Guild Wars 2

Hey guys, tetro here.
I just want to hear your opinion about confusion and if you’re happy with it overall. Why?

Cause I’m not. Not at all.

The thing is, I like the basic idea of confusion, and it’s somehow THE major condition within our class, but it’s so underwhelming sometimes, it hurts. It just doesn’t work in sPvP and PvE. In WvW it’s fine (at least for me) so I’m gonna split my post up from here on:

WvW:
As I said, this is probably the only part of the game where Confusion builds can get you somewhere. Confusion damage is calculated with the standard PvE formula, but used on human targets. It actually hurts when you cast a skill while under confusion. The duration of confusion isn’t really long (3s for most of our skills), but because of the high damage, the target actually has to think if he/she uses a skill during that time.
For me, this is how it should work. As a mesmer, you have to put alot into condition damage and pick certain traits to make confusion a useful condition. Not only that, you really have to put a lot skills on cooldown in order to get this stacked high enough. The only problem I see here is – doesn’t matter how much effort you put into a confusion build or how much skills you put on cooldown, the enemy can neglect all of the confusion damage by simply casting one cleansing skill.

One.

But as I said, I’m kinda happy with how confusion works in WvW. The high damage output works most of the time, probably because other players underestimate the power of big, fat stack of confusion.

PvP:
I really tried to run with a “Confusion Lockdown” build for a while. It just doesn’t work (or I’m just too stupid). The damage output is so low (in combination of the short duration) that even high stacks of confusion don’t do much to the enemy. Not only that, you can still neglect all the damage by cleansing skills/traits.
Confusion isn’t a condition that you can spam, like bleeding. It doesn’t last very long and can’t be stacked in duration, like poison. As I said before, you have to put alot into it to get high stacks on the enemy, much more than most of the other conditions.

PvE:
Lulz. Seriously, no. The attack speed is so low for most of the NPCs, it isn’t even worth thinking about relying on confusion damage.

Possible solutions? I don’t know. Maybe the return of the glorious Hex Spells from GW1, maybe change the way it works (without making it overpowered).

Heck, I don’t even know if my PoV is somehow reasonable, or if I’m overreacting on this. It probably just bothers me how underwhelming confusion is at the moment. It could be so awesome, but for me, it isn’t.

This is my opinion, and I don’t say I’m right. I just want to hear you folks on this topic. There is probably a lot more to say, and I’m excited to hear other opinions on this. I’m just too tired right now to continue, so. Good Night.

… and sorry for any mistakes, English is not my first language.

I feel like the only way to make it better in PvE and sPvP without completely reworking it is to give it higher duration, but that would break it in WvW.

In pve its really bad but in spvp as a secondary damage it does the job. What i have problem with (spvp wise) is when you’re running a pure condi build on mez. The damage from confusion with 1500condi damage is waaaaaaaaay too low to even consider running this instead of a burst shatter and expect to kill anyone ‘fast enough’. Confusion should scale much more with condi damage in spvp so condi mesmers are actually worth running in hotjoin and tourney.

I’d personally increase the damage of Confusion in PvP/WvW to match that in PvE (Confusion is all about shutdown really. Decide between using a skill or taking massive damage). At the same time, double the duration of Confusion in PvE to ensure it will at least get one or two ‘strikes’ on an enemy. When we’re on the receiving end of Confusion in PvE, we can either use condition removal skills, or just kite AI enemies around until it wears off.

An idea I threw around a while ago was to give Confusion two end conditions: when its duration ends, or when it has triggered X number of times. Extend the duration so mobs can reliably trigger it around X number of times. Then it can be balanced for both PvP and PvE.

Hybrid Shatter Confusion build is great in sPvP. You have to play it a little bit differently than pure glass shatter and utilize your CoF at the correct times (for example after Ele’s switch out of water attunement), but it is devastating vs certain builds. Also just 3 staff clones and staff auto-attack (with Illusionary Elasticity) already does a lot DPS. Confusion is pretty unique in that it can act as both damage and defense, as anybody spamming attacks on you after a full CoF is going to die really really fast.

The problem a lot of people have with confusion is trying to completely design your entire build around confusion and go a pure condition build, which you can’t really do because staff is the only true condi weapon mesmers have (scepter is horrible in sPvP and is a stronger power-based weapon than a condi one). Confusion is very strong if you use it to supplement your build in a hybrid shatter build using carrion amulet.

I run my confusion, sceptre/torch build in everything.

In WvW it’s great. Any situation, any scenario, I can dominate. It takes a hell of a lot of skill though compared to a lot of other stuff you could do out there, but it pays off.

In PvE it’s all very situational. What’re you fighting, what’s most pragmatic, when do you stack high, am I fighting a boss, etc etc etc. PvE is perhaps THE place Phantasmal Mage shines. Dungeon or fractal bosses where you can put 3 up and just watch them go to town is da bomb. Confusion bomb that is. Against general mobs etc, vets and the like too, I can burst them down with confusion if I want. Still, your CD’s are gonna come into play when solo jumping from one to the next unfortunately. Some NPC’s just don’t attack fast enough. Staff bleeds are just more effective in that case.

sPvP, I think this is a place where a high level of understanding of both builds and player skill means everything. Whatever the details, I’ve found I do well in two scenarios with the guys I play with. One is to bunker down and hold a point. Utilising confusion along with other general confusion skills, I can defend a spot and down oncoming attackers. Bunkers or burst, putting player skill down to the wire I can do it. That aside, the other place I do well is as support. With a DPS or Bunker ally putting the pressure on an enemy/s, I can “flank” with confusion causing them to down themselves.

So yeah, confusion = awesome. Player skill and, more than anything knowledge, is everything. It’s not for the faint hearted. You have to give up a lot for it. Something something. ~Fin.

PvE Confusion: Has a few very very specific uses that are only effective if applied with pinpoint accuracy (subject alpha in CoE being the only one I can think of off the top of my head. Each one of his circles is a separate attack, and can result in 8-10 hits of confusion instantly).

(note: PvP analysis is assuming skilled opponents)
PvP Confusion: Not viable to base a build around unless you are talking the zergbuster glamour type build. This is because confusion only work when your enemy is using skills, and smart enemies will simply not use skills until it wears off.

That being said, confusion is fantastic if you apply it as an additional amount of pressure. Simply putting confusion onto someone doesn’t force them to do anything except stare at you until it goes away. However, if you combine that confusion with potent burns/bleeds in a condition damage build, or with an incoming full mind wrack combo in a shatter build, then confusion really shines. In these situations, your target now has to make the choice between eating confusion damage or taking evasive actions. Additionally, if they don’t choose the proper evasive actions, they’ll eat BOTH.

The point of confusion is not to put pressure on a target. The point of it is to take a target that is already pressured, and force them to shut down or take massive damage. Using it in this way is exceptionally effective, and is (in my opinion) what the devs really designed confusion to be used as.

In the zergbuster glamour build, you are dealing with a zerg, which you assume to have below-average intelligence and situational awareness, and so applying large stacks of confusion works quite effectively as people will kill themselves with it before they even notice what is doing the damage.

A good PvE use in PvE is stacking it on the shaman at the end of the sub-zero Fractal right before he ports away (he takes 2 ticks per wave of crystals hailing down, so he takes 10-16 ticks of damage in 3-4 seconds).

But yes, in general they need to work differently. My favourite implementation:

• Confusion becomes a duration-stacking / fixed-power-stack debuff. X damage per skill use, scaled with Condition Damage. But this does not increase per stack!
• Instead, it stacks “duration”. Sort of. Confusion gets a base duration of 4s, and every time the target uses a skill while under the duration, the counter resets to 4s. +Expertise ofc extends the duration as usual.
• Stacks are counted, and used up, one per ability the target uses.
• Confusion expires either when the duration runs out (the target waited it out) or when the stack-count reaches 0.

In short, I give a PvE enemy a 6-stack of Confusion. As long as this enemy attacks at least once every 4s, the stack will stay on (due to the resetting duration), and deal it’s normal damage, until 6 attacks are gone – one stack is drained per attack.

That’d work much better IMO, because it is nearly self-balancing. It also gives a lot of knobs to turn, in sPvP you can either shorten it by 1s (making shedding easier) or reduce damage, in PvE you can extend it by 1s to accommodate slow attacks.

Carighan.6758:

A good PvE use in PvE is stacking it on the shaman at the end of the sub-zero Fractal right before he ports away (he takes 2 ticks per wave of crystals hailing down, so he takes 10-16 ticks of damage in 3-4 seconds).

But yes, in general they need to work differently. My favourite implementation:

• Confusion becomes a duration-stacking / fixed-power-stack debuff. X damage per skill use, scaled with Condition Damage. But this does not increase per stack!
• Instead, it stacks “duration”. Sort of. Confusion gets a base duration of 4s, and every time the target uses a skill while under the duration, the counter resets to 4s. +Expertise ofc extends the duration as usual.
• Stacks are counted, and used up, one per ability the target uses.

In short, I give a PvE enemy a 6-stack of Confusion. As long as this enemy attacks at least once every 4s, the stack will stay on (due to the resetting duration), and deal it’s normal damage, until 6 attacks are gone – one stack is drained per attack.

That’d work much better IMO, because it is nearly self-balancing. It also gives a lot of knobs to turn, in sPvP you can either shorten it by 1s (making shedding easier) or reduce damage, in PvE you can extend it by 1s to accommodate slow attacks.

Did not know that about the shaman.

That is a really interesting idea about the confusion. You would have to do a ton of re-balancing of course. With the current incarnation of confusion application, it would be childs play to keep stacks on an enemy 100% of the time no matter how fast they attack, between 3 different shatters, confusing images, clone bursting, etc. Certainly a really intriguing idea though.

Hi

i can only talk about wvw and PvE since im not sPvP player
but i rly like cofusion concept in both …
as far as i understand confusion work xtremly well in cond. spec as anti burst for both WvW and PvE
point is not to keep few stacks confusion at all times but using ur cds at same moment when enemy is about to make action giving 10+ stacks
so far its great bursting tool for cond. dmg builds .. only thing is to learn timing

in shatter power builds is also great for WvW cuz ur shatter burst give lot of confusion stacks so whole burst take 80% enemy hp and lock him for another 3s when he cant heal or strike back

cheers Xixsa

Pyroatheist.9031:

You would have to do a ton of re-balancing of course. With the current incarnation of confusion application, it would be childs play to keep stacks on an enemy 100% of the time no matter how fast they attack, between 3 different shatters, confusing images, clone bursting, etc. Certainly a really intriguing idea though.

Yes, certainly.
The whole idea is that against slow attackers they can shed it by waiting out the duration, fast attackers would suffer a lot of damage but the limited # of stacks get used up. Ofc, that assumes I cannot freely re-add stacks all the time, which would be comparatively easy right now.

Some traits like “All shatters add confusion” would probably have to go or at least be thoroughly rethought.

In wvw confusion is the main reason I have a scepter… Tornado ele’s what? But in sPvP the damage is ridiculously low even when stacked through the roof… Which makes me a sad panda because its our only reliable condition. But I don’t see them giving confusion any sort of serious buff people gripe about it enough in the WvW forums.

In my opinion confusion in WvW is fine, if focusing mainly on confusion and glamour builds for mass WvW you can get half your confusion stacks to last for 10 Seconds. In the condition tank solo build I use it can be used well against burst classes to kill them or buy yourself some breathing space if they stop attacking.

In PvE I think it needs a total rework, I dont really understand why its damage was nerfed to 50% in sPvP but it still has some uses.

samski.5194:

In PvE I think it needs a total rework, I dont really understand why its damage was nerfed to 50% in sPvP but it still has some uses.

Sigh. Because it was never nerfed. sPvP Confusion is the original Confusion. It was buffed in PvE and WvW later down the track.

To me, the all-around fix for Confusion would be to have it stack – and absolutely remove the automatic deterioration/duration rate.

Instead of an auto-deterioration/duration, make it so that one stack of Confusion is removed every time an enemy attacks – regardless of how long it takes for any enemy to attack. The strength of the punishing attack will increase and decrease as usual depending upon the amount of Confusion stacks on a target.

No standardizing the punishment damage per Confusion stack.
No changing how frequently we can apply Confusion from how it is now.

The enemy players will have three options:

a) Attack, take the punishment, and heal; and/or,
b) Get the Confusion cleansed off them; and/or,
c) Not attack.

That simple change would go a long way to making a Confusion based build completely viable without being OP.

If you want the opinion of a Confusion based engineer (can stack up to 12 stack of confusion on one target), I think the conditions should be changed.

Right now in WvW, the conditions is really really strong in team fight. In the chaos, if you land your stack, you can kill somoene in 2-3 skills. If I receive confusion stack on me, I need 2 action to remove them, that can cost me 6k hp, even more if I use kit refinement.

But in sPvP, it’s the other extreme. Confusion got nerfed really bad, and we don’t see glamour mesmer anymore.

I think it whould be 25% less in WvW, and 25% more in sPvP. In PvE, we should get a bonus if we use it on a npc. Boss just don’t attack fast. They are mostly slow hitter. Only few suffer from confusion. Should have a bonus damage on npc.

Or change the mecanism, I don’t know.

But right now, with confusion, I ether feel really really strong (too strong), or too weak.

Savant.5276:

To me, the all-around fix for Confusion would be to have it stack – and absolutely remove the automatic deterioration/duration rate.

Instead of an auto-deterioration/duration, make it so that one stack of Confusion is removed every time an enemy attacks – regardless of how long it takes for any enemy to attack. The strength of the punishing attack will increase and decrease as usual depending upon the amount of Confusion stacks on a target.

No standardizing the punishment damage per Confusion stack.
No changing how frequently we can apply Confusion from how it is now.

The enemy players will have three options:

a) Attack, take the punishment, and heal; and/or,
b) Get the Confusion cleansed off them; and/or,
c) Not attack.

That simple change would go a long way to making a Confusion based build completely viable without being OP.

While that would even out the effectiveness of confusion across the different game modes, you do lose the unique aspect of confusion, which currently allows you to time large confusion stacks right before multi-hit attacks for instance. It would also take away a lot of the “burst” of confusion as well, which is really needed in sPvP (which is currently filled to the brim with high toughness/healing classes like Eles) as the only other bursty condition damage in the game is burning (or necro’s traited with terror).

If it was just made into a long duration, 1-time proc (like blind) as you suggest, it would more or less become a fire-and-forget type condition which we already have plenty of.

Skyro, I did not suggest a “1-time proc (like blind)” at all.

Instead, what I clearly suggested was 1 stack of Confusion dropping off the total number of stacks, per attack. Which means that if an enemy has 6 stacks of Confusion on them, and attacks once, the total number of stacks would go down to 5 stacks. Then when the enemy attacks again, it goes down to 4 stacks. etc… And the Confusion remains on an enemy indefinitely until either enemy attacks sequentially remove all stacks, or the stacks are cleansed.

So there would be no loss of the unique aspect of Confusion which currently allows one to time large stacks right before multi-hit attacks.

Pyroatheist.9031:

The point of confusion is not to put pressure on a target. The point of it is to take a target that is already pressured, and force them to shut down or take massive damage. Using it in this way is exceptionally effective, and is (in my opinion) what the devs really designed confusion to be used as.

I believe this to be mostly the case. I revisited the full rabid 0/20/20/0/30 build over the weekend for roaming and duels, and I had amazing success with it. For general roaming in a 2-5 person group (which I enjoy the most), giving someone a huge stack with the added pressure of dealing with other players/incoming damage often causes the opponent to spam some abilities and thus take massive dmg. Confusion thrives when the opponent’s attention is divided.

Even in duels against experienced opponents, with every shatter producing at least 4 stacks (assuming you are on top of them), they are going to eat some confusion damage. Against inexperienced players, going for the 4x Cry plus Mirror Images—>mind wrack right off the bat will instantly drop them. Against seasoned opponents, kiting around with 3 staff clones and 1600+ condition dmg will force them to increase their aggression (or die), and right about that time you feel they are getting frustrated (from you blinking around, stealthing, arcane thieving), you pop the big CoF.

I mostly use Sword/Focus as the off set, since Sword 2 is amazing for defense, and the focus is great for speed, pulling people (thieves out of shadow refuge), and using the leap/swap on top of curtain to get retaliation to add to your outgoing dmg.

Plus, you can carry around your power shatter gear and switch to it without having to change spec (see Shatter Cat Heavy).

The only thing I fear when running this is a condition necro.

As another note, if you are human, give the “Reaper of Grenth” Elite a try. I had never used it, and found it to be pretty awesome. Perma chill/poison for 15 sec to everyone within 240 units of you. Great for getting in close and mixing it up or ruining the day of downed people and those trying to rez them. With 2700 something toughness it’s no problem to get up close and personal.

Savant.5276:

Skyro, I did not suggest a “1-time proc (like blind)” at all.

Instead, what I clearly suggested was 1 stack of Confusion dropping off the total number of stacks, per attack. Which means that if an enemy has 6 stacks of Confusion on them, and attacks once, the total number of stacks would go down to 5 stacks. Then when the enemy attacks again, it goes down to 4 stacks. etc… And the Confusion remains on an enemy indefinitely until either enemy attacks sequentially remove all stacks, or the stacks are cleansed.

So there would be no loss of the unique aspect of Confusion which currently allows one to time large stacks right before multi-hit attacks.

Maybe I’m confused (haha, get it?), but what you describe here is essentially how blind works if blinds could stack (granted blind isn’t indefinite, but it is generally long enough that nobody really waits it out).

And apparently you didn’t understand what I said, because clearly how you describe it it would indeed take away much of the burstiness of confusion, which is one of the unique aspects of confusion how it is currently implemented. There would be much less incentive to wait it out or carefully manage skill use. It would be as I said much more of a “fire-and-forget” condition at that point, which for the sake of diverse game play is bad.

edit: Also I don’t understand people’s desire to make a build entirely revolved around confusion. You don’t make builds that revolve around ONE condition. Confusion should simply be a strong tool for Mesmer’s who spec condition damage, which it currently already is. While a full condition Mesmer isn’t all that viable, that has more to do with Mesmer’s lack of condition application outside of staff, which is why I am a proponent of changing scepter to be more condition focused (currently it serves as a much stronger power-based weapon).

Since blind does not work like that at all, comparing it to blind and tossing in “if blinds could stack” – when blind does not stack – seems to be doing nothing but building a straw man.

There will be much more incentive to think carefully about whether one will fight, cleanse, or not attack – because there would be no “waiting it out”. The enemy would have those three options to choose from. In the meantime, the Mesmer could put pressure on the enemy to act using other skills.

I accept that you don’t understand people’s desire to make a build entirely revolve around Confusion. Because of that, your explanation about what you think Confusion should simply be isn’t convincing to those of us who do desire to make a build around it. And I have no doubt it’s the same for you in reverse with regard to explanations made to strengthen the Confusion playstyle.

Ah, well.
To each their own.

Well I see more similarities (disappears after skill use, long duration) between your proposed confusion change with blind than differences (that it stacks in intensity rather than duration).

And I accept that you don’t understand how confusion is currently already very powerful in PvP. I prefer it’s current implementation than the one you propose. I feel your change WEAKENS confusion’s burst potential and its ability to alter fight dynamics. It punishes players who continue to spam skills.

Also not having any duration on confusion is kind of silly. I kind of thought you meant just a really long duration that waiting it out would essentially not be viable (e.g. like blind) but if you really meant confusion with no duration then that essentially means as the attacker you apply confusion on a “fire-and-forget” basis and as the target you simply just eat it or remove it without giving it a second thought.

I personally wouldn’t want to make one of the truly unique conditions in the game so bland like most other DPS conditions, but I do see how if you truly wanted to build around confusion alone then your change would produce more consistent damage which would be particularly helpful for PvE players, but it would certainly make its use in PvP less interesting.

If you remove the time frame, you would have to drastically decrease the damage (if it scales with condi damage), otherwise confusion would be really overpowered, I think. Especially in WvW (and sPvP, if you buff the damage there).
That’s basically the main problem here, finding a good solution for both NPC-enemies and player-enemies, cause they act so different and this is a condition that relies heavily on the basic behaviour of the enemy.

By the way – I DO believe that a build fully dedicated to confusion could be fun (just check out WvW), that’s why I want it to be more viable in PvP and PvE. Moar build diversity, huar!

Here’s another idea:
Remove the time-frame, keep the intensity stacking. It kinda makes sense – the more confused you are, the more you are hurting yourself. Stacks will decrease with each skill activation. So high stacks really hurt alot, but the damage will decrease with each casted skill. This way, if you put all the confusion you have on the enemy, you really get some reliable damage, even if the enemy is cleansing the condition.

Damage numbers should probably be toned down a bit, otherwise this would be with no doubt overpowered.

I think would be a good/interesting solution for both PvE and PvP, and it would get much more reliable compared to direct damage or spam-able conditions like bleeding and poison.

I really like where this thread is going, there are some interesting ideas so far. Just keep it going!

I am not going to add to the theory-talk (which is fine) but I do use confusion on PvE and it works well for me (especifically, because I don’t rely ONLY on confusion, though it still is an integral part of what I do.) It doesn’t necessarily “suck”, but one just has to be more judicious as when to apply it.

Some enemies activate skills more than you would think, but they are generally advanced ones (the new krait, some bosses-the megadestroyer is one that hurts himself a lot with confusion-a few fast enemies.) Still, if sufficiently stacked, a sudden 4,000-5,000 damage burst is nice, especially paired with burning and bleeds.

In short, I have no problem running my Confusion and condition Mesmer on the PvE world and Dungeons, and it’s actually a sheer joy to play. Though I would not rely solely on Confusion for damage (there’s so much damage the scepter can achieve, unfortunately), if timed well, a confusion spike can do lots of damage even to the slowest of Risen Abominations.

I use condition/Confusion in PvE as well, and it works well enough. Perhaps I don’t kill as fast as I would in a Shatter build (which is true of sPvP as well), but it certainly isn’t “horribly non-viable” as some people seem to claim.

Savant.5276:

Then when the enemy attacks again, it goes down to 4 stacks. etc… And the Confusion remains on an enemy indefinitely until either enemy attacks sequentially remove all stacks, or the stacks are cleansed.

So there would be no loss of the unique aspect of Confusion which currently allows one to time large stacks right before multi-hit attacks.

Functionally nearly identical to my idea, though I would argue there’d still need to be a – rather short – maximum duration. Hence I had the idea to make it ~4s, but refresh to 4s every time the stack-counted changes in either direction.

Because otherwise, someone who has their condition cleansing on CD becomes a total sitting duck for the remainder of that CD, and I don’t think a 15-45 seconds skill lockdown is quite a good thing. :P

You can’t focus on confusion as a primary damage source. Think of confusion as an added bonus damage effect. in other words don’t stack condition damage as a mesmer just plain terrible.

fakeblood.2576:

You can’t focus on confusion as a primary damage source. Think of confusion as an added bonus damage effect. in other words don’t stack condition damage as a mesmer just plain terrible.

You’re re-stating the issue. :P
Condition damage as a whole needs to be a better stat I suppose.

What I would do is make it genuinely weaker, but have it be on top of Power. Crit Damage = how much your direct attacks hit harder when they crit. Malice = How much your conditions hit harder, in general.

Carighan.6758:

fakeblood.2576:

You can’t focus on confusion as a primary damage source. Think of confusion as an added bonus damage effect. in other words don’t stack condition damage as a mesmer just plain terrible.

You’re re-stating the issue. :P
Condition damage as a whole needs to be a better stat I suppose.

What I would do is make it genuinely weaker, but have it be on top of Power. Crit Damage = how much your direct attacks hit harder when they crit. Malice = How much your conditions hit harder, in general.

Yea, the whole dilemma with hybrid builds across all classes is that half your stats are worthless for any given attack, and I don’t think that’s quite right. I’d like to either see precision and crit damage applied to conditions as well (in some way) or alternatively, just better itemization for hybrids, meaning items with a mix of cond/power/prec/critdmg and a higher stat budget.

I also think one interesting thing to try would be to make another defensive stat (maybe +Endurancepool?) at cost of one offensive stat.

If that becomes an option, I’d probably remove crit-damage (since it’s already a percentage-based value).

That’d mean direct attacks can have a variable %age of critical hits, with the damage of each critical hit being pre-determined. Conditions OTOH can have varying power, but never spike at all. Fits each type. We also get another defensive stat to balance a bit better.

tetrodoxin.2134:

I just want to hear your opinion about confusion and if you’re happy with it overall.

Overall, I am happy. There are possibly only two aspects of confusion-based builds I’d maybe tweak.

1. Fix Phantasmal Mage. Condition Damage AND Duration to scale with the player, preferably
2. Master of Misdirection trait. I would make a PvP-PvE split here. 33% longer confusion duration in PvP, 100% longer in PvE.

tetrodoxin.2134:

PvP:
I really tried to run with a “Confusion Lockdown” build for a while. It just doesn’t work (or I’m just too stupid). The damage output is so low (in combination of the short duration) that even high stacks of confusion don’t do much to the enemy. Not only that, you can still neglect all the damage by cleansing skills/traits.
Confusion isn’t a condition that you can spam, like bleeding. It doesn’t last very long and can’t be stacked in duration, like poison. As I said before, you have to put alot into it to get high stacks on the enemy, much more than most of the other conditions.

I tried direct damage RAWR-greatsword-pew-pew-pew mesmer builds in sPvP and I just don’t get them. I’m sucky at PvP generally, I don’t mind admitting, but that aside, I have found Confusion builds to be far more suited to the way I play. I don’t agree that the damage is low. I’ve seen players saying that Confusion builds are very viable in Tournaments; I have no experience there, but entering Random Arenas as I do, I see so many (suspected) “zerker” glass cannon players exploding themselves on my confusion.

I learnt something though, and I may be wrong, people may wanna shout at me since I’m basically self-taught… that is… don’t think “RAWRRRR 15 STACKS OF CONFUSION NAOOOOO”. Doesn’t work enough to be “good”. Sure, you can stack a lot of confusion, but as you say, it doesn’t last long. I try to maintain 3-5 stacks. It’s enough to keep the pressure nice and high, keeps some confusion in my back pocket for if my opponent uses condition removal, and still does good damage.

On a side-note, confusion does do less damage in sPvP, than PvE, I think? I still don’t consider that damage to be low though, with an amulet such as Carrion.

tetrodoxin.2134:

PvE:
Lulz. Seriously, no. The attack speed is so low for most of the NPCs, it isn’t even worth thinking about relying on confusion damage.

Again, I think this is something people like to say.

There is truth in it, and I’ve played with confusion builds in PvE, and it’s gone well. It just doesn’t work as well, on the whole, as GREATSWORD-PEW-PEW-SEE-ME-DESTROY-THINGS builds.

I reckon for confusion to work in PvE you do need to be high level, with access to … minimum 50 trait points and a Grandmaster trait book. I find that a confusion build in PvE centres around Glamour skills though, and therefore makes you inherently more supportive, with confusion being a “bonus”, for want of a better word. I’ve been into Orr and tested my build solo on L80 mobs and it kills fine. Doesn’t kill too slow and I can pull multiple mobs, but as has always been the case with Guild Wars, whilst there is another build out there that “is faster”, others will always fall by the wayside.

tetrodoxin.2134:

Heck, I don’t even know if my PoV is somehow reasonable, or if I’m overreacting on this. It probably just bothers me how underwhelming confusion is at the moment. It could be so awesome, but for me, it isn’t.

I think it’s under-rated in sPvP.

I think it works in PvE if you’re clever, but it’s not as efficient as pew-pewing with illusion-based / shatter-based DPS builds.

In WvW, however, there is nothing sweeter than piling Feedback, Null Field and Confusing Images on an enemy commander and watching him down himself in 2 seconds flat.

In wvw if anything it needs a nerf. Confusion mesmers are the reason why my Necro is sitting on a shelf, and my Mesmer should be hitting 80 on thursday. After a long time griping about em me and a ranger friend rolled identical looking asura mesmers. What we are able to pull off as a lvl 45 and a lvl 41 is just silly.

I admit to being very new and very nub to mesmer life, but everything I have seen from both the receiving and giving end of confusion in wvw has me convinced that it is extremely powerful.

Keep in mind friends… Engineers got a new buff… They can keep 10 stacks of confusion on a target for 5 seconds… Mesmers we are limited 3 seconds for the most part still unless we are traited to have it last 33% longer… In which case its just our confusion and not our illusions so I think the duration of mesmer confusion needs a buff… Honestly if you are dying to confusion bombs in WvW its usually from a zerg and right now well necros are doing scary things in WvW even against confusion mesmers… Unshelf that necro sir have at it!

Edit: And for the love of god can they please add confusion to some part of the chain in scepter one… 1 stack 5 seconds…

Necro epidemic + vulnerability +. Confusion + boon stripping = awesome

I am not saying Necro is bad by any means, but played Necro since beta and it was time for something different.

Embolism.8106:

An idea I threw around a while ago was to give Confusion two end conditions: when its duration ends, or when it has triggered X number of times. Extend the duration so mobs can reliably trigger it around X number of times. Then it can be balanced for both PvP and PvE.

^^ this is a really good idea imo. The most stacks I’ve ever gotten on anyone was 15 on a single person in wvw, running a scepter, confusion on shatters and then the whole blind/confuse thing in and out of our bubbles. That’s the highest number I was ever able to see, it did like 4k + damage per skill use, but seriously, that’s chump compared to a burst build and it only lasted a second at that level… and I was so stacked into confusion traits that I couldn’t really do anything else worthwhile.

I still use confusion as a strong second form of damage, an extra 1500 off per skill use maintaining 3-5 stacks is fun, especially with a sword in hand or GW dumping good crit burst dmg, but it’d be fun to get those stacks up to 25. Personally I think anet should nerf damage output some but make it possible to keep duration up substantially more. It’s easy to hit and even maintain 25 stacks of might, vulnerability, bleeding, etc in this game… confusion should get on that list as well.

@Sarie: The problem with making master of misdirection 100% in pve is that WvW = PvE. There is no split between the two, and this would make the glamour mesmer build unbelievably powerful, dropping 14 second hits of confusion right and left, not to mention a normal confusion bomb build would be able to hit at least 10+ stacks for upwards of 12 seconds. That change would catapult confusion from a little underpowered to wayyy overpowered.

Honestly, I don’t really mind the current incarnation of confusion. I don’t see it usable as a primary damage source, but to be used as an auxiliary tool for adding pressure or punishment into other combos, and it works really really well for that, especially with 0 condition damage, because the base damage of confusion is extremely high considering the stacking in intensity.

Sarie.1630:

I reckon for confusion to work in PvE you do need to be high level, with access to … minimum 50 trait points and a Grandmaster trait book. I find that a confusion build in PvE centres around Glamour skills though, and therefore makes you inherently more supportive, with confusion being a “bonus”, for want of a better word. I’ve been into Orr and tested my build solo on L80 mobs and it kills fine. Doesn’t kill too slow and I can pull multiple mobs, but as has always been the case with Guild Wars, whilst there is another build out there that “is faster”, others will always fall by the wayside.

Although I do agree with the statement “skill is more important than gear”, once you are level 80 with everything traited and the “right” gear your conditions, including Confusion, will hurt a LOT. Even without 12 stacks, it doles out the pain, regardless those brainless, slow mobs.

I will admit that the negatives are low power (especially annoying when you have to attack inaimate objects), but normal enemies, including bosses, get hurt hard and constantly-I would say it’s kind of ideal (though of course not required) that a party has a big condition dealer so that Direct Damage dealers get “some help” with a different sort of damage (over-time.)

SlimGenre.6417:

Embolism.8106:

An idea I threw around a while ago was to give Confusion two end conditions: when its duration ends, or when it has triggered X number of times. Extend the duration so mobs can reliably trigger it around X number of times. Then it can be balanced for both PvP and PvE.

^^ this is a really good idea imo. The most stacks I’ve ever gotten on anyone was 15 on a single person in wvw, running a scepter, confusion on shatters and then the whole blind/confuse thing in and out of our bubbles. That’s the highest number I was ever able to see, it did like 4k + damage per skill use, but seriously, that’s chump compared to a burst build and it only lasted a second at that level… and I was so stacked into confusion traits that I couldn’t really do anything else worthwhile.

I still use confusion as a strong second form of damage, an extra 1500 off per skill use maintaining 3-5 stacks is fun, especially with a sword in hand or GW dumping good crit burst dmg, but it’d be fun to get those stacks up to 25. Personally I think anet should nerf damage output some but make it possible to keep duration up substantially more. It’s easy to hit and even maintain 25 stacks of might, vulnerability, bleeding, etc in this game… confusion should get on that list as well.

Though I wouldn’t mind that change, I think their idea is that if duration is too long, it will be a bit too powerful in the sense of making (human) enemies be skill-denied for too long, in their efforts to avoid confusion damage. In short, I think they want to keep any enemy skill suppression caused by Confusion reasonably brief.

Star Ace.5207:

Though I wouldn’t mind that change, I think their idea is that if duration is too long, it will be a bit too powerful in the sense of making (human) enemies be skill-denied for too long, in their efforts to avoid confusion damage. In short, I think they want to keep any enemy skill suppression caused by Confusion reasonably brief.

If it encourages people to run with condition removal more, I don’t see a problem with that. Too many builds run with minimal condition removal and get away with it (including most of mine).

Star Ace.5207:

Though I wouldn’t mind that change, I think their idea is that if duration is too long, it will be a bit too powerful in the sense of making (human) enemies be skill-denied for too long, in their efforts to avoid confusion damage. In short, I think they want to keep any enemy skill suppression caused by Confusion reasonably brief.

Hence I like the idea of capping it by-activation (15 stacks = 15 activations max), and also a rather short duration (4 seconds base), but reset the duration each time an activation happens.

A player can quickly sit it out. Or not, their choice.

Well, here we are. WvW nerf incoming. A sad day, not only for me. Can’t believe this is really happening ~.~

I’ve gotten a confusion build to work well in PvP, but tbh it should be more like in WvW, if you have confusion you should think, “do I REALLY want to use that skill?” Kinda like Empathy/Backfire/Mistrust/Clumsiness worked in GW1.

I hate that answer, “You gotta understand your opponent.” Enough of the mind reading mechanic. One shouldn’t be required to play and understand every profession in a game. They should only have to know and understand their chosen profession. Confusion damage/lock down is dead after the nerf’s, that simple. If I am going to invest time understanding what other people might do, I may as well spend my time trying to bend spoons with the power of my mind. At any given stage a player may just decide to log out, I can’t predict that, let alone what skills, utilities and how fast they are going to deliver them.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

I hate that answer, “You gotta understand your opponent.” Enough of the mind reading mechanic. One shouldn’t be required to play and understand every profession in a game. They should only have to know and understand their chosen profession. Confusion damage/lock down is dead after the nerf’s, that simple. If I am going to invest time understanding what other people might do, I may as well spend my time trying to bend spoons with the power of my mind. At any given stage a player may just decide to log out, I can’t predict that, let alone what skills, utilities and how fast they are going to deliver them.

ohh bending spoons with our minds…could be great for mesmers ;-)
on a serious note:i do miss confusion.it has been over nerfed and it is a shame.I adjusted with a new build, but I miss confusion and in wvw i miss the time where u could hold buttonmashing people at a chokepoint.well, who knows maybe anet has a new plan for decent aoe,condition and crowdcontrol for us…

It’s not only been overnerfed, it’s still woefully underpowered in PvE in the first place.

The whole mechanic of confusion just doesn’t work well. It’s supposedly a damage-source (stacking in intensity), but it has an enemy controlled activation mechanic, which makes it more of a control/utility condition. The two are naturally at odds.
Between them it has been reduced in duration too much, and it’s power is now too low to be truly threatening to anyone who has a modicum of cleansing available.

It’s just… background noise now. Ok for what it does, but since it’s also useless in PvE it’s quite disappointing for our “class condition”. Ignoring ofc that Engineer still have the better confusion-application skills with Pistol #3 and Bomb #3.

^Think you mean engineers! But yes it is annoying that an engi specing for confusion duration can out perform a mesmer speccing for it between toolkit 3 pistol 3 and bomb kit 3 they can stack up 12 stacks that are guaranteed to last at least 5 seconds… mesmers have to take master of misdirection which only increases it to 4 seconds vs. 3 seconds. Which makes me wonder exactly what they want to do with mesmer confusion and the many traits we have that deal with it…

Ah yes, sorry. Engineers ofc.

No need to swap forums to necromancers guys, comeon now.

I like confusion, but there seems to be confusion about confusion.

Everyone seems to really love mesmer’s 1v1 capability to the point of it being the identity of the profession. Maybe that’s reality, maybe that’s perception.

Confusion functions akittens worst in a 1v1 confrontation and gets better outside of it. You’ll rarely ever kick donkey with it 1v1 unless you’re faced with a “fast” profession.

In a multiple player environment there is no waiting around for confusion to clear. Tbis is what makes confusion kind of cool, it shifts the function of the mesmer.

The other part of it is that confusion does not exist in a vacuum. Mesmers are not designed to only kill this way. There is no such thing as a “confusion mesmer”. There are people who do confusion witb power, or confusion with other conditions.

Confusion on blind is not a way of life, its merely supplemental damage for a defensive build. The primary source is shattering.

Torch isnt as awful as advertised but I agree it could use some streamling. It gives you five stacks of confusion (one image shot then shatter). And a defensive power witb stealth.

The sad thing about scepter is two-fold. First it functions better as a power/crit weapon. Secondly once you’ve exhausted your shatters your left with those kitten scep-clones. When you’re shattering for confusion damage you just hope that point in time falls on the staff.

You can perform very well with confusion, just not only confusion.