime you gain might, you transfer a condition to your foes ICD 7secs
You gain might for each illusion shattered

PROS:

• You retain the Hybrid aspect of Illusions
• YAY! No more pigeonholing to Inspiration
• Opens up more builds

1 condition every seven seconds? How many seconds do you expect to live with a condi bomb on you? Or the ever impending problem of continually reapplied condi’s XD

For cleansing I’d go immediately to two places. The first is The Prestigue. In addition to a condition cleansed on torch skill used, 1 condition cleansed for entering stealth. Then Imagined Burden is currently an underwhelming trait that could be used to compete with the damage/debuffing options in the GM level Domination line. That’d give GS condi cleanse (somehow) which is purely a power weapon anyway (won’t buff condi)

And/or play on Stickers idea and improve things like Rending Shatter- 1 condi cleansed when you apply vuln, icd 3s.

Or they could just remove shattered conditions and make it a core feature. Promotes active shattering and removes us from taking inspiration.

I feel like buffing classes and traits is the wrong way to go about things. We already have issues with power creep, and 25 might self stacking classes are already a pain in the rear. It’s better to just nerf the living hell out of some (cough-condi-cough) play styles so that its not “one is better than the other”, but rather “one fits a situation better than another”.

To be fair that goes with just about everything.

#bringbackzerkmeta
#condigameplayencouragesbadplayers
#probablytriggeredfay

DoomKnightMax.6592:

I feel like buffing classes and traits is the wrong way to go about things. We already have issues with power creep, and 25 might self stacking classes are already a pain in the rear. It’s better to just nerf the living hell out of some (cough-condi-cough) play styles so that its not “one is better than the other”, but rather “one fits a situation better than another”.

To be fair that goes with just about everything.

#bringbackzerkmeta
#condigameplayencouragesbadplayers
#probablytriggeredfay

The problem is that shattered strength was already weaker than maim the disillusioned pre HoT. It won’t buff your damage by any more than adding straight up torment even with 0 condition damage. There is no situation that best fits shattered strength because it’s completely crap compared to the other choices. In fact there’s very few traits I would actually pick shattered strength over…

apharma.3741:

DoomKnightMax.6592:

I feel like buffing classes and traits is the wrong way to go about things. We already have issues with power creep, and 25 might self stacking classes are already a pain in the rear. It’s better to just nerf the living hell out of some (cough-condi-cough) play styles so that its not “one is better than the other”, but rather “one fits a situation better than another”.

To be fair that goes with just about everything.

#bringbackzerkmeta
#condigameplayencouragesbadplayers
#probablytriggeredfay

There is no situation that best fits shattered strength because it’s completely crap compared to the other choices. In fact there’s very few traits I would actually pick shattered strength over…

Except appropriately buffing a power burst. Maim on a 0 condition setup adds the slight benefit of a small (albeit better) amount of DoT. In a power burst, if you could have that equivalent or more up front within your shatter burst, you’d be silly not to take it (unless you’re reliably getting your might stacks, every burst, from somewhere/one else).

This is why even upping the might stacks per illusion shattered to 5 is meaningless without the QoL change. Without the immediacy of the might, it’s flat out pointless.

DoomKnightMax.6592:

I feel like buffing classes and traits is the wrong way to go about things. We already have issues with power creep, and 25 might self stacking classes are already a pain in the rear. It’s better to just nerf the living hell out of some (cough-condi-cough) play styles so that its not “one is better than the other”, but rather “one fits a situation better than another”.

To be fair that goes with just about everything.

#bringbackzerkmeta
#condigameplayencouragesbadplayers
#probablytriggeredfay

Depends dude. Like with my suggestion (although pyro shot it down) if there is something else for the trait to offer then we can make something with that. Condition transfer on a trait relieves the outmost reliance on Inspiration thus opening more builds.

StickerHappy.8052:

DoomKnightMax.6592:

I feel like buffing classes and traits is the wrong way to go about things. We already have issues with power creep, and 25 might self stacking classes are already a pain in the rear. It’s better to just nerf the living hell out of some (cough-condi-cough) play styles so that its not “one is better than the other”, but rather “one fits a situation better than another”.

To be fair that goes with just about everything.

#bringbackzerkmeta
#condigameplayencouragesbadplayers
#probablytriggeredfay

Depends dude. Like with my suggestion (although pyro shot it down) if there is something else for the trait to offer then we can make something with that. Condition transfer on a trait relieves the outmost reliance on Inspiration thus opening more builds.

A reliance on inspiration isn’t why power shatter is non-viable though. Condie shatter needs inspiration too, so it doesn’t really make sense to lock condition removal behind a trait that is impossible for a condie build to take.

StickerHappy.8052:

I have a much better idea.

Everytime you gain might, you transfer a condition to your foes ICD 7secs
You gain might for each illusion shattered

I’m not a fan of this idea. I’m fine with Inspiration being one of our very few ways to handle conditions properly. I don’t see it as a “problem” of the class. It’s a legitimate weakness, and instead of buffing us to get rid of that weakness, they should be introducing similar weaknesses in other classes, rather than allowing them to have builds bloated with condition cleanses, CC immunity, passive defences, etc.

Obvious weaknesses like these are healthy for the game, so long as every class has them. If the enemy sees a full glass cannon power shatter Mesmer on the enemy team, then they’ll be able to identify that condition removal is their weakness, and adapt their playstyle accordingly. That’s the kind of strategic thinking that a spammy PvP with bloated builds won’t foster.

Unfortunately, right now there are certainly bloated builds in PvP which give classes too many options and too little weaknesses. Spreading our condition removal around different trait lines to get rid of our reliance on Inspiration will allow us to stand up to these builds, but it isn’t solving the overarching problem. It’s like introducing snakes to fix a rat infestation. Before you know it you’ve got a snake infestation on your hands.

That said, I do agree that Shattered Strength is… not great. If it were up to me, I’d rework it into something a bit more “Mesmer-y”, like:

“You gain 1 might and steal 2 might stacks from your enemy for each illusion shattered.”

Of course, the above numbers can be tweaked, but I would be interested in a rework that pushes Mesmer’s boon-stripping/stealing.

Step.1285:

“You gain 1 might and steal 2 might stacks from your enemy for each illusion shattered.”

This makes no sense if you think about it a bit, but it could be modified into something usable. The main issue is that it steps on the toes of shattered concentration, but I’ll mention it anyhow.

“Remove a boon from your enemy with each illusion shattered. Gain might for each boon removed this way.”

Shattered strength doesn’t belong in the illusions line anyway. Its a weird trait that stands out as the outsider in that whole line. Imo, replace shattered strength with the boon rip shatter from domination line to get illusions traitline all the utility since that’s what that line is anyway. Compounded power shouldn’t be in that line either since illusions is about shattering too. What I would do is combine shattered strength and compounding power and place it in the domination line followed by some tweaking.
“Gain increased damage and condition damage for each illusion you shatter for x seconds.” Make it a buff instead of a boon like fencer’s ferocity.

I always thought of shattered strength as the centerpiece of a possible hybrid damage build. Since scepter is basically my favorite weapon and it works well both in condi and power, I keep coming back to this trait to try to make something out of it.

But it never works. 1 stack of might for 10 seconds just doesn’t match up with what you lose from MtD. I like Ross’s 2 stack suggestion. The other possibility is to change the base duration of the might stacks to something like 15 seconds. Then if you really want to invest in hybrid, you can get aristocracy or strength runes and now you can probably maintain a reasonable number of stacks (assuming they aren’t stripped).

But I’m doubtful the 15-second duration would really help the pure power shatter. I wonder if it’s feasible to add a trait you could choose in inspiration that would increase the damage of the F2 shatter.

Ross Biddle.2367:

apharma.3741:

DoomKnightMax.6592:

I feel like buffing classes and traits is the wrong way to go about things. We already have issues with power creep, and 25 might self stacking classes are already a pain in the rear. It’s better to just nerf the living hell out of some (cough-condi-cough) play styles so that its not “one is better than the other”, but rather “one fits a situation better than another”.

To be fair that goes with just about everything.

#bringbackzerkmeta
#condigameplayencouragesbadplayers
#probablytriggeredfay

There is no situation that best fits shattered strength because it’s completely crap compared to the other choices. In fact there’s very few traits I would actually pick shattered strength over…

Except appropriately buffing a power burst. Maim on a 0 condition setup adds the slight benefit of a small (albeit better) amount of DoT. In a power burst, if you could have that equivalent or more up front within your shatter burst, you’d be silly not to take it (unless you’re reliably getting your might stacks, every burst, from somewhere/one else).

This is why even upping the might stacks per illusion shattered to 5 is meaningless without the QoL change. Without the immediacy of the might, it’s flat out pointless.

Can’t agree. Maybe useless if you’re trying to 1 hit people on first engage with a one-trick pony combo.

This trait works fine for me because the might lasts plenty long and I set up my burst with previous shatters.. Once I get my might up and bait cd’s of my opponent then I will go ham.

I guess I should add I run holebrak(might duration) and a bit of boon duration. I run mostly power based but with a bit of hybrid flavor.. So the might is not only for my burst but helps my DOT’s be effective as well.