Guild Wars 2

Well of Eternity – Now grants resistance per pulse rather than granting vigor (Why are we promoting DODGING in a well we need to stand inside!?)

… What say you!?

Illusionary Reversion – No longer has an illusion requirement, but is swapped with Seize the Moment.

Seize the moment: also works with IP (but possibly reduce the quickness per illusion)

About well of eternity: I would have preferred some condi removal, but resistance is next best (and allows not to step too much on null field).

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Illusionary Reversion – No longer has an illusion requirement, but is swapped with Seize the Moment.

A main hand weapon like dagger instead of an offhand but don’t get me wrong the shield is awesome. But man i would love some variety on the main hands

Rework the “wells will give you something in 3 seconds” mechanic OR give me some other way to gain alacrity in large scale fights where I don’t have the luxury of shattering 3 illusions all the time (and no, sitting in a well for 2s alacrity is not a good solution for that).

Silverkey.2078:

Seize the moment: also works with IP (but possibly reduce the quickness per illusion)

About well of eternity: I would have preferred some condi removal, but resistance is next best (and allows not to step too much on null field).

Assuming decent duration, resistance is vastly superior to removal because

• It has no condi limit

• It can be activated preemptively or retroactively.

• It provides a superior gameplay mechanic, the details of which are far more superior a topic for here :)

Ross Biddle.2367:

Assuming decent duration, resistance is vastly superior to removal because

• It has no condi limit

• It can be activated preemptively or retroactively.

• It provides a superior gameplay mechanic, the details of which are far more superior a topic for here

I accept the argument. It is basically immunity to conditions for at least 3s (assuming it ticks 1s resistance), which is particularly strong against burst conditions like burning, which to be honest is the main condition you want to avoid.

I guess I was still locked in the mindset that during BWE1 I used the trait to remove conditions on wells which I missed a lot in BWE2 (I had to use null field).

Silverkey.2078:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Assuming decent duration, resistance is vastly superior to removal because

• It has no condi limit

• It can be activated preemptively or retroactively.

• It provides a superior gameplay mechanic, the details of which are far more superior a topic for here

I accept the argument. It is basically immunity to conditions for at least 3s (assuming it ticks 1s resistance), which is particularly strong against burst conditions like burning, which to be honest is the main condition you want to avoid.

I guess I was still locked in the mindset that during BWE1 I used the trait to remove conditions on wells which I missed a lot in BWE2 (I had to use null field).

I run signit heal on my kshot war, no defensive line, zerker shout, rifle sw/wh. When the kitten hits the fan, im getting focused, dumped with condi’s and burst hard, activating that signit grants 5s of resistance which allows me to shrug off not just the damage condi’s, but all that imob, cripple, chill, etc so I can leap out of the fray and make for a hidey hole.

It’s a really, really great feeling mechanically.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Silverkey.2078:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Assuming decent duration, resistance is vastly superior to removal because

• It has no condi limit

• It can be activated preemptively or retroactively.

• It provides a superior gameplay mechanic, the details of which are far more superior a topic for here

I accept the argument. It is basically immunity to conditions for at least 3s (assuming it ticks 1s resistance), which is particularly strong against burst conditions like burning, which to be honest is the main condition you want to avoid.

I guess I was still locked in the mindset that during BWE1 I used the trait to remove conditions on wells which I missed a lot in BWE2 (I had to use null field).

I run signit heal on my kshot war, no defensive line, zerker shout, rifle sw/wh. When the kitten hits the fan, im getting focused, dumped with condi’s and burst hard, activating that signit grants 5s of resistance which allows me to shrug off not just the damage condi’s, but all that imob, cripple, chill, etc so I can leap out of the fray and make for a hidey hole.

It’s a really, really great feeling mechanically.

But is the 3s you’d get from the Well enough, esp since you’ve gotta sit in the well to get it?

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Silverkey.2078:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Assuming decent duration, resistance is vastly superior to removal because

• It has no condi limit

• It can be activated preemptively or retroactively.

• It provides a superior gameplay mechanic, the details of which are far more superior a topic for here

I accept the argument. It is basically immunity to conditions for at least 3s (assuming it ticks 1s resistance), which is particularly strong against burst conditions like burning, which to be honest is the main condition you want to avoid.

I guess I was still locked in the mindset that during BWE1 I used the trait to remove conditions on wells which I missed a lot in BWE2 (I had to use null field).

I run signit heal on my kshot war, no defensive line, zerker shout, rifle sw/wh. When the kitten hits the fan, im getting focused, dumped with condi’s and burst hard, activating that signit grants 5s of resistance which allows me to shrug off not just the damage condi’s, but all that imob, cripple, chill, etc so I can leap out of the fray and make for a hidey hole.

It’s a really, really great feeling mechanically.

But is the 3s you’d get from the Well enough, esp since you’ve gotta sit in the well to get it?

It needs to be on activation, otherwise it might as well be a passive proc, not utilized in any meaningful, intentionally skillful way (You’re just hoping it happens to do something). If activating it retroactively you already have the well cast time in the way, which could be under the effect of slow for all you know. Currently instant cleanse skills are the only way to go in terms of cleansing play. Cast times are death. Waiting 3 seconds in a well for resistance is to little to late. Also, increasing how much resistance you’d get won’t change this fact.

Resistance is clutch. The race will be lost if you don’t get into gear in a timely fashion :p

Ross Biddle.2367:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Silverkey.2078:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Assuming decent duration, resistance is vastly superior to removal because

• It has no condi limit

• It can be activated preemptively or retroactively.

• It provides a superior gameplay mechanic, the details of which are far more superior a topic for here

I accept the argument. It is basically immunity to conditions for at least 3s (assuming it ticks 1s resistance), which is particularly strong against burst conditions like burning, which to be honest is the main condition you want to avoid.

I guess I was still locked in the mindset that during BWE1 I used the trait to remove conditions on wells which I missed a lot in BWE2 (I had to use null field).

I run signit heal on my kshot war, no defensive line, zerker shout, rifle sw/wh. When the kitten hits the fan, im getting focused, dumped with condi’s and burst hard, activating that signit grants 5s of resistance which allows me to shrug off not just the damage condi’s, but all that imob, cripple, chill, etc so I can leap out of the fray and make for a hidey hole.

It’s a really, really great feeling mechanically.

But is the 3s you’d get from the Well enough, esp since you’ve gotta sit in the well to get it?

It needs to be on activation, otherwise it might as well be a passive proc, not utilized in any meaningful, intentionally skillful way (You’re just hoping it happens to do something). If activating it retroactively you already have the well cast time in the way, which could be under the effect of slow for all you know. Currently instant cleanse skills are the only way to go in terms of cleansing play. Cast times are death. Waiting 3 seconds in a well for resistance is to little to late. Also, increasing how much resistance you’d get won’t change this fact.

Resistance is clutch. The race will be lost if you don’t get into gear in a timely fashion :p

I meant in terms of replacing Vigor, as it gives vigor with every pulse. It starts when activated just like Time Warp, but just like TW you need to stay in the well for the duration to get the full benefit.
They’re pretty attached to the pulses doing something in our wells, I don’t think they’re likely to just put the entire resistance at the front.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Ross Biddle.2367:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Silverkey.2078:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Assuming decent duration, resistance is vastly superior to removal because

• It has no condi limit

• It can be activated preemptively or retroactively.

• It provides a superior gameplay mechanic, the details of which are far more superior a topic for here :)

I accept the argument. It is basically immunity to conditions for at least 3s (assuming it ticks 1s resistance), which is particularly strong against burst conditions like burning, which to be honest is the main condition you want to avoid.

I guess I was still locked in the mindset that during BWE1 I used the trait to remove conditions on wells which I missed a lot in BWE2 (I had to use null field).

I run signit heal on my kshot war, no defensive line, zerker shout, rifle sw/wh. When the kitten hits the fan, im getting focused, dumped with condi’s and burst hard, activating that signit grants 5s of resistance which allows me to shrug off not just the damage condi’s, but all that imob, cripple, chill, etc so I can leap out of the fray and make for a hidey hole.

It’s a really, really great feeling mechanically.

But is the 3s you’d get from the Well enough, esp since you’ve gotta sit in the well to get it?

It needs to be on activation, otherwise it might as well be a passive proc, not utilized in any meaningful, intentionally skillful way (You’re just hoping it happens to do something). If activating it retroactively you already have the well cast time in the way, which could be under the effect of slow for all you know. Currently instant cleanse skills are the only way to go in terms of cleansing play. Cast times are death. Waiting 3 seconds in a well for resistance is to little to late. Also, increasing how much resistance you’d get won’t change this fact.

Resistance is clutch. The race will be lost if you don’t get into gear in a timely fashion :p

I meant in terms of replacing Vigor, as it gives vigor with every pulse. It starts when activated just like Time Warp, but just like TW you need to stay in the well for the duration to get the full benefit.
They’re pretty attached to the pulses doing something in our wells, I don’t think they’re likely to just put the entire resistance at the front.

1s resistance pulsing for 3 seconds would be fine. That’d give you (counterable) condition resistance (since they’re still applied, and resistance can be stripped, or the caster removed from the well) for the duration, meaning you could tank and “sustain” a fight on a point under various forms of assault.

If they wanted to be really nice they’d give baseline 1.5s resistance on pulse for 3 s :p

I’d want Flow of Time changed to “Gain alacrity when you generate an illusion”.

Still rewards shattering because shattering your illusions is a lot more beneficial than overwriting them, but a meaningful amount of alacrity can still be gained in larger-scale fights where things are dying too fast to set up a shatter or there is too much AoE to get clones up.

Continuum shift shouldn’t completely refund everything mesmer used up during the time frame after activation of the continuum split, it should have rng, kind of like thief improvisation…. i tried chrono during BWE and it just seemed too rewarding to get everything back.

I am not sure if it is a bug, but i wasn’t able to destroy continuum rift (or affect it by anything), enemy should be able to do it for counterplay imo.

Cynz.9437:

Continuum shift shouldn’t completely refund everything mesmer used up during the time frame after activation of the continuum split, it should have rng, kind of like thief improvisation…. i tried chrono during BWE and it just seemed too rewarding to get everything back.

That’s a bad idea. Unreliability in a major mechanic = bad major mechanic, unless the choices are roughly equivalent. Nothing the mesmer gets back is equivalent, so blowing through things in CS without knowing whether you’ll get any of it back is…insane. You’d kill the viability of f5 instantly. It’s amazing how bad this idea is.

Cynz.9437:

I am not sure if it is a bug, but i wasn’t able to destroy continuum rift (or affect it by anything), enemy should be able to do it for counterplay imo.

Quite odd. I’ve been able to destroy it just fine. It’s a great way to counter.

Curunen.8729:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Illusionary Reversion – No longer has an illusion requirement, but is swapped with Seize the Moment.

Could someone please explain the logic of this terrible nerf some of you are advocating? I fail to see how this would do anything but cement DE/Dueling as a must-have line for all shatter builds.

With IR and CP you can do very well without DE for both Power or even Condition shatter builds. Please don’t ask to have that taken away by such a silly idea as to make us choose between the two.

This would kill off Chronomancy as a viable specialization for Condition Shatter builds, and with that really kinda kill the whole idea thanks to the huge MtD nerf, which was clearly implemented due to Chronomancy in the first place! Being forced into DE/Dueling would mean a single build path for Condition Shatter, and it would leave you very very vulnerable without being able to take up either Chaos or Insp.

Terrible idea…sorry.

Give illusions aoe/cleave immunity, vulnerable to only single targeted attacks directed at them.

Windwalker.7421:

Could someone please explain the logic of this terrible nerf some of you are advocating? I fail to see how this would do anything but cement DE/Dueling as a must-have line for all shatter builds.

Say what?
IR without an illusion requirement is a pure clone generator. With the alacrity from shatters, any build will be generating clones competitive with (in some cases better than) DE. If shatter builds do fine now with DE, how would a trait that is competitive with it require taking DE as well?

Windwalker.7421:

With IR and CP you can do very well without DE for both Power or even Condition shatter builds. Please don’t ask to have that taken away by such a silly idea as to make us choose between the two.

Key point: “and CP”.
1. Without the 2-illusion requirement, IR+CP gave too much on the opening burst. Adding in DE just made it ridiculous, but DE+IR wasn’t bad, as using DE required spacing out the shatters. Remember that it’s the fast shatter-chains that Robert was concerned with.
2. With the 2-illusion requirement, you’ve had 2 general camps of people in the forums: those who think IR is just fine, and those who don’t. Surprise surprise, those who think it’s just fine are also those who always took Chronophantasma with it. Those who don’t, more often than not, were those who did NOT take CP at the same time.

It is bad design if a master trait is great with a specific GM, but terrible without it

Windwalker.7421:

This would kill off Chronomancy as a viable specialization for Condition Shatter builds,

Absolutely, unequivocally untrue. I ran condi shatter in BWE1 with and without CP, and I can say that it was great with both. I also tried it with CP but not IR, and that was decent as well, but more reliant on getting the phantasm rotations down.

• CP without IR is great.
• Unnerfed IR without CP is great.
• Nerfed IR without CP is trash
• Nerfed IR with CP is nearly the same as unnerfed IR with CP (just a lot more complicated)
• Unnerfed IR with CP allows overpowered shatter-bursts.

Windwalker.7421:

and with that really kinda kill the whole idea thanks to the huge MtD nerf, which was clearly implemented due to Chronomancy in the first place!

No, it was clearly implemented because there was a lot of whining on the forums. The entire history of that nerf speaks for itself, you’re resorting to hyperbole to back up an insufficiently reasoned point.

Windwalker.7421:

Being forced into DE/Dueling would mean a single build path for Condition Shatter,

I repeat, you’ve given no good reasoning behind your assertion that DE would be required, especially compared to the current 2-illusion regime.
I refer you also to my point above, having tested all the different permutations of CP, IR, StM and DE in BWE1, I can say that they were all fine for condi shatter, and my preference actually ran to IR+StM rather than CP+IR (I wasn’t interested in the super-chains, and I don’t enjoy doing the Chronophantasma juggle).

Windwalker.7421:

and it would leave you very very vulnerable without being able to take up either Chaos or Insp.

How does that make any sense? CP+IR has 0 defensive value, not being able to take both doesn’t magically make up for the defensive traits of Chaos or Inspiration as it is.

I perfectly agree with AlphatheWhite. As I see it, CP should be a great trait for every mesmer wanting to play a phantasm playstyle in PvP (which is currently possible but not that easy). iRev clearly is more for shatter-oriented mesmers who can now live more comfortably without DE. In particular, new type of supporty builds become possible with chrono instead of dueling. Instead, we have people taking DE + CP + iRev and wreck everything because of an excessive shatter cadence (especially condi since power is limited by the CD of MW).

Alacrity: Instead of cooldown reduction, Applies a stacking (with quickness) attack speed increase to allies and self.

thetarot.8246:

Alacrity: Instead of cooldown reduction, Applies a stacking (with quickness) attack speed increase to allies and self.

Not gonna lie, this is the worst idea in the while thread, though Cynz’s usual mesmer-gutting suggestion comes close.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

It is bad design if a master trait is great with a specific GM, but terrible without it

Purely as an aside, I disagree with this. This is called “synergy” and is not bad design.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Absolutely, unequivocally untrue. I ran condi shatter in BWE1 with and without CP, and I can say that it was great with both.

Ahh OK, so because you played it and feel it was “great” then I guess that must be so! I guess my own experience was wrong then! /getoveryourself

Sorry, but Condie Shatter couldn’t have been “great” as even with IR+CP and DE it wasn’t and isn’t “great”, and certainly not since the MtD nerf. It’s was/is at best “barely viable” against semi-competent opponents.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

No, it was clearly implemented because there was a lot of whining on the forums. The entire history of that nerf speaks for itself, you’re resorting to hyperbole to back up an insufficiently reasoned point.

Agree with the first sentence at least. As for hyperbole and the “insufficiently reasoned point” remark, I retort that you’re a bit quick to resorting to personal attacks based purely on your own subjective opinion.

Condition Shatter is hardly in a good spot right now, and is looking to be largely worse off than before the recent patches. Since it was not even considered to be a viable alternative to Power Shatter then, by accounts of the majority of Mesmers on this board and in game, it isn’t exaggerated to claim that any change that further negatively impacts the Condition Shatter playstyle might relegate it to a worse “niche build” spot than it was before the recent patches.

Unlike you (apparently), I do not believe that the unnerfed IR alone is enough to replace DE/Dueling. This means that if we do what you propose, then even with CP or IR, I will need DE for adequate illusion generation. That means we’re right back at the same bad design as before, requiring Dueling for any remotely competitive shatter build.

You claim insufficient reasoning, but please name me a Power Shatter Chronomancer build that won’t take Dueling? What are you going to drop Dueling for? Chaos? Insp? Ill? Please! Dueling just has way too much to offer to Power Shatter.

So we still have Dueling as a must have for the most popular Mesmer shatter build. So why are we discussing changing IR to compete with CP? Are we improving build diversity with that, or do we want to keep the BWE1 IR at all cost, even if it means screwing over other potential builds in the process?

Another question for you. Will your proposed change decrease the illusion generation for non-Dueling Chronomancers over what they had in BWE2? The only truthful answer is a resounding yes! Obviously! Duh! That alone is proof enough that my reasoning is quite sound, thank you very much!

AlphatheWhite.9351:

I repeat, you’ve given no good reasoning behind your assertion that DE would be required, especially compared to the current 2-illusion regime.

lol! Now you’re just getting silly. No good reason? Assertion? DE has been a requirement for shatter builds for the entire game’s existence! This is a fact shared by pretty much anyone who has ever had a clue about any form of shatter-based Mesmer play. People have time and again tried to create Shatter builds that didn’t take DE, but they all failed miserably in presenting these builds as being competitive/viable. Do you deny this?

So having established that DE is in fact a requirement for shatter based play right now, please tell me how we will replace DE as a must-have skill for Chronomancers? By nerfing it’s illusion generation capabilities? Surely you jest! That’s some sound logic right there! lol! If anyone is lacking good reasoning here, it is you!

There are plenty of people who feel that even the unnerfed IR + CP was not enough to replace the reliable clone generation of DE for Power Shatter builds. How do you think that either CP or IR alone will stack up to DE? They won’t. Period. What you’re proposing makes no sense from a build diversity point of view, as it leaves DE as a requirement for shatter-based play. (Which has become even more fundamental to Mesmers than before!.)

AlphatheWhite.9351:

How does that make any sense? CP+IR has 0 defensive value, not being able to take both doesn’t magically make up for the defensive traits of Chaos or Inspiration as it is.

I can’t believe I have to explain this, but it makes me wonder if you did in fact play Condition Shatter Mesmer before at all. How does it not make sense? It’s not CP+IR that gives defense, it’s the lack of Dueling/DE as a required specline that —if required-- would absolutely pigeonhole Condition Shatter Chronomancers into a single build! (Chrono/Ill/Dueling)

And without Chronomancy, the whole Condition Shatter concept is lacking in viability anyway, thanks to the harshness of the MtD nerf! So there would be no alternative to the above mentioned build. You need the F5 mechanic to churn out enough Confusion + Torment to be remotely competitive as an AE Condition applying class. What you do not absolutely need is Dueling! Yeah it’s a lovely line, even for Condition Shatter, and DE is still highly desirable. Some/many will still choose to go Duel/Chrono/Ill, and that’s great it should be a strong option! (note build diversity!) However, even in the BWE2 state of IR, you do not absolutely need DE/Dueling, and gaining the defense from Chaos or Inspiration is also highly desirable for a build-concept designed around damage over time.

If you move IR to GM and make it compete with CP rather than synergizing with it, you all but cement DE as a requirement for Condition Shatter builds. (And IMO other potential newer builds as well, such as tanky/bunker style builds.) That not only stymies build diversity, but leaves Condition Shatter weaker defensively than ever before. (and arguably it is already offensively weaker thanks to the MtD & Torch Burn nerfs)

Windwalker.7421:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Absolutely, unequivocally untrue. I ran condi shatter in BWE1 with and without CP, and I can say that it was great with both.

Ahh OK, so because you played it and feel it was “great” then I guess that must be so! I guess my own experience was wrong then! /getoveryourself

Sorry, but Condie Shatter couldn’t have been “great” as even with IR+CP and DE it wasn’t and isn’t “great”, and certainly not since the MtD nerf. It’s was/is at best “barely viable” against semi-competent opponents.

While we should not listen to QQing to estimate the efficiency of a build, condi shatter is considered (with a solid consensus) the most OP build in WvW, and still strong in PvP.

Condition Shatter is hardly in a good spot right now, and is looking to be largely worse off than before the recent patches. Since it was not even considered to be a viable alternative to Power Shatter then, by accounts of the majority of Mesmers on this board and in game, it isn’t exaggerated to claim that any change that further negatively impacts the Condition Shatter playstyle might relegate it to a worse “niche build” spot than it was before the recent patches.

The idea is not to make condi shatter worse, it is to prevent a massive shatter cadence with full illusion count which is very easy with IR + CP, especially with alacrity baseline (basically you can shatter off-CD you will always have enough illusions without even trying).

Unlike you (apparently), I do not believe that the unnerfed IR alone is enough to replace DE/Dueling. This means that if we do what you propose, then even with CP or IR, I will need DE for adequate illusion generation. That means we’re right back at the same bad design as before, requiring Dueling for any remotely competitive shatter build.

iRev and DE are not identical. Noone will replace the other, but they both allow a fairly similar shatter production. Let’s try some maths: if I believe wiki, endurance regens at 5%/s meaning one dodge every 10s. Vigor increases this by 50%, so one dodge every ca 6s.

MW has about 10s CD, CoF, every 20s. That’s 3 shatter every 20s, hence 1 shatter every ca 6s… So you have 1 extra clone every 6s. But because you have alacrity, your shatter are actually on a lower CD so you gain potentially much more.

Actually, I do not want unnerfed IRev, ideally I would like iRev on kitten iCD AND moved to compete with CP.

You claim insufficient reasoning, but please name me a Power Shatter Chronomancer build that won’t take Dueling? What are you going to drop Dueling for? Chaos? Insp? Ill? Please! Dueling just has way too much to offer to Power Shatter.

Dueling is mostly useful for its GM: DE is a staple, some people go for a mantra based. Everything else is not nearly as useful as what can be found in other lines. Chrono replaces dueling very advantageously. Domination + chaos + chronomancer would be my go-to power shatter build.

So we still have Dueling as a must have for the most popular Mesmer shatter build. So why are we discussing changing IR to compete with CP? Are we improving build diversity with that, or do we want to keep the BWE1 IR at all cost, even if it means screwing over other potential builds in the process?

IR in BWE1 was filling a role it does not anymore: generating illusions when you don’t have many other sources of it (meaning without DE and CP). Now it needs one or the other to work properly.

Another question for you. Will your proposed change decrease the illusion generation for non-Dueling Chronomancers over what they had in BWE2? The only truthful answer is a resounding yes! Obviously! Duh! That alone is proof enough that my reasoning is quite sound, thank you very much!

It will decrease the max number obtainable (which is currently DE+CP+iR) but increases the minimum number for those who have no CP nor DE.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

I repeat, you’ve given no good reasoning behind your assertion that DE would be required, especially compared to the current 2-illusion regime.

lol! Now you’re just getting silly. No good reason? Assertion? DE has been a requirement for shatter builds for the entire game’s existence! This is a fact shared by pretty much anyone who has ever had a clue about any form of shatter-based Mesmer play. People have time and again tried to create Shatter builds that didn’t take DE, but they all failed miserably in presenting these builds as being competitive/viable. Do you deny this?

Some people run domination,dueling, inspiration with a mantra build (so no DE), even in ESLs (more before the mantra nerf, but some still do it). Add iRev or CP and DE is definitely not needed to have a viable clone generation

So in general, I could not disagree more with every single word you write…

Seeing as you (all) have already covered all the points regarding IR and Cp, I’ll just say one thing:

I ran a condi shatter build all weekend of BWE2 and switched from IR to Improved Alacrity which is by far the better choice while IR is in its current state. Without Improved Alacrity now, there is a noticeable difference in alacrity uptime.

Between Cp, DE and alacrity, it was easy to max shatters. So I don’t particularly care about this proposal because I plan to use Improved Alacrity + Cp anyway.

I will admit, if wanting to run something like Chaos/Illusions/Chrono or Domination/Illusions/Chrono then IR+Cp would be a useful choice for illusion generation. With Inspiration/Illusion/Chrono, IR is unnecessary thanks to the all trait synergy on phantasms.

Fay.2357:

thetarot.8246:

Alacrity: Instead of cooldown reduction, Applies a stacking (with quickness) attack speed increase to allies and self.

Not gonna lie, this is the worst idea in the while thread, though Cynz’s usual mesmer-gutting suggestion comes close.

Would you kindly provide an intelligent reason as to WHY that is? Over the usual, simpleton response, more fitting for someone playing thief, saying to a mesmer ‘PU is OP’ without any context.

Alacrity is utterly pathetic , with it’s short duration, and adds nothing to any game mode, other than the almost ‘random’ element of skewing your predictions on when abilities will be refreshed.

thetarot.8246:

Alacrity is utterly pathetic

The maximum potential on alacrity is reducing the cooldown of skills by 33%. That’s far from pathetic.

thetarot.8246:

with it’s short duration,

So short that I can keep it up on an entire party for 35 solid seconds on a 45 second cooldown, and easily permanent on myself in a variety of builds.

thetarot.8246:

and adds nothing to any game mode, other than the almost ‘random’ element of skewing your predictions on when abilities will be refreshed.

Adds nothing other than a drastic increase in the rate at which skills can be used.

Ultimately, it’s just an issue with your use of it. You’re obviously using it wrong, and that makes it seem bad to you.

Fay.2357:

thetarot.8246:

Alacrity is utterly pathetic

The maximum potential on alacrity is reducing the cooldown of skills by 33%. That’s far from pathetic.

A meaningless statement of the obvious. It’s like saying. “Did you know that 3 Phantasm always up on a boss, that never dies, does a lot of damage?”

Fay.2357:

thetarot.8246:

with it’s short duration,

So short that I can keep it up on an entire party for 35 solid seconds on a 45 second cooldown, and easily permanent on myself in a variety of builds.

This is relevant, and I thank you for it, If in fact, the information was not done on ‘Paper’ and in a real, relevent, situation, Such as sPvP, PvE, or WvW, and not during target dummy test where all your stars are aligned.

Edit: I know engrish.

thetarot.8246:

Fay.2357:

thetarot.8246:

Alacrity: Instead of cooldown reduction, Applies a stacking (with quickness) attack speed increase to allies and self.

Not gonna lie, this is the worst idea in the while thread, though Cynz’s usual mesmer-gutting suggestion comes close.

Would you kindly provide an intelligent reason as to WHY that is? Over the usual, simpleton response, more fitting for someone playing thief, saying to a mesmer ‘PU is OP’ without any context.

Alacrity is utterly pathetic , with it’s short duration, and adds nothing to any game mode, other than the almost ‘random’ element of skewing your predictions on when abilities will be refreshed.

Because alacrity is amazing, with its long duration, and adds enormous benefit to any game mode, despite the almost “random” element of skewing your predictions on when abilities will be refreshed.

100% alacrity uptime = 40% cdr on all abilities. That 100% uptime is very reachable on a chronomancer, in fact the build Pyro tested keeps it up handily, and more “pure” versions of the well support builds can keep it up even longer.

Crunching numbers, I was able to theorycraft a mesmer build that keeps 74% alacrity uptime on teammates, which works out to 33% cooldown reduction on teammates’ abilities (40% on your own). This is the build Pyro is referencing, that he based his testing build on.
In addition, the build is able to keep up 100% quickness uptime.

I did further math regarding dps, and found that even if the support chrono (Jet Lag) dealt no personal damage at all, they would add more dps to a dps party than an elementalist.

Quickness is one culprit, yes, but alacrity is the other. 30% cdr is a LOT of cdr, especially on all skills, especially stacking with whatever cdr players already have. Quickness is only half of the dps equation, the other half is cooldown reduction, and alacrity is the only game in town.

thetarot.8246:

This is relevant, and I thank you for it, If in fact, the information was not done on ‘Paper’ and in a real, relevent, situation, Such as sPvP, PvE, or WvW, and not during target dummy test where all your stars are aligned.

Lol at the attempt to imply his math isn’t practical.

I did the “on paper” math.

Pyro took the concept and ran it in pvp, dungeons and elsewhere, and found it effective.

In practice, my theorizing on uptime, while technically accurate, was overthinking it. What Pyro found that what’s important is continuous time, to hasten encounters, and 34s of continuous uptime was plenty for all his needs.

I should calculate what kind of uptime you can get with his rotation, though.

thetarot.8246:

Fay.2357:

thetarot.8246:

Alacrity is utterly pathetic

The maximum potential on alacrity is reducing the cooldown of skills by 33%. That’s far from pathetic.

A meaningless statement of the obvious. It’s like saying. “Did you know that 3 Phantasm always up on a boss, that never dies, does a lot of damage?”

Fay.2357:

thetarot.8246:

with it’s short duration,

So short that I can keep it up on an entire party for 35 solid seconds on a 45 second cooldown, and easily permanent on myself in a variety of builds.

This is relevant, and I thank you for it, If in fact, the information was not done on ‘Paper’ and in a real, relevent, situation, Such as sPvP, PvE, or WvW, and not during target dummy test where all your stars are aligned.

Edit: I know engrish.

Yes, I tested it in all paths of ac, multiple paths of CM, CoF, SE, Arah, CoE, and TA. Not only does it do 35 seconds of solid alacrity, it also does 35 seconds of solid quickness at the same time. It also shares ~10 partywide might, maintains roughly 60-70% uptime on partywide vigor, and ends up with a partywide hps from the heal well alone of over 300, all while doing decent mesmer-range damage.

PvP it’s less effective but still gets you pretty significant alacrity duration with a good rotation. WvW…would not recommend tbh.

Math on paper, and target dummies, are not ideal circumstances to check potency of abilities in regards to anything, More so, on Mesmer, than any other profession.

I’m not asking for ‘screenshots’ or ‘videos’ . Just for durations mentioned not to be an exaggeration in a situation that isn’t an actual game mode. A perfect situation to test rotations is one thing, Keeping it up in an actual fight, be in in a boss fight, sPvP or any aspect of actual play is another.

thetarot.8246:

Math on paper, and target dummies, are not ideal circumstances to check potency of abilities in regards to anything, More so, on Mesmer, than any other profession.

I’m not asking for ‘screenshots’ or ‘videos’ . Just for durations mentioned not to be an exaggeration in a situation that isn’t an actual game mode. A perfect situation to test rotations is one thing, Keeping it up in an actual fight, be in in a boss fight, sPvP or any aspect of actual play is another.

Here’s the rotation, along with a bit of discussion about the effectiveness: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Swiftness-and-Boon-sharing-Herald-vs-Mesmer/first#post5464793

Disregarding group Alacrity, it is very, very easy to get high Alacrity uptime on yourself just by Shattering frequently, and Alacrity helps you to Shatter even more frequently; giving you even more Alacrity, and…

If all you played during the Beta was PvE and never Shattered because that’s how non-Chrono Mesmers play, then of course you won’t see any Alacrity.

Fay.2357:

WvW…would not recommend tbh.

I’m still curious what a 2-chrono team with 100% boon duration could do for a zerg raid. 100% quickness uptime raid-wide?

Also just on a theme PoV, we don’t need 2 buffs doing the same thing.
A damage rotation (when it is not 1111111) can be buffed by quickness to make each attack faster, but if your burst skill is still on cooldown, you won’t get the ideal 50% damage increase. For example: ranger now uses longbow in its rotation and does 2-5-2 for high burst DPS before the weapon swap is off-CD, add quickness to that and you barely increase the DPS. Add quickness + alacrity and you do. Both synergise well together.

Fay.2357:

thetarot.8246:

Fay.2357:

thetarot.8246:

Alacrity is utterly pathetic

The maximum potential on alacrity is reducing the cooldown of skills by 33%. That’s far from pathetic.

A meaningless statement of the obvious. It’s like saying. “Did you know that 3 Phantasm always up on a boss, that never dies, does a lot of damage?”

Fay.2357:

thetarot.8246:

with it’s short duration,

So short that I can keep it up on an entire party for 35 solid seconds on a 45 second cooldown, and easily permanent on myself in a variety of builds.

This is relevant, and I thank you for it, If in fact, the information was not done on ‘Paper’ and in a real, relevent, situation, Such as sPvP, PvE, or WvW, and not during target dummy test where all your stars are aligned.

Edit: I know engrish.

Yes, I tested it in all paths of ac, multiple paths of CM, CoF, SE, Arah, CoE, and TA. Not only does it do 35 seconds of solid alacrity, it also does 35 seconds of solid quickness at the same time. It also shares ~10 partywide might, maintains roughly 60-70% uptime on partywide vigor, and ends up with a partywide hps from the heal well alone of over 300, all while doing decent mesmer-range damage.

PvP it’s less effective but still gets you pretty significant alacrity duration with a good rotation. WvW…would not recommend tbh.

I can confirm the build works. It’s a tad less effective in fractal 50 where the aoe spam is massive, and bosses like molten duo can and will kill the split early, but it’s a powerful and fun build nevertheless.

In fact, this version of alacrity is entirely what will keep us solidly in the meta of any raid. Allowing elementalists to cast meteor shower and ice bow more often is absolutely ridiculous.

I DO NOT SUPPORT STACKING QUICKNESS. This game does not need more ridiculous burst and going above 50% quickness is just retreading the old quickness which went to 100% and was nerfed down to 50% FOR A REASON.

Windwalker.7421:

lol! Now you’re just getting silly. No good reason? Assertion? DE has been a requirement for shatter builds for the entire game’s existence! This is a fact shared by pretty much anyone who has ever had a clue about any form of shatter-based Mesmer play. People have time and again tried to create Shatter builds that didn’t take DE, but they all failed miserably in presenting these builds as being competitive/viable. Do you deny this?

Wasn’t the harmonious mantras trait, that’s incompatible with deceptive evasion nerfed due to PvP shatter builds?

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_Mantra_Shatter

Even the elitist website still considers it good, even after the nerfs.

Eponet.4829:

Windwalker.7421:

lol! Now you’re just getting silly. No good reason? Assertion? DE has been a requirement for shatter builds for the entire game’s existence! This is a fact shared by pretty much anyone who has ever had a clue about any form of shatter-based Mesmer play. People have time and again tried to create Shatter builds that didn’t take DE, but they all failed miserably in presenting these builds as being competitive/viable. Do you deny this?

Wasn’t the harmonious mantras trait, that’s incompatible with deceptive evasion nerfed due to PvP shatter builds?

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_Mantra_Shatter

Even the elitist website still considers it good, even after the nerfs.

They don’t consider it good. It’s the only grandmaster trait from dueling you CAN use.

You’re not gonna use deceptive evasion on a build that relies on phantasms, and confusion to nearby enemies on interrupt is unspeakable garbage.

In every way Harmonious Mantras in PvE is just a crappier, more clunky version of warrior’s Berserker’s Power.

They get 20% damage boost for 10 seconds upon using a single burst skill, which is easily done as you can build 3 adrenaline bars in less than even 6 seconds. So it’s 100% uptime.

Harmonious Mantras gives you 8 crappy seconds of a 3% boost PER MANTRA CHARGE, meaning you use 5 charges for a maximum 15% bonus, except you can’t even maintain the 5 stacks bonus at all. You’re lucky if you can maintain 3 stacks by chain casting mantra of pain and doing nothing else for a measly 9% bonus, less than half of the benefit from Berserker’s Power.

The nerf to Harmonious Mantras was detestable and unnecessary for PvE mesmers, but as usual we get screwed for PvP whine because the developers only care for the PvP aspect of the game.

Zenith.7301:

The nerf to Harmonious Mantras was detestable and unnecessary for PvE mesmers, but as usual we get screwed for PvP whine because the developers only care for the PvP aspect of the game.

To be fair, it was a stupid nerf from a PvP point of view too… The only reason mantras were OP in PvP was confounding suggestion. But confounding suggestion is still there and mantras are dead. So they did reduce the powers of mantras but also

• reduced build diversity
• nerfed PvE mesmers

Just a note: the link to metabattle was a PvP link, while it looks like you commented it as if it was a link to the PvE build.

Mantras were OP because of the background recharge “bug”. Instead of just fixing the “bug” and see if things calm down they decided they might as well nerf Mantras while they’re at it.

The “bug” needs to return in a more manageable form (increased Mantra CDs, only kicking in after first charge is expended in combat, etc.), or Mantra builds won’t see the light of day again.

Embolism.8106:

Mantras were OP because of the background recharge “bug”. Instead of just fixing the “bug” and see if things calm down they decided they might as well nerf Mantras while they’re at it.

The “bug” needs to return in a more manageable form (increased Mantra CDs, only kicking in after first charge is expended in combat, etc.), or Mantra builds won’t see the light of day again.

Devs don’t care. They nerfed ranger spirits into oblivion and they’re never used again in PvP, didn’t care about the overnerf.

They nerfed dhuumfire and it’s not going to be used until reaper in most builds.

They nerfed ranger shortbow shortly into release and it hasn’t seen the light of day.

Zenith.7301:

Devs don’t care. They nerfed ranger spirits into oblivion and they’re never used again in PvP, didn’t care about the overnerf.

They nerfed dhuumfire and it’s not going to be used until reaper in most builds.

They nerfed ranger shortbow shortly into release and it hasn’t seen the light of day.

I know Nemesis is not really the most popular character in gw2, but I do wonder sometimes if there is no truth when he suggests that devs are just shaking the PvP balance from time to time, voluntarily creating OP builds and then nerfing them into oblivion to keep some variety in PvP and keep people interested in a game mode that hasn’t seen much changes for 3 years.

I personally think that a well-balanced game with high build diversity would be much better, but I can understand that changing the meta every now and then can be a good (and cheap) way to keep the interest of players…

Sadly the meta for PvE has barely changed. Necros and rangers have been pariahs for the entire game’s existence, and mesmers have always lost in favor to guardians for PuGs since guardians carry much better and outside portal tricks guardians bring way more damage and group protection.

The one thing I will laugh about was in the first 5 months of the game when my lightning hammer or staff ele would get kicked from max level fractals in favor of more warriors and guardians back when all that pugs wanted was " HEAVIES ONLY".

Eponet.4829:

Windwalker.7421:

lol! Now you’re just getting silly. No good reason? Assertion? DE has been a requirement for shatter builds for the entire game’s existence! This is a fact shared by pretty much anyone who has ever had a clue about any form of shatter-based Mesmer play. People have time and again tried to create Shatter builds that didn’t take DE, but they all failed miserably in presenting these builds as being competitive/viable. Do you deny this?

Wasn’t the harmonious mantras trait, that’s incompatible with deceptive evasion nerfed due to PvP shatter builds?

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_Mantra_Shatter

Even the elitist website still considers it good, even after the nerfs.

Ehh, since the trait changes shatter without DE is possible. That’s thanks to IP for one, and the rate of which we can generate clones to shatter across various builds now.

If I could make 1 change to chrono, just one change, I would increase the damage on associated wells considerably. Right now I feel mantra of pain simply out performs them damage wise.

It’s bad enough you need to sit in the well for 3s to get the “big” damage but when it’s pathetic damage it feels like a bit of a sting. It would help make wells a little more viable in WvW…though not likely.

Seize the Moment now gives 3s of Quickness at the start of channeling a Mantra and at the beginning of casting a phantasm with a 15s ICD in addition to its current functionality.

Gravity Well
Creates an area of warped gravity. For 3 seconds gravity steadily increases for enemies in a very large radius, causing stacking runspeed bonuses if heading towards the well, and stacking runspeed penalties when moving away from it. At the end gravity collapses, briefly being negated entirely.
Duration: 3s
Interval: 1s
Effect: Move 100% faster towards the well, 25% slower away from it. Stacks up to 3 times. Moving in other directions is affected depending on angle. Enemies already in the actual well take high damage instead.
Radius: 900 units.
End effect: Floats enemies for 2 seconds, dealing falling damage due to how high they float.
End radius: 240 units.

Essentially it’d make it difficult to not get towards the center, which is where the bad stuff™ happens.

apharma.3741:

If I could make 1 change to chrono, just one change, I would increase the damage on associated wells considerably. Right now I feel mantra of pain simply out performs them damage wise.

It’s bad enough you need to sit in the well for 3s to get the “big” damage but when it’s pathetic damage it feels like a bit of a sting. It would help make wells a little more viable in WvW…though not likely.

The damage on the wells is very low even assuming the target will actually stay in the well for the whole duration… I’ve seen Gravedigger (1.25s cast) “heavy damage” crit in excess of 13k with targets under 50% health (with instant cooldown reset), while I’ve never seen more than 6k on the “massive damage” from the last tick of Well of Calamity (0.75s + 3s pulse).

On top of that, if I’m running Inspiration, Mantra of Pain gives me AoE heals every few seconds and channeling it gives me 600 toughness… I don’t see any reason to take the well over MoP for WvW.

The elite well to get its bubble back it gave me archeage nostalgia
i were playing pesky daggerspell builds there