Guild Wars 2

Torment applied is two stacks per shatter vs one come November. Nice change.
Source: http://www.twitch.tv/m/644919

At the 25:00 mark.

Full list of upcoming changes announced in ready up:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2jjk8h/ready_up_pvp_balance_and_class_balance_otes/

I believe these will be live on 11/4.

kitten . This condition is getting out of hand, especially with the difficulty of cleansing it.

Overall I found the balance changes very anti climatic and pointless (aside from point black shot), but this one’s not too bad.

More attention to Maimed huh? I guess Disrupter’s Sustainment will forever be the red headed step child.

Also, I’m surprised there was no announcement that Mimic would be changed back because it’s even more unused in its current form.

NOTE: They emphasized that this is not a balance patch. It’s a little balance to a few specs here and there. Balance patches typically release alongside feature packs.

That said, this is a neat change. More condis are always good for condition builds. I agree with their reasoning that many condition builds were too passive. This might give a boost to the “active” condition mesmers.

This will make condition shatter a bit more viable. But they still need to reduce the cooldown of Cry of Frustration so it can be used more frequently.

Shatter condition mesmer with torment runes incoming, 6 stacks for 12 seconds is like 15k damage when moving :O plus another 5 from scepter block and 6 stacks of confusion from F2.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhQQNAW7fl0npMtNqxINcrNytBZyKMCUHkikySGggB-TVyCABAcBAAU3Az7Pcp6PJqEUiDCQWK/o4IAM9DAIAACwMnZysMDMzZOzZOzZWIgFrBA-w
The hate will be real

About time they boosted MtD, honestly. Most folk weren’t taking it, at 1 stack/shatter. Mainly because that really didn’t equal or beat IP. (Nice stuff for my Necro, too.)

Also, I would love it if we could swap c/d between Mind Wrack/Cry of Frustration, depending on power or condi shatter specs.
As for the bad side:

• Yes. I can smell the whinging already, once folk bring on the Runes of Tormenting/Scepter/MtD Condishatter builds.
• My Thief grows more ticked off. More venom buffs? What about my P/P?

zapv.8051:

Shatter condition mesmer with torment runes incoming, 6 stacks for 12 seconds is like 15k damage when moving :O plus another 5 from scepter block and 6 stacks of confusion from F2.

Exactly. And some classes don’t have access to removing these conditions without speccing for this removal explicitly/going out of their way. Conditions are passive on anything to do with clones on mesmer just because they’re auto-pilot self-destruction mechanisms that apply their effect to everything except ranged-users which have to waste time killing them before they get to them.

I’d much rather just see clones get their own attack rotations which apply the effects every so often rather than on death/shatter, seeing as the class already does so much damage that way and has ridiculous condition application in the form of the two most difficult to remove and most powerful damaging conditions.

DeceiverX.8361:

zapv.8051:

Shatter condition mesmer with torment runes incoming, 6 stacks for 12 seconds is like 15k damage when moving :O plus another 5 from scepter block and 6 stacks of confusion from F2.

Exactly. And some classes don’t have access to removing these conditions without speccing for this removal explicitly/going out of their way. Conditions are passive on anything to do with clones on mesmer just because they’re auto-pilot self-destruction mechanisms that apply their effect to everything except ranged-users which have to waste time killing them before they get to them.

I’d much rather just see clones get their own attack rotations which apply the effects every so often rather than on death/shatter, seeing as the class already does so much damage that way and has ridiculous condition application in the form of the two most difficult to remove and most powerful damaging conditions.

While I do agree with you, the spec won’t be any stronger than my perplexity necro with 10 second fear chains, my d/d ele with perma protection, 70% boon duration, and a heaping helping of might, or my hgh engi. There’s a reason everyone is op in wvw.

Food durations. I think it was Carighan who said WvW’d be better off if the +/- 40% foods were chopped to ~10%. I can see where he’s coming from, honestly.

Kitten its a shame that I sold my torment runes couple of months ago.

I think the solution to your problem is to add more torment cleanse to those classes DeceiverX. Many people who theorycraft a bit knows the burst nature of Miam works against stacking conditions. The shatter CD and sacrificing clone death/bleed crit only make miam builds getting overwhelmed by majority of builds that has “remove x conditions”. The exchange nature of shatter means you lack covering conditions while you desperately tries to protect those torment stacks, and this will continue to happen even after they introduce two stacks per clone. The only difference here for condi shatter against “remove x conditions classes” is at least now they can deal some form of damage. Having those condition-specific cleansing to remove torment will allow both condi shatter and classes that were countered by torment to thrive.

Btw I’m curious as to why the duration shown in build editor exceeds 100% cap, even when the total torment duration % is below it? xD

Advent.6193:

Food durations. I think it was Carighan who said WvW’d be better off if the +/- 40% foods were chopped to ~10%. I can see where he’s coming from, honestly.

You’d actually be better off with condition duration food not existing at all from a damage perspective. As it currently stands, a fight with + and – condition duration food actually nets less condition damage than using no food at all, since the negative is applied after the positive and is merely multiplicative, I.E., 1 * 1.4 * .6 = .924. This will cause condition users in many cases an entire tick less of damage, which would let condi users simply use better food options for becoming more durable or making ticks hit harder. It’s also part of the reason why ticks and removal can’t just be buffed due to stacking problems, since one little modifier does crazy things, and that modifier can’t be balanced around.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Kitten its a shame that I sold my torment runes couple of months ago.

I think the solution to your problem is to add more torment cleanse to those classes DeceiverX. Many people who theorycraft a bit knows the burst nature of Miam works against stacking conditions. The shatter CD and sacrificing clone death/bleed crit only make miam builds getting overwhelmed by majority of builds that has “remove x conditions”. The exchange nature of shatter means you lack covering conditions while you desperately tries to protect those torment stacks, and this will continue to happen even after they introduce two stacks per clone. The only difference here for condi shatter against “remove x conditions classes” is at least now they can deal some form of damage. Having those condition-specific cleansing to remove torment will allow both condi shatter and classes that were countered by torment to thrive.

Btw I’m curious as to why the duration shown in build editor exceeds 100% cap, even when the total torment duration % is below it? xD

When it gets suggested, people often freak out. The reasoning is that because you can’t also just give some of these classes/specs inherently more removal since SOME specs allow for a lot of it, but it requires explicit building against it. I believe that Thieves suffer from this the most, since their condition removal comes from one of only a few places:

HiS: DoT conditions except for torment.
Withdraw: All movement-impairing conditions (making torment’s effectiveness increase further since the class’s design is mobility and not stopping moving)
Shadowstep: This ability is fantastic. But it’s also needed possibly as a stunbreaker or engage/disengage tool. It’s so good that it also finds itself in almost every thief build.
Pain Response: An okay trait. It only removes the pre-torment DoT conditions, but it’s also a very easy trigger (75% hp), and is totally involuntary and will proc even if no conditions are currently on the thief.
Shadow’s Embrace: The only actually good condition removal method. But this requires a trait investment and is only viable on certain weapon setups.

So thief utilities aren’t diverse (as mentioned in RU23). Players use Shadowstep because it’s good and fills a lot of holes, though mostly for cleansing, Refuge for condition cleansing/general stealth, and infiltrator’s signet for a gap-close/stunbreak on a lower cooldown.

So when you make say, a SA thief, all of these can come together via a x/x/2+/4+/x build using the necessary utilities. Great. Actually, this mix is extremely strong and very difficult to beat. Except general-purpose condition cleansing for torment therefore requires a 6-point trait investment, dedicated utilities with fairly high cooldowns, and certain weapon combinations. When the access was low, it was not a problem, since okay, some conditions can get through. Now, though, (I just created a build to see), a single mesmer can permanently maintain 25 stacks of torment in WvW. I have scepter 2 with a shatter combo alone dealing 39k damage, meanwhile the build has 23k health and 2.6k armor, multiple condition removal effects on a low cooldown, stealth, burning, blindness, vulnerability, and confusion access. That’s absolutely stupid.

It makes more sense to me that some of the power from the above-mentioned “necessary” abilities just doesn’t get transferred say, to some of the heal skills which already remove the DoT/movement-impairing conditions, since they have lower cooldowns and already are used for condition removal/healing anyways.

I was kind of assume torment removal cleanse should be built into some skills rather than going from trait perspective.

If we’re looking at traits then I agree putting it into grandmaster is silly. It’ll simply pigeonhole that class into that traitline. But adept trait or to a lesser degree master trait? I think its fair game for some form of soft counter. Traiting those aren’t heavy and not many mesmers run torment heavy sec, since other “remove x conditions” classes are already countering condi shatters. Also from a balance perspective we don’t want torment to become completely useless against thieves.

That’s assume if we put it into fleet of foot? That’s a torment removal on dodge with 10s ICD, already hard counter torments from mind wracks. All thieves need to do is dodge the rest of the shatters skills, which are in >23s CD. Then the thief pretty much counter 6 mesmer traits by putting 4 trait points into acrobatics. Pain response is too long…..Shadow embrace can pretty much remove torment in 3-9s due to lack of covering conditions in condi shatter, so again, hard for Miam to count. None of the thief traits can actually produce a balance result that satisfied both parties, so built into healing skills are a lot more useful than traits.

Perhaps both HiS and withdraw for skill diversity sakes, but honestly combined that with shadow return and dodging/evading/stealthing is sufficient in mitigating shatter. Emphasis on shatter due to silly AI running towards enemy, shatter without target if opponent stealthed and evade-able AoE. The main problem with thief is that its hard-countered by torment, rather than specifically shatter or Miam.

I think its also important to mention that condi shatter has significantly less survival when compare to PU mesmers. Because it is pretty clear that the devs are trying to move the condition mesmer population out of PU, it’ll be pointless if MtD is still weak. Dodging/evading shatter is normally easier than eating clone death/bleed from multiple illusion sources. Particularly for thief with accessible evade/dodge/stealth/teleports.

It’s a weak buff that will have little impact on mesmer play, but people will still freak out about it as if it’s an instant win button for mesmer.

Just to add a little bit on personal experience. Way I see it, if medium/light classes actually eat 3 clone shatter from zerk shatter mesmer then they’re pretty much half dead anyway. IP and Miam is pretty much the main difference between power shatter and condi shatter, why should miam be alot weaker when it is already less versatile (no on demand diversion/distortion and extra mind wrack/cry of frustration)?

I know condi gears are harder to die. But like all other condition specs, miam needs significantly longer time to kill people. During this time opponents can use their cleanse/heal and wait for CD. Scepter/torch+staff miam has no immobilize and little stopping power as well so there’s a lot more chances where condi shatter set up is all for nothing. Heck if cleansed it is also all for nothing. In a way Miam have higher risk than condi PU while less reward than zerk shatter. Providing 2 stacks per clone at least gives a better medium.

While I can’t say if this change will make MtD viable or not but its definitely a step in the right direction. If u get hit by a shatter, you should feel a BIG impact regardless of power or condition build.

So scepter block plus a 3 clone shatter can instantly provide 11 stacks of torment…..well that’s slightly terrifying in 1v1s. If you add the staff and scepter clones giving burn/bleed and torment already, a 4 4 0 0 6 or 0 4 4 0 6 or 0 4 0 4 6 condi shatter Mesmer could actually be a real threat now.

Maybe create a punisher build: Damage to fight, damage to run. Unsure if condo duration of 4/4/0/0/6 will be better than the condi damage from traited scepter in a 0/4/0/4/6. I’m thinking the duration with torment will be more important in increasing the damage and pressure, so that may be the way to go.

Condition shatters are a lot harder to land then power shatters, at least in some of the builds I played. Usually a good torment burst consists of getting a Scepter block and mirror image + clone shatter on someone.

I like the buff though, but I think they should have added “reduced the cooldown of Cry of Frustration by x%” instead of doubling torment stacks.

DeceiverX.8361:

Advent.6193:

Food durations. I think it was Carighan who said WvW’d be better off if the +/- 40% foods were chopped to ~10%. I can see where he’s coming from, honestly.

You’d actually be better off with condition duration food not existing at all from a damage perspective. As it currently stands, a fight with + and – condition duration food actually nets less condition damage than using no food at all, since the negative is applied after the positive and is merely multiplicative, I.E., 1 * 1.4 * .6 = .924. This will cause condition users in many cases an entire tick less of damage, which would let condi users simply use better food options for becoming more durable or making ticks hit harder. It’s also part of the reason why ticks and removal can’t just be buffed due to stacking problems, since one little modifier does crazy things, and that modifier can’t be balanced around.

Nope. + Condition duration and – Condition duration are added on, not multiplied. The 40% duration increase and 40% duration decrease cancel each other out perfectly.

Hmmm… I’ve recently had some success playing a condi-spec with 0/6/5/3/0, with Scepter/Pistol and Staff. Fury for phantasms, pistol traited and condi-removal on heal. Worked like a charm for me so far.

In my opinion, MtD works/will work quite well if you can actually keep your opponent near your clones. That’s probably the case while fighting on point in PvP (assuming you risk getting yourself killed by teammates cause you brought a condi-Mesmer to PvP ;D) or in duels that happen in a rather small area (like the entrance-area of Obsidian Sanctum). There, your clones can shine and you can also shatter them for some nice condi-burst if your opponent runs through them. But in WvW, where your opponents can freely move around and kite you, that gets a lot harder. Your overall pressure will be much lower, and your defense as well, since you need to sacrifice quite a few other things to have the points to go 6 into Illusions.

This is my first post on the forums but Ive been playing GW2 now for about a year. I felt compelled to add my 2 cents worth to this post because I main a mesmer and i currently run maim the disillusioned.

I run full rabid gear. Spec- 4/4/0/0/6 with scepter torch sword pistol.

As it stands my current dot in a 1v1 scenario for anyone unfortunate enough to not dodge my initial burst is bad for them. Usually around 9 plus stacks of confusion, 25 stacka of vulnerability, 9 plus stacks of torment, and 6-8 stacks of bleeding. If i catch a thief off guard its usually enough to get them to 25 percent health or less if theyre glassy.

I cant give you exact figures because im on my way to work but i wanted to comment on its viability.

This build sings in 1v1 and plays more like a pd thief, burst then kite. In a group scenario it sucks. And its countered very harshly by classes with multiple condi cleanses and blocks like guardians. Its also vulnerable to conditions eventhough it has okay condition removal with torch and arcane thievery.

I think this buff will bring an extra level of obscenity to mymy current torment damage but most people dont understand its potential and it has a higher skill cap like shatter mes. So i think in spite of this buff most people will still run pu boredom fest condi on clone death builds because they dont understand why the devs attached condi damage to the shatter traitline.

As far as being op, i dont think it is. It has natural counters and ive been bested in1v1s many a times by good players.

Anyway give it a try in heart of the mists.

Full rabids, traveller runes, sword pistol scepter torch. Trait for longer confusion duration, elasticity and mtd in shatterline. In precision line, fury for clone bleeds and clone factory skill.

Main rotation goes like this. Pistol 4, 5, sword 3, 2, f3 shatter. Dodge forward, then double clone utility, then f2 shatter. Profit.

Then switch to torch scepter as they panic and condi clear. Torch 5, dodge, torch 4, scepter 3, get close to target for burn damage, then scepter block because at this point theyll try to hit you. Throw an f1 shatter in vthere somewhere to for laughs. Then kite and stealth and watch them die. If they arent dead then most of your cds will be off and you can start again.

Anyway, sorry for the lack of skill names and the spelling mistakes. Im typing this on my phone.

Edit-

I forgot to say that if the oposing player understands shatter mes playstyles or coincidentally gets some lucky dodges its very possible for them to avoid the bursts.

Which comes back to what another person said previously. Shatter condi is burst condi which is contradictory to traditional condi stacking. This means that a burst of condi does a high amount of damage in a short period of time, around 10-15 seconds depending on yhe source of torment and confusion and food. Which means if the player must keep bursting to sustain condi stacks but because of cooldowns cannot susain a fight as long as a traditional condi necro build, for example. This also means if your bursts miss you need to kite and stealth and wait for cool downs.

This is why i think this spec isnt op. Its essentially nerfed by blinds, blocks, and dodges.

^^ welcome to the mesmer forums xD.

Yeah I don’t think anyone would argue any MtD build is OP, or even will be after the buff.

I’ve been thinking about a build using sword for MtD though, as you seem to be playing. With GS/Staff standard shatter, there are ample means to get a burst off even though you’re not rooting the opponent. Once you take sword or another melee weapon however, you have to have a means to root to land the burst. Maybe taking sword is the key with a MtD build, maybe using earth sigils or something else to spread additional condition pressure on a weapon that doesn’t naturally dish it.

I don’t know how successful it will be, but nevertheless I’m glad to see a MtD build using sword is working for someone and I’ll probably try something like sw/t-sc/p out soon.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DeceiverX.8361:

Advent.6193:

Food durations. I think it was Carighan who said WvW’d be better off if the +/- 40% foods were chopped to ~10%. I can see where he’s coming from, honestly.

You’d actually be better off with condition duration food not existing at all from a damage perspective. As it currently stands, a fight with + and – condition duration food actually nets less condition damage than using no food at all, since the negative is applied after the positive and is merely multiplicative, I.E., 1 * 1.4 * .6 = .924. This will cause condition users in many cases an entire tick less of damage, which would let condi users simply use better food options for becoming more durable or making ticks hit harder. It’s also part of the reason why ticks and removal can’t just be buffed due to stacking problems, since one little modifier does crazy things, and that modifier can’t be balanced around.

Nope. + Condition duration and – Condition duration are added on, not multiplied. The 40% duration increase and 40% duration decrease cancel each other out perfectly.

Are you positive about this, or is base condi duration just getting you above the needed threshholds to keep that one stack ticking?

skcamow.3527:

^^ welcome to the mesmer forums xD.

Yeah I don’t think anyone would argue any MtD build is OP, or even will be after the buff.

I’ve been thinking about a build using sword for MtD though, as you seem to be playing. With GS/Staff standard shatter, there are ample means to get a burst off even though you’re not rooting the opponent. Once you take sword or another melee weapon however, you have to have a means to root to land the burst. Maybe taking sword is the key with a MtD build, maybe using earth sigils or something else to spread additional condition pressure on a weapon that doesn’t naturally dish it.

I don’t know how successful it will be, but nevertheless I’m glad to see a MtD build using sword is working for someone and I’ll probably try something like sw/t-sc/p out soon.

The reason I use sword is mainly for the root and the distortion. Its very good at avoiding damage when you need it and you have no clones. Plus swords look cool on caster classes, haha.

Also I find that sword/pistol scepter/torch synergizes and feels more natural than the other way around but thats probably due to personal preference.

I might actually post my build in the forums and look for feedback. Might be able to help some people and improve it at the same time.

Finally, in wvw with food buffs to condi duration every clone that shatters on my opponent applies 1 stack of torment dealing 1700 damage over 10s if the opponent is moving. This means that under the current spec in an ideal situation where i could land 3 consecutive shatters each with 3 clones the damage over 10secs should theoritically be 15k.

Then you add in the other torment stacks from scepter autoattacks and the 11k damage if moving if your opponent hits your scepter block, in an ideal situation its an instant knock out. Which has happened before where the opponent eats a tonne of torment, tries to run and the confusion plus torment kills them. Its very good for shutting down long bow rangers who spam their skills in a short period of time and try to run when you get close.

Actually,it might be nice to try it with hybrid build.Scepter/pistol + sword/torch celestial 4/4/0/0/6.Loads of bleeds,torment,confu and burn from torch,while still having some nice direct dmg from mind wrack/phantasm.Boon striping from sword clones and some CC from pistol/sword.

Like year ago,i was playing PU celestial,and the dps was really low to presure some1 fast enough to be funn,but this might work,i think,in world of theorycraft.

DeceiverX.8361:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DeceiverX.8361:

Advent.6193:

Food durations. I think it was Carighan who said WvW’d be better off if the +/- 40% foods were chopped to ~10%. I can see where he’s coming from, honestly.

You’d actually be better off with condition duration food not existing at all from a damage perspective. As it currently stands, a fight with + and – condition duration food actually nets less condition damage than using no food at all, since the negative is applied after the positive and is merely multiplicative, I.E., 1 * 1.4 * .6 = .924. This will cause condition users in many cases an entire tick less of damage, which would let condi users simply use better food options for becoming more durable or making ticks hit harder. It’s also part of the reason why ticks and removal can’t just be buffed due to stacking problems, since one little modifier does crazy things, and that modifier can’t be balanced around.

Nope. + Condition duration and – Condition duration are added on, not multiplied. The 40% duration increase and 40% duration decrease cancel each other out perfectly.

Are you positive about this, or is base condi duration just getting you above the needed threshholds to keep that one stack ticking?

Completely certain. All + and – condition duration modifiers add together, then multiply the base duration for the final result.

Neptune.2570:

Overall I found the balance changes very anti climatic and pointless (aside from point black shot), but this one’s not too bad.

Yeah, plus it doesn’t really make anything worse for the enemy. It just ups the damage, which is where Condi Shatter is really lacking right now.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DeceiverX.8361:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DeceiverX.8361:

Advent.6193:

Food durations. I think it was Carighan who said WvW’d be better off if the +/- 40% foods were chopped to ~10%. I can see where he’s coming from, honestly.

You’d actually be better off with condition duration food not existing at all from a damage perspective. As it currently stands, a fight with + and – condition duration food actually nets less condition damage than using no food at all, since the negative is applied after the positive and is merely multiplicative, I.E., 1 * 1.4 * .6 = .924. This will cause condition users in many cases an entire tick less of damage, which would let condi users simply use better food options for becoming more durable or making ticks hit harder. It’s also part of the reason why ticks and removal can’t just be buffed due to stacking problems, since one little modifier does crazy things, and that modifier can’t be balanced around.

Nope. + Condition duration and – Condition duration are added on, not multiplied. The 40% duration increase and 40% duration decrease cancel each other out perfectly.

Are you positive about this, or is base condi duration just getting you above the needed threshholds to keep that one stack ticking?

Completely certain. All + and – condition duration modifiers add together, then multiply the base duration for the final result.

Either way, the foods cut down condi user damage throughputs in most scenarios kitten many find themselves locked into -condi food since +condi food is so OP, preventing per-tick damage from scaling and/or condition base buffs.

Don’t forget to try out the new maim the disillusioned buff that hit today …

I’ve looked at it and played around with it a bit, and it’s still not great. The good? Well more Torment = more damage, and you can get some good cry of frustration spikes on people with sceptre 2. The problem I find is that it’s tied to the shatter skills, and going into those trait lines limits your capabilities as a condition user. If we look at a 04406 build the damage it outputs by itself is a bit similar to a wet noodle, but it does have a very capable burst.

I’m interested to see what people make out of it tbh, but I don’t think it’s game changing for that build.

Was playing 0/6/0/2/6 full rabid and Maim is more or less viable in WvW, where you can equip tormenting runes and duration food. It certainly has more offense than condition PU, considering many people know how to handle condi PU nowadays.

Maim is actually a very flexible and fun build to play. Don’t restrict yourself to one-time burst like using mind wrack in power shatter, because all three shatters have the same torment damage potential.

The trick is not to dish out multiple shatters before you know your opponent burnt their cleanse. Before that you can wear them out with scepter block and mind wrack (which with duration buffs now has longer torment time than its CD). Constant 7-8 torment (block/shatter + scepter auto) won’t burst your opponent down immediately, but it won’t take long to chew down most of their life. Also opponents will be likely to use cleanse if they have more than 5 stacks of torment. Good call tbh, but that also means Maim has more control on opponent’s cleansing.

The actual burst condition is still confusion, which hurts a lot more when you’re using condition gear. Also it is more applicable if you shatter more often. I usually set up confusion/torment stacks when using scepter/torch then swap to staff to cover it with chaos storm and clone auto (with elasticity). If they manage to clean it then I’ll just shatter those staff clones and pop more with mirror images, trying to keep a good supply of covering conditions.

Haven’t face much different classes while roaming. But to my surprise I can kill couple of condi P/D thieves relatively easy. Probably because mender’s purity + mantra CD reduction + 3 mantra of healing pretty much prevent them from doing significant damage to me. Still have trouble against duo roaming pairs with someone who has mass cleanse (say, healway guard), but that’s the whole point of healway guard I suppose. I’m also quite squishy against full zerk opponents, so I’m considering going more towards dire than full rabid.

I’ve been playing that same 0/6/0/2/6 build and agree it was already “almost” viable before, but Maim simply was not really competitive to IP even for a Condie Shatter build. This boost goes a long way to alleviate this, and I’m confident we’ll see Maim used a lot more.

Gonna give 2/4/2/0/6 a run. Them clonedeaths!

Yep 0/6/0/2/6 is probably my favourite due to Mantra of Recovery + Harmonious Mantras + Mender’s Purity providing all the condi cleanse you need freeing up a utility slot.

Joined Chaos with 2/4/2/0/6, for me due to being utterly reliant on Descent into Madness. Loving it. And yes, I am aware Power Shatter is better, but this is a nice change of pace.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Gonna give 2/4/2/0/6 a run. Them clonedeaths!

Carighan.6758:

Joined Chaos with 2/4/2/0/6, for me due to being utterly reliant on Descent into Madness. Loving it. And yes, I am aware Power Shatter is better, but this is a nice change of pace.

I still don’t understand the dichotomy of playing clone death along with shatter. In a build where you want to be shattering as much as possible, it seems like you’re gimping yourself by spending into those on death traits (meaning, they could be better spent elsewhere).

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Gonna give 2/4/2/0/6 a run. Them clonedeaths!

Isnt shatter and clone death counter productive?

Depend on the foes really, it’s harder to deliver maximum potential on shatter when you face AoE/cleaving heavy opponents, like the popular D/D ele and hammer/GS warrior builds. I see clone deaths as a sort of compromise to handle more situations. I was weighing it before but eventually give in to 0/6/0/2/6 due to confusion clone death minor trait as well. Less covering conditions but almost equal damage.

What taking clone deaths in a condie shatter build says to me is this:

“I accept that this build doesn’t actually perform effectively in the way I want it to perform. Therefor, I’m going to take some traits that actually work well to fill in the gaping holes that the basic functionality leaves.”

It’s a tacit admission of how non-functional pure condie shatter is. Yes, it’s better than before…but it’s still not good.

I have been running the ole 04406 full rabid and it has been hella fun in wvw today, still not as good as traditional shatter..but its a nice change of pace

Benjamin.8237:

I’ve looked at it and played around with it a bit, and it’s still not great. The good? Well more Torment = more damage, and you can get some good cry of frustration spikes on people with sceptre 2. The problem I find is that it’s tied to the shatter skills, and going into those trait lines limits your capabilities as a condition user. If we look at a 04406 build the damage it outputs by itself is a bit similar to a wet noodle, but it does have a very capable burst.

I’m interested to see what people make out of it tbh, but I don’t think it’s game changing for that build.

I think if we look at the composition of the mesmer trait tree I would argue that it was the creator’s original intention to have condition builds use the Illusions trait line. Investing 6 points into Illusions grants 300 condition damage and decreases the recharge and utility of shatter skills. Minor traits grant confusion on shatter, reduced recharge on illusion summoning skills and might on shatter. While various major traits in the illusions tree interact with conditions and shatters in various ways.

Now, if you look at the composition of the Chaos traitline, it:s focuses are boons, boon duration and toughness. While the extra 100-200 toughness helps your overall beefines i think the boon duration is a little wasted. Unless you take bountiful interruption in that tree, the only real boons you’ll have while a shatter mesmer are vigor (from dueling) and might/retaliation (illusions traitline). Furthermore, debilitating dissipation is not effective in a shatter build because you rely on your enemies killing your clones, but in reality, you’ll be shattering them before your enemies can kill them.

Finally, your main damage in a condition shatter build comes from torment and confusion. These conditions rely heavily on condition damage and duration to properly outlay their full damage potential. Bleeds and what not are secondary because we don’t have access to as much bleeds as say a necro or ranger. So, the most effective use of your trait points would be into traitlines that improve your condition damage and condition duration

Which means Illusions and Domination.

This is my theory behind MtD builds.

I’ve played a condition shatter mesmer for a couple of months now, ever since the previous updates to MtD. You can see my build here; https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Nero-The-Emperor-of-Torment/first#post4501056

What I’ve found is that condition shatter mesmers work best in wvw for solo roaming and small group roaming. It also has incredible success as a dueling build in spvp (albeit with nerfs to condition duration and damage)

With condition shatter, like many people have said, its best to bait out the condition cleanses first. Although on the odd occasion when I can sneak up on a thief or ele in wvw and throw most of my shatters out in a burst they drop like flies. Like you would be surprised.

I think it will be exciting to see what build people come up with now mtd is recieving so much attention. You might be able to come up with some interesting hybrid biilds, especially with the new sinister armor stat combations.

The change is working out very nicely if you ask me, at least in sPvP it finally makes Condie Shatter a viable alternative to Power Shatter, with an acceptable trade-off between skill vs. effectiveness. It requires slightly less skill, low-latency, timing, etc. to play Condie Shatter, as the extra Toughness buys you a slight bit more reaction time and/or play-room for errors, making the build more new/casual player friendly IMO, while still being rewarding to play.

There is no doubt that in highly organized group warfare the instant direct damage of Power Shatter is harder to counter, and this probably will ensure that the balance of power between these builds won’t change much there, but in less organized and/or duel & smaller-scale battles the 0/6/0/2/6 Condie Shatter performs very well now.

This change puts Condie Shatter on the map, finally providing us with a significant AoE condition burst that rivals that of other condition heavy classes. I’ve been fighting Condie Engies and Necros, whom before this change I usually couldn’t hope to defeat with Condie Shatter, and since the change they’ve been having a really hard time with me. Although we don’t have nearly the cover-conditions that both of these classes have, we can now apply a consistent stream of Torment stacks that wears down all but the most heavy condie-clearing professions.

Hint: Ditch the urge to take Illusionary Elasticity, and use Illusionary Invig instead! The F2 Shatter is our monster burst shatter, and getting it 2x in a short period has been more meaningful then IE for me. Also you need MI as a utility for Condie Shatter IMO, and since you have condition clears covered with 0/6/0/2/6 it’s not really hard to work it in. You need MI to get a double 3 Clone F1 + F2 shatter burst off really fast, putting 12 stacks of Torment and 9 stacks of Confusion on people almost instantly.

I generally use The Prestige to invis, get the iMage out while invis, throw down a Chaos Storm, PR in that to get CA and dodge once, F1 shatter, then MI + Dodge and F2 shatter, and then swap weapons again for the SoGeomancy proc . This provides a decent amount of cover conditions and a very heavy AE condie burst. (Burn, bleeds, and lots of Confusion & Torment.)

Windwalker.7421:

The change is working out very nicely if you ask me, at least in sPvP it finally makes Condie Shatter a viable alternative to Power Shatter, with an acceptable trade-off between skill vs. effectiveness. It requires slightly less skill, low-latency, timing, etc. to play Condie Shatter, as the extra Toughness buys you a slight bit more reaction time and/or play-room for errors, making the build more new/casual player friendly IMO, while still being rewarding to play.

There is no doubt that in highly organized group warfare the instant direct damage of Power Shatter is harder to counter, and this probably will ensure that the balance of power between these builds won’t change much there, but in less organized and/or duel & smaller-scale battles the 0/6/0/2/6 Condie Shatter performs very well now.

This…isn’t accurate. Half of the whole reason shatter builds are great is because of the aoe boonstrip they provide. The only condition shatter build that could even remotely be considered viable in a normal team composition is 4/4/0/0/6.

I think it’s an interesting balance now. In sPvP, you provide a shatter damage type which has two key upsides:

• Less reliant on Mind Wrack (specifically), so you are slightly less prone to one bad moment.
• Enemies don’t expect it much (yet). Specifically, it seems a lot of enemies are confused when you don’t try to get close for IP maximising.

The downsides on the other hand are the usual ones. You rely on conditions. As soon as there’s a sizeable number of players around, stuff gets cleansed pretty much the moment it is applied.

I don’t see how what you’re saying stands in contradiction to what I said at all, Pyro. You’re talking team composition, iow organized team play, and I clearly stated that I believe Power Shatter will continue to dominate there for obvious reasons. Yes, one of those reasons is boon stripping, which I didn’t mention, but I was comparing the damage aspects of the two builds.

In organized play it’s going to be easier to counter Condie Shatter then Power Shatter, that was my point. That doesn’t mean the change to MtD or Condie Shatter as a whole isn’t viable overall. Giving it any more would clearly make it OPd, but the nature of what makes it inferior to Power Shatter no longer has anything to do with the fact that MtD sucks, or is overall inferior to IP. It’s a solid GM trait now that makes the concept of Condie Shatter actually work, which doesn’t guaranty that it outperforms all other builds in all other aspects of the game. :P

Those were the two main reasons IMO for Condie Shatter being weak, and MtD being fairly pointless, as even IP in a Condie Shatter build was more useful. This change makes Condie Shatter quite powerful from an offensive perspective, and makes MtD a very viable alternative to IP for a Condie Shatter build.

I don’t disagree with anything you say…but no, I don’t think the build you mentioned is any more viable in organized team play. It provides boon strip, sure, but still fails to outshine a good Power Shatter Mesmer from a damage-output point of view.

And there is another key point, a highly skilled P-Shatter Mesmer really doesn’t gain any survivability from a Condie Shatter build anyway! This is why I said it’s likely going to remain a fun build in unorganized play and mostly for new/casual players who can’t make P-Shatter work for them for whatever reason.

Yes, I think for hotjoin condi shatter could become pretty strong. Can stay safely at range, variable, something new, people don’t expect it.

It can also do well in open world PvE solo stuff, if you’re just doing that.

Maaaaybe WvW roaming, too. Depends. As I hunt roamers with a group, I tend to not roam because I expect our enemies to do the same.

In organized tPvP and WvW or zerg play, power shatter will ofc continue to be far better, though I guess in zerg play the “far” is going to be pretty tiny due to nothing arriving anyhow.