Guild Wars 2

Phantasm builds don’t work. This is in part because you inherently don’t want to shatter. Most Mesmer power is tied to shattering.

The other problem is that the enemy can easily kill your pets without penalty.

Hence again, my suggestion to return clone death to the mix. The skill would come in placing and sacrificing the clones.

Ithilwen.1529:

Phantasm builds don’t work. This is in part because you inherently don’t want to shatter. Most Mesmer power is tied to shattering.

I admire that you are trying to fix problems with mesmer, I really do, but I think you need to look closer to this part in particular. Why don’t mesmers want to shatter their phantasms in a phantasm build? Its because too much of our damage comes from phantasms and a shatter can’t make up for it.

Moving phantasms to pure utility, like iAvenger, iDisenchanter, or iDefender could do wonders to help with this regard since shattering would no longer mean gutting your own damage for a rather long time in a PvP setting.

From the topic title I was horrified that mesmers across the globe were going to unite and take over the world. That would be a very, very pink and confusing world…

OriOri.8724:

Ithilwen.1529:

Phantasm builds don’t work. This is in part because you inherently don’t want to shatter. Most Mesmer power is tied to shattering.

I admire that you are trying to fix problems with mesmer, I really do, but I think you need to look closer to this part in particular. Why don’t mesmers want to shatter their phantasms in a phantasm build? Its because too much of our damage comes from phantasms and a shatter can’t make up for it.

Moving phantasms to pure utility, like iAvenger, iDisenchanter, or iDefender could do wonders to help with this regard since shattering would no longer mean gutting your own damage for a rather long time in a PvP setting.

The issue I have with this is a simple one.

ANET will almost certainly not give us enough damage to compensate for the loss of, (mostly hypothetical,) Phantasm damage.

If they did, there’d be no reason to shatter at all. I continue to think on death traits are a better solution.

Ithilwen.1529:

OriOri.8724:

Ithilwen.1529:

Phantasm builds don’t work. This is in part because you inherently don’t want to shatter. Most Mesmer power is tied to shattering.

I admire that you are trying to fix problems with mesmer, I really do, but I think you need to look closer to this part in particular. Why don’t mesmers want to shatter their phantasms in a phantasm build? Its because too much of our damage comes from phantasms and a shatter can’t make up for it.

Moving phantasms to pure utility, like iAvenger, iDisenchanter, or iDefender could do wonders to help with this regard since shattering would no longer mean gutting your own damage for a rather long time in a PvP setting.

The issue I have with this is a simple one.

ANET will almost certainly not give us enough damage to compensate for the loss of, (mostly hypothetical,) Phantasm damage.

If they did, there’d be no reason to shatter at all. I continue to think on death traits are a better solution.

I disagree (on the last part, its a toss up as to whether our damage would be increased enough if phantasm damage was removed). MW could still be used for a burst. Diversion would still be critical for on demand interrupts, likewise Distortion would still be essential for on demand distortion. Cry of Frustration would remain exactly the same as it is now, ignored by most people who are mediocre at mesmer. The key thing though, is that if phantasms were utility summons, using our class mechanic wouldn’t cripple our damage. No other class has to sacrifice their damage output to use their class mechanic. None, so why should mesmer have to do so?

On death traits, while they would be fun to use, wouldn’t solve this underlying issue that our class mechanic actively works against our sustained damage output.

That, I think was the reasoning for Chrono phantasma. If one can shatter often enough, the thinking goes, damage is sustained.

I don’t think the concept works in practice though. Also that does nothing for Phantasm builds, PU and the like.

On death would at least give some return for clones cleaved before they could be used. This would be a stop gap form of sustained damage.

I envision putting out my “damage phantasm” as Osicat once referred to it and then going after the enemy with clones and auto attack. This would be a form of sustained damage. The clones would be small bombs to add to my other attack skills.

phantasm build should be added as its our core design. the dmg should be as a sustain dmg and not burst

burst- shatter build (like thief) condi or dmg (later need boost to dmg)
sustain – phantasm build like ranger with pet should now be harder to kill and attack bit more often. could split to defense sustain or offense sustain.
support – another build which got gutted with chrono line and wells. no with no boons, no healing.

if those 3 builds were an option you would see more diversity, fun, tactic and mind game in all game modes

messiah.1908:

phantasm build should be added as its our core design. the dmg should be as a sustain dmg and not burst

burst- shatter build (like thief) condi or dmg (later need boost to dmg)
sustain – phantasm build like ranger with pet should now be harder to kill and attack bit more often. could split to defense sustain or offense sustain.
support – another build which got gutted with chrono line and wells. no with no boons, no healing.

Honestly the devs are seriously struggling to have the amount of work hours on deck to make one setup work per class.

And you want multiple. That’s entirely utopian.

If anything we should be campaigning to collapse the options. Maybe Mesmers should just be a burst damage class, in all game modes, always, and be built around that (which also implies PvE needs elements which are much easier with burst compared to sustained damage).

I mean I’d have never thought that I’d like the way WoW does their classes in hindsight (in reality each spec is a unique class entirely, but each spec only has one real way they play as the triplets of talents and the legendary skills are all more or less fixed for each setup), but I do. At least they have a consistent design target for each spec and each expansion. So everything is built around that.

GW2 is lacking that. They have this “everyone should have some of everything” goal, which ultimately just means no one feels like they do anything particularly well.

Carighan.6758:

messiah.1908:

phantasm build should be added as its our core design. the dmg should be as a sustain dmg and not burst

burst- shatter build (like thief) condi or dmg (later need boost to dmg)
sustain – phantasm build like ranger with pet should now be harder to kill and attack bit more often. could split to defense sustain or offense sustain.
support – another build which got gutted with chrono line and wells. no with no boons, no healing.

Honestly the devs are seriously struggling to have the amount of work hours on deck to make one setup work per class.

And you want multiple. That’s entirely utopian.

If anything we should be campaigning to collapse the options. Maybe Mesmers should just be a burst damage class, in all game modes, always, and be built around that (which also implies PvE needs elements which are much easier with burst compared to sustained damage).

I mean I’d have never thought that I’d like the way WoW does their classes in hindsight (in reality each spec is a unique class entirely, but each spec only has one real way they play as the triplets of talents and the legendary skills are all more or less fixed for each setup), but I do. At least they have a consistent design target for each spec and each expansion. So everything is built around that.

GW2 is lacking that. They have this “everyone should have some of everything” goal, which ultimately just means no one feels like they do anything particularly well.

No. This game is sold as a game where you can play as you want, and forcing each class into 1 and only 1 role is the exact opposite of that.

Fay.2357:

OriOri.8724:

Fay.2357:

OriOri.8724:

Carighan.6758:

messiah.1908:

phantasm build should be added as its our core design. the dmg should be as a sustain dmg and not burst

burst- shatter build (like thief) condi or dmg (later need boost to dmg)
sustain – phantasm build like ranger with pet should now be harder to kill and attack bit more often. could split to defense sustain or offense sustain.
support – another build which got gutted with chrono line and wells. no with no boons, no healing.

Honestly the devs are seriously struggling to have the amount of work hours on deck to make one setup work per class.

And you want multiple. That’s entirely utopian.

If anything we should be campaigning to collapse the options. Maybe Mesmers should just be a burst damage class, in all game modes, always, and be built around that (which also implies PvE needs elements which are much easier with burst compared to sustained damage).

I mean I’d have never thought that I’d like the way WoW does their classes in hindsight (in reality each spec is a unique class entirely, but each spec only has one real way they play as the triplets of talents and the legendary skills are all more or less fixed for each setup), but I do. At least they have a consistent design target for each spec and each expansion. So everything is built around that.

GW2 is lacking that. They have this “everyone should have some of everything” goal, which ultimately just means no one feels like they do anything particularly well.

No. This game is sold as a game where you can play as you want, and forcing each class into 1 and only 1 role is the exact opposite of that.

So this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, because of how toxic the garbage ‘play how you want’ mindset is to this game.

You are pulling that quote completely out of context and using it in a way that it was not intended. The way that was stated was in the sense that players are not required to play WvW for things. They’re not required to PvP or to do specific kinds of PvE. You get rewarded for any type of play in GW2, and therefor you can play how you want.

It was NOT intended as ‘oh, I can slap together whatever stupid combination of garbage on my character and expect groups to take me because I’m a special snowflake playing how I want’.

The lack of a holly trinity in this game shows otherwise though. No one is forced into a healing role. No one is forced into a damage role. Yes, some classes are better at those roles than others are, but no class is forced into them like they would be in other games. This is very much about both which game mode and how you want to play each class.

No, you’re wrong. Just because you want it to mean something else doesn’t automatically make it that way.

Although to be fair, anything works for solo q, as long as its not super kittened. I mean, you can play anything not meta for casual play.

Fay.2357:

OriOri.8724:

Fay.2357:

OriOri.8724:

Carighan.6758:

messiah.1908:

phantasm build should be added as its our core design. the dmg should be as a sustain dmg and not burst

burst- shatter build (like thief) condi or dmg (later need boost to dmg)
sustain – phantasm build like ranger with pet should now be harder to kill and attack bit more often. could split to defense sustain or offense sustain.
support – another build which got gutted with chrono line and wells. no with no boons, no healing.

Honestly the devs are seriously struggling to have the amount of work hours on deck to make one setup work per class.

And you want multiple. That’s entirely utopian.

If anything we should be campaigning to collapse the options. Maybe Mesmers should just be a burst damage class, in all game modes, always, and be built around that (which also implies PvE needs elements which are much easier with burst compared to sustained damage).

I mean I’d have never thought that I’d like the way WoW does their classes in hindsight (in reality each spec is a unique class entirely, but each spec only has one real way they play as the triplets of talents and the legendary skills are all more or less fixed for each setup), but I do. At least they have a consistent design target for each spec and each expansion. So everything is built around that.

GW2 is lacking that. They have this “everyone should have some of everything” goal, which ultimately just means no one feels like they do anything particularly well.

No. This game is sold as a game where you can play as you want, and forcing each class into 1 and only 1 role is the exact opposite of that.

So this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, because of how toxic the garbage ‘play how you want’ mindset is to this game.

You are pulling that quote completely out of context and using it in a way that it was not intended. The way that was stated was in the sense that players are not required to play WvW for things. They’re not required to PvP or to do specific kinds of PvE. You get rewarded for any type of play in GW2, and therefor you can play how you want.

It was NOT intended as ‘oh, I can slap together whatever stupid combination of garbage on my character and expect groups to take me because I’m a special snowflake playing how I want’.

The lack of a holly trinity in this game shows otherwise though. No one is forced into a healing role. No one is forced into a damage role. Yes, some classes are better at those roles than others are, but no class is forced into them like they would be in other games. This is very much about both which game mode and how you want to play each class.

No, you’re wrong. Just because you want it to mean something else doesn’t automatically make it that way.

I’m not wrong, you’re just quick to mislabel something. Even in raids classes aren’t locked to a single playstyle. Chronos can tank, like they almost always do, or they can go condi for matthias. Druids can go as a healer or a condi ranger. No class is locked into a single playstyle like you claim they are. This game wasn’t designed around a class only having 1 way to be played.

OriOri.8724:

Fay.2357:

OriOri.8724:

Fay.2357:

OriOri.8724:

Carighan.6758:

messiah.1908:

phantasm build should be added as its our core design. the dmg should be as a sustain dmg and not burst

burst- shatter build (like thief) condi or dmg (later need boost to dmg)
sustain – phantasm build like ranger with pet should now be harder to kill and attack bit more often. could split to defense sustain or offense sustain.
support – another build which got gutted with chrono line and wells. no with no boons, no healing.

Honestly the devs are seriously struggling to have the amount of work hours on deck to make one setup work per class.

And you want multiple. That’s entirely utopian.

If anything we should be campaigning to collapse the options. Maybe Mesmers should just be a burst damage class, in all game modes, always, and be built around that (which also implies PvE needs elements which are much easier with burst compared to sustained damage).

I mean I’d have never thought that I’d like the way WoW does their classes in hindsight (in reality each spec is a unique class entirely, but each spec only has one real way they play as the triplets of talents and the legendary skills are all more or less fixed for each setup), but I do. At least they have a consistent design target for each spec and each expansion. So everything is built around that.

GW2 is lacking that. They have this “everyone should have some of everything” goal, which ultimately just means no one feels like they do anything particularly well.

No. This game is sold as a game where you can play as you want, and forcing each class into 1 and only 1 role is the exact opposite of that.

So this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, because of how toxic the garbage ‘play how you want’ mindset is to this game.

You are pulling that quote completely out of context and using it in a way that it was not intended. The way that was stated was in the sense that players are not required to play WvW for things. They’re not required to PvP or to do specific kinds of PvE. You get rewarded for any type of play in GW2, and therefor you can play how you want.

It was NOT intended as ‘oh, I can slap together whatever stupid combination of garbage on my character and expect groups to take me because I’m a special snowflake playing how I want’.

The lack of a holly trinity in this game shows otherwise though. No one is forced into a healing role. No one is forced into a damage role. Yes, some classes are better at those roles than others are, but no class is forced into them like they would be in other games. This is very much about both which game mode and how you want to play each class.

No, you’re wrong. Just because you want it to mean something else doesn’t automatically make it that way.

I’m not wrong, you’re just quick to mislabel something. Even in raids classes aren’t locked to a single playstyle. Chronos can tank, like they almost always do, or they can go condi for matthias. Druids can go as a healer or a condi ranger. No class is locked into a single playstyle like you claim they are. This game wasn’t designed around a class only having 1 way to be played.

PvP high tier they are. You will be fool to run something that is not efficient.

The problem is 0 build diversity.

I think you misunderstood what Pyro said, he said you cannot run something that is just a mish mash of a builds which STILL fall into the category of ANY.

Don’t worry everyone, I’m hear to translate Pyro’s otherwise clear explanation.

• Anet’s marketing department created a concept we all know as “Play the way you want”.

• When people, departments, or whatever make a statement, they do so with specific meaning and/or intent. You may refer to this as a definition.

• The definition of Anet’s marketing for the statement “Play the way you want” was specifically meaning “not required to PvP or to do specific kinds of PvE etc etc…”

• Players have extrapolated this to incorporate their seemingly reasonable ideas regarding class build and balance. This would be the error being taken exception with!

• Clarity before agreement!

• I am amazing – This is clear – We can all agree!

Ross Biddle.2367:

• I am amazing – This is clear – We can all agree!

It is known.

Splitting hairs IMO, but in the end I think you both actually agree that the simple fact of this game having multiple trait lines implies that various reasonable combinations should lead to a fairly even result. Now that last part is certainly highly subjective, but if you’re not trying to split hairs you know full and well what it means.

Build diversity was supposed to be the key reason behind the traitline overhaul, and all we’ve seen since especially HoT has been the exact opposite of build diversity.

Windwalker.7421:

Build diversity was supposed to be the key reason behind the traitline overhaul, and all we’ve seen since especially HoT has been the exact opposite of build diversity.

Yeah, that’s not how I understood it actually. I saw the traitline overhaul as a change purely designed to limit build diversity. It made the traitlines much simpler and drastically reduced the amount of potential combinations. In theory, this was supposed to make it more possible for the devs to balance things. In reality it just ended up showing how the devs are equally incapable of balancing a simple system as they are incapable of balancing a complicated system.

Windwalker.7421:

Splitting hairs IMO, but in the end I think you both actually agree that the simple fact of this game having multiple trait lines implies that various reasonable combinations should lead to a fairly even result. Now that last part is certainly highly subjective, but if you’re not trying to split hairs you know full and well what it means.

Build diversity was supposed to be the key reason behind the traitline overhaul, and all we’ve seen since especially HoT has been the exact opposite of build diversity.

Agreed.

Open world pve, hotjoin pvp, low level fractals and certain dungeons and even pug zerg vs zerg wvw could all be seen as “play whatever you like”.

But higher level instanced and competitive content naturally forces min/maxing in order to be successful – this includes spvp, GvG or solo/small group roaming (yes it does), high tier fractals, certain dungeons and raids.

However even in that high end content it would be nice to see a reasonable amount of build diversity for each class that allows players to modify each class into any of the three Pillar’s of this game’s combat – Damage, Control and Support – or combination of these with each class offering it’s own “flavour” associated with that aspect.

Yes these are not strict “roles” as such because roles differ according to content. Decap is not valid in raids as there are no cap points and enhancing dps through quickness sharing is not applicable to pvp.

But even so, each of these high end game modes, be it instanced pve (raids/fractals) or spvp should offer at least a few builds per class focusing on different aspects of the game’s combat (or mixtures of those). Nevermind the different ways of dealing damage – condition and direct. For example ideally for mesmer in pvp we could have a burst damage builds, a sustained damage bruiser, a support build, a pure control build (for teamfights) and so on…
Otherwise it gets pretty boring with repetitive shatter spam or GS2/F1 burst which is equally as brainless.

So to summarise it’s not necessary to have infinite build options all evenly balanced for high end content, however the current situation of one, maybe two builds per class for high end content is not doing justice to the potential and advertised depth of the combat mechanics available in this game.

Fay.2357:

Ross Biddle.2367:

• I am amazing – This is clear – We can all agree!

It is known.

crystal!

I don’t know where people are getting the idea that phantasm builds don’t work. Maybe that’s the case for sPvP, but I’ve been having a lot of fun and success lately with the build I’m using for roaming in WvW.

The idea that you don’t want to shatter with a phantasm build isn’t really valid. You just need to get used to the right timing for shatters while properly managing your cooldowns. With Persistance of Memory and Chronophantasm you can easily control when phantasms are up and when their skills are off cooldown. Sometimes it’s even worthwhile to use Continuum Shift just for summoning more phantasms.

The improvements made to Phantasmal Defender and Disenchanter from the June 2016 update have also helped a lot. They add lots of survivability and fit this type of build perfectly now. Their cast times and cooldowns are now comparable to other phantasms so it’s easier get them out in a fight. The new on cast effects are a nice bonus too. Overall they’re great for more than just shatter fodder now. If it weren’t for these skills being updated, I probably would’ve agreed that this type of build wasn’t viable.

Here’s my build if anyone’s interested: Phantasm Roamer

To return to the topic, metabattle does list a phantasm build for PvE.

Again, I think on-death traits would be needed to balance such a build to be pvp viable.

The devs expressly mentioned that Chronomancer, “has been on our radar for a while,” and went on to say, “but it’s a delicate situation.”

I interpret that as meaning that they’d like to nerf chrono but realize that would put Mesmer out of pvp generally. On death traits would begin to redress that.

Curunen.8729:

However even in that high end content it would be nice to see a reasonable amount of build diversity for each class that allows players to modify each class into any of the three Pillar’s of this game’s combat – Damage, Control and Support – or combination of these with each class offering it’s own “flavour” associated with that aspect.

Yes these are not strict “roles” as such because roles differ according to content. Decap is not valid in raids as there are no cap points and enhancing dps through quickness sharing is not applicable to pvp.

Fay.2357:

Yeah, that’s not how I understood it actually. I saw the traitline overhaul as a change purely designed to limit build diversity. It made the traitlines much simpler and drastically reduced the amount of potential combinations. In theory, this was supposed to make it more possible for the devs to balance things. In reality it just ended up showing how the devs are equally incapable of balancing a simple system as they are incapable of balancing a complicated system.

I don’t think it’s just the skill balance side of things. It’s also the general game design.

What does decap really mean though? Pushing/pulling things away from a point. Red orbs on VG can be countered by similar skills. Need more enemies that force us to use those mechanics.

Talking about cc, the break bar was a good addition to the game but it could have been better if interrupt traits worked against it. PI headshot thieves and Mesmers would have another type of build that would open up in PvE. Other games have moments where you save then use your heavy hitters. Gw2 kind of lacks those moments/skill design but interrupt traits could fill that burst niche.

Similarly, enemies could use more boons in PvE. Mallyx rev is poor DPS until enemies move and attack often (then it’s better than a PS warrior at times). Similar situation with condi mesmers. Necros are also not top condi DPS anymore. Boon corruption/clearing would add validity to those builds in raids. Enemies attacking or moving frequently or… both at the same time, would add to confusion and torment damage as well. It would even add more validity to support builds that give retaliation and healing to their allies. ~470 retaliation damage with max power in PvE. 1 character giving it to 5 teammates = ~2350 damage per raid boss swing. ~2-3 attacks per second and a Zealot hammer guard healing/retaliating their teammates (who let themselves get hit) will outdps a zerker guard… better yet, an OG immortal mesmer to double those retaliation numbers.

The other thing that works with these tank/aura/retaliation builds is that it affects even 10+ ppl hitting you. Most skills only affect 1, 3 or 5 targets. Need a raid boss with like mini raptor adds that spawn in waves of 40 at a time. That’ll shake up the meta and make other builds viable.

Been forced to play druid in my raid group since we have too many chronos and not enough rangers and I’ve been loving the build diversity that ranger/druid has. Lots of aoe cc and blinds for trash mobs in fractals. Healing in raids. Power support or pure condi dps. This carries over to PvP and WvW too. They are capable of balancing some of the classes to have build variety and other classes aren’t too far off. It’s the content that doesn’t demand/support that variety out of some classes.

OriOri.8724:

No one is forced into a healing role. No one is forced into a damage role. Yes, some classes are better at those roles than others are, but no class is forced into them like they would be in other games.

Eh, it’s been a while since anyone was forced into a healing or tanking role. I mean look at WoW, there is no class which has no damage spec option.

Plenty classes in plenty MMOs “force” you into a damage dealer role, but frankly for one, few players ever mind that, for two, if anything, GW2 did that with all classes until very recently. And still does with virtually all of them and in virtually all contexts.

To return once more to the topic. We are discussing build diversity which is very scant in pvp.

I took a build similar to the “Phantasm Roamer” into PvP, with a little success. I wouldn’t say it’s a good pvp build though.

Most builds will work in pve. I’m looking for a means to make it work in pvp.

with easy job anet can return the support mesmer once again

he heal less than ele build but can give other support like boons (which was nerfed in pvp aoe cleasne , resistance and quickness)

just buff it little more as the shield block already nerfed hard. bring back the boons sharing ability in pvp (since split skills was added) and you can have nice support with portal.
for the shield i would add . every time you block attack you reduce cd by 0.5 sec

power dmg dealer build the same. just buff the gs aa dmg.

and new concept with phantasm might be harder rework and balance for other builds so can be saved for later

simple as that

I don’t really see the support Mesmer becoming a strong thing in pvp. Still, clone death would re expand quite a few options. Perhaps even a support playstyle.

Ithilwen.1529:

I don’t really see the support Mesmer becoming a strong thing in pvp. Still, clone death would re expand quite a few options. Perhaps even a support playstyle.

Churning out unlimited cripple and weakness while kiting endlessly will prop anything up. Especially with all our post HoT sustain power.

That would be more skilled play than very high evade or block/heal. After all, the other player can choose not to spam attacks and kill clones en masse.

Personally I’d love to see PU be a thing again, along with phantasm builds. I think a return of clone death traits would do just that.

Churning out unlimited cripple and weakness

You were just facing mindless melee or equivalent?

while kiting endlessly

Due to stealth (pu combo), nothing to do with one death.
Have you ever try a clonespammer without stealth ?

I get bored of people who cry about eliminate something they don’t like.
It just leads to : as much as cheesy as before, sometimes even more, and 0 diversity.

I’m fed up about shatter who do the coffee, and the full shatter orientation.

Another note : can we hope one day a come back on the speed proc on mantra cast with centaur’s runes ?

One thing about phantasms that is weird to me is that they don’t have some sub skill like a lot of the clone generation weapon skills do.

Sword 3 generates a clone, but you can team up with it to immobolize enemies (and confuse them with swap)
Sword 4 is a block that does all right power damage or can be activated to daze.
Scepter 2 blocks and can be activated to blind.
Staff 2 blinks you backwards (and is a leap finisher).
Greatsword 2… okay yeah this one is pretty bland in comparison (lot of damage/might).

Besides the shield phantasm (which is hilariously strong compared to others in terms of usability) and the utility versions (which do a small version of their auto basically), the other phantasms don’t seem to do anything outside of their attack. Clone generation skills seem to have a lot more utility on a lower cooldown than phantasms (which just hit hard every so often).

EG maybe we can make sub skills on phantasm slots that can be a tiny bit less dependant on the phantasm (effect doubles if its alive maybe but does a little bit if it’s just the mesmer). This could shift some damage reliance away from the phantasms and back to the mesmer while also boosting the power of positioning, and you can still focus phantasms in order to prevent dangerous combos.

Alternatively that could be an elite spec that swaps out shatters with “phantasmal” attacks. f1-4 could light up or hide based on which phantasms are out (if the defender is out, press the button and both will block for 3 seconds or w/e) f5 would be a bonus phantasm or something (maybe a “full” phantasm that mimics your utility casts and could command its own phantasms, kill it and its clones die).

What would fix that is redoing all weapon phantasm skills to work like Shield 4, wherein the phantasm summon is a secondary effect of the skill. Also, remove most if not all of their damage and turn them into utility summons. Shield 4 phantasm is great because it slows and provides alacrity and shield 4 itself is a block, all weapon phantasm skill should be like that. Something along the lines of the following, but for every weapon phantasm

• Phantasmal Warlock could be changed to either apply another stack of every condition on the foe when it strikes or cast chaos storm centered around its target, along with much less damage than currently. Staff 3 could in turn become the attack that phantasmal warlock currently has (ie it deals pretty good damage, dealing more damage for each unique condition on the target)

• Phantasmal Berserker could apply fury to allies and cripple/weakness to enemies when it attacks. GS4 could turn into the skill berserker currently uses (whirling forward to deal heavy damage to the enemy, whirl finisher). Or possibly GS4 could turn into a command like skill that causes 1 berserker to perform this attack immediately (or summon one that performs this attack then goes back to the fury/cripple thing if you don’t have any summoned)

These are just off the top of my head, but I do think phantasms should be primarily utility based, not damage based.

viquing.8254:

Churning out unlimited cripple and weakness

You were just facing mindless melee or equivalent?

while kiting endlessly

Due to stealth (pu combo), nothing to do with one death.
Have you ever try a clonespammer without stealth ?

I get bored of people who cry about eliminate something they don’t like.
It just leads to : as much as cheesy as before, sometimes even more, and 0 diversity.

I’m fed up about shatter who do the coffee, and the full shatter orientation.

---

Another note : can we hope one day a come back on the speed proc on mantra cast with centaur’s runes ?

You’re talking to the wrong guy if you want to burn me down with ideas of sticking to the status quo burst shatter spec. I’m the guy who was running scepter/torch in WvW from release, stuck it to the man with interrupt builds, and rocked with great success such things as Phantrupt even pre trait revamp and Mental(lockdown) Anguish days.

For instance, I know that you could proc on death condi’s by simply destroying your own clones (via generation). No mindless melee or aoe spamming opponent necessary!

Honestly, if you’re going to come to school, listen to teacher. Don’t stand up and try to lecture the class. You’re clearly still learning!

Anyway, now you’ve sat back down, I’m all for build diversity. I also know how GW2 needs to achieve that. I don’t see how you draw the conclusion that therefor clone death is the way forward XD

Here’s an idea! Let’s give Mesmer some builds with good access to cripple and weakness that don’t involve clones being killed by the enemy! /GASP/CONTROVERSY/

I think you’re missing the point. Clone death was a kind of secondary shatter. As such it made shatter better and builds like PU and Phantasm work.

I’d like to see that returned. In doing so it would create more build diversity by breathing life into builds that don’t currently work.

For instance, I know that you could proc on death condi’s by simply destroying your own clones (via generation). No mindless melee or aoe spamming opponent necessary!

Nice, you learned your lesson well.
We have only 1 melee clone, other are ranged.
So unless your ennemies are staying between your clones, you don’t do perma cripple and weakness. Fighting a clonespammer is all about positionning.
But I agree that they can reduce the aoe from 240 to 120.
And remember that during a moment, deceptive evasion didn’t pop more than 3 illusions, so only clones from weapon can trigger on death.

Honestly, if you’re going to come to school, listen to teacher. Don’t stand up and try to lecture the class. You’re clearly still learning!

Cause you are the teacher ???
That sounds a bit pretentious.
It’s not because I didn’t post on this forum every week that I start mesmerising a month ago.
It’s because of people who feel they are omniscient and criticize more with subjective point of view than with raw data that, among others, we lack of diversity today.

When you take a look at every discussion about this subject, the main argument against are :
it is cheesy (subjective), it is passive(subjective), I feel so good playing shatter burst (subjective) that other build are all newbies and so on.

Anyway, now you’ve sat back down

It seem I was sitting too long thoses pasts years…

I don’t see how you draw the conclusion that therefor clone death is the way forward XD

Because there is a mountain between removing a main mecanic and fix it.
I’m just against people who continue critisize on death while the main problem was the synergy it had with other traits.

Here’s an idea! Let’s give Mesmer some builds with good access to cripple and weakness that don’t involve clones being killed by the enemy! /GASP/CONTROVERSY/

ironic : good idea, let’s put it on shatter, so my shatter’s description can hit the top of my screen

I’d like to see that returned. In doing so it would create more build diversity by breathing life into builds that don’t currently work.

PU and phantasm work without on death.
For PU, just remember after the 23 june patch, the vast majority of mesmer were running PU in WvW even without on death, like pyro said it’s just a powerfull defensive neutral tool. And currently we can sometimes see PU condi mes in WvW.
For phantasm, the ideal phantasm build run 2 or 3 active phantasm so how on death clone can be usefull in any way ?

The only interest I see on on death is the different gameplay they brought.

viquing.8254:

For instance, I know that you could proc on death condi’s by simply destroying your own clones (via generation). No mindless melee or aoe spamming opponent necessary!

Nice, you learned your lesson well.
We have only 1 melee clone, other are ranged.
So unless your ennemies are staying between your clones, you don’t do perma cripple and weakness. Fighting a clonespammer is all about positionning.
But I agree that they can reduce the aoe from 240 to 120.
And remember that during a moment, deceptive evasion didn’t pop more than 3 illusions, so only clones from weapon can trigger on death.

If you couldn’t manipulate your enemy into position that’s a L2P issue on your part. In conquest it’s very easy to control an enemies movements. In WvW any amateur player knows choosing where and when to engage makes or breaks a fight. PvE, who cares. Since you’re a pro, you know all this.

Redundant pro tip! If you have two phants out, any clone on the field will pop the moment you generate another clone. From weapons or DE on a dodge roll! Right on top of you, and or your favorite enemy!

Anyway, I will grant you, some sort of clone death could be viable under the right circumstance of trait and weapon synergies. I dont know that its worth the time or resources though. You could just play a mine laying engie.

OriOri.8724:

What would fix that is redoing all weapon phantasm skills to work like Shield 4, wherein the phantasm summon is a secondary effect of the skill. Also, remove most if not all of their damage and turn them into utility summons. Shield 4 phantasm is great because it slows and provides alacrity and shield 4 itself is a block, all weapon phantasm skill should be like that. Something along the lines of the following, but for every weapon phantasm

• Phantasmal Warlock could be changed to either apply another stack of every condition on the foe when it strikes or cast chaos storm centered around its target, along with much less damage than currently. Staff 3 could in turn become the attack that phantasmal warlock currently has (ie it deals pretty good damage, dealing more damage for each unique condition on the target)

• Phantasmal Berserker could apply fury to allies and cripple/weakness to enemies when it attacks. GS4 could turn into the skill berserker currently uses (whirling forward to deal heavy damage to the enemy, whirl finisher). Or possibly GS4 could turn into a command like skill that causes 1 berserker to perform this attack immediately (or summon one that performs this attack then goes back to the fury/cripple thing if you don’t have any summoned)

These are just off the top of my head, but I do think phantasms should be primarily utility based, not damage based.

While I’m not convinced that removing the damage components of phantasms is the way forward, this is the sort of post I enjoy and where I was hoping this thread would end up. So some more suggestions (however uninspired they might be)

Focus: phantasm still blocks projectiles and counts as a whirl finisher. Damage is replaced with a melee knockback. Phantasm is summoned in melee so initial effect would be the knockback (To go with the pull on focus4). Initial kb on cast should probably happen regardless of phantasm’s survival rate.

Torch: create a fire field around you which causes burning, then summons a phantasm beside you which grants fury to nearby allies (600 range?) and casts non/low-damaging projectile finishers at your target. Other torch skill would mean you could blast finisher the fire field too.

OffSword: keeping the leap finisher, shares combo effect with the player. Causes aoe weakness (240?) when it hits and grants retaliation to nearby allies.

Pistol: since it’s a single target unload (8 shots) maybe it just applies 4 effects on the one target, getting progressively more severe so you have to lock down the target or time it well to get the full effect. Say, vulnerability then cripple then blind then weakness. Still counts as 8 shots for the purpose of a 20% projectile finisher so you can combo it to also cause confusion. Grants only yourself an offensive boon of some sort (one stack of might on cast, plus one for each of the 4 hits that land? Or two on cast, plus one each time it applies cripple or weakness? I have no sense of what’s overly powerful here)

That would just leave warlock and berserker. (Excluding underwater because I don’t even know what they do now). Not that there’s anything wrong with the suggestions above but coming up with stuff is fun.

Berserker: I agree (with whoever said it) that some kind of mobility skill could be good, maybe a two part personal teleport like a mix of thief’s infiltrator’s strike and mesmer’s portal. Use to place the exit initially, then within some time window (6secs?) you can use again to stab the ground, teleporting yourself to your exit point, and summoning a phantasm in the location that you stabbed that whirl finishers and causes aoe cripple. Each hit from the phantasm grants you swiftness?

Warlock: let’s try making it all about chaos armour instead of chaos storm. Blast finisher the area around you on cast, then summon a phantasm which grants one nearby ally (prioritising other players before you) chaos armour. The phantasm has chaos armour on itself permanently and shares any boons it gets with you.

As I said though, I’m not convinced that anything like this is a solution to the problem of mesmers, but it’s fun.

The topic is being derailed by the call for non damage phantasms.

I see that as utterly illogical. ANET could not give us direct damage without nerfing shatter into un-usability. Therefore non damage Phantasms would be a huge nerf. This is the last thing Mesmer needs atm.

To return to the topic, clone death was removed after an ANET staffer was killed by a clone death Mesmer. That was not a good move and should be reverted.

Using clone death permits a broader range of builds to work and it should be returned to play.

Ithilwen.1529:

The topic is being derailed by the call for non damage phantasms.

I see that as utterly illogical. ANET could not give us direct damage without nerfing shatter into un-usability. Therefore non damage Phantasms would be a huge nerf. This is the last thing Mesmer needs atm.

To return to the topic, clone death was removed after an ANET staffer was killed by a clone death Mesmer. That was not a good move and should be reverted.

Using clone death permits a broader range of builds to work and it should be returned to play.

Everyone’s derailing from the topic because the topic has been beaten to death and a majority of Mesmers don’t want it back. Just because Anet lost to a mesmer means nothing. No matter how much you try to justify clone death, Anet should and will never bring it back. Clone death traits (along with every other PASSIVE garbage that exists in the game) should be removed and stay removed. Phantasms losing damage and giving it to the Mesmer is not only a huge buff to our own DPS, but it enhances their support abilities through buffs, condi cleanse etc. You can say it all you want but just know that literally everyone else thinks its a bad idea.

Ithilwen.1529:

The topic is being derailed by the call for non damage phantasms.

I see that as utterly illogical. ANET could not give us direct damage without nerfing shatter into un-usability. Therefore non damage Phantasms would be a huge nerf. This is the last thing Mesmer needs atm.

To return to the topic, clone death was removed after an ANET staffer was killed by a clone death Mesmer. That was not a good move and should be reverted.

Using clone death permits a broader range of builds to work and it should be returned to play.

This isn’t true. ANet could buff our personal damage and remove it from phantasms without touching our shatters at all. Besides, even if MW did get a slight nerf, I wouldn’t mind it if it meant my sustained damage wasn’t crap.

Ithilwen.1529:

To return to the topic, clone death was removed after an ANET staffer was killed by a clone death Mesmer.

You keep saying this a lot. It’s still false though. It’s amusing because this false statement seems to be the very basis of your argument for reinstating clone death builds…And it’s nothing but a falsification.

Fay.2357:

Ithilwen.1529:

To return to the topic, clone death was removed after an ANET staffer was killed by a clone death Mesmer.

You keep saying this a lot. It’s still false though. It’s amusing because this false statement seems to be the very basis of your argument for reinstating clone death builds…And it’s nothing but a falsification.

Personal objectification is commonly the basis of your arguments, Ithilwen. When something happens that you don’t like it’s because “the man” was out to get you/it. This undermines your case heavily.

And despite the dismissal of it, the argument “passive procs are poor design and should be removed from all aspects of the game” is a strong and valid argument. So overcoming that is the biggest hurdle this endeavor currently faces.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Fay.2357:

Ithilwen.1529:

To return to the topic, clone death was removed after an ANET staffer was killed by a clone death Mesmer.

You keep saying this a lot. It’s still false though. It’s amusing because this false statement seems to be the very basis of your argument for reinstating clone death builds…And it’s nothing but a falsification.

Personal objectification is commonly the basis of your arguments, Ithilwen. When something happens that you don’t like it’s because “the man” was out to get you/it. This undermines your case heavily.

And despite the dismissal of it, the argument “passive procs are poor design and should be removed from all aspects of the game” is a strong and valid argument. So overcoming that is the biggest hurdle this endeavor currently faces.

I’m not sure I agree with “should be removed from all aspects of the game”, or even “are poor design”. Maybe if everyone loved the twitchy style of play and all had access to top end pcs and a golden internet connection of the gods, but outside that idealised theoryspace, I think passive procs have their place.

Edit
That’s not saying clone death traits should come back, just in a broader sense of the topic.

Rashagar.8349:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Fay.2357:

Ithilwen.1529:

To return to the topic, clone death was removed after an ANET staffer was killed by a clone death Mesmer.

You keep saying this a lot. It’s still false though. It’s amusing because this false statement seems to be the very basis of your argument for reinstating clone death builds…And it’s nothing but a falsification.

Personal objectification is commonly the basis of your arguments, Ithilwen. When something happens that you don’t like it’s because “the man” was out to get you/it. This undermines your case heavily.

And despite the dismissal of it, the argument “passive procs are poor design and should be removed from all aspects of the game” is a strong and valid argument. So overcoming that is the biggest hurdle this endeavor currently faces.

I’m not sure I agree with “should be removed from all aspects of the game”, or even “are poor design”. Maybe if everyone loved the twitchy style of play and all had access to top end pcs and a golden internet connection of the gods, but outside that idealised theoryspace, I think passive procs have their place.

Edit
That’s not saying clone death traits should come back, just in a broader sense of the topic.

Some passive procs are ok. But the amount that the game has is utterly ridiculous. Likewise, its ridiculous that at least some classes can trait certain skills to apply 3, 4+ extra condis/boons on top of what the skill does by itself. Almost everything needs to be toned down imo

Fay.2357:

Ithilwen.1529:

To return to the topic, clone death was removed after an ANET staffer was killed by a clone death Mesmer.

You keep saying this a lot. It’s still false though. It’s amusing because this false statement seems to be the very basis of your argument for reinstating clone death builds…And it’s nothing but a falsification.

An ANET staffer stated on the official stream that he had lost to a clone death Mesmer and went on to say that he had decided the build should be removed. Iw was strongly implied that the decision was based upon that match. This was on ANET official stream and the build was removed the very next patch.

This is fact.

In my opinion, that was not sound decision making and it should be rescinded.

Ithilwen.1529:

An ANET staffer stated on the official stream that he had lost to a clone death Mesmer and went on to say that he had decided the build should be removed. Iw was strongly implied that the decision was based upon that match. This was on ANET official stream and the build was removed the very next patch.

This is fact.

In my opinion, that was not sound decision making and it should be rescinded.

I don’t remember any staffer being that blantantly biased, but that’s where the “purple cheese” thing came from I believe.

Clownmug.8357:

Ithilwen.1529:

An ANET staffer stated on the official stream that he had lost to a clone death Mesmer and went on to say that he had decided the build should be removed. Iw was strongly implied that the decision was based upon that match. This was on ANET official stream and the build was removed the very next patch.

This is fact.

In my opinion, that was not sound decision making and it should be rescinded.

I don’t remember any staffer being that blantantly biased, but that’s where the “purple cheese” thing came from I believe.

I still have that icon!

But yes. I suppose one could imagine a dev suddenly facing a clone death build, and getting so beat up by it he has an emotional response, and after returning to his keyboard with a spent box of tissues and the wells of water dried away so as to no longer blur his vision, sit down and vow on his life to remove this travesty from all existence of he’ll slit his own throat. It’s quite a story, but certainly within the limits of the imagination.

On the other hand, I could also imagine a dev facing a certain build, sitting back and saying “Hmm, I don’t like how that plays out in the game. It’s poor design with numerous gameplay problems. I think we’ll make some changes for the better.” -Then do what Anet devs do best and makesomechangesthatbreak10otherthingsandovernerfabunchofthingsnobodyhadaproblemwith etc while doing the one thing they did actually intend to do (but I’ll digress).

Makes you wonder what scenario is the closer interpretation. I suppose the bias lays with the individual, in the end.

Probably the same developer that decided that quickness, slow, and chill no longer affect rez/stomps.

That’s ANets idea of ‘balancing’ and that’s why I play this game less and less.

SlimChance.6593:

Probably the same developer that decided that quickness, slow, and chill no longer affect rez/stomps.

That’s ANets idea of ‘balancing’ and that’s why I play this game less and less.

Holy

godkitten

kitten

This was one of the most important changes the game needed after the travesty that was S1 and beyond.