Guild Wars 2

It just seems they don’t want this trait to work

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-August-25-2015

so The Pledge working as intended? /sarcasm

Yeah. I mean, the bug fixes in this patch are all good, but it’s weird that the bugged trait with arguably the biggest balance implications (The Pledge) hasn’t been fixed yet.

They definitely fixed a handful of decent ones but yeah I was also disappointed (and admittedly slightly surprised) to see DD go unfixed yet again.

Power Break—Mantra of Concentration: Fixed a bug that caused this skill to apply more than the listed number of stability stacks.

Because for those 2 second duration, 2 stacks was a lot of difference.
I would laugh if it wasn’t so sad.

Menders purity stands out as a much-needed fix.

Group me with those disappointed that The Pledge and DD weren’t fixed, though.

Are they trying to tell us something?
Are they trying to tell us that this is working as intended?

If this is the case why don’t they just say so, so they can put us out or our misery.

I mean come on, I had to shelve my BBBuild because of this bug, if it is really a bug.

tobascodagama.2961:

Yeah. I mean, the bug fixes in this patch are all good, but it’s weird that the bugged trait with arguably the biggest balance implications (The Pledge) hasn’t been fixed yet.

Except for veil. They sure gutted that one.

Next patch text:

“Updated tool tip of Duelist’s Discipline to correctly state that bleeds don’t apply when triggered by illusions. Only by the player”

Basically, our trait right now is working as intended, cause Magic Bullet procs 33% bleeds.

Don’t know whether to laugh or cry because my sarcasm just might turn out to be the truth!

I am actually wondering this indeed. I don’t believe this is working as initially intended because 1 bleed on 1 skill is really not worth mentioning. But they may just be afraid of this to be too strong. But considering we have to give up on phantasmal fury, it is not too strong, but still useful.

To be fair, duelist’s discipline is fairly strong on an interrupt build even without the bleeding, so it is still worth taking.

vana.5467:

Except for veil. They sure gutted that one.

I intentionally left that out, since nobody actually ran that even while it was bugged.

keenlam.4753:

so The Pledge working as intended? /sarcasm

What is this bug?

Lyger.5429:

keenlam.4753:

so The Pledge working as intended? /sarcasm

What is this bug?

The Pledge says it reduces torch cooldowns by 1.5% per second of stealth.
It actually reduces torch cooldown by about 4.5% per second of stealth.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Lyger.5429:

keenlam.4753:

so The Pledge working as intended? /sarcasm

What is this bug?

The Pledge says it reduces torch cooldowns by 1.5% per second of stealth.
It actually reduces torch cooldown by about 4.5% per second of stealth.

Wow I can see how combining this with PU could be a bit OP, wonder if they fix it or the tooltip was a typo.

Lyger.5429:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Lyger.5429:

keenlam.4753:

so The Pledge working as intended? /sarcasm

What is this bug?

The Pledge says it reduces torch cooldowns by 1.5% per second of stealth.
It actually reduces torch cooldown by about 4.5% per second of stealth.

Wow I can see how combining this with PU could be a bit OP, wonder if they fix it or the tooltip was a typo.

That’s why Staff with Illusions traitline is about 50 times harder than sword torch.

tobascodagama.2961:

vana.5467:

Except for veil. They sure gutted that one.

I intentionally left that out, since nobody actually ran that even while it was bugged.

WvW players do.
It’s an indirect buff to PU in a game mode where it’s already near mandatory.
I’m not happy about being even more reliant on this trait.

vana.5467:

tobascodagama.2961:

vana.5467:

Except for veil. They sure gutted that one.

I intentionally left that out, since nobody actually ran that even while it was bugged.

WvW players do.
It’s an indirect buff to PU in a game mode where it’s already near mandatory.
I’m not happy about being even more reliant on this trait.

No, it’s not a buff to PU at all. It’s just a nerf to anything not running it.

Hence why I called it an “indirect” buff.
Semantics aside, the point is that it makes PU even more desirable compared to the alternatives, and I think that’s a silly thing to do.

vana.5467:

Hence why I called it an “indirect” buff.
Semantics aside, the point is that it makes PU even more desirable compared to the alternatives, and I think that’s a silly thing to do.

An indirect buff is a change that buffs something without directly changing that particular mechanic. For example, if they made stealth give a baseline boost to movement speed, that would be an indirect buff to PU. It doesn’t directly change PU, but since PU provides stealth, it indirectly buffs what it does.

The veil change is actually an indirect nerf to PU. It makes the PU bonus provide a smaller flat amount of stealth when combined with veil. What it does do is it makes PU more necessary to have a veil that’s even worth putting on your bar. This isn’t an issue with PU, it’s an issue that stems from veil being garbage.

At this juncture, DD works as intended as far as I’m concerned. Phantasmal Fury is much better if you’re running condi. The 33% bleed on Magic Bullet is as good as the extra bounce providing confusion. -_-

MailMail.6534:

Phantasmal Fury is much better if you’re running condi.

Wut?
PF gives .2*8=1.6 bleeds above baseline.
DD (fixed) gives .33*8=2.64 bleeds above baseline.
By the math, DD gives 1 more bleed stack per volley per iDuelist, which is better than Phantasmal Fury for condi.

Add that to the fact that DD also has the recharge mechanic while PF does not, and pistol condi builds might actually be able to benefit from the pistol trait, where now they do not.

Full hybrid builds like Rampager builds might still get more out of PF, given the extra physical damage from phantasm crits.

MailMail.6534:

The 33% bleed on Magic Bullet is as good as the extra bounce providing confusion. -_-

With DD on 3 targets, there’s a 54% chance you’ll get a bleed stack on at least one via Magic Bullet.
With or without DD on 3 targets, there’s a 100% chance you’ll get a confusion stack on at least one.

Not defending that silly extra bounce, just pointing out the actual math here.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

MailMail.6534:

Phantasmal Fury is much better if you’re running condi.

Wut?
PF gives .2*8=1.6 bleeds above baseline.
DD (fixed) gives .33*8=2.64 bleeds above baseline.
By the math, DD gives 1 more bleed stack per volley per iDuelist, which is better than Phantasmal Fury for condi.

Add that to the fact that DD also has the recharge mechanic while PF does not, and pistol condi builds might actually be able to benefit from the pistol trait, where now they do not.

Full hybrid builds like Rampager builds might still get more out of PF, given the extra physical damage from phantasm crits.

I think he meant that he does not believe iDuelist will ever benefit from DD, so fury is better.

Silverkey.2078:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

MailMail.6534:

Phantasmal Fury is much better if you’re running condi.

Wut?
PF gives .2*8=1.6 bleeds above baseline.
DD (fixed) gives .33*8=2.64 bleeds above baseline.
By the math, DD gives 1 more bleed stack per volley per iDuelist, which is better than Phantasmal Fury for condi.

Add that to the fact that DD also has the recharge mechanic while PF does not, and pistol condi builds might actually be able to benefit from the pistol trait, where now they do not.

Full hybrid builds like Rampager builds might still get more out of PF, given the extra physical damage from phantasm crits.

I think he meant that he does not believe iDuelist will ever benefit from DD, so fury is better.

MailMail.6534:

At this juncture, DD works as intended as far as I’m concerned.

I didn’t “mean” anything. I explicitly expressed my opinion. lol But thanks for the math anyway.

Rob rob rob!

Chaotic Dampening tho!!

C’mon man. 3% plz?
.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Lyger.5429:

keenlam.4753:

so The Pledge working as intended? /sarcasm

What is this bug?

The Pledge says it reduces torch cooldowns by 1.5% per second of stealth.
It actually reduces torch cooldown by about 4.5% per second of stealth.

the problem with fixing this is that if they reduce it to 1.5, it will be about as usefull as the staff cooldown reduction trait, for which you all can check out various other posts.

do you want the pledge to become another chaotic dampening ?

if its that big of an issue on both of them, which it appears to be, maybe its better to just revert them to the way they worked before, just give them a flat 20% reduction.

Praise Geesus!

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Edit: oh yeah.. And people are rallying off our clones. Plz fix this yesterday.

They did fix it yesterday. /thread

Edit: Nothing gets past me!

Some bugs should take priority over others. Glad to know that it is indeed a bug though.

Fay.2357:

Praise Geesus!

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Edit: oh yeah.. And people are rallying off our clones. Plz fix this yesterday.

They did fix it yesterday. /thread

Edit: Nothing gets past me!

xD I tried to delete that so fast that I missed the period.

Tongku.5326:

the problem with fixing this is that if they reduce it to 1.5, it will be about as usefull as the staff cooldown reduction trait, for which you all can check out various other posts.

do you want the pledge to become another chaotic dampening ?

if its that big of an issue on both of them, which it appears to be, maybe its better to just revert them to the way they worked before, just give them a flat 20% reduction

Oh, I completely agree with you. It’s pretty ridiculous as it is, but realistic numbers on The Pledge just makes it underpowered.
Really, the basic problem is that making cooldown reduction of a stealth skill based on stealth creates a usage split:
1. using it for anything other than getting more stealth is extremely underpowered, because you have to stay in stealth too long to justify the expenditure (it’s not like The Prestige or Phantasmal Mage are some superior sniper-shot that you can use to provide superior dps every 20 seconds—every second in stealth is lost dps).
2. Using it for getting more stealth makes it overpowered, because you get too much stealth.
If you cut the numbers to balance out case 2, the trait becomes totally worthless for case 1. If you raise the numbers to make case 1 viable, it blows the value of the trait way out of proportion for case 2.

Either The Pledge should go back to a flat 20%, or should be based on a different condition that doesn’t reward time in stealth.

It has been suggested that they condition it based on burning application, but our burning sources are kind of few and far between, and rather weak compared to their competitors (The Pledge itself, once per —long-- cooldown, Phantasmal Mage which dies really easily, and Staff autoattacks). What you’d get is people using Staff to power the torch regen reliably, which is the kind of cross-weapon interaction that they tend to shy away from with weapon-specific traits.

I’m not sure the best solution, but I do know that if they make it hang on stealth skills in any way, they’re just going to create the same split-usage issue.

Robert Gee.9246:

Silverkey.2078:

It just seems they don’t want this trait to work

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-August-25-2015

There are a lot of bugs in the game and often times there are enough that we can’t get to all of them as fast as we would like. Duelist Discipline not applying to Pistol 4 didn’t get into my queue until after the cutoff date for changes to the 8/25 build. I’ve got it fixed for a future release though.

At least it’s confirmed that it’s a bug and not merely a wrong tooltip text!

Robert Gee.9246:

Silverkey.2078:

It just seems they don’t want this trait to work

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-August-25-2015

There are a lot of bugs in the game and often times there are enough that we can’t get to all of them as fast as we would like. Duelist Discipline not applying to Pistol 4 didn’t get into my queue until after the cutoff date for changes to the 8/25 build. I’ve got it fixed for a future release though.

Thanks for the reply Robert.

I think that the major issue here is more recognition and communication than timeliness. I don’t mind if it takes a few patches to get fixed so long as I know you’re aware of it.

But when it’s something that’s been reported for two months repeatedly while the profession sees minor bug fixes and nerfs it’s a bit disheartening to keep wondering “do they even read this?” So thanks for replying – but in our defense a similar thread has been made every single time we get a bug fix in the past few months.

Robert Gee.9246:

Silverkey.2078:

It just seems they don’t want this trait to work

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-August-25-2015

There are a lot of bugs in the game and often times there are enough that we can’t get to all of them as fast as we would like. Duelist Discipline not applying to Pistol 4 didn’t get into my queue until after the cutoff date for changes to the 8/25 build. I’ve got it fixed for a future release though.

Thanks for the clarity and sorry if I sounded “pushy”. As some mentioned, the problem with that trait is that it is key to many potential builds (essentially all builds wanting to use pistol for conditions for any reason), and also that we were starting to wonder if this was a bug or if we just misunderstood it.

But this patch was great. Mender purity was very important, and for my other favorite profession (necro), the MM fix was awesome. Thanks for the transparency.

Agree the stealth from The Prestige is pretty OP. I don’t see the problem with just going back to 20% reduction as it was prior to the change.

Robert Gee.9246:

Silverkey.2078:

It just seems they don’t want this trait to work

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-August-25-2015

There are a lot of bugs in the game and often times there are enough that we can’t get to all of them as fast as we would like. Duelist Discipline not applying to Pistol 4 didn’t get into my queue until after the cutoff date for changes to the 8/25 build. I’ve got it fixed for a future release though.

I am actually glad that you guys are prioritizing bug fixes over balance changes. Overall bug number should be reduced to a much more tolerable rate before balance tweaks can happen.

Robert Gee.9246:

Silverkey.2078:

It just seems they don’t want this trait to work

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-August-25-2015

There are a lot of bugs in the game and often times there are enough that we can’t get to all of them as fast as we would like. Duelist Discipline not applying to Pistol 4 didn’t get into my queue until after the cutoff date for changes to the 8/25 build. I’ve got it fixed for a future release though.

This just made my day. Thank you, Robert Gee-sus.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Oh, I completely agree with you. It’s pretty ridiculous as it is, but realistic numbers on The Pledge just makes it underpowered.
Really, the basic problem is that making cooldown reduction of a stealth skill based on stealth creates a usage split:
1. using it for anything other than getting more stealth is extremely underpowered, because you have to stay in stealth too long to justify the expenditure (it’s not like The Prestige or Phantasmal Mage are some superior sniper-shot that you can use to provide superior dps every 20 seconds—every second in stealth is lost dps).
2. Using it for getting more stealth makes it overpowered, because you get too much stealth.
If you cut the numbers to balance out case 2, the trait becomes totally worthless for case 1. If you raise the numbers to make case 1 viable, it blows the value of the trait way out of proportion for case 2.

I agree that the underlying issue is that the cooldown reduction isn’t inherently bound to the mechanics of the weapon. Sure, 1 of 2 torch skills gives stealth, but you’d hardly call it a “stealth weapon”. Both skills apply burning, one is a blast finisher, one applies retaliation… you don’t see it reduce CD on retaliation.

It also adds that the difference in stealth availability is… something:

• Just Torch: 3s stealth, every 24 seconds.
• Everything: 22s stealth without Veil, at varying CDs.

The extremes are too far apart, basically. What I would say is a safer bet is to make it proc on each application of burning to a target.

By all means, nerf torch. Bring it in line with Chaotic Dampening, the new MtD, the mantra nerf, Mirror Blade nerf… Keep on balancin’.

Just don’t do anything about burning, d/d ele or cele necro.

msalakka.4653:

By all means, nerf torch. Bring it in line with Chaotic Dampening, the new MtD, the mantra nerf, Mirror Blade nerf… Keep on balancin’.

Just don’t do anything about burning, d/d ele or cele necro.

Way to miss the point…

Carighan.6758:

msalakka.4653:

By all means, nerf torch. Bring it in line with Chaotic Dampening, the new MtD, the mantra nerf, Mirror Blade nerf… Keep on balancin’.

Just don’t do anything about burning, d/d ele or cele necro.

Way to miss the point…

1:0 for sarcasm.

I did understand the sarcasm, hence my comment.

Robert Gee.9246:

Silverkey.2078:

It just seems they don’t want this trait to work

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-August-25-2015

There are a lot of bugs in the game and often times there are enough that we can’t get to all of them as fast as we would like. Duelist Discipline not applying to Pistol 4 didn’t get into my queue until after the cutoff date for changes to the 8/25 build. I’ve got it fixed for a future release though.

I guess the problem is we get no communications and we don’t know whats going on. People are very mollified by a simple “we are aware of the issue and it’s on our to do list, but a few things have priority right now.”

Also we are aware you guys are very busy. But there are some bugs that have been around for a very very long time. For example, Phantasmal Haste didnt work for all phantasms, and that was a bug that didn’t get fixed for a VERY long time, so long we wondered if it ever would be.

I think what i’m saying is, we all know you guys are very busy, but a short note saying “we gotcha, just cant this sec” would do wonders.

Or maybe a public relations position whose sole purpose is to list on a weekly basis “bugs we are aware of,” and “bugs we are working on right now” or something like that.

course, you could always argue that even a small amount of testing would have revealed that 22sec of continuous stealth might have balance issues…..

scerevisiae.1972:

course, you could always argue that even a small amount of testing would have revealed that 22sec of continuous stealth might have balance issues…..

Thieves stealth more than we do.

scerevisiae.1972:

course, you could always argue that even a small amount of testing would have revealed that 22sec of continuous stealth might have balance issues…..

Not really. Opportunity cost and context. That 22s of continuous stealth is certainly totally out of whack in Silverwastes, isn’kitten And the 15 attacks you can launch during it. Oh wait.

Yes, in smallscale PvP it’s amazing, but that’s one tiny aspect of one tiny aspect of the game. Bigger picture is what counts.

Carighan.6758:

scerevisiae.1972:

course, you could always argue that even a small amount of testing would have revealed that 22sec of continuous stealth might have balance issues…..

Not really. Opportunity cost and context. That 22s of continuous stealth is certainly totally out of whack in Silverwastes, isn’kitten And the 15 attacks you can launch during it. Oh wait.

Yes, in smallscale PvP it’s amazing, but that’s one tiny aspect of one tiny aspect of the game. Bigger picture is what counts.

And thieves still stealth more than we do. I’ll be more willing to listen to it being broken when someone can explain to me how thieves current stealth ISNT broken. Look at what we have to do to get 22 seconds of stealth, when in comparison the thief without taking even a trait to extend their stealth gets 15 seconds from one skill.

scerevisiae.1972:

course, you could always argue that even a small amount of testing would have revealed that 22sec of continuous stealth might have balance issues…..

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps they did know exactly how it would work out, and decided it’s something they wanted, or at least wanted to try out, on the Mesmer?

I could be wrong too and TP and/or PU will get the bat come next patch! So be it! I’ll roll with those punches too. It’s just getting annoying to read this incessant whining about something that is at best “maybe kinda” OPd, probably more along the lines of “very strong” actually.

The mere fact is you’re not killing anything or anyone by having a lot of stealth uptime. Fact also is, we have a lot more anti-stealth abilities in the game then before, and there is really only one single game-mode in which this plethora of stealth can even be considered very effective. In PvE it’s completely useless. In sPvP also it’s very questionably effective, and comes at too high a cost at other abilities. In general WvW, as in zerg vs. zerg fights, siege battles, etc. it’s literally worthless.

That leaves us with solo roaming in WvW, the one single place where PU+TP shines. A game mode that clearly is not balanced around. So calling PU+TP overpowered is really quite disingenuous. It is simply blind to the realities that this view can at best be supported by a single niche game-mode, one that is generally not considered to be a cornerstone of game balance.

In the greater scheme of game balance, I’d say PU and TP are rather near the bottom of “urgent adjustments” to powerful/OPd traits.

Especially considering the very severe nerfs we’ve already eaten since the big overhaul patch, more than any other profession.

don’t forget trash skipping!11

is this working now?

Hasn’t showed up in any patch notes, so assume that it isn’t.