Guild Wars 2

The Mantra is unique to the Mesmer, it’s a limiting, but powerful mechanic. I do think that they need to be buffed, but perhaps not in a utility or dps sense. I think the damage of Mantra of Pain needs a buff for the work you have to do for it, but that has been said often enough.

It’s no secret, Guild Wars 2 has excessive particle effects and these make the game beautiful and dazzling. However, one thing that I have noticed (or rather not noticed) is that all the Mantra abilities are barely noticable. It is at the point that I actually do not know if I cast the spell in the heat of battle. It is hard to tell if the spell worked or not when it is covered up by everything.

It feels like the mantra spells are covered up by everything, and in my opinion they deserve more! I know it’s a small point, but I feel there could be more done to make Mantras interesting.

Let me know if you agree!

Well, for the spell animation thing, charged mantras are instant-cast meaning you can cast them in the middle of another casting and it will launch while not cancelling the casting one. Therefore, that animation is probably irrelevant to show because, as an opponent, you can’t counter it ot see it coming. The animation they can react to is the charging one with the symbole and the three words of power-thing.

That being said, one thing I would love to see is another damage-dealing mantra with a one second cooldown, maybe inflicting random 1-2 conditions every cast. That way, with 3 stacked mantra, I could cast 3 mantra charges while charging one, and cast 3 mantra charges of the other while charging the first.

That way, mantra’s downtime in battle wouldn’t be that much of an issue.

Hummm.

My dude chants when he charges the Mantras. I think that balances any aesthetics.

I don’t mind the effects being subtle in combat. Generally speaking I prefer not to alarm my targets with big flashy graphical effects

Pyroatheist.9031:

Mantras don’t need that. If they had it, they would be even worse than they already are

How are Mantras bad?

=O

EasymodeX.4062:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Mantras don’t need that. If they had it, they would be even worse than they already are

How are Mantras bad?

=O

Because they have exceedingly long charge times and too few base uses. The traits that affect mantras are all over the place and in the wrong trees for their effects many times. The trait that allows the number of mantra uses to become anywhere near significant is 30 points into a tree with an absolutely and completely useless 25 minor trait bonus. The only viable uses for mantras are extremely specific and niche builds that don’t actually utilize the mantras for their normal purpose, such as the mantra heal build for the aoe heals, or using the heal mantra to proc healing rune skills rapidly, or using the 4% extra damage per mantra to make a pure long range glass cannon nuker that never actually uses the mantras.

In general, if you show me any build that has mantras that are supposed to actually be used for their normal intended purpose, I can make you a build that will do it better without mantras.

Rofl.

You funny bro. Mantras are ok.

Edit:

Whoops, if I didn’t add something like “Mantras are ok” then I would probably pick up an infraction.

I very much agree that Mantra of Pain needs a buff. Mantra builds are arguably the hardest mesmer build I have ever played (any build on any profession I have personally ever tried for that matter). I feel the damage done versus the difficulty of the build are askew.

Mantra of pain needs to do more damage, not a huge amount but more. It feels more in line with a skill used by someone wearing blues or greens in effectiveness rather than someone in exotic/ascended gear. It doesn’t have enough oompf to combat enemies with vitality/toughness gear.

Seeing how mantra builds leave you pretty exposed in general we need more damage to balance this out.

As for spell effects, I think it’s fine. You can see on your opponents nameplate as to whether it worked or not.

EasymodeX.4062:

Rofl.

You funny bro.

I’m serious, and I would love to be proven wrong, but I have yet to figure out a way to use mantras for their normal effects that can’t be done better by another build. I have certainly tried to use them. I ran with the condition removal mantra for a while on my tank build, but removed it because it simply wasn’t good enough, and condition removals can be accomplished with the warden whirl finisher, healing, and food. MoP is obviously crap except for proccing the mantra heals. The daze mantra could have use in a shutdown build…except that would be better accomplished through mirror images for diversion shattering. The stability mantra is horrific and unnecessary. The stability can be substituted out for any of the various i-frames that mesmers have access to, and the stunbreak is pointless when mesmers have so many AMAZING skills with stunbreaks.

Don’t mantras already have an effect for charging. Mine gets this weird collection of symbols and then my character says something emo and dumb and then all the magic symbols fly into my body, and I wouldn’t mind all of this if the kitten thing was worth the cast but in reality it’s pretty lack luster. The defensive spells can be pretty useful particularly the one that grants stability but mantra of pain (the one I am more interested in) isn’t worth the slot of the skill bar. Such a shame.

Fay.2735:

I very much agree that Mantra of Pain needs a buff. Mantra builds are arguably the hardest mesmer build I have ever played (any build on any profession I have personally ever tried for that matter). I feel the damage done versus the difficulty of the build are askew.

Mantra of pain needs to do more damage, not a huge amount but more. It feels more in line with a skill used by someone wearing blues or greens in effectiveness rather than someone in exotic/ascended gear. It doesn’t have enough oompf to combat enemies with vitality/toughness gear.

Seeing how mantra builds leave you pretty exposed in general we need more damage to balance this out.

As for spell effects, I think it’s fine. You can see on your opponents nameplate as to whether it worked or not.

In my opinion, the problem with mantra of pain isn’t the damage it does. The problem is that it only does damage. You are sacrificing a utility slot for a utility that (untraited) simply does a bit more damage. In order for mantra of pain to be worth anything, it needs another effect, or preferably just a completely different effect. If it applied some conditions, that would be better, or (I just thought of this, would be really cool) applied a damage amplification effect (separate from vulnerability) on the target.

Point being, MoP isn’t a utility. It is a damage skill, and therefore has no real place on a utility bar.

Edit: No offense to your mantra build fay, but it simply isn’t as effective as other builds I could and have made to do the same thing, at least in PvP, as in PvE you can trait mantras and cause them to have some more useful effects. I appreciate you doing your best to make it work, but the bottom line is that it just isn’t as good as everything else.

Pyroatheist.9031:

In my opinion, the problem with mantra of pain isn’t the damage it does. The problem is that it only does damage. You are sacrificing a utility slot for a utility that (untraited) simply does a bit more damage. In order for mantra of pain to be worth anything, it needs another effect, or preferably just a completely different effect. If it applied some conditions, that would be better, or (I just thought of this, would be really cool) applied a damage amplification effect (separate from vulnerability) on the target.

Point being, MoP isn’t a utility. It is a damage skill, and therefore has no real place on a utility bar.

Edit: No offense to your mantra build fay, but it simply isn’t as effective as other builds I could and have made to do the same thing. I appreciate you doing your best to make it work, but the bottom line is that it just isn’t as good as everything else.

Personally I think mantra of pain is fine the way it is apart from the amount of damage it does. It’s one of the more useful mantras in restorative mantra builds because of the lack of cooldown which is awesome.

Fay.2735:

Pyroatheist.9031:

In my opinion, the problem with mantra of pain isn’t the damage it does. The problem is that it only does damage. You are sacrificing a utility slot for a utility that (untraited) simply does a bit more damage. In order for mantra of pain to be worth anything, it needs another effect, or preferably just a completely different effect. If it applied some conditions, that would be better, or (I just thought of this, would be really cool) applied a damage amplification effect (separate from vulnerability) on the target.

Point being, MoP isn’t a utility. It is a damage skill, and therefore has no real place on a utility bar.

Edit: No offense to your mantra build fay, but it simply isn’t as effective as other builds I could and have made to do the same thing. I appreciate you doing your best to make it work, but the bottom line is that it just isn’t as good as everything else.

Personally I think mantra of pain is fine the way it is apart from the amount of damage it does. It’s one of the more useful mantras in restorative mantra builds because of the lack of cooldown which is awesome.

But that is exactly it right there. It is great for restorative mantras because of the low cooldown it has. However, by using restorative mantras, you are now tacking on utility to the skill. Without restorative mantras, it has no utility, and has no place on a utility bar. Every utility should have utility by itself, you shouldn’t need to trait for that particular skill in order to actually give it ANY utility.

Pyroatheist.9031:

But that is exactly it right there. It is great for restorative mantras because of the low cooldown it has. However, by using restorative mantras, you are now tacking on utility to the skill. Without restorative mantras, it has no utility, and has no place on a utility bar. Every utility should have utility by itself, you shouldn’t need to trait for that particular skill in order to actually give it ANY utility.

The only way it would be better is if the heal is added to the damage mantra by default so you heal without having to trait it and in stead have a trait to in crease the damage done by mantra of pain (Kind of like there is one for Mind Wrack). One that is in Mastery rather than Grand mastery.

I gotta agree with Pyro here, I tried out a mantra build and while it did big numbers phantasm and direct damage wise it had no survivability outside a zerg setting where I could try not to be directly targeted. The trouble with it was I gave up my awesome utility slots for a couple mantras that despite the restorative mantras trait did little to help me stay alive.

I’m serious, and I would love to be proven wrong, but I have yet to figure out a way to use mantras for their normal effects that can’t be done better by another build.

The individual Mantras are relatively effective by themselves (although the stability one underperforms because Blink and Decoy are so good in comparison).

Mantra of Restoration has relatively good heal throughput, activates with no cast time, and has the miscellaneous benefit of multiple “on heal” procs. Naturally, this comes at the cost of the recharging it.

Mantra of Resolve is basically on par or superior to most other condition removal methods. Null Field has twice the cooldown, for a somewhat different effect (strips boons too) and ethereal field. On one hand, it does more, but on the other, its cooldown is simply significant. When you’re getting plinked with conditions you have to remove with some frequency, MoR will remove 4 while Null Field will remove 1. And it will do so instantly (for example, while casting your heal, or in mid-dodge, or while casting MI or TW or something else).

The other removals you cited are poor comparisons because they offer condition removal via other means — they do not directly conflict with MoR. This is a question of “how much condition removal do you need in your build?” and “do you need the security of a condition removal on-demand?”.

Mantra of Pain is rather good for bursting targets. However, it is critical that the player practice / learn to use it while using other abilities. It took me about 10 hours of using MoPain before I used it during other attacks by habit. As a separate “sustained DPS” type of ability, of course it fails due to the Mantra recharge. My highest crit was on an upleveled scrub in WvW for 4900 damage. Regardless of their up-leveled-ness, this damage is higher than 1 full Spatial Surge at max range, and can be executed at the same time. This means that, while spamming it, it effectively doubles your damage output until you run out of charges. Combined with the delayed Phantasm attack and other delayed damage (Mirror Blade travel time, for example), as well as a possible Mind Wrack, you can get extreme bursts without using restrictive combos like Mirror Images.

Mantra of Distraction is good for what it does — two shots of instant daze. Most would use SigDom, but the crux is the tradeoff between instant execution versus “instant” recharge. And it cools down faster than SigDom.

Mantra of Concentration, as I stated above, is generally out-classed by Blink/Decoy, unfortunately. It’s really the only “underperpar” Mantra, although it is still effective enough if you intend to run 4 Mantras anyways.

Generally speaking, Mantras have better cooldowns compared to other similar abilities, at the cost of the recharge time. The most counter-intuitive part about using Mantras aside from having to recharge them is that Mantras are actually better used for a sustained fight, rather than a burst fight.

However, the recharge times are prohibitive in a full-contact “sustained fight”.

Thus, they are best used in a sustained skirmish where you can engage/disengage fairly often. In WvW this basically occurs all the time around most of the map.

Point being, MoP isn’t a utility. It is a damage skill, and therefore has no real place on a utility bar.

Unless you desire damage beyond damage. Kekekeke.

Edit:

Well, that’s just the base Mantras.

For general use, MoResolve is probably the only notable Mantra, because it’s rather good at what it does. MoPain is plenty viable in a power-based damage build, but most would probably want another utility rather than the elevated burst damage. Mesmer utilities are rather good, after all — which is probably the #1 issue with Mantras. They are on par for utilities compared to most in the game, but Mesmers have a really kitten fine selection of utilities, so Mantras become lackluster.

Then, of course, there is HM/EM and then RM. There’s not much to say about HM/EM — they add a huge amount of power to Mantras and make the 30/30 Mantra build. I don’t see anything wrong with them really. I think most players feel offended that they had to give up their favorite of Feedback/Decoy/Blink/IP to use those traits.

Fay.2735:

Pyroatheist.9031:

But that is exactly it right there. It is great for restorative mantras because of the low cooldown it has. However, by using restorative mantras, you are now tacking on utility to the skill. Without restorative mantras, it has no utility, and has no place on a utility bar. Every utility should have utility by itself, you shouldn’t need to trait for that particular skill in order to actually give it ANY utility.

The only way it would be better is if the heal is added to the damage mantra by default so you heal without having to trait it and in stead have a trait to in crease the damage done by mantra of pain (Kind of like there is one for Mind Wrack). One that is in Mastery rather than Grand mastery.

That’s an interesting idea. The problem is that it would be a waste of a trait, due to it affecting only 1 utility instead of the entire class of traits. Better would be to add the heal to MoP, and then put the trait that allows 3 uses into a master slot somewhere, and replacing the grandmaster in domination with something more fitting.

EasymodeX.4062:

Thus, they are best used in a sustained skirmish where you can engage/disengage fairly often. In WvW this basically occurs all the time around most of the map.

yes this ^ but that doesn’t make them very versatile unless zerg fight is the only thing you’re interested in. I like to do a lot of small team yak killing and camp flipping tho

30/30 Mantra build’s still good for those, just not the best.

Conversely, shatter builds are critically weak in any hard siege and “meh” in any large scale fight in general.

I found decent success using MoConcentration in sPvP for rezzing/stomping.

In PvE I used to use it simply to get around faster. If I’m not mistaken stability makes it so that fall damage doesn’t slow you, and protection mitigates fall famage (I had the trait on just in case, and this was a while ago, so my numbers would be off.) so when exploring and map completing, I’d just jump off high spots with concentration activated before hand to keep my movement speed unmarred.

@EasymodeX: Ok, long post, lets try to tackle this bit by bit.

First, you made a really good point in your edit. Mesmer utilities/heals are significantly more powerful and useful than most of the other utilities in the game. This makes mantras underwhelming by comparison. For example, MoR would be a great heal for most classes. However, you compare it to ether feast which has a massive base healing + a maximum of 1.3 scaling per healing power, and MoR suddenly becomes a bit wimpier.

The problem with MoResolve is that it is not generally possible to refresh it during an intense fight. It is great as a 1-off condition removal, and that is it. The other condition removals I mentioned are sustained and repeatable, and will end up removing more conditions, while giving utility at the same time. Note that I didn’t include null field, as that is entirely different. Null field is team utility, which MoResolve also lacks, but I wouldn’t use it to replace anything else as a self condition removal.

The 2 shots of daze from MoD are decent, but are just worse than, say, mirror images, which has the potential of providing that same daze, or confusion, or invulnerability, or damage due to the shatter mechanic, as well as being effectively repeatable given a long enough fight, where MoD is extremely difficult to recharge during a fight.

The problem with HM/EM is that they give mantras an identity crisis. The one encourages more use of mantras, and the other encourages leaving the mantras there as a passive damage boost. Additionally, HM provides what mantras should either have as a base value, or NOT in a grandmaster trait.

As I said before, there are a couple of niche builds for mantras, and most revolve around keeping them as a passive damage boost, long range nuking, and never actually engaging in a fight, because mantras are unbelievably bad for anything that involves a skirmish.

Kazhiel.8194:

EasymodeX.4062:

Thus, they are best used in a sustained skirmish where you can engage/disengage fairly often. In WvW this basically occurs all the time around most of the map.

yes this ^ but that doesn’t make them very versatile unless zerg fight is the only thing you’re interested in. I like to do a lot of small team yak killing and camp flipping tho

I run a full Matral build. I solo. I run small man. And i zerg. I aslo run dungeons with mantras. I run Sword/ Torch and Greatsword. I keep Mass Invis on the bar a lot. Decoy is nice. But ive learned to work with two stealths instead of 3. I think feedback is great but the cooldown is a little much if untraited. It all depends on what you want to do with it. Ive used feedback traited, and even traited to confuse. Its nice, but in small man action people tend to talk out of it. More so then in zergs.

I would never switch back from Mantras.

I love mantras aesthetically and keep trying to find uses for them, with limited success. Then, when I see a guardian using their staff 4, I get jealous and wish my mantras did that. Some pulsing effect while channeling them—pulsing once per sec for the 3-sec channel—whether it buffs allies or hinders foes.

Effects could include, off the top of my head:
Pain: Bleed and/or cripple nearby foes
Distraction: Confuse nearby foes
Recovery: AOE heal (incorporate Restorative Mantras)
Resolve: Random boons to nearby allies
Concentration: Fury to nearby allies

Kinda shooting high in terms of power, but the 3.25-sec channel is risky and has a high opportunity cost.

littleboat.1405:

I love mantras aesthetically and keep trying to find uses for them, with limited success. Then, when I see a guardian using their staff 4, I get jealous and wish my mantras did that. Some pulsing effect while channeling them—pulsing once per sec for the 3-sec channel—whether it buffs allies or hinders foes.

Effects could include, off the top of my head:
Pain: Bleed and/or cripple nearby foes
Distraction: Confuse nearby foes
Recovery: AOE heal (incorporate Restorative Mantras)
Resolve: Random boons to nearby allies
Concentration: Fury to nearby allies

Kinda shooting high in terms of power, but the 3.25-sec channel is risky and has a high opportunity cost.

I like that idea a lot. Though I’d rather AoE Protection from concentration.

However, you compare it to ether feast which has a massive base healing + a maximum of 1.3 scaling per healing power, and MoR suddenly becomes a bit wimpier.

If you are able to recharge MoR on cooldown, even without any Mantra traits, then it is competitive in raw heal throughput. With Mantra traits, it generally stomps on Ether Feast for heal throughput by a significant margin.

The problem with MoResolve is that it is not generally possible to refresh it during an intense fight. It is great as a 1-off condition removal, and that is it.

Technically it’s a 2-off (3 with HM). Also note its cooldown time. The result is that this comes down to “what is an intense fight”? If you have expect full contact for the duration, then Mantras are going to underperform due to the simple fact that you have to charge them. If you have anything less than full contact, all of a sudden you get a lot more condition removal a lot more often using MoR than other utility slot alternatives.

The problem with HM/EM is that they give mantras an identity crisis. The one encourages more use of mantras, and the other encourages leaving the mantras there as a passive damage boost.

It’s only an “identity crisis” at first glance. Once you work out a pattern of “Mantra management”, it’s not a big deal. Generally, I don’t pay much cognizant attention to my Mantra charges or cooldowns anymore and just use/recharge them by habit. The one thing ANet needs to do regarding this subtopic is to tweak the skill icons to make the difference between “charged” and “not charged” more clear. The main culprit here is MoResolve. The others are easily discernable.

As I said before, there are a couple of niche builds for mantras, and most revolve around keeping them as a passive damage boost, long range nuking, and never actually engaging in a fight, because mantras are unbelievably bad for anything that involves a skirmish.

Except the part where you can instadown any glass target at 1200 range, every ~14 seconds. The player can still engage reasonably well using normal Sword sequences and so forth. However, it would be more for chasedown and finishing, due to the defensive risks of the Mantra build.

I mean, I can down a glass cannon Thief by using Mantra of Pain without any other buttons. I actually had a GC Dagger/Dagger Ele max range lightning rush me in front of a keep, and I 100->0’d him as he traveled to me (well, more accurately it was about 100->10, and then he died right after he came out of it).

The weakness, of course, is that an IP build offers a bit more defensive capability, along with more flexible use of utilities (note: when skirmishing, a 30/30 Mantra build should usually use Blink as the third utility, so this advantage for IP builds is more about Decoy/NullField/Feedback/etc, not Blink).

Kinda shooting high in terms of power, but the 3.25-sec channel is risky and has a high opportunity cost.

This is a good point, and is probably one of the more interesting set of suggested changes I’ve seen. I would go with 1 stack of 5s Might per second for MoPain though.

@EasymodeX: The identity crisis persists through mantra management. The problem is that by burning any mantra other than MoP, you have stuck yourself with at least a 20ish second recharge on 4% of your damage. Additionally, mantra management is not always appropriate or possible when using the defensive mantras. If you need to burn stability or condition removal, you burn it without regard to cooldowns out of necessity.

As far as MoR goes, it requires both HM and RM to stomp ether feast, especially if you have a lot of healing power, as RM scales poorly as well.

Another problem is that mantras do just 1 thing, and require traits to do it well. Blink, feedback, decoy, mirror images, these all have multiple different utilities, and in the case of decoy and mirror images, their cooldown trait is a 5 point minor trait. Mantras are just lackluster compared to everything else.

Its all a matter of taste. Of the traits you mention above. There are plenty of people that never use mirror images. And plenty who don’t use blink. Decoy, and feedback are awesome skills. But its all a matter of game play. Some people want to “do the dance”. Stealth in an out, stack confusion, shatter your clones. Other people just want to hit as hard as possible. Like two big sluggers just throwing there best punches at each other, and seeing who drops first.

I dont have to put 10 pts in inspiration for the condition removal. And some people see Mesmers as having very weak condition removal. We dont have to worry about pathing for shatter mechanics. There are plenty of pluses and minuses. For me personally when i was glamour/confuse. If someone caught me solo, i lost more then i won. That’s just me. Now days they better see me before i see them, or i shred them apart. You can call it sub par, you can call it lack luster. It’s working for some of us, tremendously.

The identity crisis persists through mantra management. The problem is that by burning any mantra other than MoP, you have stuck yourself with at least a 20ish second recharge on 4% of your damage.

Maintaining the full 4 Mantras is not really necessary fulltime. That’s the first mental hurdle you need to clear to run a 30/30 build.

5560 + 300 + 3* (640 + .1*300) = 7781 per 21s; 371 hps sustained throughput.

[2620 + 300*.4] * 2 per [10+3.25+1] = 5480 per 384.6 hps sustained throughput.

So anyways, an untraited MoRecovery has higher sustained throughput than a maximized Ether Feast by a small margin. HM, and then with the Mantra cd trait:

[2620 + 300*.4] * 3 per [10+3.25+2] = 539 hps
[2620 + 300*.4] * 3 per [8+3.25+2] = 620 hps

These arguments are old and very tiring, especially when they stem from pure ignorance rather than the common inexperience.

While most mantras are rightfully underused in most circumstances, and reliant on traits, it’s not a total wash. The traits being spread out in different lines does mean you can pick up one or 2 and make them useful without having to build for them (though EM/HM as GM traits is a bit harsh). The notable front runner is RM, which is great in any sort of support or tanky build and makes MoRecovery a better heal than any other as long as you can recharge it.

Which brings me to my other point: The other thing players seem to overlook is the synergy between stealth and mantras. Stealth offers you just enough invis to charge up a mantra, and to get the most benefit of stealth you cannot attack during that time anyway. Daze also offers a similar synergy, though it’s often better to use that to press an offensive attack if you are able, but it’s just as good for some breathing room, too.

TL;DR: While mantras are usually underwhelming w/o traits, it’s not always difficult to pick one of these traits up and make mantras useful. And even w/o traits they can be MUCH less clunky, and thus way more reliable, with stealth, and maybe dazes.

Not needing 4 mantras at all times is a reasonable point, and I suppose if you need to burn them to get the hell out of dodge, you don’t need to worry about your damage potential temporarily suffering.

As for the heal calculation, you are using a fairly low healing power, but I won’t quibble about that. The real problem with those calculations is that it assumes continuous spamming of the mantra, leaving 0 time for anything else. First of all, the only build that could pull off this kind of spam without major punishment is my tank build.

I did, however, try MoR on it due to the very calculations you have here, and because it procs mender’s purity 3 times. However, I ditched it for a few reasons. Firstly, I have no room for either HM or RM in my build, so it loses effectiveness from that.
The real kicker, though, is the time spent working with the mantra. With ether feast, I hit it once every 20 seconds for a large heal, and that’s it. With MoR, so much of my time was spent charging it back up, my combat ability and mobility suffered, and that really turned me off from it.
One more problem with it is a little more complicated. MoR dispenses its heal in small packets compared to normal heals. At face value, this is not a problem. The issue is that if you don’t need all of the packets, you now have the choice of either wasting some and putting it on recharge, or holding them and effectively having a heal skill that is 50% or 30% as powerful as it was before. With a 1shot heal, it always has maximum effectiveness (ignoring the per illusion boost) and (in my tank build anyway) you can simply rely on regeneration for healing until the full heal is necessary.

If MoR had no recharge like MoP, then the packets of healing would be a bonus. Because of the recharge, each use decreases the additional effectiveness of the skill, making it a detriment to the skill instead.

@Gaiawolf: You make some interesting points about stealth. Unfortunately, they don’t quite hold up.

If you are running a full mantra buil, you won’t have 30 points in chaos, so no stealth duration increase. This means that the decoy and veil both don’t quite last long enough to charge even a single mantra. The prestige is useless for this as well. Also, a mantra build wont have more than 1 non-mantra utility most likely, meaning that every 30-40 seconds you will have the stealth to almost charge up one mantra. Seems a bit underwhelming.

I think the thing with mantras or at least the idea was that because they are instant cast they are therefore pretty powerful on their own merits. They are largely immune to other abilities and can’t be interrupted like other abilities once they are readied so the logic conclusion was probably to make the results less significant.

However, This advantage swiftly becomes of little note when you take into account the long cast time (that can be interrupted and leaves you vulnerable), The lack of better survivability utilities that you are forced to put aside leaving you exposed more and the sheer difficulty of playing such a build well (with so many skills having to be used at once, using complex combos and timing CC’s perfectly).

Compared to any other build I’ve played skill requirement is far higher and result far lower with higher margin of error. I think this kind of game play should be rewarded more than easier builds.

Perhaps mantras were more intended as a side effect of other builds, a choice to use one or two rather than be used as an entire build devoted to them but I’d love to see mantra builds be made more viable.

So I definitely feel they need some love. I already feel since we’ve been nerfed to the ground that running a Mesmer is harder than most other professions. Almost everything I do on my Mesmer I can do better on other professions or with less difficulty and/or bugs.

Honestly the only problem with mantras is that they are WAY too front loaded. Reduce cast times by maybe another second or 1.5 seconds and we could see them actually be used in pvp. Until then they will be yet another mechanic of mesmer (scepter for instance) that is just too clunky and unresponsive to be used in a competitive pvp environment.

@Fay: You are definitely right about mantras. They just simply aren’t competitive when you compare them to everything else a mesmer gets.

However, you are 100% wrong with respect to your other comment insofar as anything you can do on a mesmer can be done on another class with less difficulty and bugs. It is true that it is more difficult to do x on a mesmer than it is on most other classes. The kicker is that if you are really good at doing it, you can do x better than those other classes at the same time you do y better than another class and z better than a third class, all in the same build.

Mesmers are more versatile, have a higher skill cap, and consequently have a higher ability cap than any other profession in the game, hands down.

@pyro:
Haha! Nonono. Stealth won’t shore up all the casting for a full mantra build. I wasn’t even considering that. If I run mantras, its only 1-2 at a time, and then stealth does a very good job hiding me for almost all of the cast time while vulnerable.

Pyroatheist.9031:

However, you are 100% wrong with respect to your other comment insofar as anything you can do on a mesmer can be done on another class with less difficulty and bugs. It is true that it is more difficult to do x on a mesmer than it is on most other classes. The kicker is that if you are really good at doing it, you can do x better than those other classes at the same time you do y better than another class and z better than a third class, all in the same build.

Mesmers are more versatile, have a higher skill cap, and consequently have a higher ability cap than any other profession in the game, hands down.

This is exactly what is a problem with mesmers. Sure we have versatility but it’s too forced in a way. It’s like the profession can’t make up it’s mind and you are forced to be too versatile making all the builds to some extend compromised or extremely lacking.

There are so many play styles you can use as a mesmer, rolls you can fill but at the same time you are worst at all these play styles if you were to specialise too much you’d disable yourself competitively as you would be a sitting duck versus various other professions. If you try to balance you become subpar at all rolls.

Sure there are some viable builds that do pretty well but all of them suffer in some way. If you want to make a versatile profession make sure it’s truly versatile. Maybe rework trait lines for mesmers? So it’s more in line with the various innate playstyles rather than a randomly thrown together mix that’s more aimed at stats than actual build styles.

I played my mesmer a very long time, I love the profession and wouldn’t want it changed too much. All I would like is the different playstyles to be more efficient and more in line with other professions.

They nerfed a lot, some of which rightfully so but they didn’t buff the things that needs buffing in return leaving us pretty bare-boned at the moment with a lot of useless subpar traits/utility and underpowered abilities.

The truth is that the only reason people want mesmers right now is timewarp (and sometimes portal/veil). If we didn’t have timewarp or portal nobody would want us.

What’s the worst part of it is the skill cap requirement, We work so much harder for less of a result. I’d like to work this hard but but with better results overall.

Nobody at all feels the same about this? That there’s some balancing issues with mesmers? Difficulty vs Reward not where it should be?

@Fay: I completely disagree. Take, for example, my PvE build. In one single build, I have the utility of several different professions, and several different builds of those professions. My phantasms do huge damage, 3-5k hits from the berserker and 5k-9k on my warlocks. I can provide aegis from chaos storm. If necessary, I can remove conditions from the party with a disenchanter. I can keep regen up on every party member 100% of the time from the phantasm aoe pulses with smart placement. I can do 2.7k heals on a 4 second cooldown from spamming MoP. I can have 100% uptime on reflects between temporal curtain, iWardens, and feedback. I can strip up to 3 stacks of defiant instantly, and provide high speed reviving with feedback.
On top of all of that, I have 20k hp, 2k armor, reasonable uptime on protection, chaos armor, and retaliation.

Lets break that down. My damage with phantasms is extremely high. Not, perhaps, as high as a full glass cannon warrior, ele, or thief, but damage is quite literally the only place where the mesmer can’t quite match other classes. The difference is that other classes have to do things to do that damage, where my phantasm build simply uses phantasms, and now I can do other things.

If taking disenchanter, I can provide about 2 allies with condition removals every 12-15 seconds. That is about as fast as elementalist can do if they focus only on condition removals, though healing rain is better from the aoe perspective.

Through smart placement of phantasms, I can easily have 100% regen on every party member. A few other classes can do this as well, but requires them to be focused on that stat, such as banner warriors.

Spamming MoP provides 2.7-2.8k aoe heals every ~4 seconds. This is almost impossible to beat, especially considering that a lot of other powerful heals are ground targeted, and I can move around to where the healing is needed.

I can easily have 100% uptime on projectile reflects by tossing on a focus and feedback. Guardians can achieve 100% uptime on blocks if they significantly spec for it, but even they cant do reflects like mesmers can, and I lose almost nothing by making this change.

Additionally, I can strip boons no matter if I’m using greatsword or mainhand sword.

I do all of this with 20k hp and 2k armor. Some classes can do a couple of these. Some classes can have 20k hp and 2k armor while doing some of these. No classes can do all of these and have 20k hp and 2k armor.

Mesmer is simply superior at being able to do several things at the same time, and is able to do those things better at the same time if you are good enough. This is only one example, though I could use my tank build as an example of a mesmer bunkering better than almost anything else, or the shattercat build as an example of mesmers doing overall burst damage with survivability at the same time better than anything else.

As much as it sounds a silly statement, mesmers are just the best at pretty much everything.

Bunker build is by far a superior thing here. If you don’t believe pyro. Take the build to WvW or HOTM follow the guidelines and you will see so many classes kill themselves. The main weakness in his build (sorry pyro) is the power output that I have found. I am on Dragonbrand and since us and Mag our getting our rears kicked by Kaineng we have decided to have a fight club. Warrior told me that he wanted to fight me I says okay. We do a couple bouts he downs himself from a frenzy while I am just standing there twirling my staff. Then he switches it up. He doesn’t attack me just watches what I do and we literally just run around in circles for 10 min while he tries to spot the weakness and then that was it. My damage is low. Now I may not have the same accessories as pyros wvw build but I can imagine that against a warrior class that just runs away the damage kinda sucks. If they are out to fight you yeah you can out bunker guardians easy.

jportell.2197:

Bunker build is by far a superior thing here. If you don’t believe pyro. Take the build to WvW or HOTM follow the guidelines and you will see so many classes kill themselves. The main weakness in his build (sorry pyro) is the power output that I have found. I am on Dragonbrand and since us and Mag our getting our rears kicked by Kaineng we have decided to have a fight club. Warrior told me that he wanted to fight me I says okay. We do a couple bouts he downs himself from a frenzy while I am just standing there twirling my staff. Then he switches it up. He doesn’t attack me just watches what I do and we literally just run around in circles for 10 min while he tries to spot the weakness and then that was it. My damage is low. Now I may not have the same accessories as pyros wvw build but I can imagine that against a warrior class that just runs away the damage kinda sucks.

Quite honestly, if they completely refuse to fight/engage, then it’s mission accomplished. In tPvP, that is obviously a quite satisfactory situation. In WvW, depending on the situation, it can be quite fine, if perhaps slightly aggravating. However, I have never encountered a situation where I wasn’t able to kill someone that didn’t actually run away, as in your experience. Generally, you can play offensively enough to take people down over time, especially if you force them to make the occasional attack.

jportell.2197:

If they are out to fight you yeah you can out bunker guardians easy.

If they don’t fight you, you never die, and so you out-bunker guardians no matter what. The difference between a bunker guardian and my build is that you can actually kill things, and a bunker guardian does absolutely nothing except stay alive.

As a side note, send a pm to me the next time you make a fight club, I’d love to make an appearance.

I’m not here to criticise your build so I wont point the problems with it out, it’s a really nice build and as I already stated there are viable builds that do pretty well.

But it’s entirely beside the point of my post though, All I asked is for the builds that we have to be made more viable, to be more clear cut instead of all the random stuff that half the time doesn’t synergies and useful traits that would work well together can’t be matched up without losing other valuable things.

There’s clearly an intend there with the mantras etc. but as it stands they are neglected quite a bit. As I said I would like to see the underpowered traits/abilities to be buffed, traits to synergies better and the various playstyles be put in line more making them more viable.

I feel like the mesmer profession doesn’t know what it wants to do. Maybe they tried to squish in too many ways of playing one making some more redundant than others and causing the issue of not being truly versatile. I don’t know I just feel they miss some oompf compared to other professions and thats after playing one for about 1600 hours (and still playing).

So, please don’t be offended I’d just like to see them give some love to the mesmer profession

I’m also going to throw in a I completely disagree with Fay…. Mesmer has so many really awesome traits and utilities that there’s a reason there are “useful traits that would work well together can’t be matched up without losing other valuable things.” Yeah, you have to sacrifice some traits to get other traits but if you didn’t talk about OP. You keep mentioning how much you play mesmer, have you tried playing other classes as well? Because I really don’t see this identity crisis thing you bring up at all and as far as oompf I really doubt that’s the case when I can use Pyro’s build and pretty much 1v1 anyone and often 1vX and win. I think maybe you’re spending too much time trying to make mantras match up to other mesmer abilities/builds when they just don’t, not in the way you’re trying to use them anyway.

Kazhiel.8194:

I’m also going to throw in a I completely disagree with Fay…. Mesmer has so many really awesome traits and utilities that there’s a reason there are “useful traits that would work well together can’t be matched up without losing other valuable things.” Yeah, you have to sacrifice some traits to get other traits but if you didn’t talk about OP. You keep mentioning how much you play mesmer, have you tried playing other classes as well? Because I really don’t see this identity crisis thing you bring up at all and as far as oompf I really doubt that’s the case when I can use Pyro’s build and pretty much 1v1 anyone and often 1vX and win. I think maybe you’re spending too much time trying to make mantras match up to other mesmer abilities/builds when they just don’t, not in the way you’re trying to use them anyway.

I never mentioned anything about making mesmers OP, not sure where the animosity comes from but I think you’re completely misunderstanding my posts. All I asked for is they improve the lackluster traits/utilities, I don’t see how that is a bad thing.

As for the mantra build it works great and I have no trouble with it other than with p/d vit/toughness thieves and d/d bunker ele’s. So no, Mantra builds do work just their difficulty vs reward needs some balancing, maybe an improvement to Mantra of Pain and maybe another look at mantra related traits. If you don’t like my build fair enough, no need to be so hostile about it :/

Mantras are a lot better then they look on paper. I bet you the majority of players who say they are bad, simply haven’t tried using them for more then a few minutes. You do not need to create a complete mantra build to use mantras. They work just as well on their own.

• Mantra of Recovery is the best healing skill the Mesmer has, if you put 20 trait points into Inspiration, or 30 into Domination. This allows you to heal three times (or four if you have both traits) with Mantra of Recovery, while still having a recharge time of only 10 seconds! And on top of that, you can get Mender’s Purity which removes a condition when you heal.
• Mantra of Resolve is amazing against snare conditions like cripple, immobilize, and chill. Try using it the next time you are running through Orr, or you are running away from a zerg in WvW. It’s a brilliant skill. And if you are using Mantra of Recovery and the trait Mender’s Purity, as explained above, you are going to make a condition damage foe have a very hard time dealing damage to you.
• Mantra of Pain should not be underestimated in a burst build. Many forget that you can cast all mantras on top of all other actions without interrupting them. So you can shatter clones, deal damage with your weapon, and use Mantra of Pain, all at the same time for some serious burst damage. Mantra of Pain also has a very low recharge time of 1 second!
• Mantra of Distraction is great to cast against those Elementalists with their long channel times, as you can cast mantras on top of your other skills without interrupting them. This allows you to be a very efficient interrupter. But Mantra of Distraction becomes even more useful when considering that Mesmers are the masters of interrupts. If you trait for it, you can; deal damage on interrupts, inflict vulnerability on interrupts, gain fury on interrupts, apply a random boon when you interrupt, and apply a random boon to yourself when you interrupt. Now take all of this and multiply it by two, or three..
• Mantra of Concentration is the weakest of the mantras, because it is far too situational, Mantra of Resolve is much better, and you also have the trait Mender’s Purity. But if you are looking for a stun breaker, Mantra of Concentration will give you two in one skill.

If you are worried about the long channel time of mantras, it’s worth mentioning that you have the trait Protected Mantra which gives you +250 toughness when you channel any mantra. And that you have stealth skills like Decoy, which has the same duration as the mantra’s channel time (3 seconds).

You said there were a lot of traits that didn’t match up easily and that a person had to give up good stuff to match traits… I said if we didn’t have to give up stuff that would be OP.

I don’t see all these lackluster traits and utilities you complain of, just as I don’t see torch and scepter to be crap like so many people say. I see a lot of things that are great when you build for them to be great otherwise they aren’t so great. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Kazhiel.8194:

Can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Well then what do you expect me to do with it? That’s why you bake it in the first place. That’s like saying I can’t charge my mantras and expend them, too. They don’t do anything unless you charge them first.

There are plenty of subpar skills and traits ( all classes do), and we have plenty of posts outlining them. I don’t think it’s too much to ask to buff some underused abilities to promote build diversity.

Gaiawolf.8261:

There are plenty of subpar skills and traits ( all classes do), and we have plenty of posts outlining them. I don’t think it’s too much to ask to buff some underused abilities to promote build diversity.

Thank you, this is pretty much exactly what I meant but you worded it much better than I did!

Basically there’s a lot more potential for diverse builds with the mesmer but most of them are a bit neglected or don’t work as well as they could making a few balancing adjustments to traits/utilities would give them the oompf they need to be more in line with other builds/professions. That’s all I’m asking for.

What I meant with other professions being able to do things better I meant that they can do so easier than a Mesmer not that they are ‘better’ at it per say just easier. That said I don’t want mesmers to be easy I like that they are challenging to play but the reward for doing so isn’t reflected well. Specifically with the harder to play builds and thus the above balancing of some utility and traits would improve this.

They nerfed a lot of abilities but in return they didn’t buff the underpowered ones, leaving us pretty bare-boned at the moment as to build diversity when there is so much more potential there.

The real kicker, though, is the time spent working with the mantra. With ether feast, I hit it once every 20 seconds for a large heal, and that’s it.

Indeed, that’s the cost of using Mantras.

The benefit is that you can execute the heals while using other abilities, and that the heal uninterruptable.

With a 30/30 build, the heal throughput is rather convenient. For example, when sieging in WvW, Ether Feast simply cannot keep up with the damage intake. MoR can deal with the sustained damage much better. I’m at the wall for twice as long as the vast majority of other players — and I’m doing it in full glass cannon gear. If I used Ether Feast, I would have to simply back away for long periods of time waiting on its cooldown. With MoR I only back away to recharge it.

Remember, while Mantra recharging has the obvious alternative cost, most “normal” utilities also have their own costs that you bypass by using Mantras. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve dropped a Null Field and been aggravated at how long it takes to cast and then to activate. Dropping a Focus4 then iW for a Whirl finisher? That’s 3 seconds before you get a cleansing bolt. And you spent ~1.5 of those seconds doing zero damage.

Until you actually have to recharge, Mantra builds come out way ahead. Not only do you get the effects immediately, you were actually attacking during that time.

This means that the decoy and veil both don’t quite last long enough to charge even a single mantra.[] Also, a mantra build wont have more than 1 non-mantra utility most likely, meaning that every 30-40 seconds you will have the stealth to almost charge up one mantra. Seems a bit underwhelming.

Decoy and Veil last long enough, but I wouldn’t use those tbh. You can also recharge around LoS, or when simply de-aggroing your opponent.

Again, that’s a matter of Mantra management.

It’s nice that you’ve “tried” Mantras. Have you played with a full Mantra build for 20 hours straight in sPvP, grinding PvE (and story quests — those tend to be more packed with action), and/or WvW?

Using Mantras effectively is like playing a new class. If you play an Engineer for the first time, you can’t expect to be proficient at the class immediately. Mantras have a slew of playstyle differences due to their unique mechanic that is basically inverted from almost all abilities in GW2. You have to managing timing much differently, manage positioning differently, look at different spots on the screen. You also have to un-learn IP depending on build if you’ve been mostly using that (I had ran that for a long time prior to using a Mantra build).

It took me grinding 8 story quests in PvE, along with a full map clear of straits through cursed shore before I was able to not embarass myself with pressing 6789. I still didn’t even use Mantras well back then, but I didn’t feel like an idiot pressing the buttons. I’m not the best player that’s ever graced online gaming, but I’m also not too shabby. The learning curve of Mantras is real and is as steep as learning how to manage illusions and shatters.

Should they be buffed? Ehhhhhh, only on the very fringes perhaps (or something more than a fringe buff for MoC). I think the reduction to the 3.25s charge time is fine for the most part.

Kasama.8941:

Mantras are a lot better then they look on paper. I bet you the majority of players who say they are bad, simply haven’t tried using them for more then a few minutes. You do not need to create a complete mantra build to use mantras. They work just as well on their own.

This excerpt from your post seems to contradict the rest of what you wrote. Basically, any counter point that someone would have brought up as to why Mantras aren’t viable you countered that by listing a trait you have to take to minimize that deficiency. So, what you’re really saying is (it seems) is that Mantras aren’t viable unless you build yourself around them trait wise.

Harbinger.9645:

This excerpt from your post seems to contradict the rest of what you wrote. Basically, any counter point that someone would have brought up as to why Mantras aren’t viable you countered that by listing a trait you have to take to minimize that deficiency. So, what you’re really saying is (it seems) is that Mantras aren’t viable unless you build yourself around them trait wise.

Choosing traits that improves your build only makes sense, that’s why they are there. And choosing mantra traits makes a huge difference to a build. Just like choosing Chaotic Dampening makes a big difference if you use a staff, or Deceptive Evasion making a big difference if you play a clone/shatter build. I never mentioned anything about the traits being necessary, only that if you do trait for the mantras, they can quickly become the best skills you have as a Mesmer.

• Even without using any traits, Mantra of Recovery is still a split healing skill, that can be used instantly when you for instance are knocked down (with other healing skills, you have to wait until the knock down has passed), or on top of your other skills without interrupting them. And it still only has a 10 seconds recharge time. It’s a great alternative to the other healing skills we have as Mesmers.
• Mantra of Resolve is great on its own. Instantly removes two conditions, nothing bad about it.
• Mantra of Pain is still 324 base damage per hit, instantly, no matter what you do with your traits. And with a range of 1200.
• Mantra of Distraction is still very powerful without using any traits, simply because it’s an interrupt. Anyone who has tried to get their healing skill interrupted, right when they need it the most, knows how big of a difference it can make. With Mantra of Distraction, you get two interrupts in one skill. It’s solid.
• Mantra of Concentration is still good for removing stuns, but Mantra of Resolve is still going to be better in most situations.

Decoy is one of the most used Mesmer skills, channeling your mantra while you use it is just obvious. But even without any stealth, you still have your illusions to distract your foe, while you channel your mantra/s. It requires something extra, yes, but the payoff is also greater.

Gaiawolf.8261:

Kazhiel.8194:

Can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Well then what do you expect me to do with it? That’s why you bake it in the first place. That’s like saying I can’t charge my mantras and expend them, too. They don’t do anything unless you charge them first..

I guess you aren’t familiar with the expression…? If you eat your cake, you no longer have it, it’s gone. If you want to keep your cake, ie have your cake, you can’t eat it. It’s an expression meaning you cannot have both of something. In relation to this discussion I was saying you have to give up some good traits in order to have other good traits, you cannot have everything, or it would not be fair or balanced.

I would love if mantras kinda acted a bit more like signets but while they were left unchanneled, like if they did this:

While on cool down or not active mantras give….

Heal: When not readied or on cool down increases your movement speed by 25%.

Pain: Channel time goes down by .25 seconds each time you are hit. Increase damage by 20%

Condi Removal: Increases you endurance regeneration by 25% while not readied or on cool down. In addition the mantra itself should do something unique to give it a reason to be taken over arcane thievery or null field. Let’s say on use it gives distortion for 1 second.

Stability: reduces the duration of disables by 20% when not readied or on cool down. In addition the stability lasts 4 seconds, not 2.