Guild Wars 2

Not made baseline. Not combined with another trait. Removed.

Mirage has it’s fair share of problems. I’ve detailed them in the feedback threads and on reddit. But I think one of the most problematic aspects is that people don’t know what the elite specialization is supposed to do and Infinite Horizon is a big part of that.

For those that don’t know, Infinite Horizon is a Mirage Trait that applies Mirage Cloak to your clones when you personally gain Mirage Cloak. This means that they will use an ambush attack instead of Auto Attack.

This trait has many things very appealing to it on the surface level. I think primarily it’s because it’s the only fun really unique spell and mechanic new to Mirage. It’s satisfying to see all your clones using ambush attacks in unison in a way nothing else on the Mirage is.

Unfortunately, being fun and interesting does not mean good. Clones do almost no direct damage. The condition duration from clone Ambush Attacks is drastically reduced so even from a condition perspective it doesn’t actually end up being that much damage. It’s not meant to be a trait that improves the damage on your ambush attacks. It’s there to help with the “deception” aspect of the class.

The end result is that you have tons of people convinced that the Mirage is supposed to use clones to do damaged instead of using phantasms of shatters, even though from both a defensive and offensive angle clones can’t actually do that. If you want a grandmaster that does increases your damage, the 20% increased condition duration on bleeding targets from Dune Cloak is huge and far, far more of a DPS boost than Infinite Horizon.

Mirage is clearly supposed to be a shatter spec. Let’s look at some more of the traits:

Riddle of Sand: When entering combat, your first Ambush attack applies confusion. This ability refreshes when you use a Shatter skill. (Major Adept)

Nomad’s Endurance: Shatter skills give vigor, which grants Condition damage. (Minor Master)

Shards of Glass: Shattered Illusions have a chance of becoming Mirage Mirrors. (Major Master)

My suggestion is that Infinite Horizon should be replaced with something like this:

“Infinite Horizon: Clone and Phantasm Skills summon now summon an Additional Clone or Phantasm of the same type. (10 Second Internal Cooldown”

Not only would this be a fun trait, it would be a good trait that plays into Mirage and Mesmer’s mechanic of shattering. It would also provide a unique bandaid towards Mirage being really starved for shatter ammo compared to Chronomancer in a way unique to this particular subclass. And it would be good for both power and condition mesmers.

Once we’ve given Mirage a more focused, less confusing design by removing Infinite Horizon we can focus on solving it’s other issues like how bad ambush skills are across the board, and how Mirage is expected to use dodge rolls offensively like a daredevil but doesn’t have the endurance regeneration to make that playstyle work, and how Mirage Mirrors are a poor concept.

But core mesmer is a shatter spec, we don’t want more shatter!

We want our clones to matter beyond shatter fodder. We like the idea of a clone-based spec. We just really, really, really don’t want it to be this kitten thing called Mirage we’ve been handed.

Dondagora.9645:

But core mesmer is a shatter spec, we don’t want more shatter!

We want our clones to matter beyond shatter fodder. We like the idea of a clone-based spec. We just really, really, really don’t want it to be this kitten thing called Mirage we’ve been handed.

I agree.

More shatter is kind of boring – not really giving us a different way to play the class. Rather than Mirage being just another type of shatter spec, I’d rather see them go all the way in making it an illusion manipulation spec.

I’d have loved to see them replace shatter skills on Mirage for ranger style pet command mechanics and beefed up clone/phantasm survival and mind game mechanics. Make it an active version of old phantasm style play – but where you have to initiate commands for illusions to attack. F1 could have been ambush – as in a targeted burst from all your illusions, which could still proc shatter traits on hit.

mortrialus.3062:

…….
Mirage is clearly supposed to be a shatter spec. Let’s look at some more of the traits:

Riddle of Sand: When entering combat, your first Ambush attack applies confusion. This ability refreshes when you use a Shatter skill. (Major Adept)

Nomad’s Endurance: Shatter skills give vigor, which grants Condition damage. (Minor Master)

Shards of Glass: Shattered Illusions have a chance of becoming Mirage Mirrors. (Major Master)

…….

No, it isn’t. Stop trying to convince people this is true, because its as far from the truth as we can get. Chrono is the shatter elite spec we got, that’s why it had so much illusion generation tied to 2 traits, on top of alacrity to get our shatters (and illusions) up faster, on top of giving superspeed to shatters. Chrono is the shatter spec. Mirage is not.

There is nothing, literally nothing, in the trait line that says its a shatter spec. Nothing. Your “evidence” consists of 3 traits, all of which are meant to minimize the harm that shatters do to yourself (in terms of losing DPS and both losing the deception part of the spec).

Riddle of sand directly buffs your ambushes, not your shatters. The reason it refreshes when shattering is to help offset the cost of losing all of your clones when you shatter (hence, losing the extra stacks of conditions). Even then, its not even that strong. Its just 2 stacks of confusion, which a single clone performing a staff or scepter ambush will do more damage, much less having 3 of them.

Nomad’s endurance again doesn’t buff your shatters. Its just that ANet didn’t want a spec that had zero interaction with shatters. Vigor on shatter doesn’t even make sense, it should be vigor after a dodge to fit with the theme of the attack (or vigor after landing an ambush attack).

Shards of Glass, again doesn’t buff your shatters at all. It just gives us a chance at another mirage mirror. And since shattering destroys your clones, the “deception” this class has vanishes after a shatter, so giving us a mirror is a weak way to give us some sort of defense for losing the deception. This is even more evident since deception and confusing enemies seems to be the primary defense of this spec according to the theme (practically they don’t work that well).

Mirage is anything but a shatter spec. Sorry to be so blunt, but you really couldn’t be more wrong about it. The reason you keep grasping at straws here is because its so bad at what its supposed to do. Which is deceive enemies via clones, and performing ambush attacks. Honestly, if you think ambush attacks aren’t supposed to be a large part of this class then it wouldn’t have put in mirrors as an alternative mechanic to access them.

Mirage is NOT a shatter spec.

Mirage really ought to change shatter skills into empower skills. Make the illusions temporarily stronger instead of killing them off.

That’s if Mirage is supposed to be the “not-shatter” spec. A “not-shatter” spec that still got shatter skills on the bar is going to be a broken mess no matter what you do.

no.
can we shatter the mirage mirrors instead.
and keep the illusions.
Also can we get rid of phantasms on this spec all together and make that original attack we do much stronger.

YAY!

Tbh, I disagree with everyone here.

(Contrarian position for the win).

Mirage is neither supposed to be a shatter spec, nor an illusion manipulation spec.

It’s supposed to be a completely useless spec that accomplishes nothing, fixes nothing, and is just there to fill a check box.

[X] – Mesmer got an elite spec

That’s it.

“It’s meant to deceive with clones” – Literally what Mesmer was described as doing since launch.
“It’s meant to shatter” – Literally what Mesmer has been doing since launch, outside of the old tanky retaliation build.
“It’s meant to use the ambushes” – All of the ambuses except for sword are downgrades from the auto attacks, and sword is mostly for movement.

Honestly, if Mirage was meant to do anything, it was meant to be a thief with loads of mobility and dodges. Look at the absolute insanity in movement abilities. Sword 1, 3 utilities, our elite is literally 3 short range jumps.

I don’t know why everyone isn’t seeing the obvious. It’s just a high mobility mesmer spec. That’s it. That’s all it has.

They didn’t even try to make it do better damage with illusions. They didn’t even try to make it better at shattering than Chrono. They didn’t even try to make it do better damage solo.

They just thought “Hey, lets give it mobility skills & evades, and tack on some other stuff too”.

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Tbh, I disagree with everyone here.

(Contrarian position for the win).

Mirage is neither supposed to be a shatter spec, nor an illusion manipulation spec.

It’s supposed to be a completely useless spec that accomplishes nothing, fixes nothing, and is just there to fill a check box.

[X] – Mesmer got an elite spec

That’s it.

“It’s meant to deceive with clones” – Literally what Mesmer was described as doing since launch.
“It’s meant to shatter” – Literally what Mesmer has been doing since launch, outside of the old tanky retaliation build.
“It’s meant to use the ambushes” – All of the ambuses except for sword are downgrades from the auto attacks, and sword is mostly for movement.

Honestly, if Mirage was meant to do anything, it was meant to be a thief with loads of mobility and dodges. Look at the absolute insanity in movement abilities. Sword 1, 3 utilities, our elite is literally 3 short range jumps.

I don’t know why everyone isn’t seeing the obvious. It’s just a high mobility mesmer spec. That’s it. That’s all it has.

They didn’t even try to make it do better damage with illusions. They didn’t even try to make it better at shattering than Chrono. They didn’t even try to make it do better damage solo.

They just thought “Hey, lets give it mobility skills & evades, and tack on some other stuff too”.

OOOH gurl! I love its mobility. I’m super happy with the movement util skills.
I know they are not super useful to the team but they make for some fun solo pve!!!

The class can be saved! they just need to add more utility with the mirrors. Make Them be the object that we shatter. Creating mirages on the field that aid allies or harm enemies based on the shatter. Fix EM JESUS

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Tbh, I disagree with everyone here.

(Contrarian position for the win).

Mirage is neither supposed to be a shatter spec, nor an illusion manipulation spec.

It’s supposed to be a completely useless spec that accomplishes nothing, fixes nothing, and is just there to fill a check box.

[X] – Mesmer got an elite spec

That’s it.

“It’s meant to deceive with clones” – Literally what Mesmer was described as doing since launch.
“It’s meant to shatter” – Literally what Mesmer has been doing since launch, outside of the old tanky retaliation build.
“It’s meant to use the ambushes” – All of the ambuses except for sword are downgrades from the auto attacks, and sword is mostly for movement.

Honestly, if Mirage was meant to do anything, it was meant to be a thief with loads of mobility and dodges. Look at the absolute insanity in movement abilities. Sword 1, 3 utilities, our elite is literally 3 short range jumps.

I don’t know why everyone isn’t seeing the obvious. It’s just a high mobility mesmer spec. That’s it. That’s all it has.

They didn’t even try to make it do better damage with illusions. They didn’t even try to make it better at shattering than Chrono. They didn’t even try to make it do better damage solo.

They just thought “Hey, lets give it mobility skills & evades, and tack on some other stuff too”.

lol I get it – we’re meant to be the new decap/+1 thief that isn’t supposed to fight anyone. xD

Curunen.8729:

lol I get it – we’re meant to be the new decap/+1 thief that isn’t supposed to fight anyone. xD

Exactly! You go out there, you get on that dead horse, and you beat the crap out of that dead horse.

Make sure you +1 every fight, and then just time all of your movement abilities and evades such that you never die, and are able to run to the next fight after your teammate inevitably dies because you’re doing nothing to help them.

Now you’re thinking like a mirage!

If I sound overly negative, it’s because I am.

Mostly play WvW here, and I’d really like a Mesmer that didn’t suck the butt cheeks of life in WvW.

Can’t have boonshare, can’t have too much invis time on veil, can’t have a high retaliation build, can’t have the ability to make the frontline invulnerable with a well, can’t have any real damage on calamity or gravity well.

Best thing we’ve got is mercy rune reviving people, and using mantras to pull condis off of teammates without even giving them resistance, meaning “why take a mesmer when you could take a revenant”.

sigh

OriOri.8724:

No, it isn’t. Stop trying to convince people this is true, because its as far from the truth as we can get. Chrono is the shatter elite spec we got, that’s why it had so much illusion generation tied to 2 traits, on top of alacrity to get our shatters (and illusions) up faster, on top of giving superspeed to shatters. Chrono is the shatter spec. Mirage is not.

Chronomancer is a defense and support specialization. That yes, provides some utility to our class mechanic shattering. Just like Mirage is primarily a condition duelist and skirmisher, that provides some utility to our class mechanic.

Also I’m not sure if you know this, but Alacrity doesn’t just work on shatters. It works on everything for everyone. You know, the whole defensive support spec thing. You seem really confused about that.

Saying Chronomancer is THE shatter spec and nothing else is nonsense. I never said ambush skills aren’t supposed to be what Mirage bring to the table and be good at. I just said it’s supposed to shatter. Yeah, Mirage has clone generation in it’s traits as well. The problem is that Deception Skills are really bad so it’s clone generation pales in comparison to Chronomancer’s Chronophantasia.

OriOri.8724:

There is nothing, literally nothing, in the trait line that says its a shatter spec. Nothing. Your “evidence” consists of 3 traits, all of which are meant to minimize the harm that shatters do to yourself (in terms of losing DPS and both losing the deception part of the spec).

“There is literally nothing that says Mirage is suppose to shatter except that there are three times as many traits designed to interact with and provide utility to shatters as there are for that one trait that has your clones copy your ambush skills that explicitly says to not do much damage or condition damage. NOTHING.”

OriOri.8724:

Riddle of sand directly buffs your ambushes, not your shatters. The reason it refreshes when shattering is to help offset the cost of losing all of your clones when you shatter (hence, losing the extra stacks of conditions).

It improves your ambushes. And it makes your shatters buff your ambushes. Yes. It’s badly undertuned. But the design that shatters and ambush skills are supposed to compliment each other is clearly there.

OriOri.8724:

Even then, its not even that strong. Its just 2 stacks of confusion, which a single clone performing a staff or scepter ambush will do more damage, much less having 3 of them.

For literally 2 seconds of confusion equaling less than 44 condition damage per stack. Dune Cloak’s 20% condition duration on bleeding targets results in far more damage. That is math. That is a fact.

If you’re goal is to buff your ambush damage you don’t want Infinite Horizon. That’s what I’m trying to tell you. That doesn’t even account for things like having Phantasmal Duelists out for sustained damage and a Master of Fragmentation boosted Cry of Frustration.

That’s what I’m trying to explain to everyone. Infinite Horizon is a red herring.

Mirage isn’t good. But Infinite Horizon is not only bad it’s actively misleading people into thinking Mirage is a spec that does damage by using clones that basically don’t do damage to somehow do damage with their attacks that basically don’t do damage.

OriOri.8724:

Nomad’s endurance again doesn’t buff your shatters. Its just that ANet didn’t want a spec that had zero interaction with shatters. Vigor on shatter doesn’t even make sense, it should be vigor after a dodge to fit with the theme of the attack (or vigor after landing an ambush attack).

It doesn’t “buff” shatters directly. But if buffs you when you perform shatters, allowing you to perform more ambush attacks. And it gives you increased condition damage after you shatter. Because shatters and ambush attacks are supposed to compliment each other.

OriOri.8724:

Shards of Glass, again doesn’t buff your shatters at all. It just gives us a chance at another mirage mirror. And since shattering destroys your clones, the “deception” this class has vanishes after a shatter, so giving us a mirror is a weak way to give us some sort of defense for losing the deception. This is even more evident since deception and confusing enemies seems to be the primary defense of this spec according to the theme (practically they don’t work that well).

OriOri.8724:

Mirage is anything but a shatter spec. Sorry to be so blunt, but you really couldn’t be more wrong about it. The reason you keep grasping at straws here is because its so bad at what its supposed to do. Which is deceive enemies via clones, and performing ambush attacks. Honestly, if you think ambush attacks aren’t supposed to be a large part of this class then it wouldn’t have put in mirrors as an alternative mechanic to access them.

Mirage is NOT a shatter spec.

How am I grasping at straws? You’re the one that said Alacrity only works on shatter skills and that’s why Chronomancer is the shatter spec.

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Can’t have boonshare, can’t have too much invis time on veil, can’t have a high retaliation build, can’t have the ability to make the frontline invulnerable with a well, can’t have any real damage on calamity or gravity well.

Reading this made me realize what a sad waste a lot of mesmer has become… There’s so much potential for powerful unique mechanics, but instead they would rather make mesmer do something as boring as revive and cleanse…

mortrialus.3062:

How am I grasping at straws? You’re the one that said Alacrity only works on shatter skills and that’s why Chronomancer is the shatter spec.

1. shatter gives alacrity
2. alacrity speeds up all skills, including shatters
3. you keep shattering, you keep getting alacrity
4. you keep alacrity up, you shatter more often

That’s why chrono is a shatter spec.

edit in bold

“Ambushes are available on the first skill of every weapon set and are designed to complement each weapon’s playstyle. It’s also possible to force all of your clones to use ambush attacks via the Illusionary Ambush utility skill, or by taking the Infinite Horizon trait, which, when active, applies Mirage Cloak to all of your clones.”

Quoting the dev diary on elites, take it as you will. But it is clear that they want clones to use ambush as well.

I could agree with getting rid of Infinite Horizon to justify massive buffs to the Mesmer’s ambush attacks or because you like your suggestion better than the current implementation, but I fail to follow the primary reasoning provided.

Mesmer’s core gameplay and relationship to illusions has always been threefold: (1) benefit from a skill that also summons an illusion (more recently updated to include phantasms), (2) capitalize on illusions in their own capacity, and (3) destroy illusions for empowered effects. The exact nature of skills, illusions, and shatters may change but I struggle to see this dynamic ever truly changing. Mirage is no different, providing additional layers in which to manipulate or alter one or more of these aspects.

The trait could easily be interpreted differently: shatters gain improved functionality with more illusions but illusions are vulnerable, Infinite Horizon allows an additional way to momentarily safeguard illusions and grants an additional way to benefit from them while waiting to shatter. By this logic, Infinite Horizon is the only grandmaster that has an immediate synergy with shatters.

mortrialus.3062:

Saying Chronomancer is THE shatter spec and nothing else is nonsense. I never said ambush skills aren’t supposed to be what Mirage bring to the table and be good at. I just said it’s supposed to shatter. Yeah, Mirage has clone generation in it’s traits as well. The problem is that Deception Skills are really bad so it’s clone generation pales in comparison to Chronomancer’s Chronophantasia.

Wait I’m confused if three traits make Mirage a shatter spec then what Chronomancer’s:

Continuum Split: A whole new shatter
Time Catches Up: Super speed on illusions
Illusionary Reversion: Shatter skills generate a clone if you have enough illusions present.
Chronophantasma: Phantasms are resummoned after a shatter
Seize the Moment: Shatter grants quickness

By my count thats 4 traits and one additional shatter. So by your logic that makes it more of a shatter spec than Mirage. And in your words: “Chronomancer is a defense and support specialization”

So can you clarify why three traits make Mirage a shatter spec while chrono’s 4 traits and new shatter make it defense and support?

Loony.3714:

mortrialus.3062:

Saying Chronomancer is THE shatter spec and nothing else is nonsense. I never said ambush skills aren’t supposed to be what Mirage bring to the table and be good at. I just said it’s supposed to shatter. Yeah, Mirage has clone generation in it’s traits as well. The problem is that Deception Skills are really bad so it’s clone generation pales in comparison to Chronomancer’s Chronophantasia.

Wait I’m confused if three traits make Mirage a shatter spec then what Chronomancer’s:

Continuum Split: A whole new shatter
Time Catches Up: Super speed on illusions
Illusionary Reversion: Shatter skills generate a clone if you have enough illusions present.
Chronophantasma: Phantasms are resummoned after a shatter
Seize the Moment: Shatter grants quickness

By my count thats 4 traits and one additional shatter. So by your logic that makes it more of a shatter spec than Mirage. And in your words: “Chronomancer is a defense and support specialization”

So can you clarify why three traits make Mirage a shatter spec while chrono’s 4 traits and new shatter make it defense and support?

Of course he can’t, because mirage is anything but a shatter spec. Of those 3 traits OP is using as his “argument”, one of them buffs our ambush attacks, another one is a mirage mirror generation trait (so its more related to ambush attacks than it is to shatters), and the other one doesn’t fit thematically with shatters and needs to be reworked.

Mirage centers around mirage cloak and ambush attacks, it has

6 traits related to mirage cloak
3 traits tied to ambush attacks, along with a fourth that helps us gain access to ambush attacks via granting vigor

The best argument OP can come up with involves a maximum of 3 traits, of which 2 of them buff the kittening ambush attacks instead of buffing shatters. Yet we solidly have 6 traits for mirage cloak, and 3 traits that are actually tied to buffing ambush attacks.

Its pretty kittening clear that this is not a shatter spec, but is indeed designed around mirage cloak and ambush attacks. I mean hell, you literally can’t have a GM trait that doesn’t improve your mirage cloak gained from dodging. Every single one, including the minor, buffs either mirage cloak itself (including that gained from mirrors), or buffs dodging, which grants mirage cloak).

tl:dr – (rolls eyes to another winey post on the Mirage)

Once again, fingers crossed but neither have my hopes up that anger will listen to most of our feedback that we have worked so hard to give. But still remaining somewhat hopeful.

Maybe tomorrow’s stress test they fixed a few things BUT if not, here’s hoping they get to some serious work as September is right around the corner.

For the mirage “shatter traits”, they could easily take the illusion/phantasm generation traits from the chronomancer elite, add them to the mirage and then give the chronomancers something different that fits their theme? More support/defensive/alacrity traits?

Or just have it so that clones don’t shatter when you use a shatter skill BUT the shatter effect will still go off and clones stay alive until killed or replaced. Also give us a new F5 that gradually blends the character with their surroundings some how before ending up being stealthier for xx amount of seconds. Or combust into a cloud of sand that grants a longer mirage Cloak, inflicts blind and confusion?

Just a thought…

OriOri.8724:

Loony.3714:

mortrialus.3062:

Saying Chronomancer is THE shatter spec and nothing else is nonsense. I never said ambush skills aren’t supposed to be what Mirage bring to the table and be good at. I just said it’s supposed to shatter. Yeah, Mirage has clone generation in it’s traits as well. The problem is that Deception Skills are really bad so it’s clone generation pales in comparison to Chronomancer’s Chronophantasia.

Wait I’m confused if three traits make Mirage a shatter spec then what Chronomancer’s:

Continuum Split: A whole new shatter
Time Catches Up: Super speed on illusions
Illusionary Reversion: Shatter skills generate a clone if you have enough illusions present.
Chronophantasma: Phantasms are resummoned after a shatter
Seize the Moment: Shatter grants quickness

By my count thats 4 traits and one additional shatter. So by your logic that makes it more of a shatter spec than Mirage. And in your words: “Chronomancer is a defense and support specialization”

So can you clarify why three traits make Mirage a shatter spec while chrono’s 4 traits and new shatter make it defense and support?

Of course he can’t, because mirage is anything but a shatter spec. Of those 3 traits OP is using as his “argument”, one of them buffs our ambush attacks, another one is a mirage mirror generation trait (so its more related to ambush attacks than it is to shatters), and the other one doesn’t fit thematically with shatters and needs to be reworked.

Mirage centers around mirage cloak and ambush attacks, it has

6 traits related to mirage cloak
3 traits tied to ambush attacks, along with a fourth that helps us gain access to ambush attacks via granting vigor

The best argument OP can come up with involves a maximum of 3 traits, of which 2 of them buff the kittening ambush attacks instead of buffing shatters. Yet we solidly have 6 traits for mirage cloak, and 3 traits that are actually tied to buffing ambush attacks.

Its pretty kittening clear that this is not a shatter spec, but is indeed designed around mirage cloak and ambush attacks. I mean hell, you literally can’t have a GM trait that doesn’t improve your mirage cloak gained from dodging. Every single one, including the minor, buffs either mirage cloak itself (including that gained from mirrors), or buffs dodging, which grants mirage cloak).

I never said Ambush Attacks and Mirage Cloak are not the central focus of Mirage. I’m trying to point out that Infinite Horizon has everyone falsely convinced that the design of Mirage involves; Never ever shattering, Only ever using clones and using Infinite Horizon to maximize Ambush Attack Damage (Which Infinite Horizon explicitly does not do). I’m pointing out that mathematically speaking, Dune Cloak is a better skill if your goal is to try and get as much damage out of Ambush Skills as possible (At least the Scepter and Staff ones) because clones have deliberately nerfed and condition damage and that even in the best possible scenario Infinite Horizon is worse.

I think the real problem is that Mirage isn’t an anything spec. It doesn’t do damage, it doesn’t do support, and it doesn’t give any utility. Its a slightly more gimmicky version of what mesmers already did. Thats why we cant decide on what kind of spec its supposed to be.

Loony.3714:

I think the real problem is that Mirage isn’t an anything spec. It doesn’t do damage, it doesn’t do support, and it doesn’t give any utility. Its a slightly more gimmicky version of what mesmers already did. Thats why we cant decide on what kind of spec its supposed to be.

That might have something to do with how they designed it, or rather with how they designed towards a name instead of a playstyle/role. And how they just had to throw mirrors in there after seeing the art instead of throwing them in because they had a concrete plan for the spec. It needs a LOT of work.

That is not just the infinite horizon trait that needs to go away; the entire top traits need to be reworked in my opinion (except maybe the adept trait). Honestly I am surprised that we don’t get more traits that are tuned to playing around with crystals, so here is my proposal.

First of all, if we get more chances to summon crystals and get benefits out of them, then the crystals needs to gain the ability of being destroyed when targeted.
Instead of Shards of Glass, I would put somethinhg like that:
“Once for every three critical hits on a target, you summon a crystal in a random 600 range area around your target. Your count resets when your target dies or when you switch target. 3 seconds cooldown”

Infinite Horizon needs to be baseline. Instead I would bring a damage modifier to ambushed attacks for the character and its illusion for how such a short time we gain the benefit of ambushed attacks:
“For each shards that are either destroyed or shattered, you and your illusion gain a 5% damage boost on ambushed attacks. The effect only trigger when the character tries to successfully land an ambushed attack on the target. Max cap at 20%. 10 seconds cooldown” So basically you loose the crystal count once you have done one ambushed attack and then thre trait goes on cooldown.

As for self deception, though I like the fact we can get some clone generation without relying entirely on dueling, I think it would just be better to rely on dueling and illusion to summon more plantasms and clones. So here is a suggestion:
“Whenever you shatter a crystal and for 3 seconds afterwards, clones you summon gain a 1 second invulnerability frame. 10 seconds cooldown”.

mortrialus.3062:

OriOri.8724:

Loony.3714:

mortrialus.3062:

Saying Chronomancer is THE shatter spec and nothing else is nonsense. I never said ambush skills aren’t supposed to be what Mirage bring to the table and be good at. I just said it’s supposed to shatter. Yeah, Mirage has clone generation in it’s traits as well. The problem is that Deception Skills are really bad so it’s clone generation pales in comparison to Chronomancer’s Chronophantasia.

Wait I’m confused if three traits make Mirage a shatter spec then what Chronomancer’s:

Continuum Split: A whole new shatter
Time Catches Up: Super speed on illusions
Illusionary Reversion: Shatter skills generate a clone if you have enough illusions present.
Chronophantasma: Phantasms are resummoned after a shatter
Seize the Moment: Shatter grants quickness

By my count thats 4 traits and one additional shatter. So by your logic that makes it more of a shatter spec than Mirage. And in your words: “Chronomancer is a defense and support specialization”

So can you clarify why three traits make Mirage a shatter spec while chrono’s 4 traits and new shatter make it defense and support?

Of course he can’t, because mirage is anything but a shatter spec. Of those 3 traits OP is using as his “argument”, one of them buffs our ambush attacks, another one is a mirage mirror generation trait (so its more related to ambush attacks than it is to shatters), and the other one doesn’t fit thematically with shatters and needs to be reworked.

Mirage centers around mirage cloak and ambush attacks, it has

6 traits related to mirage cloak
3 traits tied to ambush attacks, along with a fourth that helps us gain access to ambush attacks via granting vigor

The best argument OP can come up with involves a maximum of 3 traits, of which 2 of them buff the kittening ambush attacks instead of buffing shatters. Yet we solidly have 6 traits for mirage cloak, and 3 traits that are actually tied to buffing ambush attacks.

Its pretty kittening clear that this is not a shatter spec, but is indeed designed around mirage cloak and ambush attacks. I mean hell, you literally can’t have a GM trait that doesn’t improve your mirage cloak gained from dodging. Every single one, including the minor, buffs either mirage cloak itself (including that gained from mirrors), or buffs dodging, which grants mirage cloak).

I never said Ambush Attacks and Mirage Cloak are not the central focus of Mirage. I’m trying to point out that Infinite Horizon has everyone falsely convinced that the design of Mirage involves; Never ever shattering, Only ever using clones and using Infinite Horizon to maximize Ambush Attack Damage (Which Infinite Horizon explicitly does not do). I’m pointing out that mathematically speaking, Dune Cloak is a better skill if your goal is to try and get as much damage out of Ambush Skills as possible (At least the Scepter and Staff ones) because clones have deliberately nerfed and condition damage and that even in the best possible scenario Infinite Horizon is worse.

No one is saying mirage should never ever shatter. People are saying that the way the traits and the spec are designed, shattering is counterproductive. You have failed so far in providing ample evidence to the contrary or even make a solid argument how chronomancer is less of a shatter spec than mirage.

The problem with mirage is that it’s all over the place, turning it into yet another shatter spec (yes, chronomancer is a shatter spec) would require massive reworks trait and skill wise. It might just be better to rework the F1-F4 skill while in mirage spec to fit a non shatter theme, the spec is halfway there already.

mortrialus.3062:

Mirage is clearly supposed to be a shatter spec.

No it’s not. Stop being a special little snowflake or at least bring some solid arguments that aren’t shot down with a basic glimps at traits (without even looking for synergies and rotations).

The best at this point in time would be for arenanet to decide what exactly they want mirage to be, and for better or worse fix the design to fit that role (even if that makes it a Deadeye similar niche specialisation).

Cyninja.2954:

No one is saying mirage should never ever shatter.

Have you seen the trait feedback thread or the various feedback threads on reddit? Because most people absolutely are. Almost everyone who commented on Infinite Horizon want it baseline because they’re convinced that it makes ambush attacks stronger, and that they think Mirage gameplay is supposed to be about setting up clones and having those clones do damage with Ambush attacks, even though clone ambush attacks are explicitly stated to not be about increasing your damage.

Most people who played the Mirage and commented in the trait feedback thread and the reddit feedback thread walked away thinking that phantasms and shatters are useless on it, and that it’s supposed to use clone ambushes for damage because of Infinite Horizon. That most people walked away thinking that is a problem.

My argument isn’t that Mirage is good. It’s not.

My argument isn’t that Mirage is an effective shatter build or better at shatter than Chronomancer. Because it’s not (Chronomancer is better at almost everything than Mirage).

My argument is that among the the many reworks Mirage needs, Removing Infinite Horizon should be one of them because most people walked away from Mirage thinking it isn’t supposed to use phantasms, or ever shatter, and that it’s about Clone DPS.

Cyninja.2954:

People are saying that the way the traits and the spec are designed, shattering is counterproductive.

You’re not wrong that shattering is often counter productive on Mirage (Playing Mirage in it’s entirety is counter productive). But there are multiple traits that are designed to make your shatters a key part of Mirage and the Ambush Attack playstyle by increasing access to Ambush Attacks. I’m not saying that makes it good, or that Chronomancer isn’t leagues better at running shatter builds.

Cyninja.2954:

You have failed so far in providing ample evidence to the contrary or even make a solid argument how chronomancer is less of a shatter spec than mirage.

That was never my argument. I also never said Chronomancer doesn’t use Shatters. Condi Chrono is the best PvP build and it is a pure shatter build that’s strong just because of the Chronophantasma trait.

But that’s not the only reason it’s strong. Part of why it’s strong is because Echo of Memory is one of the the best defensive skills in the game and also because continuum split is in theory and sometimes practice the strongest effective heal in the game. Both of which absolutely are major defensive components to the elite specializaton.

In PvE, Continuum Split is a key part of the chronomancer’s rotation. But that is expressly in the pursuit of pumping out as much quickness and alacrity to the group as possible, sometimes for shortening the cooldown of Moa. Occasionally it’ll use Diversion for more Breakbar damage in a pinch. I don’t know whether that crosses the threshold dividing Not Shatter Spec and Shatter Spec. I think you’ve gotten too hung up on that term and it’s purpose in my argument.

Again:

My argument isn’t that Mirage is good. It’s not good at all.

My argument isn’t that Mirage is better at shatter than Chronomancer or that it is even an effective shatter build or. Because it’s not (Chronomancer is better at almost everything than Mirage).

My argument is that among the the many reworks Mirage needs, Removing Infinite Horizon should be one of them because most people, just in terms of raw numbers from the feedback threads, walked away from Mirage thinking it isn’t supposed to use phantasms, or ever shatter, and that it’s about Clone DPS through Infinite Horizon.

How about responding to my actual argument next time?

mortrialus.3062:

Cyninja.2954:

No one is saying mirage should never ever shatter.

… Almost everyone who commented on Infinite Horizon want it baseline because they’re convinced that it makes ambush attacks stronger

Oh jesus christ. It DOES make ambush attacks stronger. This is a fact. Clones add more physical damage, regardless of how little, and they deal more stacks of conditions. You cannot rationally say that IH does not make ambush attacks better if you have clones out. You literally cannot rationally argue that.

You can argue that it doesn’t make enough of a difference to be worth it, because that is certainly something most people agree with. But you can’t seriously be arguing that it doesn’t make ambush attacks with clones stronger.

This thread is over, you’re nothing more than a troll.

mortrialus.3062:

Cyninja.2954:

No one is saying mirage should never ever shatter.

Have you seen the trait feedback thread or the various feedback threads on reddit? Because most people absolutely are. Almost everyone who commented on Infinite Horizon want it baseline because they’re convinced that it makes ambush attacks stronger, and that they think Mirage gameplay is supposed to be about setting up clones and having those clones do damage with Ambush attacks, even though clone ambush attacks are explicitly stated to not be about increasing your damage.

Most people who played the Mirage and commented in the trait feedback thread and the reddit feedback thread walked away thinking that phantasms and shatters are useless on it, and that it’s supposed to use clone ambushes for damage because of Infinite Horizon. That most people walked away thinking that is a problem.

My argument isn’t that Mirage is good. It’s not.

My argument isn’t that Mirage is an effective shatter build or better at shatter than Chronomancer. Because it’s not (Chronomancer is better at almost everything than Mirage).

My argument is that among the the many reworks Mirage needs, Removing Infinite Horizon should be one of them because most people walked away from Mirage thinking it isn’t supposed to use phantasms, or ever shatter, and that it’s about Clone DPS.

Cyninja.2954:

People are saying that the way the traits and the spec are designed, shattering is counterproductive.

You’re not wrong that shattering is often counter productive on Mirage (Playing Mirage in it’s entirety is counter productive). But there are multiple traits that are designed to make your shatters a key part of Mirage and the Ambush Attack playstyle by increasing access to Ambush Attacks. I’m not saying that makes it good, or that Chronomancer isn’t leagues better at running shatter builds.

Cyninja.2954:

You have failed so far in providing ample evidence to the contrary or even make a solid argument how chronomancer is less of a shatter spec than mirage.

That was never my argument. I also never said Chronomancer doesn’t use Shatters. Condi Chrono is the best PvP build and it is a pure shatter build that’s strong just because of the Chronophantasma trait.

But that’s not the only reason it’s strong. Part of why it’s strong is because Echo of Memory is one of the the best defensive skills in the game and also because continuum split is in theory and sometimes practice the strongest effective heal in the game. Both of which absolutely are major defensive components to the elite specializaton.

In PvE, Continuum Split is a key part of the chronomancer’s rotation. But that is expressly in the pursuit of pumping out as much quickness and alacrity to the group as possible, sometimes for shortening the cooldown of Moa. Occasionally it’ll use Diversion for more Breakbar damage in a pinch. I don’t know whether that crosses the threshold dividing Not Shatter Spec and Shatter Spec. I think you’ve gotten too hung up on that term and it’s purpose in my argument.

Again:

My argument isn’t that Mirage is good. It’s not good at all.

My argument isn’t that Mirage is better at shatter than Chronomancer or that it is even an effective shatter build or. Because it’s not (Chronomancer is better at almost everything than Mirage).

My argument is that among the the many reworks Mirage needs, Removing Infinite Horizon should be one of them because most people, just in terms of raw numbers from the feedback threads, walked away from Mirage thinking it isn’t supposed to use phantasms, or ever shatter, and that it’s about Clone DPS through Infinite Horizon.

How about responding to my actual argument next time?

You want a respons, here it is:

I think all your theorycrafting is lacking (to not use harsher words) and you are trying to tie arguments together which make no sense. That’s why you constantly need to clarify and shift arguments in this very thread.

I don’t think mesmer needs another shatter based elite, not at this time. Chronomancer was very sufficient in that regard.

As to Infinite Horizon, I would rather arenanet first decide on how and what direction they want to take Mirage before they start taking out some of the more unique traits which actually provide this elite with some type of uniqueness.

tl;dr: removing Infinite horizon traits does no more or less good for the mirage elite specialisation until arenanet decide what the elite spec is about, so your suggestion is m00t.

OriOri.8724:

mortrialus.3062:

Cyninja.2954:

No one is saying mirage should never ever shatter.

… Almost everyone who commented on Infinite Horizon want it baseline because they’re convinced that it makes ambush attacks stronger

Oh jesus christ. It DOES make ambush attacks stronger. This is a fact. Clones add more physical damage, regardless of how little, and they deal more stacks of conditions. You cannot rationally say that IH does not make ambush attacks better if you have clones out. You literally cannot rationally argue that.

You can argue that it doesn’t make enough of a difference to be worth it, because that is certainly something most people agree with. But you can’t seriously be arguing that it doesn’t make ambush attacks with clones stronger.

This thread is over, you’re nothing more than a troll.

Clones do so little physical damage as to be almost nothing. Dune Cloak increases the damage of Scepter, Staff and Axe ambush more than Infinite Horizon on bleeding targets.

And that doesn’t even cover having three Illusory Duelists out. For condition damage ambushes, a 0 clone ambush with Dune Cloak on a bleeding target results in more damage than a 3 Clone Ambush attack with Infinite Horizon.

But apparently math is trolling.

IH was the most flavorful GM. It felt visually impactful on an elite spec that was otherwise muted. I think this is where the attachment with the trait is coming from.

Both of the other GMs were infinitely better, though. Especially against targets that were not golems…. It would not hurt my feelings to see it deleted.

Ok this stress test has just confirmed how much I LOVE infinite horizon.

Sod all the other traits, this trait is so much fun to use and synergises really well with burst for my build – ie get some clones out, axe 3, or utility blink then ambush into shatter.

The point is not leaving clones up indefinitely casting ambush – it’s having them all cast one ambush and straight into F1 or F2. In the case of staff if you position yourself right and with deceptive evasion you can stack a good bit of might.
On axe it’s better to ambush in close range after axe 3 then shatter.

Cooldowns are such you can get a good cadence going in terms of ambush into shatter into melee with things like axe 2, back into staff and repeat.

Either way it’s chewing through the large pve mobs like butter, better than chrono because both axe and staff cleave everything and I don’t even have the right stats to make use of things like sharper images or precision for more direct damage crit (I want to go viper for hybrid but the demo gear was carrion).

Also I find it surprising how much the evade sharing keeps illusions alive in order to shatter.

There’s a lot of issues to be fixed, but infinite horizon must be in game – either basline for the class or as it is now, because it is so much fun to use. I think if it didn’t exist I’d rather play chrono.

I disagree with the OP. If it turns out that “leave clones out, have them do solid DPS” is not something that currently works, then fix that, make that a thing that works. I don’t want another shatter class. That said, pretty much every traitline in the game has SOME benefits to shatter, and I don’t see them making the Mirage shatters worthless, so I fully expect at least one row of traits that are shatter-based, that doesn’t mean that’s the only row you can pick.

I definitely want the “clone-mancer” Mirage spec, where you only shatter when you have the options to rebuild your squad, or the fight is ending.

Xenon.4537:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Can’t have boonshare, can’t have too much invis time on veil, can’t have a high retaliation build, can’t have the ability to make the frontline invulnerable with a well, can’t have any real damage on calamity or gravity well.

Reading this made me realize what a sad waste a lot of mesmer has become… There’s so much potential for powerful unique mechanics, but instead they would rather make mesmer do something as boring as revive and cleanse…

Yeah, Mesmer has had this problem for quite a while.

We get something unique, and then it gets blasted to hell.

It’s why I’m finally investing time building my Reaper up to prepare for Scourge. Since ANet probably won’t bother tuning down how strong Scourge is.

Even if you tune Scourge’s barrier down, you still have the fact that Scourge literally corrupts boons just by walking next to people with the desert shroud on.