Guild Wars 2

“•The Minor Adept trait “Illusionists Celerity” has been made the Minor Grandmaster trait and the other Minor traits have been pushed down."
http://www.guildwars2hub.com/features/editorials/sky-pirates-tyria-traits-preview-part-one

Guess we all roll shatter now?

As posted in another thread:

It is a much larger loss than you think. With cooldowns of 12 seconds on your two weapon sets a phantasm mesmer would use this rotation:
phantasm #1
swap weapon
phantasm #2
wait 12 seconds… phantasm #2
swap weapon
phantasm #1
wait 12 seconds… phantasm #1
swap weapon
phantasm #2
over and over…
The result was 2 phantasms every 12 seconds.

Using the same weapon swap logic we now get 2 phantasms every 16 seconds, or a 33% nerf in phantasms per second.

Under the new logic you will be waiting for the 48 second mark in a fight to unleash your third salvo of phantasms, previously it took just 36 seconds. Make no mistake, this is a huge nerf to phantasm builds.

I once did a lot of maths to come to the conclusion that is is absolutely essential for a phantasm build to have both the weapon trait AND illusionist’s celerity in order to maximise phantasms per second. For this reason I only ever used 10/30/0/25/5 with sw/sw + sw/pi, or 0/20/20/25/5 with sw/sw and staff.

Shatter vs phantasm was an even tossup prior to this. Those extra 4-6 seconds on the phantasms make this a nobrainer for me, it’s back to shatter I go. If shatter is nerfed next patch to complete the nerfing of every single decent mesmer spec I’ll swap mains.

I would have preferred a damage nerf due to target swapping and the increased hp per second the enemy would have to chew through if they decided to kill the phantasms (which in turn gave more retaliation damage back to them).

Don’t forget you also lose the cooldown buff to things like staff #2, greatsword #2 and sword #3. Not to mention decoy.

Phantasm spec almost requires signet of illusions now, but shatter spec is free to take something more useful.

Finally, anet said they do not balance around 1v1.

Shatter > phantasm by far for all modes of gameplay if this change goes through, and I’ve been a phantasm fan almost my whole lvl 80 life whether it be roaming, zerging, spvping or pveing, even through the confusion era.

If they nerf shatter and blurred frenzy next, we’ll have nothing left.

Like I said in the other thread, if Phantasms are too slow to come out now this is indicative of too long weapon CDs in general. The trait itself is mighty fine as a 25 point trait, it feels powerful enough for that place.

Might need to lower all weapon CDs by ~10%, true. They can feel a bit clunky, but that’s an issue with base CD.

Remember fadeaway, abilities should be useful pre-traits, too.

You pretty much summed up what I was thinking….I do have a necro geared out, I hate him tho…but if they nerf shatter next it might be the only option…

To answer the question of the OP, simply we have no way of knowing what is coming tomorrow. Everything we have seen from the reddit and gw2hub posts is unofficial. Some things may be true some may not, but until tomorrow noone knows for sure.

If this happens, I think it might be the final straw. I already have had to switch builds because of the izerker nerf, which I got my LEGENDARY GS a week b4 they broke it.

Now this……

Well, to be honest, I am surprised it stayed this way this long.
-20%CD to so much things as a minor adept trait is sick. We might need buff elsewhere, but this particular nerf isn’t underserved. Unlike the blinding beffudlement nerf, it totally makes sense.

Some things may be true some may not, but until tomorrow noone knows for sure.

And even then you have to find out what new lovely hidden nerfs bugs came with the changes.

Well if phantasms already came out at 12 seconds, I think the -20% trait would be fine up the line.

But 16 seconds? That’s ridiculous for a phantasm builds main source of damage. Especially since they can be negated by blinds/invuln/etc. And can be destroyed easily.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Some things may be true some may not, but until tomorrow noone knows for sure.

And even then you have to find out what new lovely hidden nerfs bugs came with the changes.

To be fair, we got a hidden buff last patch: Phantasm regeneration is now affected by boon duration.

This change annoys me because I’ve always felt that Mesmer Illusion CDs were too long anyhow, we rely on being able to conjure Illusions to fuel our mechanic and, as it stands, we already rely too heavily on Deceptive Evasion and Mirror Images to produce clones.

I can only hope that since we’re only seeing the trait changes, that ANet was at least smart enough to reduce some of our more extensive CDs at the base value. It’s pretty sad when we rely on IP and reducing our weapon Illusion CDs by 40% to have even semi reliable access to Shatters.

Another thing fadeaway, with this change there is basicly no shatter build that can be considered vaible without 25 point in illusion, and if you 25 p in illusion its a big misstake to not go 30 for ip alternative mass interupt builds and get the mass daze.

So overall this change narrov the viable mesmer builds to 0-0-0-0-25 (30) and for al dmg dealing builds we look at 0-10-0-0-25. Sure there will be some experemental 10-0-30-0-0-30 interupt mass daze builds and some healing speed 0-0-0 30-30 but it will be hard to argue for any build without atleast 25 in illusions. This due to the fact it give a 20% ability drop for al our builds most important abilitys and utilitys.

Personaly as a shatter mesmer from the start I only se posseblitys in the changes as I already run mandatory 30 in illsuions, BUT the beuty of the mesmer class is the flexibility to run different builds, not glad to se that get worse.

Osicat

Wait, whaaaat ?
Seriously, if they do this, it’s the most bullkitten ever.
It might be balance in sPvP, it might also be justified in WvW.
BUT in PvE ??
I hope if they do this, they keep my pve mesmer out of this kitten or they reduce base CD to compensate.

Osicat.4139:

Another thing fadeaway, with this change there is basicly no shatter build that can be considered vaible without 25 point in illusion, and if you 25 p in illusion its a big misstake to not go 30 for ip alternative mass interupt builds and get the mass daze.

So overall this change narrov the viable mesmer builds to 0-0-0-0-25 (30) and for al dmg dealing builds we look at 0-10-0-0-25. Sure there will be some experemental 10-0-30-0-0-30 interupt mass daze builds and some healing speed 0-0-0 30-30 but it will be hard to argue for any build without atleast 25 in illusions. This due to the fact it give a 20% ability drop for al our builds most important abilitys and utilitys.

Personaly as a shatter mesmer from the start I only se posseblitys in the changes as I already run mandatory 30 in illsuions, BUT the beuty of the mesmer class is the flexibility to run different builds, not glad to se that get worse.

Osicat

I was thinking more along the lines of an 0-20-20-0-30 build with Bountiful Interruptions. If that doesn’t have an internal cooldown, that means with one chaos storm (doesn’t need to be traited), you’ll most likely hit 25 stacks of might, especially if there are 5 targets inside. From there, you can start bouncing them around with Signet of Inspiration. Regardless, it’s a simple strategy: you boom —> instant huge shatter burst potential.

BUT I feel like it’s going to get nerfed and then we’re going to end up weaker and with less build diversity than before.

Osicat.4139:

BUT the beuty of the mesmer class is the flexibility to run different builds, not glad to se that get worse.

Osicat

This is exactly what bothers me most about this change. This one skill effects so many of our skills that it’s mandatory in shatter builds, and kitten hard to live without in every other build.

I’m a serial expirementer and the best part of the Mesmer was the ability to run many different viable builds. After this I’ll feel much more locked in. Ironic seeing how the reason for these changes is “to promote more build variety”.

I really hope these notes aren’t real, because I’ll be incredibly sad for the mesmer versatility if it happens tomorrow.

gah… it burns.

I didn’t notice this before and thanks to everyone for outlining its impact. It feels like the game designers are boxing us into their “perfect” mesmer playstyle.

I practiced with an interrupt build last night to get used to it just incase something like this happened. Ugh… I didn’t do so well and switched back to my phatasm build.

Osicat.4139:

Another thing fadeaway, with this change there is basicly no shatter build that can be considered vaible without 25 point in illusion, and if you 25 p in illusion its a big misstake to not go 30 for ip alternative mass interupt builds and get the mass daze.

So overall this change narrov the viable mesmer builds to 0-0-0-0-25 (30) and for al dmg dealing builds we look at 0-10-0-0-25. Sure there will be some experemental 10-0-30-0-0-30 interupt mass daze builds and some healing speed 0-0-0 30-30 but it will be hard to argue for any build without atleast 25 in illusions. This due to the fact it give a 20% ability drop for al our builds most important abilitys and utilitys.

Personaly as a shatter mesmer from the start I only se posseblitys in the changes as I already run mandatory 30 in illsuions, BUT the beuty of the mesmer class is the flexibility to run different builds, not glad to se that get worse.

Osicat

Quoting because if I said it I would just get trolled. This^ is the reality of it though.

I also tend to fall into the mandatory 30 Illusions club too, but it does suck to lose that 5pt option when experimenting.

A better change would have been:

-Reduced all Illusion CDs by 20%, every single one of you had this trait anyhow so it might as well of been built in.
-Replaced Illusionist’s Celerity with Illusionist’s Charge: Shattered Illusions gain Swiftness and Aegis.

The could have just reduced it to 10% cooldown rather than 20.

Or moved it up to the Master minor.

Or made it an adept major trait!

Worst bit is there are people genuinely arguing that this HELPS build diversity!

You can argue forever whether it makes us under/overpowered, but arguing that it promotes diversity is just madness.

30 in Illusions is borderline mandatory now, which is just sad.

I don’t think anyone is really saying this helps build diversity. I think some people are saying that we have 5 more points because there’s no reason to go into illusions.

Kind of like looking at a plate full of garbage and saying “at least the silverware is nice”

People don’t understand how utterly bad this would be.
The problem is not phantasms, we could do without it for phantasms. The problem is for everything that does something more than just spawning an illusion, those which summon clones :
- Phase Retreat : terribad nerf
- Blade Mirror : terribad nerf
- Illusionary Leap : nerf just after we got it working with blade training

Those will be hit hard by the nerf, from worst to least bad.
Not only does it nerf everything not shatter specced, but it also nerfs damage (phantasms) AND utility/control/survival.

I feel this nerf is justified, simply because IC is a very powerful minor trait, one of the most powerful & build changing in the game in my opinion. As a 25 point trait, it feels justified there. However, I also agree that a 10% adjustment to all illusion cooldowns would help non illusion based mesmers out. Similarly, if such a change did happen, IC would be brought down to 10% as well. That way, non IC mesmers are slower but not as slow as before, while mesmers who have put the hard points into illusions will still have the same cooldowns as they do currently.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

To answer the question of the OP, simply we have no way of knowing what is coming tomorrow. Everything we have seen from the reddit and gw2hub posts is unofficial. Some things may be true some may not, but until tomorrow noone knows for sure.

I commend your optimism, but all signs point to this being a reality.

All the other professions think that the Mesmer has the cake and is able to eat it too. It’s not true at all, but with the changes that has been happening to the Mesmer, then the devs must feel the same.

Arale.4207:

I feel this nerf is justified, simply because IC is a very powerful minor trait, one of the most powerful & build changing in the game in my opinion. As a 25 point trait, it feels justified there. However, I also agree that a 10% adjustment to all illusion cooldowns would help non illusion based mesmers out. Similarly, if such a change did happen, IC would be brought down to 10% as well. That way, non IC mesmers are slower but not as slow as before, while mesmers who have put the hard points into illusions will still have the same cooldowns as they do currently.

Because it was so powerful, (almost) every build ran it. One could make the argument that because it was so mandatory for so long, that the rest of the class was balanced around it.

If that’s the case, and that Mesmers were balanced with IC in mind, then this is a flat out nerf to every build that doesn’t run 25 in Illusions. Even with your suggestion (which is definitely better than the possible change), it’s still penalizing mesmers who don’t run 0/0/0/0/25, simply because the class was previously balanced around the trait.

I’m just as disgusted by this as everyone else. If it’s real, Anet should be ashamed about this change.

TooBz.3065:

I don’t think anyone is really saying this helps build diversity. I think some people are saying that we have 5 more points because there’s no reason to go into illusions.

Kind of like looking at a plate full of garbage and saying “at least the silverware is nice”

Not in this thread admittedly but I just saw this on reddit. This kind of idiocy is everywhere!

http://puu.sh/3nvp4.png

I’m fully convinced that this is an important step to increase build diversity, but ONLY if they nerf shatter builds as well.

Regardless, overpowered stuff gets nerfed. Many people get shocked when this happens, and think the world is coming to an end, but it happens and it must happen.

Should mesmers become too weak after this change, then the problem lies on the cooldowns of their weapon’s skills, not on this trait.

Regardless, phantasm builds were insanely overpowered, and they only didn’t see more play because shatter builds bring very valuable team support with its utility.

Brilliant deduction DiogoSIlva. I doubt anyone would ever think that IC was mandatory if the weapon skill cds weren’t stupidly high -.-

phantasm builds were overpowered in pve huh? totally. and shatter builds are so weak in pvp. better nerf the phantasm builds so pvp is more balanced -.-

For kittens and giggles…..someone post all the abilities this will affect…

If you think a 16 cooldown is stupidly high for a skill that stays on the field until it’s manually destroyed, then you should never touch an elementalist. :P

But anyway, with the proper setup, I usually don’t need to recast my phantasms that often in pve. Casting them once is usually enough to defeat a random pve mob.

1 – Mirror Blade
2 – iBerzerker
3 – Phase Retreat
4 – iWarlock
5 – Illusionary Counter
6 – Illusionary Leap
7 – Illusionary Riposte
8 – iSwordsman
9 – iDuelist
10 – iWarden
11 – iMage
12 – iDisenchanter
13 – iDefender
14 – Decoy
15 – Mirror Images

only 15 skills pff. -.-

stays on the field until it’s manually destroyed? son you have never played a mesmer -.-

XRay.1920:

stays on the field until it’s manually destroyed? son you have never played a mesmer -.-

Elementalist

Arale.4207:

I feel this nerf is justified, simply because IC is a very powerful minor trait, one of the most powerful & build changing in the game in my opinion. As a 25 point trait, it feels justified there. However, I also agree that a 10% adjustment to all illusion cooldowns would help non illusion based mesmers out. Similarly, if such a change did happen, IC would be brought down to 10% as well. That way, non IC mesmers are slower but not as slow as before, while mesmers who have put the hard points into illusions will still have the same cooldowns as they do currently.

I feel the mesmer is slow enough as it is, making it even slower would just kill it for me.

The trait needs to be build into the mesmer baseline and then we can get a grandmaster trait that actually does something good but isn’t mandatory, like applying torment when you inflict confusion for example. Leaving the trait there at 25 points and then giving a 20% CD reduction baseline would still kill any other build out there, as it would make shatter builds godly OP compared to any other build out there.

DiogoSilva.7089:

If you think a 16 cooldown is stupidly high for a skill that stays on the field until it’s manually destroyed, then you should never touch an elementalist. :P

But anyway, with the proper setup, I usually don’t need to recast my phantasms that often in pve. Casting them once is usually enough to defeat a random pve mob.

Do fractals. The faster you can pump them out the better. This is a huge hit to my fractal build and I am furious. Being able to pump them out fast means you don’t hate yourself so much when using them as shredding food. Guess I have 5 points to work with in my build. TO THE BUILD CALCULATOR.

This change greatly saddens me. And I’m never one to ask for nerfs or buffs, or complain about class balance, but this change is going to cripple me.

I don’t get it, how can you swap a minor adept trait for a minor grandmaster without changing anything to it? hahaha its like they weren’t thinking at all when placing these traits before game was launched or what? this is anet for you lmao. Another thing, IC will replace shattered strength right? but what will happen to SS and what will be our minor adept trait? i don’t want something useless as Wastrel’s Punishment!

fadeaway.2807:

If they nerf shatter and blurred frenzy next, we’ll have nothing left.

You know, I’d stop playing Guild Wars 2 altogether… and that’s no bluff.

loks like the devs all main thieves and none of them plays a mesmer…..they keep overnerfing everything. and in wvw we need viable builds that attack multiple targets and not broken phantasms, not random conditions that only apply sometimes, not mantras and a moa that hit 1 target and i like to be able to pick my playstyle (which is more like a glam build, than a sword build. if i wanted a sword build or dps build i would go for a different class)

40 Sec Stealth and 16s Phantasm Summoning.

Indeed a huge loss. Well i;m gonna cry in my room’s corner for a bit…

All we can do is let our voice be heard throughout these forums about how game-changing this nerf is

Aneirin Cadwall.9126:

fadeaway.2807:

If they nerf shatter and blurred frenzy next, we’ll have nothing left.

You know, I’d stop playing Guild Wars 2 altogether… and that’s no bluff.

We have mind wrack and deceptive evasion left!!!! Luckily my fav mes builds are shatter builds (one of them is already dead confusion shatter) so i’ll accept IC nerf BUT if they nerf Mind Wrack and mostly important of them all, deceptive evasion, i won’t even come to this forum to express my feelings, just uninstall the game and don’t look back. DE nerf is probably the only skill that IF nerfed im out, and you know what? i think it will happen because there been hundreds of people crying cuz mes is like a clone factory… I just hope this happens after ps4 is released so i could quit for BF4 or something like that…

koolmutt.9827:

All we can do is let our voice be heard throughout these forums about how game-changing this nerf is

and the success will be as major as what happened after confusion nerf,,,,, NOTHING.

Nuka Cola.8520:

koolmutt.9827:

All we can do is let our voice be heard throughout these forums about how game-changing this nerf is

and the success will be as major as what happened after confusion nerf,,,,, NOTHING.

yeah anet doesnt wanna hear mesmers cry apparently. as long as thieves are happy all is good in gw2….:-(

DiogoSilva.7089:

[phantasm builds i.e. inspiration line] didn’t see more play because shatter builds bring very valuable team support with its utility.

Lol? Most of your posts here (e.g. “stays on the field until it’s manually destroyed”) are genuinely village joke materials. Your posts in ele forum are somewhat better, except the MH sword… thing.

I moved from a shatter spec mesmer to a hybrid balance mesmer, because I really wanted to diversify myself.

However, like others, I believe this change would just actually make me go back to the old and boring 30 pt illusions shatter build that I had tried to get away from in the first place.

Osicat.4139:

Personaly as a shatter mesmer from the start I only se posseblitys in the changes as I already run mandatory 30 in illsuions, BUT the beuty of the mesmer class is the flexibility to run different builds, not glad to se that get worse.

A diversity we never had.
Before this change there is one Phantasm build clearly superior to the others. After this change there is one Phantasm build clearly superior to the others.

The upside of the change is that IC “feels” like a 25-30 trait, and 30 would have been even more disastrous, say, IC vs IP as a final choice. Hrm, come to think of it that’d be fun.

Realistically, removing the trait is a better option, but I prefer this:

• Remove the -20% CD from the weapon traits. Give those traits a weapon-specific effect which fits the style of the weapon in question.
• Reduce all clone/phantasm CDs by ~25%.
• Double base health for Phantasms.
• Make IC reduce the remaining CD by 50% if the clone or phantasm spawned by an ability is killed while the skill is still on CD.

Carighan.6758:

Before this change there is one Phantasm build clearly superior to the others. After this change there is one Phantasm build clearly superior to the others.

This is absolutely false. There are several different very viable phantasm builds. You can choose to put 20 points into illusions for phantasmal haste (as I do in PvE for some very good reasons). You can choose to go deeper into chaos for survivability. You can choose to go deep into dueling for the crit damage and crit chance, or you can sacrifice some of that for more cooldowns on greatsword if you use that. There was a massive amount of diversity in phantasm builds….ruined by this change.

Pyro, is as usual, correct. Only needing 5 in illusions gave me the room to really play about with things. Up until patch I was having alot of fun with a modified build seven mirror made for me. but no longer it seems.

As someone who didn’t really play shatter, I do feel my options are greatly diminished which is disappointing. Still we will move on and play around with our toys as we always do. I know you guys wont take it lying down. The mes community is too good for that.

We always think of something. You can count on that much

its unbelievable, the patch isnt out yet and people start going mad and complain about build diversity.

sure, there have to be adjustments, but really….

fadeaway.2807:

As posted in another thread:

It is a much larger loss than you think. With cooldowns of 12 seconds on your two weapon sets a phantasm mesmer would use this rotation:
phantasm #1
swap weapon
phantasm #2
wait 12 seconds… phantasm #2
swap weapon
phantasm #1
wait 12 seconds… phantasm #1
swap weapon
phantasm #2
over and over…
The result was 2 phantasms every 12 seconds.

Using the same weapon swap logic we now get 2 phantasms every 16 seconds, or a 33% nerf in phantasms per second.

Under the new logic you will be waiting for the 48 second mark in a fight to unleash your third salvo of phantasms, previously it took just 36 seconds. Make no mistake, this is a huge nerf to phantasm builds.

I once did a lot of maths to come to the conclusion that is is absolutely essential for a phantasm build to have both the weapon trait AND illusionist’s celerity in order to maximise phantasms per second. For this reason I only ever used 10/30/0/25/5 with sw/sw + sw/pi, or 0/20/20/25/5 with sw/sw and staff.

Shatter vs phantasm was an even tossup prior to this. Those extra 4-6 seconds on the phantasms make this a nobrainer for me, it’s back to shatter I go. If shatter is nerfed next patch to complete the nerfing of every single decent mesmer spec I’ll swap mains.

I would have preferred a damage nerf due to target swapping and the increased hp per second the enemy would have to chew through if they decided to kill the phantasms (which in turn gave more retaliation damage back to them).

Don’t forget you also lose the cooldown buff to things like staff #2, greatsword #2 and sword #3. Not to mention decoy.

Phantasm spec almost requires signet of illusions now, but shatter spec is free to take something more useful.

Finally, anet said they do not balance around 1v1.

Shatter > phantasm by far for all modes of gameplay if this change goes through, and I’ve been a phantasm fan almost my whole lvl 80 life whether it be roaming, zerging, spvping or pveing, even through the confusion era.

If they nerf shatter and blurred frenzy next, we’ll have nothing left.

well I guess the huge amount of things the dev got to nerf to ‘balance’ mesmer simply go to show how massively OP you guys were. Maybe it’s time to taste what it feels like to be an underdog like BM ranger….

Note: that last part was a joke, but given the upcoming patchnote you guys are in the same boat.