Guild Wars 2

Phoenixfudge.5290:

loseridoit.2756:

the problem is that you are arguing against a class specific skill. Every class should do CC different

This pull makes a mesmer unique in comparison to other classes pull.

oh I agree skills should be unique and powerful in their own way. What I’m saying though is that itV is just a bit too powerful because along with it’s range and unique abilities, it has that near instant cast time with no real tell. A small nerf like the one I mention in the original post would make it balanced.

1 extra second cast time will make an untraited temporal curtain near unusable. The skill will be way to flashy and obvious. Besides, the focus is actually one of the mesmer lowest dps weapon set because the #5 phastasm is just that bad

I dont understand why we cant just have an objective discussion over into the Void and related cc skills instead of shrugging it off with “mesmer is already nerfed alot” or “he’s a thief so it has to be wrong”.
I main a mesmer and love playing my sword/focus set so much that i even invested the time to grind out The Anomaly and Bolt. But even i can admit that in PvP scenarios the pressure into the Void produces is invaluably strong.

HAHAHAHA!

No, really, no! When a thief goes into stealth, I know there is a backstab coming, but I can only GUESS when it will hit me. Maybe within a second, or maybe 4 seconds later.

Sure, many thief players have a rhythm of stealthing and backstabbing, and after I’ve eaten the first 2 backstabs I can ANTICIPATE when the next ones will hit me. But that’s just the player, not the thief class/ability. If a smart thief player varies his timing, I’m toast because I’ll waste my dodge rolls for nothing – aka at the wrong times.

Sorry, but your defending arguments for backstab are INVALID.

Just as INVALID as your arguments regarding “Into the Void”.

And exactly this line of explanation is what makes into the Void so strong as a pressure tool. After you put temporal curtain down you have a 600 radius area denial for a 4-5 second timespan where you can AoE-Pull up to 5 targets in an instant… whenever you want during those 4-5 seconds: an instant aoe displacement
And 600 radius is quite big, for comparison its almost double the size of a traited Glue Bomb.

While placing the temporal curtain has indeed a brief casttime and animation (which is very hard to see on asura) the actual cc effect can be used during any other activity such as channeling a mantra or your mass invis, healing or even while you stomp someone.

There are not many cc skills that are comparable to the amount of pressure itV creates. Anet balances this game mainly for spvp and the point-cap mechanic, thus displacement cc is usually well telegraphed (like banish), affects only single targets, requires close range (like updraft) or has long cd (like shield of absorption 40sec to 25sec itV).
Other really strong cc effects which might need a rebalance are engineers flamethrower knockback (15sec cd, short range, aoe) and throw mines.

I also see the arguement that coming up alot that it needs to be strong because the focus would otherwise be underpowered. Temporal curtain also acts as a light field, so you can use it with iWarden to aoe cleanse conditions (which is worth gold for most mesmer builds) or gain retal with iLeap. Focus can be traited for reflection which makes iWarden and curtain a source of damage and even untraited, the iWarden is able to provide a safe zone with projectile block vs many strong pvp builds like condition engis.

While i personally love playing Sword/Focus on my mesmer, i expected Anet to nerf itV a long time ago, just because it is mandatory and really strong in the current state of sPvP. I just hope they find a way to nerf it without destroying the flair of the skill since it is fun to use…but it is currently to strong in my opinion.

Episoph.5289:

I also see the arguement that coming up alot that it needs to be strong because the focus would otherwise be underpowered. Temporal curtain also acts as a light field, so you can use it with iWarden to aoe cleanse conditions (which is worth gold for most mesmer builds) or gain retal with iLeap. Focus can be traited for reflection which makes iWarden and curtain a source of damage and even untraited, the iWarden is able to provide a safe zone with projectile block vs many strong pvp builds like condition engis.

While i personally love playing Sword/Focus on my mesmer, i expected Anet to nerf itV a long time ago, just because it is mandatory and really strong in the current state of sPvP. I just hope they find a way to nerf it without destroying the flair of the skill since it is fun to use…but it is currently to strong in my opinion.

condition engineer use mostly gernades so there is little chance to use the iwarden as a projectile block and the fact that iwarden spawns behind the enemy make the skill even more useless.

This discussion is really about the untraited focus because traited focus user will leave the skill out but untraited focus user will immediately use into the void

focus phastasm is near crap when it is not traited.

Because of the long cooldown few mesmers take it.. We are extremely squishy and unlike the other cloth classes like ele. we only have two weapon sets where as they essentially have four. Necros have better condition clearing plus an extremely high health pull. Also Engi flame thrower is fine because the KB is offset by just how terrible flame thrower 1 is if anyone is in melee range flame thrower 1 will just say (MISS MISS MISS MISS).

In short: ITV is fine very few mesmers still take it into tourneys especially when DPS is a deciding factor in who wins and well focus just doesn’t really have that.

loseridoit.2756:

Episoph.5289:

I also see the arguement that coming up alot that it needs to be strong because the focus would otherwise be underpowered. Temporal curtain also acts as a light field, so you can use it with iWarden to aoe cleanse conditions (which is worth gold for most mesmer builds) or gain retal with iLeap. Focus can be traited for reflection which makes iWarden and curtain a source of damage and even untraited, the iWarden is able to provide a safe zone with projectile block vs many strong pvp builds like condition engis.

While i personally love playing Sword/Focus on my mesmer, i expected Anet to nerf itV a long time ago, just because it is mandatory and really strong in the current state of sPvP. I just hope they find a way to nerf it without destroying the flair of the skill since it is fun to use…but it is currently to strong in my opinion.

condition engineer use mostly gernades so there is little chance to use the iwarden as a projectile block and the fact that iwarden spawns behind the enemy make the skill even more useless.

This discussion is really about the untraited focus because traited focus user will leave the skill out but untraited focus user will immediately use into the void

focus phastasm is near crap when it is not traited.

Not sure how the iWarden spawning behind the enemy makes it worthless in his projectile block effect.
You can choose which enemy you target and often times its the better choice to not target the enemy player and instead using it on a nearby minion/turret/pet because they cant dodge it, are more likely to eat more dmg hits from iWarden (which deals pretty decent aoe damage with lots of bleed procs with the common 15 dueling minor) and most importantly it ensures that it is easier for you to take cover.
The focus skillset has many uses. A lot of which are very strong if used by a skilled mesmer but the tradeoff is that they are highly situational.
I agree that in most standard situations the iWarden is inferior to iDuelist and iSwordsman but you get a ton of utility in exchange and its up to the mesmer using it wisely and in a skilled manner to make it worth it or not.

There is a reason every top tier tPvP mesmer runs sword/focus at the moment.
Into the Void is really strong in terms of area control and the combo finisher/projectile block offers a lot of utility for the team.

You can even use iWarden on downed players to provide steady, high AoE damage, making rezzing him difficult.

And let me reemphasize: i dont want itV to be nerfed into the ground but in its current state it is simply too strong for the reasons i stated in my previous post and we should be (at least i am) happy that Anet has not nerfed it already.

tl;dr : In a game with pointcontrol as a pvp mechanic focus outclasses other mesmer offhand weapons – itV needs a slight nerf to reduce amount of AoE displacement pressure.

In a game where point control is imperative the focus can pull people off point for a grand total of 2s at best. Other classes have better push off mechanisms guardian hammer 5 for instance is amazing because it has a long duration and when traited a decent CD. They also have AOE point control with staff or offhand shield. Which makes sense and gives them more consistent point control than any other class in the game (consider the weapons that have it and the CDs the relative cooldowns between the weaponsets are about 20s plus giving a good 5-10s of area denial depending which weapon they are taking with them.

In PVP mesmer is better off using something like an off hand sword or pistol because mesmer DPS is more effective at point control than mesmer CC. Plain and simple.

Phoenixfudge.5290:

Funny how your only counter-arguements mention a whole other thief mechanic instead of actually comparing the CC Skill with another CC skill. What if I mained ranger or any other class? Boom. All your bad arguments wouldn’t have any significance, they really don’t in the first place anyways. itV is overpowered whether you’re playing thief, ranger warrior or whatever. Yall need to stay on topic, we are supposed to be talking about general CC and whether itV is overpowered compared to other skills.

[img]http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/38244111.jpg[/img]

Also, throw mine isn’t on the same level as itV. itV can be placed on walls to pull people. At long ranges, throw mine has a clear animation as you can see the hand motion and the mine coming towards you. Compare that with itV where as soon as you see the hand motion and curtain appear you can be pulled.

If you mained ranger, we would be talking about powerful pet mechanics, and you would be complaining about the focus reflection trait, not itv. This is because Rangers aren’t hurt by itv the way thieves are…other classes deal with it just like other knockdowns and cc. It bothers thieves because it is a direct and hard counter to their potentially op’d skill, shadow refuge. I also play a thief in roughly equal amounts as my mesmer, and SR lets me do some pretty great things, like get out of combat when completely outnumbered without dying, or stealth stomping/reviving…something that no other class can do that well. The reason we brought up thief mechanics, was to put it in terms that you would understand, not to QQ about thieves.

You want us instead to compare this pull to other class pulls? Well while we’re at it why not compare our stealth skills to other class stealth skills? Does it make us underpowered that our stealths are not as plentiful or quick casting as yours? The reason we’re not comparing it to other classes is because Mesmers were designed to be kings of control and trickery. Their single pull should be better than other classes, not balanced to be exactly the same. By the same token, necros should have access to a few condition oriented skills that far surpass mesmer condition skills…you don’t see us complaining about not having access to epidemic, do you? It’s because it belongs with necros, and only necros.

In the same way, guardians should have better tanking/healing skills than other classes, eles should have better aoe direct damage than other classes, rangers should have better pet skills and thieves should have better access to stealth and mobility.

When you take a class’s core mechanic and start saying its overpowered because others dont have the same thing, you are arguing for one of three things:
1 – homogenization – everyone plays exactly the same thing, maybe with different colored uniforms. There are no op’d classes because everyone has access to the same things – if this is what you want, try a regular fps.
2 – easy mode – you want everyone else to get nerfed so that you don’t have to try or improve in order to win. What you don’t understand is that this is the same as 1. If one class becomes completely superior to others, everyone will play that class or quit. You wind up with a choice between everyone losing, or everyone playing the same class…in your case, thief.
3 – the illusion of balance – you think your own abilities are so good that you should win 90% of matches, and you ignore evidence that other, more skilled thieves are able to handle the mechanic you’re complaining about just fine. For example, a more cautious thief may hold blinding powder or roll for initiative in reserve in case of getting pulled out of shadow refuge, or may run from a mesmer before getting desperate enough to need shadow refuge (before turning around for a backstab). The problem with not noticing that there are other, indirect solutions to your problem is that rather than learn from your failure, you write off your failure as a game design failure. If a build or a skill threatens this self-delusion, it must be op’d. Even though you don’t realize it, you are still just arguing for 2. -easy mode.

jportell.2197:

In a game where point control is imperative the focus can pull people off point for a grand total of 2s at best. Other classes have better push off mechanisms guardian hammer 5 for instance is amazing because it has a long duration and when traited a decent CD. They also have AOE point control with staff or offhand shield. Which makes sense and gives them more consistent point control than any other class in the game (consider the weapons that have it and the CDs the relative cooldowns between the weaponsets are about 20s plus giving a good 5-10s of area denial depending which weapon they are taking with them.

In PVP mesmer is better off using something like an off hand sword or pistol because mesmer DPS is more effective at point control than mesmer CC. Plain and simple.

So your arguement is that a bunker guardian, built for nodecontrol, is better at area denial therefore itV is a non-issue?
First off, yes, ring of warding is a strong spvp tool. It is balanced via being on a 40 second cd (almost double of itV) and the biggest factor: it has counterplay to it.
Ring of warding only interrupts if you walk into it and it covers about 50% of the smallest nodes. It has a noticeable animation, the guardian is rooted during it, ~1second execute time. You can interrupt the cast or use reactive stability.

The biggest issue for itV is the lack of viable counterplay to it .
You literally have to guess when the mesmer is going to use the aoe pull, so it cant be reliably dodged/blocked. Best you can do is SyG for group stability if you manage to react within the 0.25second casttime of temporal curtain and the possibly instant follow up of pull.

And im not sure if you played tpvp competetively but 2s off point for a 25 second cd with no chance of counterplay is simply very strong. It allows for follow up cc and ~2 capture ticks on the node .
Furthermore im confused as to why you specifically call it “mesmer dps” and “mesmer cc”.
It doesnt matter from which class the damage or cc comes. Control abilities need counterplay with visable animations/long casttimes or long cooldowns.

As far as i’m aware most mesmers on the recent priced pvp tournaments are using sword/focus with either staff or gs. Xeph from Team Paradigm for example.

Episoph.5289:

Not sure how the iWarden spawning behind the enemy makes it worthless in his projectile block effect.

are you kidding me? blocking does no damage which equal no pressure.
Projectile block is worthless because the enemy will still have time to reposition themselves against you. Iwarden spawn behind the enemy which makes position alot more situational

There is a reason why the trait make the iwarden useful because reflect is pressure. Block is not pressure

You can choose which enemy you target and often times its the better choice to not target the enemy player and instead using it on a nearby minion/turret/pet because they cant dodge it, are more likely to eat more dmg hits from iWarden (which deals pretty decent aoe damage with lots of bleed procs with the common 15 dueling minor) and most importantly it ensures that it is easier for you to take cover.
The focus skillset has many uses. A lot of which are very strong if used by a skilled mesmer but the tradeoff is that they are highly situational.
I agree that in most standard situations the iWarden is inferior to iDuelist and iSwordsman but you get a ton of utility in exchange and its up to the mesmer using it wisely and in a skilled manner to make it worth it or not.

situational abilities make the skills weaker.

There is a reason every top tier tPvP mesmer runs sword/focus at the moment.
Into the Void is really strong in terms of area control and the combo finisher/projectile block offers a lot of utility for the team.

No tpvp player uses the iwarden. Not worth the cast time. Everybody yses into the void. A second nerf will render the focus unusble for tpvp

You can even use iWarden on downed players to provide steady, high AoE damage, making rezzing him difficult.

like i said. an untratied iwarden is a very situational skill

And let me reemphasize: i dont want itV to be nerfed into the ground but in its current state it is simply too strong for the reasons i stated in my previous post and we should be (at least i am) happy that Anet has not nerfed it already.

tl;dr : In a game with pointcontrol as a pvp mechanic focus outclasses other mesmer offhand weapons – itV needs a slight nerf to reduce amount of AoE displacement pressure.

of course into the void is strong because iwarden is weak

I got to test Into the Void a lot today in WvW. I can understand that the unpredictability of the skill activation can be irksome to those who want to react to everything in real time, but you have to look at it from the perspective of the Mesmer too. Mesmers rely on the controlled activation in order to make the skill a truly useful defensive tool outside of projectile reflection.

I was fighting against a Thief earlier who came out of nowhere with a backstab, I dodged most of the rest of his burst and he restealthed. I have no idea where the Thief is or what the Thief is going to do so I chuck down temporal curtain knowing that the Thief also has no idea when I’m going to use Into the Void. This immediately balances out the battle as we are both using skills with elements of uncertainty to try and trip each other up. Temporal Curtain is on a 20+ second cooldown and Into the Void has a range of 600. The Thief I played against obviously knew that because, when I chucked down Temporal Curtain he backed off coming out of stealth from a distance with shortbow, filling my face with projectiles. It all seemed to make sense in this encounter.

If it’s really that much of an issue for people, then maybe Temporal Curtain should change colour just before it becomes Into the Void or something. That way all the Thieves can time their dodges and kill me quicker ;-)

Episoph.5289:

The biggest issue for itV is the lack of viable counterplay to it .
You literally have to guess when the mesmer is going to use the aoe pull, so it cant be reliably dodged/blocked. Best you can do is SyG for group stability if you manage to react within the 0.25second casttime of temporal curtain and the possibly instant follow up of pull.

And im not sure if you played tpvp competetively but 2s off point for a 25 second cd with no chance of counterplay is simply very strong. It allows for follow up cc and ~2 capture ticks on the node .
Furthermore im confused as to why you specifically call it “mesmer dps” and “mesmer cc”.
It doesnt matter from which class the damage or cc comes. Control abilities need counterplay with visable animations/long casttimes or long cooldowns.

As far as i’m aware most mesmers on the recent priced pvp tournaments are using sword/focus with either staff or gs. Xeph from Team Paradigm for example.

errr….. the problem is that you are arguing for a counter play to a skill that does no damage. Usually, a pull is a tall tell sign that a mesmer is about to burst which a player should counter that instead

Usually, team should develop a counter play to avoid a mesmer burst rather than his cc. Burst defeats players but not CC attacks. Beside, player have stun breakers and it very simple to disguise any cc attack in the game.

^lol at the stunbreaker reference… Does everyone remember what thieves said when people moaned about the bas venom backstab?
“Bring a stun breaker!” Well here is our counter to you griping about ITV.

jportell.2197:

^lol at the stunbreaker reference… Does everyone remember what thieves said when people moaned about the bas venom backstab?
“Bring a stun breaker!” Well here is our counter to you griping about ITV.

i really dont get it. All builds should have at least one stun breaker or instant to avoid burst

If a mesmer takes his hand and is about to wave it infront of himself and your in a optimal position to be pulled, Doge!

If hes about to arm pump, just keep walking.

^ is how I avoid it.

The LoS thing is kind of broken (as in it shouldn’t work like that) but I don’t think it’s OP, for the most part if your positioned properly you can take the pull and still not be put into a “about to be steam rolled” position.

I don’t use focus often unless a team demands me to run it, and really for the most part I think it’s fine.

Episoph.5289:

The biggest issue for itV is the lack of viable counterplay to it .
You literally have to guess when the mesmer is going to use the aoe pull, so it cant be reliably dodged/blocked. Best you can do is SyG for group stability if you manage to react within the 0.25second casttime of temporal curtain and the possibly instant follow up of pull.

I think you’re using a very narrow definition of “viable counterplay” , if your definition is being able to immediately react to it and dodge roll away, well I agree, that’s probably not going to happen. Then again dodge is kind of overpowered for the same reason, since there’s no way to react to a dodge and un-dodgify it. Backstab has a similar issue.

Counterplay is not just about countering a specific move as it is happening, it is also about countering a strategy. If the strategy is to abuse itV, well then that strategy is still on a cool-down, and the first form of counterplay would be to adjust one’s timing. If itV is being used to interrupt important skills, then the counterplay would be to use fast casting skills, and if needed preceed an important skill with a filler skill (with a longer cast time) so the interrupt gets wasted on that, or to run out of range prior to using that skill…or as a thief, use superior mobility or stealth to get that skill of without the opponent being able to see the cast. If the itv strategy is to keep the opponent incapacitated for some time then counterplay would be stun-breaks/stability. There are several ways to react and get up immediately, so that it doesn’t serve to incapacitate. If itv is being used to counter Shadow Refuge, then the counterplay to that counterplay is to use Shadow Refuge as a decoy, while actually lining up backstabs. There are so many ways to work with this, but you are focusing too much on the cast-time of the skill to notice them. Lastly, if the mesmer is spamming that itv, every time it hits cooldown, the easy way to stop this is to put some pressure on the mesmer so that they have to switch to staff as a defensive option (if they’re GS, then sword/focus is their defensive option). These are all just a few viable forms of counterplay when dealing with fast CC.

Err youll see a lot of mesmers using sword/focus cos theres not many other choices.

As main hand we only have scepter to choose wich…. well…. its kinda crappy with a horrible auto attack tha works best with a power build, a counter and a skill that adds confusion.

As for offhands…. well if we want swiftness theres no other choice. If we dont care about swiftness we have torch with a nice skill on the prestige and with the worst phantasm. Sword has a good phantasm but the block its very situational. Pistol is a nice wep with a good phantasm and a very good CC skill wich is even less telegraphed than ItV and of course theres focus.

Most mesmers pick the focus mostly for swiftness, not for CC. Give mesmers another way of getting swiftness and youll see a lot less x/focus mesmers arround. ItV comes like a nice adittion to the swiftness for most mesmers.

Also claming theres no counterplay….. did you ever thought about using shadowstep when the mesmer uses ItV? You wont only be up and fighting again youll also deny the mesmer the chained skill that will come after if you breake LoS with it wich it will be most likely iWarden or iLeap. Theres a reason why theres so many stun breakers wich, surprisingly, do not only break stunt, they break pulls, knockdowns, fear, etc….

Ohh and not being able to dodge it…. well, idk about you but i actually had to stop casting curtain→ItV instantly cos most ppl dodge it so i actually had to start using it to make ppl waste a dodge instead of pulling them.

Ohh the infamous pull of the walls…. funny thing, youll mostly pull mesmers since even a lil leaf on the ground will cause a lot of our skills to be obstructed. God idk how many times i was on a wall and saw like 4-5 obstructed in a row.

TC→ItV is also probably the only CC we cant conceal in anyway since, even when we are stealthed, the curtain will appear. We have a much more powerfull CC skill (Moa) with a long anymation that, if we want to land it, we can be sure we will land it thx to stealth.

i d just to say:
If we want to add 1 seconds before into the void can be procd because it have to be reactable.

We would also need 1 second daze to thieves exiting from stealth
I don t think an invisible attack is reactable….

Whoever just said ItV has no viable counter can go home. Stability is currently everywhere in PvP/WvW.

The truth of the matter is that it only works so well on bads who are pewing from walls, or standing too near to the edge, or crybad thieves who are getting yanked out of shadow refuge. I have zero sympathy. Any real pvp teams would be saving ItV for pulling people off of stomping/ressing.

The point: if you were actually running with a co-ordinated team with even the most basic application of stability then ItV is nothing. Quite ironic since being inside shadow refuge with stability is the only save/stomp combo with almost non-present counters, but that’s fine, right?

azuzephyr.7280:

Whoever just said ItV has no viable counter can go home. Stability is currently everywhere in PvP/WvW.

The truth of the matter is that it only works so well on bads who are pewing from walls, or standing too near to the edge, or crybad thieves who are getting yanked out of shadow refuge. I have zero sympathy. Any real pvp teams would be saving ItV for pulling people off of stomping/ressing.

The point: if you were actually running with a co-ordinated team with even the most basic application of stability then ItV is nothing. Quite ironic since being inside shadow refuge with stability is the only save/stomp combo with almost non-present counters, but that’s fine, right?

Well said.

Phoenixfudge.5290:

Funny how your only counter-arguements mention a whole other thief mechanic instead of actually comparing the CC Skill with another CC skill. What if I mained ranger or any other class? Boom. All your bad arguments wouldn’t have any significance, they really don’t in the first place anyways. itV is overpowered whether you’re playing thief, ranger warrior or whatever. Yall need to stay on topic, we are supposed to be talking about general CC and whether itV is overpowered compared to other skills.

[img]http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/38244111.jpg[/img]

Also, throw mine isn’t on the same level as itV. itV can be placed on walls to pull people. At long ranges, throw mine has a clear animation as you can see the hand motion and the mine coming towards you. Compare that with itV where as soon as you see the hand motion and curtain appear you can be pulled.

ItV doesn’t do any damage.

I don’t think the focus needs any adjustment at all.

There are only two pulls in the game, that I know of, the guardian gs pull and the mesmer pull, both pulls use essentially the same mechanic, the set up and the pull. The fact that these can occur very close together is not really a problem.

Other forms of crowd control provide even less telegraphing and are single action skills, fear, static fields, caltrops, etc. all have very short cast times and almost no telegraph. pinning shot, etc.

TooBz.3065:

I don’t think the focus needs any adjustment at all.

There are only two pulls in the game, that I know of, the guardian gs pull and the mesmer pull, both pulls use essentially the same mechanic, the set up and the pull. The fact that these can occur very close together is not really a problem.

Other forms of crowd control provide even less telegraphing and are single action skills, fear, static fields, caltrops, etc. all have very short cast times and almost no telegraph. pinning shot, etc.

The gs pull hits you with swords before you are pulled.
There is no indication that you will be pulled by ITV, the only telegraphing is the purple on the ground which doesn’t tell much. There is no projectile to show what you have been pulled by it.

There’s about a .5 sec delay before you can trigger the pull after you lay the field. More than enough time to dodge if you’re not sitting on your hands. No amount of animation is going to keep you from being yanked from a wall. Make Warden move around while he attacks and you can nerf void. Otherwise, stop complaining.

I really don’t understand the problem here at all. It gets used against me in wvw all the time and I have never even been annoyed by it. One of the rare skills a Mesmer can use on a keep wall too, and it’s great against thieves. Though maybe your issue is with it’s use in pvp, then I guess I can’t comment. Now, perma stealth….

Phoenixfudge.5290:

Here’s another related video.

OMG, you almost died there to his massive into the void falling damage burst OPness, took you a whole 2 seconds to recover. Why don’t you just follow your own advice:

Phoenixfudge.5290:

You mention WvW so I assume you are usually aware of potential enemies. If you see a thief unstealth near you then you should be dodging.

So by that same logic, if you are standing near a ledge and you see a mesmer approaching, maybe you should be backing away from the ledge.

Problem solved. You’re welcome.

This isn’t an issue. I mean if you really want to get technical about it. You just steal from the mesmer. If your efforts fail and you need to drop refuge pop the stolen “save yourself”/Lyssa buff and get the stability. You can’t be pulled or pushed.

To be honest, OP has a point. While we’re at it, lets remove mesmers ability to use phantasms, because it’s so broken that you have to rely on them doing your work, and shatter. We should reduce the damage of shatter in half, because only thieves are allowed to burst. We should also get rid of Mesmer invis, and please Anet. GIVE US LONGBOWS!

Episoph.5289:

The biggest issue for itV is the lack of viable counterplay to it .

Yes it has: dodge / stability.
Average success on grabing someone with iTv is 50% to 60% i would say.
Neverending dodging thieves are a pain to catch.
Do we play the same game ? Or maybe SR escape is now broken because it does not provide 100% success rate ?
I am wandering if this message is not a troll….

Nerf mesmer focus? Lol.

It’s fine considering the cooldowns and utlity of the phantasm the weapon brings.

I have to agree with phoenix and episoph on this one. inV needs a slight tweak to make it a little easier to react to it. I honestly wouldn’t mind a one second delay, a half-second delay might be more optimal though.

You could probably argue that dodging / stability is counter-play but you have to be able to predict when they’re tossing itV down. But that’s only reliable if you can have near constant uptime or be able to every possible occasion that they will use itV. Why is it that itV has little to no telegraph when every single other cc that pulls a target to you has a clear telegraph for effective counter-play.

I would possibly like to offer another possible suggestion to give itV a clear telegraph. As episoph pointed out all of the other pull cc’s have a telegraphed projectile so if Anet altered the cast animation slightly to make it more apparent that a wall is going down. e.g. changing the animation so the mesmer actually tosses something onto the ground or even something as ridiculous as the mesmer shooting a laser at the ground with his hand. That way you know the wall is going down and you can react to it but the pull will still be instant.

I really don’t see a downside to a slight alteration to itV. More ways of counter-play means there are more ways I can mess with other peoples minds. So if anything this would be a slight buff.

Honestly though some of the arguments here have been ridiculous.

• you play a thief
• don’t nerf my mesmer
• focus 5 stinks

This should be a discussion about the skill itV and possible ways to make it more balanced. And as such it would be awesome to keep this discussion about inV as it compares to similar skills. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pull

For people saying there is no tell… Laying down the curtain is the tell… This is the same logic that thieves use when saying “you know a back stab is coming if a thief stealths” Which they have used to justify how that class works and that is fine.

jportell.2197:

For people saying there is no tell… Laying down the curtain is the tell… This is the same logic that thieves use when saying “you know a back stab is coming if a thief stealths” Which they have used to justify how that class works and that is fine.

well the tpvp players are commenting on into the void

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IIKjxfuKBqw#t=3497s

they just wanted a small visual for the skill

jportell.2197:

For people saying there is no tell… Laying down the curtain is the tell… This is the same logic that thieves use when saying “you know a back stab is coming if a thief stealths” Which they have used to justify how that class works and that is fine.

There is no delay for the pull so you can be pulled as soon as you notice the curtain.
So its not much of a tell if there is no time to react, you have to predict when its used.

Super Riceman.8702:

jportell.2197:

For people saying there is no tell… Laying down the curtain is the tell… This is the same logic that thieves use when saying “you know a back stab is coming if a thief stealths” Which they have used to justify how that class works and that is fine.

There is no delay for the pull so you can be pulled as soon as you notice the curtain.
So its not much of a tell if there is no time to react, you have to predict when its used.

And you still have the cast time for temporal curtain as a warning… Just like everyone else sees the cast time for CnD…

jportell.2197:

For people saying there is no tell… Laying down the curtain is the tell… This is the same logic that thieves use when saying “you know a back stab is coming if a thief stealths” Which they have used to justify how that class works and that is fine.

So here are the numbers of how long it takes to pull after the temporal curtain appears. I frapsed the game and wrote down the frames of:

• When did the temporal curtain start to get drawn (combo box is visible before the whole thing is completely shown)
• When did the Into the Void ability pull the golems

Here are the numbers:
Temporal Curtain was shown at frame number 302. The golems got pulled at frame number 304. 2 frames from display to pull. Frapsed it @60Fps.
So time from appearance of the curtain to pull is:
(304-302)/60fps = 0.033 or 33ms. With a latency of 57 in this moment, I would get pulled before I could actually see the temporal curtain.
Sorry man, numbers don’t lie

Phoenixfudge.5290:

@ Jackums

I’ve already established that the animation and activation is way too quick for anyone to noticeably see and react too. I don’t know why people keep trying to argue that there is a good tell for itV, there isn’t.

No, you’ve claimed that the animation and activation is way too quick. Your claim is in dispute, so you haven’t established anything.

Varonth.5830:

Here are the numbers:
Temporal Curtain was shown at frame number 302. The golems got pulled at frame number 304. 2 frames from display to pull. Frapsed it @60Fps.
So time from appearance of the curtain to pull is:
(304-302)/60fps = 0.033 or 33ms. With a latency of 57 in this moment, I would get pulled before I could actually see the temporal curtain.
Sorry man, numbers don’t lie

Your numbers discount the actual cast time of temporal curtain. You don’t get the visual indicator you want just because you want it.

AhmNee.3801:

Varonth.5830:

Here are the numbers:
Temporal Curtain was shown at frame number 302. The golems got pulled at frame number 304. 2 frames from display to pull. Frapsed it @60Fps.
So time from appearance of the curtain to pull is:
(304-302)/60fps = 0.033 or 33ms. With a latency of 57 in this moment, I would get pulled before I could actually see the temporal curtain.
Sorry man, numbers don’t lie

Your numbers discount the actual cast time of temporal curtain. You don’t get the visual indicator you want just because you want it.

Thankfully, if needed you can just cast it while stealthed.
But ok, the ability Temporal Curtain does have a casttime, like other (single target) pulls.
You know what it also doesn’t have. A flight time. People don’t react to the tiny arm animation a small asura behind some Norns, clones and about 1 billion different particle effects does. They react to an incoming projectile… which doesn’t exists.

As I linked this in another thread, it is just as valid in this discussion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIKjxfuKBqw&feature=player_detailpage#t=3488s

Todays state of the game, and the talk about this ability.

Or a thief could stealth behind a norn and you’d never see that backstab coming. For one, people remember the times that something goes off perfectly and don’t remember the times that it completely fizzles.

That being said, it’s also a moderate cooldown that does no damage on it’s own.

If you’ve noticed a mesmer carrying a focus, I’d think it’s something you’ve got to be ready for just like if you’ve noticed a thief, you have to be more aware when there were 4 people on the field and now there are 3.

Just so you know, the cast time for my temporal curtain is 1/4 of a sec, then itV is instant as soon as it’s down.

Roughly the same activation time as Heartseeker, then.
Wait, those can’t be compared. Into the Void doesn’t deal 7-12k damage.

Varonth.5830:

jportell.2197:

For people saying there is no tell… Laying down the curtain is the tell… This is the same logic that thieves use when saying “you know a back stab is coming if a thief stealths” Which they have used to justify how that class works and that is fine.

So here are the numbers of how long it takes to pull after the temporal curtain appears. I frapsed the game and wrote down the frames of:

• When did the temporal curtain start to get drawn (combo box is visible before the whole thing is completely shown)
• When did the Into the Void ability pull the golems

Here are the numbers:
Temporal Curtain was shown at frame number 302. The golems got pulled at frame number 304. 2 frames from display to pull. Frapsed it @60Fps.
So time from appearance of the curtain to pull is:
(304-302)/60fps = 0.033 or 33ms. With a latency of 57 in this moment, I would get pulled before I could actually see the temporal curtain.
Sorry man, numbers don’t lie

so you are saying that the entire combo happens faster than the 1/4second cast time? Yeah… that’s believable /sarcasm. And once again this skill is on a long cooldown when and the focus is half a weapon in a pvp scenario UNLESS traited and if traited then the Mesmer doesn’t use ITV right away… Something funny…. I have had a thief drop SR and I thought to myself “FOCUS PULL!” Did the focus pull… and he didn’t come out of SR… apparently you can dodge inside the SR without popping out of the circle! Sounds like a viable freaking counter play to me.

Honestly what difference would it make? Instant pull or goat you into dodging then use it when you can’t counter?

Vase.1056:

This should be a discussion about the skill itV and possible ways to make it more balanced. And as such it would be awesome to keep this discussion about inV as it compares to similar skills. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pull

That’s a fairly big fallacy, though. It’s completely meaningless how ItV compares to other pulls. Reason is, those are on other classes. Other classes have other selections of other weapon skills, traits and utility skills, making exact carbon copies of skills have different strength, just by being on a different class.

Taken individually (i.e.: I’m fighting alone), ItV isn’t even powerful enough to make up for the fact that I have to commit 30 trait points + runes to getting run speed, alternatively enemies can very easily disengage from fighting me. If I had a 25% runspeed signet and perma-swiftness, yes, I could see how ItV could be “too” powerful.
But it’s on the slowest class, allowing to slow down enemy targets who do run faster than us.

In short, “How it compares to other pulls” is exactly the wrong way to look at any ability on any class.
“The other abilities on the weapon are weak” is much better already, if still flawed.
“What’s the context” is the better one.

Carighan.6758:

That’s a fairly big fallacy, though. It’s completely meaningless how ItV compares to other pulls. Reason is, those are on other classes. Other classes have other selections of other weapon skills, traits and utility skills, making exact carbon copies of skills have different strength, just by being on a different class.

Taken individually (i.e.: I’m fighting alone), ItV isn’t even powerful enough to make up for the fact that I have to commit 30 trait points + runes to getting run speed, alternatively enemies can very easily disengage from fighting me. If I had a 25% runspeed signet and perma-swiftness, yes, I could see how ItV could be “too” powerful.
But it’s on the slowest class, allowing to slow down enemy targets who do run faster than us.

In short, “How it compares to other pulls” is exactly the wrong way to look at any ability on any class.
“The other abilities on the weapon are weak” is much better already, if still flawed.
“What’s the context” is the better one.

I’d also like to point out that using ItV as a long range pull means that you have to choose between the swiftness to catch up with them, or pulling them backwards for an extra shot or two. You don’t get both- using ItV means you won’t get the swiftness temporal curtain provides.

If the skill didn’t have its moderate cool down, maybe. Pull strength is based on how close someone is to the curtain, and it can even be used to fling someone away from you. Into the void has always been a utility pull. Its good, but it only really shines in team situations because mesmers don’t have the strongest skills to capitalize on it offensively. The skill is also doubles as an escape aid. The verdict- balanced. If you’re having issues from this skill consider this: if curtain is being dropped and a mesmer isn’t running, they are gonna pull you 99% of the time. Predicting actions is just as important as reacting to tells.

TheGuy.3568:

Honestly what difference would it make? Instant pull or goat you into dodging then use it when you can’t counter?

Funny, that’s exactly what I would answer to a thief saying “you can just dodge backstab if you see the thief going in stealth”.
If it can be delayed, it becomes a mind game between the user and the defender. In case of a bad guess with backstab, someone’s gonna loose a kidney or two. In case of ItV, someone’s gonna… be pulled without any damage? OP as hell! Joke aside, the punishment for a bad guess is on the really low end compared to other skill with guess to be had.
Can’t say ItV is perfectly balanced or not, but there is obviously more important balance matters than that. It is at most “powerful”, not OP.

I don’t see why nerfing this is needed when:

1. D/D eles have numerous other PbAoEs and CCs to their arsenal, such as Shocking Aura, Frozen Burst, Updraft, etc.
2. Thieves can basically insta-stealth an entire party and cause all opponents to lose target and be thrown into confusion on who to kill/follow
3. A necro can stack up 7+ different conditions on someone and then near-immediately spread all those conditions to everyone around him on a 600 range radius
with only a 12 seconds CD.
4. Blah blah blah.

It’s how this game is; learn to play. If you really want a delay/tell for all such skills, then go play a turned-based RPG game.

Phoenixfudge.5290:

@ Jackums

I already know what specific situations to anticipate an itV. Outside of these situations, one cannot anticipate itV. A mesmer carrying a focus is not a good indication of when he will use the curtain but that he has the ability to.

I’ve already established that the animation and activation is way too quick for anyone to noticeably see and react too. I don’t know why people keep trying to argue that there is a good tell for itV, there isn’t. As soon as the curtain is visible a mesmer can activate itV. Both setting the curtain and activating itV takes less than a second I don’t see the posting of the video as counter productive it supports my arguement. You can see the golem get pulled as soon as the curtain appears. The same happened to me in the second video. Less than a second.

As for thieves stealthing out of combat before you can see them, that’s a another story.

I could tell you for a thief immediately too.

There’s a lot that could be said which, more than anything, amounts to a simple “Err, No.” But here’s a few points I’ll throw in.

1) For thieves, don’t rely on stealth so much if you’re concerned. If you want to, well, you hardly have anything to worry about seeing as there’s nothing more powerful in this game than stealth to begin with. It’s the auto run-away win button.

2) Temporal curtain deals no damage. It’s merely a CC, and hardly the most punishing. If you’re getting beat up by following effects then get more toughness/vitality. If you die it’s your own fault for getting in over your head to begin with.

3) While you might not see a tell, there is a delay between laying the curtain, and pulling, and, to be frank, it sucks. There’s no reason to increase the duration on an effect that’s already present.