Guild Wars 2

If you play Mesmer in PvP then you’ve likely come across the following phrases either in-game or on the forums. I figured it may be best to have a thread dedicated to this discussion rather than mudsling across several different posts.

“IF YOU’RE HAVING SUCCESS WITH A NON-SHATTER BUILD, YOUR OPPONENTS ARE BAD”

To start, lets make sure one thing is certain: Shatter is the most viable tournament Mesmer build. This is a fact that cannot be disputed, despite hearing things like:

• “Shatter is boring.”
• “Shatter is predictable.”
• “Shatter needs a team to support it.”

Shatter builds are successful for a good reason: They offer the most damage a Mesmer can output while still offering the most reasonable defensive options. Lockdown builds lack the same burst damage of shatter, Phantasm builds lack defense, Condition builds lack AoE pressure. As a result, Shatter edges out over all of these builds largely due to the combination of Deceptive Evasion(Dueling X – Clone on Dodge) and Illusionary Persona. (Illusions XI – Player counts as an additional shatter).
Deceptive Evasion is our single best form of clone production, and is largely recommended for many builds while Illusionary Persona allows us the versatility of point-blank shatters – including clutch 0-clone distortions and heavy damaging Dodge-into-shatters; very few other builds have the ability to grab this trait combination.

But wait, you run without DE and/or IP and do just fine! That’s great, but what does your build offer that Shatter cannot do better? And if it does do better than shatter, does it do better than (insert meta build here that does the same thing on a different class)?

This does not mean that your build is only “good” because your opponents are not. I have a serious gripe with this perspective, because in my opinion it is really rather narrow-minded. Not only does it discourage exploring and theorycrafting but it cripples the already-limited diversity of the class in PvP. Condition builds tend to get this more than lockdown, but I’ll address the strengths of both to cover all bases.

• Condition builds such as PU and Maimed Shatter excel in 1v1 fights and taking down power builds through attrition. They are stronger the smaller the encounter, but tend to fall off in team fights. Condition-removing classes like Ele, Engineer, and Guardian tend to be able to entirely ignore maimed shatter builds in group battles. Condition builds last longer than shatter builds, but shatter’s instant bursts tend to be more desirable. One thing to keep in mind:

Neither Maim-shatter or PU builds are in themselves “bad” builds.

They both have good trait synergy and are actually one of the stronger Mesmer builds in WvW, however PU builds’ overreliance on stealth and single-target combat makes it less-than-ideal for anything other than keeping multiple opponents engaged and unbalancing fights elsewhere. Maimed shatter builds are devastating vs power builds and have more natural survivability than power shatter. Maimed simply cannot do anything Power couldn’t do faster except -of course- live longer.
When people say the builds are “bad” what they’re saying is that the specs don’t have as much of a place in teamplay by their very playstyle. A good player can make these builds work and find a definitive role (A bunkerish PU. A far-point assaulting Maimed) but the argument against these builds is that “anything a good player can do with this build, they’d do better on shatter.”

• Lockdown Builds are more tournament viable, with 4/4/6 CI falling short only to shatter. These builds again, aren’t bad, but the lack of iPersona and the utility requirement of Mantra of Distraction (rather than say.. Portal or Decoy) makes the build less ideal than Shatter in certain situations. 4/4/6 CI is much better for the solo player, since you have more natural toughness and can have a big impact on fights without needing to coordinate with a team. The problem here comes from the fact that lockdown builds lack the burst of shatter builds and do not have a consistently reliable success rate. Interrupts, similar to condition damage, can be harder to pull off in teamfights where Stability is more easily shared.

When people say lockdown builds are “bad.” They’re saying that the build simply falls short to shatter in terms of reliability due to the unpredictable nature of interrupts (yes you can predict and train yourself to land interrupts, but that still becomes far more difficult in group fights). That, or they’re parroting what they’ve heard from someone else without actually trying the build for themselves.

“THE OFFICIAL FORUMS ARE FILLED WITH BRAINDEADS WHO HAIL PU, CONDI SHATTER, AND LOCKDOWN AS THE BEST BUILDS”

Ugh.. Can we stop with this? Not only is it shortsighted and disrespectful but it’s largely untrue. Judging the entire forum community because of some more-vocal players (/cough Ross ) only takes away from what people could learn from browsing.
There are very few people on these forums who won’t take the time to help out anyone with questions and while yes- perspectives differ, to jump into a thread and say “Run Build-X because anything else is wrong and bad and everyone here just has their heads up their kittens” just dumps on all the time and experience that people put into the game.

These forums aren’t some cult, and everyones opinion here is valid. If you feel like someone is wrong, then correct them, but cutting them down and mudslinging because they don’t share your view is pretty lame. Not everyone is trying to become a tournament player, not everyone needs to run (or even enjoys playing) shatter to be effective. Anyone looking to get into competitive play knows where to go ( ex: Metabattle.com) and won’t have a hard time finding the right build to run.

The vast majority though? Let them explore and enjoy.

Mesmer jesus has risen.

lol. But srsly good read, Thanks for that CA~ Highlight of my ride home.

To many toxic attitudes sometimes… We’re all mesmers here right? We should get along and stick together… or at least until the buff roll in ;D <3~

Hehe, great thread.

I should share a related joke.

Two separate occasions running a condirupt build:
1. Using Debilitating Dissipation – labelled a “condi noob” in chat (more than one occasion)
2. Not using any on death traits – praised for skillfull play (again more than one occasion).

The only thing different was one trait – DD for illusionary defence. Ridiculous how something so small can have such a big difference on how you are viewed as a player.

I think clone death traits automatically are red rag to noob callers – that is if they see a mesmer running on death traits they must be playing a cheese/noob build. Try it – run a conditon build without any on death traits and I’ll bet you get less criticism and actual praise rather than the opposite.

Anyway I look forward to the patch/HoT to hopefully increase exposure to other builds than power shatter, and who knows maybe even useable by the high level tournament players.

Great thread Chaos.

IP baseline will probably open a bit more build diversity, but I agree that shatter is the way to go for now.

FYI. Anything is viable in casual pvp. Who decides whether something is viable or non viable in that tier? Noone. Except you.

Remember it is casual.

So how many mesmers play top tier pvp here?

StickerHappy.8052:

FYI. Anything is viable in casual pvp. Who decides whether something is viable or non viable in that tier? Noone. Except you.

Remember it is casual.

So how many mesmers play top tier pvp here?

I put up my hand and say I don’t – I’m a fairly casual solo player so when it comes to highly organised team play with voice communication compared to mute solo pugs there’s no contest and tbh have no ambition to do so either.

Curunen.8729:

StickerHappy.8052:

FYI. Anything is viable in casual pvp. Who decides whether something is viable or non viable in that tier? Noone. Except you.

Remember it is casual.

So how many mesmers play top tier pvp here?

I put up my hand and say I don’t – I’m a fairly casual solo player so when it comes to highly organised team play with voice communication compared to mute solo pugs there’s no contest and tbh have no ambition to do so either.

So If you ask me, you can play anything you want as long you are doing well with it

Oh man, a shoutout. I’m famous! :D

StickerHappy.8052:

Curunen.8729:

StickerHappy.8052:

FYI. Anything is viable in casual pvp. Who decides whether something is viable or non viable in that tier? Noone. Except you.

Remember it is casual.

So how many mesmers play top tier pvp here?

I put up my hand and say I don’t – I’m a fairly casual solo player so when it comes to highly organised team play with voice communication compared to mute solo pugs there’s no contest and tbh have no ambition to do so either.

So If you ask me, you can play anything you want as long you are doing well with it

I stand by my mad Kshot warrior skillz.

15+ kills later, match victory, top scorer – Love it.

Nice read but what makes a build good is not the synergy of traits, runes, sigils, skills…

What makes a build good is how effective it is in trying to achieve its goal. If you play a lockdown mesmer, your goal is probably to lock down key people in encounters thus making it easier for your team to win those fights. If you are shatter, your single goal is to burst down targets that would be otherwise really dangerous for your team (zerky glassy classes).

In a competitive environment, every other consideration is secondary after effectiveness.

That’s the thing about condi mesmers. What are they trying to achieve? Kill people, obviously, but if they are strong in 1v1, they should pick their targets accordingly and not try to 1v1 that shoutbow or bunker guard or even d/d ele. People should know the limits of their builds.

Not trying to be picky Chaos, you’re right about your argument. That’s why shatter mesmer, being hard countered by thieves, aren’t exactly the best team choice.

Just wanted to say engi isn’t exactly a good condi clearing class, popular builds are more focused on avoiding condi in the first place then prevent death with lots of heal blasts if necessary :P

Chaos Archangel.5071:

When people say the builds are “bad” what they’re saying is that the specs don’t have as much of a place in teamplay by their very playstyle.

You are right about that, though if you are playing PU or MtD you are doing something wrong and the greatest issue is that it’s not only about teamfights.

PU/MtD

These are all duel builds which work just fine in WvW. Notably the best defense a mesmer has is Stealth – which isn’t an optimal choice for point contesting, and that’s the only role in Conquest where dueling makes sense. Let’s say you still go for it and engage in a 1v1 on a sidepoint. Most specs in the meta can easily counter you (shoutbow, cele ele, even cele engi can do that especially with elixir gun). But let’s say you are winning against something – at this point there is a good chance that your opponent fullcapped the node and the duel went on for ages, giving the enemy team chance to +1 the fight and quickly overwhelm the mes.
(Even if you are winning the duel, there is nothing you can do to stop your enemy from disengaging and resetting the fight.)
Now let’s say you are respawning and close needs help. The most you can do is to give motivational speeches because you will barely do any damage and if you do, ele/war/guard AoE cleansing will negate it.
And finally, there is no dire amulet so you can’t even have the optimal stats.

TL;DR These are dedicated duel specs yet can’t hold points and most dedicated duel builds are going to beat these not to mention that there are many many builds out there that can fill this role better and be useful in other situations as well.

Lockdown – well technically this is still a power shatter build and there is nothing wrong with it. It can set up kills for the team with the immob, deal good dmg in teamfights, it’s useful.

These forums aren’t some cult

Actually this forum does feel like a hipster cult. :P You have an entire guild/forum worhsipping MtD and Lockdown hating on everything that’s mainstream.

had this PS few times

the most thing i think what makes power shatter exel is good group composition and communication

i am playing with guildies now for weeks and open mind for testing builds

sure they want me as power shatter when we need 2 zerk 2 sustain and 1 holder or something like that and this build is doing fine. but when i see 2 thieves or 1 thief and 1 mesmer i know i will be targeted first which makes my job alot harder

so i ask them to change to condi shatter and to be far capper holder. we all was surprise . we took tanger LB instead to cover to zerk need instead of cap holder (like guard or ele) . i manage to handle 2 thieves long enough while holding point till help come from ranger 1500 range. i manage to down engi rilfe or turret.
sure the communication helped alot.
i didnt try to go zerg on mid and you state above beside pressure the ele or guard i cant down them fast enough. but the pressure did its job after i told my team the ele used all his utilities (need to learn the animation) so the yimmobilize him and took him down fast)

the other team wisper me for gg and ask for build

so yes i mostly play power shatter as portal and burst is needed. but in the right group comp and communication you can play lockdown and condi shatter (not pu too slow)

witcher.3197:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

When people say the builds are “bad” what they’re saying is that the specs don’t have as much of a place in teamplay by their very playstyle.

You are right about that, though if you are playing PU or MtD you are doing something wrong and the greatest issue is that it’s not only about teamfights.

PU/MtD

These are all duel builds which work just fine in WvW. Notably the best defense a mesmer has is Stealth – which isn’t an optimal choice for point contesting, and that’s the only role in Conquest where dueling makes sense. Let’s say you still go for it and engage in a 1v1 on a sidepoint. Most specs in the meta can easily counter you (shoutbow, cele ele, even cele engi can do that especially with elixir gun). But let’s say you are winning against something – at this point there is a good chance that your opponent fullcapped the node and the duel went on for ages, giving the enemy team chance to +1 the fight and quickly overwhelm the mes.
(Even if you are winning the duel, there is nothing you can do to stop your enemy from disengaging and resetting the fight.)
Now let’s say you are respawning and close needs help. The most you can do is to give motivational speeches because you will barely do any damage and if you do, ele/war/guard AoE cleansing will negate it.
And finally, there is no dire amulet so you can’t even have the optimal stats.

TL;DR These are dedicated duel specs yet can’t hold points and most dedicated duel builds are going to beat these not to mention that there are many many builds out there that can fill this role better and be useful in other situations as well.

Lockdown – well technically this is still a power shatter build and there is nothing wrong with it. It can set up kills for the team with the immob, deal good dmg in teamfights, it’s useful.

These forums aren’t some cult

Actually this forum does feel like a hipster cult. :P You have an entire guild/forum worhsipping MtD and Lockdown hating on everything that’s more viable.

We don’t worship lockdown, half the members are Zerker gs staff shatter mesmers. It us a guild built to experiment because the meta is always changing and new things can become viable. Also MtD shatter is rather strong for mid fights be cause it forces foes to use cleanse, distributes lockdown condis, confusion even punishes cleansing, destroys engineers and teams with badly organized cleansing, has strong auto attack pressure, eats other mesmers alive, and has strong AoE condi application via shatter and is less dependent on stealth than Zerker mesmers.

Why am I even trying. Ok, MtD is the best build universe. It can even 1v5 teams. /thread

witcher.3197:

Why am I even trying. Ok, MtD is the best build universe. It can even 1v5 teams. /thread

I offered a reasonable argument you are the one who is being unreasonable right now. I never said MtD was better just that it has the strengths listed above and you outright refuse to admit it can be any good, don’t even read my posts or respond as if you haven’t, and insult guilds as if they are a single entity of which all members are identical.

Edit: switcher please go back to being a highly biased admin for metabattle.com( which is an acceptable resource when finding meta builds but in general is very close minded. )because it fits you better than having a reasonable conversation with me, this is obvious because you refuse to even acknowledge my points.

Edit: ‘acceptable resource when finding meta builds’

witcher.3197:

PU/MtD

These are all duel builds which work just fine in WvW.

TL;DR These are dedicated duel specs yet can’t hold points and most dedicated duel builds are going to beat these not to mention that there are many many builds out there that can fill this role better and be useful in other situations as well.

Which is obviously why I was able to play nothing but PU and sit happily at top 100 and top 150 in old solo queue and team queue, respectively.

Sorry, but you’re simply wrong. If you know what you’re doing these builds work just fine. If you try to play them like a standard power shatter or lockdown, you’ll fail spectacularly. If you play them leveraging their strengths properly, and with just a tiny bit of rational and logical thought, you can be extremely successful.

Yes, I know, you don’t agree. That’s ok, you don’t have to agree. I’m right, because I did it and proved it.

Sadrien.3470:

metabattle.com( which is an acceptable resource but in general is very close minded. )

That’s a bit of an understatement. Metabattle.com, at least for mesmer, is just about as close to a complete joke as is possible to achieve. If you want to learn how to play or what build to use, refer to some of the guides made by folks that are actually competent (yes, including shatter. Supcutie has a wonderful guide for that, and he’s quite competent you’ll agree.)

Sadrien.3470:

witcher.3197:

Why am I even trying. Ok, MtD is the best build universe. It can even 1v5 teams. /thread

I offered a reasonable argument you are the one who is being unreasonable right now. I never said MtD was better just that it has the strengths listed above and you outright refuse to admit it can be any good, don’t even read my posts or respond as if you haven’t, and insult guilds as if they are a single entity of which all members are identical.

That comment wasn’t only meant for you, but the direction this thread was taking. I’ve had one too many conversations about MtD on this forum and I do not want to turn this thread inot another one that’s why I do not want to elaborate. Your points are wrong btw, but I know that I will never be able to convince you.

Edit: nvm, very brief response: it doesn’t “force” any cleansing, a warrior/ele doing simple roations and healing can negate you as a side effect, your attacks are mostly unrelyable and only strong in theory, your weapon skills and shatters are clunky, power shatter destroys MtD in a duel, and is just as dependent on stealth if not more as you don’t have access to instant defensive mehcanics granted by IP or the distortion from sword 2.

switcher please go back to being a highly biased admin for metabattle.com( which is an acceptable resource but only recruits closed-minded admins )

We are where we are because we value quality over quantity and aren’t biased. Last month I’ve archived 2 of my favorite builds (which means removing it from the working category/frontpage), how is that biased? I think we are open minded, but that doesn’t mean we worship everything you can kill an enemy with in very specific situations.

Fay.2357:

Metabattle.com, at least for mesmer, is just about as close to a complete joke as is possible to achieve.

100g if you find a mistake in a shatter build for Pvp that we have. If you can’t, you owe me 100g. Deal?

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

PU/MtD

These are all duel builds which work just fine in WvW.

TL;DR These are dedicated duel specs yet can’t hold points and most dedicated duel builds are going to beat these not to mention that there are many many builds out there that can fill this role better and be useful in other situations as well.

Which is obviously why I was able to play nothing but PU and sit happily at top 100 and top 150 in old solo queue and team queue, respectively.

Sorry, but you’re simply wrong. If you know what you’re doing these builds work just fine. If you try to play them like a standard power shatter or lockdown, you’ll fail spectacularly. If you play them leveraging their strengths properly, and with just a tiny bit of rational and logical thought, you can be extremely successful.

Yes, I know, you don’t agree. That’s ok, you don’t have to agree. I’m right, because I did it and proved it.

Sadrien.3470:

metabattle.com( which is an acceptable resource but in general is very close minded. )

The leader boards mean nothing a decap Sb only thief was rank 2 on the leader boards.

witcher.3197:

Sadrien.3470:

witcher.3197:

Why am I even trying. Ok, MtD is the best build universe. It can even 1v5 teams. /thread

I offered a reasonable argument you are the one who is being unreasonable right now. I never said MtD was better just that it has the strengths listed above and you outright refuse to admit it can be any good, don’t even read my posts or respond as if you haven’t, and insult guilds as if they are a single entity of which all members are identical.

That comment wasn’t only meant for you, but the direction this thread was taking. I’ve had one too many conversations about MtD on this forum and I do not want to turn this thread inot another one that’s why I do not want to elaborate. Your points are wrong btw, but I know that I will never be able to convince you.

Edit: nvm, very brief response: it doesn’t “force” any cleansing, a warrior/ele doing simple roations and healing can negate you as a side effect, your attacks are mostly unrelyable and only strong in theory, your weapon skills and shatters are clunky, power shatter destroys MtD in a duel, and is just as dependent on stealth if not more as you don’t have access to instant defensive mehcanics granted by IP or the distortion from sword 2.

switcher please go back to being a highly biased admin for metabattle.com( which is an acceptable resource but only recruits closed-minded admins )

We are where we are because we value quality over quantity and aren’t biased. Last month I’ve archived 2 of my favorite builds (which means removing it from the working category/frontpage), how is that biased? I think we are open minded, but that doesn’t mean we worship everything you can kill an enemy with in very specific situations.

Fay.2357:

Metabattle.com, at least for mesmer, is just about as close to a complete joke as is possible to achieve.

100g if you find a mistake in a shatter build for Pvp that we have. If you can’t, you owe me 100g. Deal?

That like a free 100g your giving away witcher….

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

PU/MtD

These are all duel builds which work just fine in WvW.

TL;DR These are dedicated duel specs yet can’t hold points and most dedicated duel builds are going to beat these not to mention that there are many many builds out there that can fill this role better and be useful in other situations as well.

Which is obviously why I was able to play nothing but PU and sit happily at top 100 and top 150 in old solo queue and team queue, respectively.

Sorry, but you’re simply wrong. If you know what you’re doing these builds work just fine. If you try to play them like a standard power shatter or lockdown, you’ll fail spectacularly. If you play them leveraging their strengths properly, and with just a tiny bit of rational and logical thought, you can be extremely successful.

Yes, I know, you don’t agree. That’s ok, you don’t have to agree. I’m right, because I did it and proved it.

Sadrien.3470:

metabattle.com( which is an acceptable resource but in general is very close minded. )

The leader boards mean nothing a decap Sb only thief was rank 2 on the leader boards.

The leaderboards tracked your ability to win matches very effectively. If you win a lot, you’d sit at the top. Apparently, that decap thief was highly effective at winning. Trying to claim that the leaderboards meant nothing is just making yourself look foolish. If they meant nothing, why did every single notable player on the top teams sit near the tops of them?

Fay.2357:

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

PU/MtD

These are all duel builds which work just fine in WvW.

TL;DR These are dedicated duel specs yet can’t hold points and most dedicated duel builds are going to beat these not to mention that there are many many builds out there that can fill this role better and be useful in other situations as well.

Which is obviously why I was able to play nothing but PU and sit happily at top 100 and top 150 in old solo queue and team queue, respectively.

Sorry, but you’re simply wrong. If you know what you’re doing these builds work just fine. If you try to play them like a standard power shatter or lockdown, you’ll fail spectacularly. If you play them leveraging their strengths properly, and with just a tiny bit of rational and logical thought, you can be extremely successful.

Yes, I know, you don’t agree. That’s ok, you don’t have to agree. I’m right, because I did it and proved it.

Sadrien.3470:

metabattle.com( which is an acceptable resource but in general is very close minded. )

The leader boards mean nothing a decap Sb only thief was rank 2 on the leader boards.

The leaderboards tracked your ability to win matches very effectively. If you win a lot, you’d sit at the top. Apparently, that decap thief was highly effective at winning. Trying to claim that the leaderboards meant nothing is just making yourself look foolish. If they meant nothing, why did every single notable player on the top teams sit near the tops of them?

Leader boards aren’t tracking your win to loss ratio they track quantity of points score, it just happens to be that all the top players play lots of matches so they score high on the leader boards.

Sadrien.3470:

That like a free 100g your giving away witcher….

Then why aren’t you going for it? Besides it’s still a wiki if you feel like something’s off it would cost you roughly a minute to help out.

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

PU/MtD

These are all duel builds which work just fine in WvW.

TL;DR These are dedicated duel specs yet can’t hold points and most dedicated duel builds are going to beat these not to mention that there are many many builds out there that can fill this role better and be useful in other situations as well.

Which is obviously why I was able to play nothing but PU and sit happily at top 100 and top 150 in old solo queue and team queue, respectively.

Sorry, but you’re simply wrong. If you know what you’re doing these builds work just fine. If you try to play them like a standard power shatter or lockdown, you’ll fail spectacularly. If you play them leveraging their strengths properly, and with just a tiny bit of rational and logical thought, you can be extremely successful.

Yes, I know, you don’t agree. That’s ok, you don’t have to agree. I’m right, because I did it and proved it.

Sadrien.3470:

metabattle.com( which is an acceptable resource but in general is very close minded. )

The leader boards mean nothing a decap Sb only thief was rank 2 on the leader boards.

The leaderboards tracked your ability to win matches very effectively. If you win a lot, you’d sit at the top. Apparently, that decap thief was highly effective at winning. Trying to claim that the leaderboards meant nothing is just making yourself look foolish. If they meant nothing, why did every single notable player on the top teams sit near the tops of them?

Leader boards aren’t tracking your win to loss ratio they track quantity of points score, it just happens to be that all the top players play lots of matches so they score high on the leader boards.

Old leaderboards, not these broken ones.

Fay.2357:

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

PU/MtD

These are all duel builds which work just fine in WvW.

TL;DR These are dedicated duel specs yet can’t hold points and most dedicated duel builds are going to beat these not to mention that there are many many builds out there that can fill this role better and be useful in other situations as well.

Which is obviously why I was able to play nothing but PU and sit happily at top 100 and top 150 in old solo queue and team queue, respectively.

Sorry, but you’re simply wrong. If you know what you’re doing these builds work just fine. If you try to play them like a standard power shatter or lockdown, you’ll fail spectacularly. If you play them leveraging their strengths properly, and with just a tiny bit of rational and logical thought, you can be extremely successful.

Yes, I know, you don’t agree. That’s ok, you don’t have to agree. I’m right, because I did it and proved it.

Sadrien.3470:

metabattle.com( which is an acceptable resource but in general is very close minded. )

The leader boards mean nothing a decap Sb only thief was rank 2 on the leader boards.

The leaderboards tracked your ability to win matches very effectively. If you win a lot, you’d sit at the top. Apparently, that decap thief was highly effective at winning. Trying to claim that the leaderboards meant nothing is just making yourself look foolish. If they meant nothing, why did every single notable player on the top teams sit near the tops of them?

Leader boards aren’t tracking your win to loss ratio they track quantity of points score, it just happens to be that all the top players play lots of matches so they score high on the leader boards.

Old leaderboards, not these broken ones.

How old are you talking about ? They changed them several times.

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

PU/MtD

These are all duel builds which work just fine in WvW.

TL;DR These are dedicated duel specs yet can’t hold points and most dedicated duel builds are going to beat these not to mention that there are many many builds out there that can fill this role better and be useful in other situations as well.

Which is obviously why I was able to play nothing but PU and sit happily at top 100 and top 150 in old solo queue and team queue, respectively.

Sorry, but you’re simply wrong. If you know what you’re doing these builds work just fine. If you try to play them like a standard power shatter or lockdown, you’ll fail spectacularly. If you play them leveraging their strengths properly, and with just a tiny bit of rational and logical thought, you can be extremely successful.

Yes, I know, you don’t agree. That’s ok, you don’t have to agree. I’m right, because I did it and proved it.

Sadrien.3470:

metabattle.com( which is an acceptable resource but in general is very close minded. )

The leader boards mean nothing a decap Sb only thief was rank 2 on the leader boards.

The leaderboards tracked your ability to win matches very effectively. If you win a lot, you’d sit at the top. Apparently, that decap thief was highly effective at winning. Trying to claim that the leaderboards meant nothing is just making yourself look foolish. If they meant nothing, why did every single notable player on the top teams sit near the tops of them?

Leader boards aren’t tracking your win to loss ratio they track quantity of points score, it just happens to be that all the top players play lots of matches so they score high on the leader boards.

Old leaderboards, not these broken ones.

How old are you talking about ? They changed them several times.

From when there was (as I referenced) a team queue and solo queue.

When mtd gets free IP and the new scepter trait, along with things like free clone and quickness on shatter, not to mention confusion on crit in addition to bleeding for you and illusions, I reckon it could be a very effective point holder (or decapper vs say engineers).

Edit: I forgot alacrity and continuum split – I think even the shoutbows and eles might struggle with the condition output. Revenants on the other hand are what worries me…

witcher.3197:

Sadrien.3470:

That like a free 100g your giving away witcher….

Then why aren’t you going for it? Besides it’s still a wiki if you feel like something’s off it would cost you roughly a minute to help out.

Your wiki won’t let me create an account or act anonymously without an account so I can’t if I want to.

Sadrien.3470:

witcher.3197:

Sadrien.3470:

That like a free 100g your giving away witcher….

Then why aren’t you going for it? Besides it’s still a wiki if you feel like something’s off it would cost you roughly a minute to help out.

Your wiki won’t let me create an account or act anonymously without an account so I can’t if I want to.

It’s not mine. Hmm, 4 accounts were created today so idk why you’re having issues creating one. Are you sure you weren’t auto banned by the spam filter for posting internal links on your very 1st edit a while ago?

witcher.3197:

Actually this forum does feel like a hipster cult. :P You have an entire guild/forum worhsipping MtD and Lockdown hating on everything that’s mainstream.

Gross misrepresentation, but your ongoing hangup never the less :D

I see it turning over mtd thread….

The thread is about a build which is effective or not and being bad player or not by using non meta 1 build

Power shatter is good build when needed but can be pressure easily to not effective at all but portal and moa use

Mtd as for now and in the near future is good in other situation where your group knows your role
I have no problem 1v1 versus warrior or ele meta builds . The problem is it’s taking too long to down them and meanwhile help comes to 1v2
Power shatter has the same problems versus the same meta build in 1v1

If you know how to play your build and know your team movement and role you even can play as pu (mmm …. maybe not ) it’s just very different role from power shatter

Chaos Archangel.5071:

When people say the builds are “bad” what they’re saying is that the specs don’t have as much of a place in teamplay by their very playstyle.

This is something I briefly want to latch onto:
When people make a correct and sensible argument, they’re indeed saying what you said.

What people usually meant to say is that they frequently die to that spec, and don’t know what to do against it and can’t be bothered to try improve. Hence it’s one or more of the following:

• Lame
• Cheese
• No-skill
• For baddies
• Noob spec
• A few more I can’t get past the filter

Anyhow, that’s just an interjection. Rule of thumb, if someone says your (internally sensible) spec is bad, they’re just raging or being envious of you winning. And they have to rationalize their loss because they cannot accept that they’re inferior.

Carighan.6758:

Rule of thumb, if someone says your (internally sensible) spec is bad, they’re just raging or being envious of you winning.

What if a teammate says it because you did not contribute to the match at all, effectively making it a 4v5 because your build is bad?

IP Shatter is an optimal PvP build that doesn’t act as a hinderence to your team.

Sure any build is playable in spvp but IP shatter is just all around the better build to play. So when someone says to stop playing some bizarre build it is because you effectively become a feeder and don’t provide anything worthwhile to the team. But either ignore them and move on or play IP shatter and see why it excels.

Sadly derailed a bit….usual suspects! ;-)

Look, for the 1 billionth time, people seem to forget that a build must match the player, or it’s worthless. What good does it do me, personally, that Supcutie can prove that Power Shatter is the best and only viable build, when I get miserably stomped again and again and again playing that same build?

There are factors beyond your control, the least of which are age, reaction-time, ping, latency, and simply the time you have free to invest into the game. All of these things are vital to a standard Power Shatter build, due to the unforgiving nature of it. It’s high risk and high reward, which means if you’re not playing it perfectly you’re not going to have much fun and neither is your team.

As an example, for the last few weeks I’ve been playing Zerker Power PU (Sw/To & GS), and winning easily 75% of my unranked arena matches. I’ve noticeably more impact on my teams & games then when I play Power Shatter or even MtD Shatter.

I do like MtD and find it quite viable and fun…but I feel that currently, overall, the game kinda favors power/spike damage. Largely due to what witcher said; incidental cleansing. (Which quite frankly is very poor design. In order to clear any more then a single Condition, especially AoE, you should at least be actively focused on cleansing, rather then just passively nullifying multiple conditions simply whilst playing normally.)

a nice tread!
44006 and nothing elese? i am plying in fp and wanted to chance it to a 46040 lockdown.

but then ppl saying no we need the boonremoval from the shatter or you loose so much dmg and omg you playing mantras. thats not optimal and no illusionary persona….

you can remove up to 6 boons of 5 ppl with your shatter and do a ton of dmg. nothing will change after the update. shatter is too relyable comapred to interrupt, phantasm, condi, in teamfights.

What I got from all this is that if you aren’t playing naked, you’re not doing right …

… and, of course, the given … if you’re not a Norn, you’re inferior :-p

Just kidding. Good post, though sadly I’ve always felt it was common sense that there is no “one build to rule them all”. The fact that we’re having this discussion somewhat saddens me. To me it’s like having a discussion about how you shouldn’t walk into oncoming traffic.

YAY! Another thread for people to talk trash about anything not power shatter!! We all have “Lockdown Chaos” to thank for this self serving thread to support lockdown builds. I cant wait to see the one he posts next week! Most of the mesmers who read these threads everyday play every build well, so idk why the hell we argue over this crap ad nauseam. I’m rank 80, I have over 4k on mez, I like to play Mtd in mid tier spvp,

ITS FUN <———————————

Remember having fun while playing? I’m not helseth which means I don’t give a kitten about top tier pvp, I have a 70 hour a week job. Tired of these negative threads that go nowhere. My point being that there is a small minority of people who reads these forums everyday. Meaning your just arguing with the same people over and over again. Mesmer is the only reason I play gw2, so it would be nice if the “leaders” of this profession could stop arguing over the same dumb crap. I don’t comment much and I apologize even for this but come on guys just go play and stay off the forums for a week or two, it will do you some good. Ill be taking my own advice on this as well :P.

serenke.4806:

Nice read but what makes a build good is not the synergy of traits, runes, sigils, skills…

What makes a build good is how effective it is in trying to achieve its goal…

That’s the thing about condi mesmers. What are they trying to achieve? Kill people, obviously, but if they are strong in 1v1, they should pick their targets accordingly and not try to 1v1 that shoutbow or bunker guard or even d/d ele. People should know the limits of their builds.

Good point, and very true. Could even expand on that, since a build’s “goal” may not be very effective to begin with. If I made a build dedicated to doing nothing but mantra healing, I’d be effectively hitting my goal of putting out profound heals but the build would be soo singularly focused on this one task that it’d still be a bad build due to its lack of versatility or ability to do anything but healbot.
—-

witcher.3197:

Actually this forum does feel like a hipster cult. :P You have an entire guild/forum worhsipping MtD and Lockdown hating on everything that’s mainstream.

Thats the broad generalizations I was speaking about! Most people defend MtD or Lockdown, but hardly (none that I’ve seen) claim that the specs are the absolute best. More often than not you’ll find people defending the build from detractors that call it useless, because it is not useless, but that doesn’t mean you have to go from one extreme to the other.

Also.. Entire guild/forum? Dude it’s like the same 6 people that argue with you. =P

—-

That’s a bit of an understatement. Metabattle.com, at least for mesmer, is just about as close to a complete joke as is possible to achieve. If you want to learn how to play or what build to use, refer to some of the guides made by folks that are actually competent (yes, including shatter. Supcutie has a wonderful guide for that, and he’s quite competent you’ll agree.)

Gonna need some examples/proof here. I don’t see anything on that site that doesn’t have helpful information for Mesmers of all different levels.

Sebrent.3625:

What I got from all this is that if you aren’t playing naked, you’re not doing right …

… and, of course, the given … if you’re not a Norn, you’re inferior :-p

Just kidding. Good post, though sadly I’ve always felt it was common sense that there is no “one build to rule them all”. The fact that we’re having this discussion somewhat saddens me. To me it’s like having a discussion about how you shouldn’t walk into oncoming traffic.

Its more like a discussion on shoes. If you’re running a race you want the most optimal jogging shoes, but if you’re just running because you enjoy running you can wear nearly anything.
But then some people are calling PU and MtD the flip-flops of the runner world. =P

Flow.2947:

a nice tread!
44006 and nothing elese? i am plying in fp and wanted to chance it to a 46040 lockdown.

but then ppl saying no we need the boonremoval from the shatter or you loose so much dmg and omg you playing mantras. thats not optimal and no illusionary persona….

you can remove up to 6 boons of 5 ppl with your shatter and do a ton of dmg. nothing will change after the update. shatter is too relyable comapred to interrupt, phantasm, condi, in teamfights.

Heres the thing, do the people on your team saying that actually play Mesmer? Have they ever seen a 4/4/6 lockdown build in action? Granted.. I’m curious as to what kinda 4/6/0/4/0 build you were going for, but nonetheless.. Anytime you go for something different and people don’t know what it is, they’ll suggest something more better understood and trusted.
However, I disagree with your last sentence. When HoT hits, Lockdown will be doing just about as much damage kittenter does currently. Right now the only edge shatter has over 4/4/6 lockdown is Illusionary Persona, which will become baseline and open up more alternative options.

Nazer.7301:

YAY! Another thread for people to talk trash about anything not power shatter!! We all have “Lockdown Chaos” to thank for this self serving thread to support lockdown builds. I cant wait to see the one he posts next week! Most of the mesmers who read these threads everyday play every build well, so idk why the hell we argue over this crap ad nauseam. I’m rank 80, I have over 4k on mez, I like to play Mtd in mid tier spvp,

ITS FUN <———————————

Remember having fun while playing? I’m not helseth which means I don’t give a kitten about top tier pvp, I have a 70 hour a week job. Tired of these negative threads that go nowhere. My point being that there is a small minority of people who reads these forums everyday. Meaning your just arguing with the same people over and over again. Mesmer is the only reason I play gw2, so it would be nice if the “leaders” of this profession could stop arguing over the same dumb crap. I don’t comment much and I apologize even for this but come on guys just go play and stay off the forums for a week or two, it will do you some good. Ill be taking my own advice on this as well :P.

This “Chaos the Lockdown Guy” thing really is starting to stick, huh..

You know, I actually had to take a second to look up “self-serving” so I could be certain I had the right definition. One thing I want to stress is that I don’t write these threads specifically for the members of this forum. At current count, this thread has 797 views. Lets broadly assume that at least half of those views are repeats of the same people from different IP addresses.

Thats still 400 people interested enough to check out this thread in less than 24 hours.

When I write, I do so with the mindset that the majority of people reading them are not people who actually post here, that’s why I try to often write things that may seem redundant to the average player (such as DE – Dueling X: Clone on Dodge) because I do not want to assume that everyone has the same knowledge of the class that we do.

So no, I do not take 40 minutes out of my life just to make myself feel good. I do it because I geniunely enjoy expressing my opinion in a way that hopefully can help entertain and educate another person. And this is a topic that many Mesmer tend to run into, and too many end up running builds they don’t enjoy as a result of feeling like they have no other choice.

Lol, Chaos, yeah, your analogy is probably more spot on with the running shoes.

I just wish people would stop with the anecdotes, etc. and stick with the facts … it’s as if facts run the heck away from most of the Mesmer community when we get to these topics.

Opinions are all well and good, but I like to know what facts they are based on … not anecdotes, but facts.

I like that Chaos is trying to help those who aren’t capable/willing/confident enough to think for their selves when it comes to trying something other than Shatter.

I dislike the rest of the flak that has come with it.

As far as my opinion on builds … each one depends on the synergy with your team and the current meta.

Given Elementalists and Guardians never-ending reign in every meta and how they provide boons every time they break wind … shatter has been a common go-to given that it usually, if not always, has boon removal.

This doesn’t make the others better/worse, but it does explain a part of its constant position in the meta.

Now, can the rest of you talk about things other than how people do/don’t use their brains … people are being hipster … people’s fathers are hamsters and their mothers spell of elderberries?

People would benefit more from facts used in discussion.

Also … if any of you are looking at other people as “leaders” … please stop.

There are people who know their stuff. How do you tell who knows their stuff? By knowing it too. Then, for the benefit of all, you have discussions (not arguments/debate) about the facts using the stuff you know.

There are plenty of people around here who “know their stuff” … some are better/worse as discussing than others.

Sometimes any number of these people make a mistake. This is why we discuss these things.

One last note:

As a litmus test, I generally find that if everyone is agreeing on something then either:
(1) It is a very basic/obvious thing
(2) We’re doing a horrible job thoroughly analyzing it … if even analyzing it at all.

Mesmer isn’t a very straightforward class and it becomes even less so when you introduce all the other variables with team building, meta, etc.. So I think we’re often stuck on (2).

after HOT comes out more builds versatile will be open as IP base
with chrono you can make some more clones and phantasms so maybe no need for DE
more condi dmg with bleed confusion and boost to torment
more slow ability and more control and dmg through interrupts

lockdown will be still less faster then power shatter but can yield probably same dmg over time
mtd will do better

so what we have to w8 and see is how other profession will handle us

will the be able to cleanse more often and the new resistance proc more often then mtd will be shutdown
will they have more blind and stunbreak ability or cc then lockdown will have some problem (revenant with stability spamming for example)

sure so far mesmer seems to be in great spot. i hope it will stay that way

tbh it’s really difficult to play right now without dreaming about ip becoming baseline – I kind of wish they hadn’t told us!

Chaos Archangel.5071:

So no, I do not take 40 minutes out of my life just to make myself feel good. I do it because I genuinely enjoy expressing my opinion in a way that hopefully can help entertain and educate another person.

Eaglescout. ;D

messiah.1908:

after HOT comes out more builds versatile will be open as IP base

Trait changes will come before HoT. Only Chrono is post hot.

My story:
I tends play more CI lately bcos Shatter is a bit boring, but yea. Had a game when phoenix Thief un my team flamed me for my CI build xd (ofc i had top stats, and i done daily in one shoot) most terms used: no dmg, silly defense cos i run pistol. Now fun part, i next game we met on other sides… and i just wreck him in Team Fights, and in 4x 1n1 i win 3 times… i pm him few times, but he didnt reply to me.

In SoloQ CI is as good kittenter, and sometimes even better duo to chaos Storm and AoE interrpts with immobile.

Also for ME, Mantra of Distr is far better in SOLOQ than portal/ill of life/whatever else. Ability to stop rezz/stomp/heal is too good. After arrival of Hots/pre hots patch this build will be stupidly op in soloq, and mby viable in turnaments.

Nice writeup OP. Everyone should explore alternative builds, especially because they can help you understand the “meta” and why it works the way it does.

For tournament play (something I’ve never done, but I read and have an understanding) Shatter with GS/Sword-Torch or Staff, works because its damage and defenses are reliable. With IP, the Mesmer can count on his or herself. With lockdown, you rely on your enemy.

That being said, certain builds will shine versus certain teams, with certain teams. In solo Q ranked, I’ve run a number of builds that have been really effective. Definitely lockdown, and sometimes even with Maim.

I think that people need to stop equating “good build” with a “meta build.” Everyone should theorycraft, experiment, and find out what role they are trying to fill.

That being said, come the HoT pre-patch, shatter and lockdown will be practically combined. It almost doesn’t seem like there will be a “pure” lockdown or a “pure” shatter as far as those terms apply right now. These forums just need a little xanax.

In my mind One of interrupt’s biggest issues when it comes to Tournaments comes back down to Thieves. They have little that is easy to interrupt and they are affected the least by interrupts given that they don’t have a cooldown system for their weaponsets.

Again, Thief is messing things up for us :-p

@Sebrent: Agreed, to a point. Sword-Dagger thieves are way harder to pin down. I think I’ve heard Rylock say that you can interrupt CnD and the chain skill for Infiltrator’s Strike. But that’s a little difficult for me just yet :P. Dagger-Pistol thieves, on the other had, as long as you can clear the blind, feel free to interrupt those Heartseekers. You know that it’s coming the second they fire the blinding shot. My problem with DP thieves is never the initial burst, it’s the complete reset after Shadow Refuge. If they can avoid the push/pull from the GS/Sword-Focus set, they have 15 seconds of making us play a guessing game. With Basilisk Venom and a backstab/steal combo, it’s a risky gamble if we want to time our dodge.

I’d say shatter does a little bit better than lockdown even in the thief matchup, but some people will prove me wrong.

But as I’ve stated elsewhere on these forums. The thief should just stick to shortbowing mesmers down. That weapon was F@#$ing designed for PVP.