Guild Wars 2

Rakath.4579:

If Mirror of Anguish and Illusionary Invigoration are receiving cooldown reductions from 90s to 60s.. then why isn’t Desperate Decoy slated to receiving the same reduction?

honestly…if Desperate Decoy got a CD reduction you will see this new build floating around and it will be named troll-spec mesmer….we will be no better than a thief

on another note (I have a primary alt as an ele; so I view their forums time to time) some want us to have base 10k hp…

Scepter Auto-Attack

The issue with scepter is that its auto attack chain is slow and the clone it produces has poor utility. Staff clones are able to put out conditions, sword clones chase and remove boons and greatsword clones work well with stacking bleed.

1. Ether Bolt/Blast

• Make it like necromancer scepter auto attack to reduce the dreadful casting time

• Aside from the cast time, the rest of the skill can remain the same.

2. Scepter Clone: The clone when destroyed or shattered will give conditions that can stack on top of on-clone death traits.

• Fear of triggering conditions will allow the mesmer to trickily defend themself

• Utilizing conditions will allow it to solidify its place as a condition oriented weapon

• Scepter auto attack, with the concept of fast clone generation, has strong synergy with on clone death conditions (Overwriting)

• Unlike putting a condition on the actual attacks, this promotes a bit more thought on fully utilizing the clones to full effect

Why not just make the scepter auto attacks do a small aoe at the target.
This would also make it more viable in zerg fights.
And similar to GS clones the scepter clones would benefit from sharper images if they can hit multiple foes.
But make the clones spawn atleast 300 or 600 range from the target so that they don’t get insta killed everytime.

If aoe autoattack seems to be OP, just make the second autoattack be aoe.
So that it goes:
1) small bolt, as current autoattack
2) aoe 120 radius, same damage.
3) same as current, so higher damage no aoe + clone

The clones should only cast number 2, since the rest is pretty useless for them anyway.

LumAnth.5124:

on another note (I have a primary alt as an ele; so I view their forums time to time) some want us to have base 10k hp…

Hm that would make mesmer even more useless in the ’’competitive’’ pvp of this game. Mesmers are already useless in tPvP, if they do this then they basicly say:
‘’hey, you can’t use shatter in raids because your damage will be 0 to keep up with the defense, meta of roaming in wvw are PU builds and in tpvp you don’t deserve a spot. Good Luck shatter builds!’’

OoooK, Attachment updated.
Can be usefull now?

Scepter

• Cut the chain of Scepter #1, increase the charge of the first hit a bit
• Give it 20% projectile finisher.
• Scepter clones deal 50% of your direct damage
• If Scepter #2(-1) runs out, it also creates a scepter clone next to you (but does not when you use #2-2)

LumAnth.5124:

on another note (I have a primary alt as an ele; so I view their forums time to time) some want us to have base 10k hp…

Yup. I referred to this earlier. I might have felt some empathy if they asked for a bigger health pool for Eles and not for switching health pools. It never makes sense to nerf one class to make another one a bit better.

Mesmers aren’t that popular in the current meta anyway. We are already forced into Phantasm heavy builds in PvE. There is absolutely no point of nerfing our health pool. It will bring us in the exact same situation Elementalists are in right now (low to no build diversity because of mandatory traits in Water and Arcana) and make every Mesmer use a Phantasm build and hide in stealth.

Ironvos.9014:

Why not just make the scepter auto attacks do a small aoe at the target.
This would also make it more viable in zerg fights.

If aoe autoattack seems to be OP, just make the second autoattack be aoe.
So that it goes:
1) small bolt, as current autoattack
2) aoe 120 radius, same damage.
3) same as current, so higher damage no aoe + clone

I have used Scepter in WvW since launch only few minutes. If it had atleast small AE it would become viable weapon option with “on clone death” builds. So +1 for this.

Clones would be semi usefull without any additional attack mechanics just by dying. Small AE would make scepter OP in SPvP but it would help Mesmers with tagging in PvE/WvW. Clone AE would be nice yes, but only for sharpen images, 5 AE dmg isn’t much…

I’d if that trait already lowered the #2 of scepter, but my suggestion would be:
Fix that, make scepter #2 give 3 stacks of torment instead of 5, Leave 3 as how it is and make #1 something like:
1. Bold shoots out, same as before,
2. ‘’ , Blinds target
3. ’’, spawns clone and gives the enemy 1 stack of torment.

Leave the speed of the chain duration as it is. Also reduce the 5 seconds blind → confusion to 3seconds. 5sec is just stupid. (trait)

Just double the speed of the projectile and the animation of the chain and its ok. More clones make it even more useful to keep this weapon for bombing.

The chain does nothing but direct damage on a condition damage weapon while the other 2 skills are very powerful. Doesn’t make sense speeding up the whole process. What do you achieve? 400 damage instead of 200?
Scepter clones are also the most useless illusions you can have.

I have been thinking of a way to improve mantras without making them OP in any way.
Lately i have been using a bunch of them, and the biggest issues i have with it is obviously the long channel which is required and can easily be interrupted.
The cooldown on mantras is really no issue at all.
Therefore , what if Mantra Mastery (duelling VII) would drop the channel from 2 3/4 s to 2 seconds, instead of dropping the cooldown 20%
For the Protected mantras trait (duelling VI) what if instead of 400 T you would get a 3s aegis at the start of the channel, one layer of defense against interrupts.
And for empowering mantras (duelling XI) instead of +4% damage for each readied mantra, the channeling would give a benefit relevant to the sequence skill.
For example Mantra of Pain could give you 3 stacks of 5s might at the end of the channel.
Mantra of resolve could give 5s regeneration.
Mantra of concentration could give 5s swiftness
Mantra of distraction could give you 5s fury
Mantra of recovery could give 3s protection
This doesn’t make the trait push people to load the whole bar with mantras so that there is room for variation.

I do realise that this could turn Mantra of recovery into a beast.
aegis, protection, cond removal, on heal rune, heal while channeling, 2s channel and 10s cooldown with 3charges.
But that would require a 30/30/0/20/0 spec to get it all and spend 6 traits and a runeset on it. So choices will have to be made either way.

Another scepter suggestion:

Scepter #1: Increase Damage by 10%. Remove Ether Blast. Ether Clone is a projectile finisher.

Scepter #2: 2 second block of all damage. Counter damage is increased by 15% for each attack blocked, up to a maximum of 60%.

After thinking about these changes for the last week I think they’re all very good changes which will help open up some builds.

There’s really nothing in these patch notes to complain about imo.

Signet of Inspiration change.
Passive: 25% speed
Active: you and nearby allies get a random boon
and give it less recharge time may be 30

Signet of Illusions change.
Passive: Illusions(clones) apply (extra with Debilitating Dissipation) random condition to nearby foes when they are killed.
Active: Recharge your shatter skills
this will help with two things Mesmer speed and clones dying fast in zerg.

Me Games Ma.8426:

How would you react when I told you that the most Mesmer players go in stealth whiteout even knowing that they had the debuff? The Mesmer IS the only class that has a stealth skill that ignores revealed debuff. It’s just a single spell but I also think that they should fix this problem.

How I would react? I would tell you to learn2read, sorry.
As it clearly says in the tooltip, Decoy doesn’t give stealth. It’s a bit like how Temporal Curtain doesn’t give Swiftness.

That has upsides (Decoy can hide you even while revealed), but also downsides (you cannot stack stealth-duration by using Decoy, which is actually why I think it works the way it does, so we cannot do the 15s-Thief-stealth).

Assyrian.4827:

Signet of Inspiration change.
Passive: 25% speed
Active: you and nearby allies get a random boon
and give it less recharge time may be 30

That’d be a substantial nerf. Why? :O

I would really hate to see a passive speed buff on one of our signets. It wouldn’t feel much better than what we have now with having to switch or swap in a focus for curtain, because there are far too many utilities that a Mesmer already wants to take.
I switched my build and gear around a bit to freshen up my game and try something new, and I already miss my runes of the air for swiftness on heal.

My first thought would be a minor trait that grants 25% movement speed when we don’t have any clones or phantasms up. That makes it great for out of combat movement, but is a boon that would be difficult, if not impossible, to maintain in combat. Call it an Illusionist’s burden.

The question then becomes what trait line to put it in and what to either take out, or buddy it with.
Personally (and I know I’ll get a lot of shtick for it) would pair it with Critical infusion and change it’s functionality for it to give you vigor when your clones/phantasms crit.

Atra Culpa.5012:

Personally (and I know I’ll get a lot of shtick for it) would pair it with Critical infusion and change it’s functionality for it to give you vigor when your clones/phantasms crit.

You might get shtick, but it’s not a horrible idea to add some extra functionality to it. Critical Infusion is under fire. It, along with the Guardian’s vigor on crit, are getting their vigor nerfed. It just hasn’t been announced how.

Another thought is to drop the vigor entirely and take the RNG out of the equation, making it a passive buff. Something like: “Increase endurance regeneration for each active illusion. Increase movement speed by 25% when no illusions are active.” I’d have said increase the endurance regen at 25%/33%/50%, but since ranger’s 5 point endurance regen is getting nerfed, something like 10% per illusion is probably more realistic now.

Atra Culpa.5012:

I would really hate to see a passive speed buff on one of our signets. It wouldn’t feel much better than what we have now with having to switch or swap in a focus for curtain, because there are far too many utilities that a Mesmer already wants to take.
I switched my build and gear around a bit to freshen up my game and try something new, and I already miss my runes of the air for swiftness on heal.

My first thought would be a minor trait that grants 25% movement speed when we don’t have any clones or phantasms up. That makes it great for out of combat movement, but is a boon that would be difficult, if not impossible, to maintain in combat. Call it an Illusionist’s burden.

The easiest and most obvious way would be to make the Signet of Inspiration grant Swiftness when out of combat and a random boon while in combat. That’s something which is frequently asked for but apparently ANet doesn’t think it should happen. I don’t get why because the Signet only benefits boon sharing builds and would not enhance any common builds. Most Mesmers might still favor Traveler runes so the utility slot is not lost.

It would be a quality of life change in PvE though and I wished ANet made it happen.

Clockwork Bard.3105:

Atra Culpa.5012:

Personally (and I know I’ll get a lot of shtick for it) would pair it with Critical infusion and change it’s functionality for it to give you vigor when your clones/phantasms crit.

You might get shtick, but it’s not a horrible idea to add some extra functionality to it. Critical Infusion is under fire. It, along with the Guardian’s vigor on crit, are getting their vigor nerfed. It just hasn’t been announced how.

Another thought is to drop the vigor entirely and take the RNG out of the equation, making it a passive buff. Something like: “Increase endurance regeneration for each active illusion. Increase movement speed by 25% when no illusions are active.” I’d have said increase the endurance regen at 25%/33%/50%, but since ranger’s 5 point endurance regen is getting nerfed, something like 10% per illusion is probably more realistic now.

Those ideas heavily benfit Phantasm builds but won’t work with anything else. That might be okay in the case of shatter builds which could go for Vigorous Revelation but there are other builds which need Vigor a lot more. Phantasm Mesmers usually are already quite good at not being hit because they can keep a distance.

Xaylin.1860:

Clockwork Bard.3105:

Atra Culpa.5012:

Personally (and I know I’ll get a lot of shtick for it) would pair it with Critical infusion and change it’s functionality for it to give you vigor when your clones/phantasms crit.

You might get shtick, but it’s not a horrible idea to add some extra functionality to it. Critical Infusion is under fire. It, along with the Guardian’s vigor on crit, are getting their vigor nerfed. It just hasn’t been announced how.

Another thought is to drop the vigor entirely and take the RNG out of the equation, making it a passive buff. Something like: “Increase endurance regeneration for each active illusion. Increase movement speed by 25% when no illusions are active.” I’d have said increase the endurance regen at 25%/33%/50%, but since ranger’s 5 point endurance regen is getting nerfed, something like 10% per illusion is probably more realistic now.

Those ideas heavily benfit Phantasm builds but won’t work with anything else. That might be okay in the case of shatter builds which could go for Vigorous Revelation but there are other builds which need Vigor a lot more. Phantasm Mesmers usually are already quite good at not being hit because they can keep a distance.

Shatterers have a Vigor on Shatter available to them. It’s in a frustrating tree to incorporate into a shatter build (inspiration seems to want to be capable of a support shatter build, and I’d love to play as one, but it’s a hard sell), so it might need to be moved, but it’s there.

Clockwork Bard.3105:

Shatterers have a Vigor on Shatter available to them. It’s in a frustrating tree to incorporate into a shatter build (inspiration seems to want to be capable of a support shatter build, and I’d love to play as one, but it’s a hard sell), so it might need to be moved, but it’s there.

Errr… that’s exactly what I said?

However, there is more to a Mesmer than only Phantasms or Shatters. Making the suggested changes will drastically limit build diversity because every Mesmer will be forced to go Phantasm or Shatter if he wants to have a decent amount of Vigor.

Xaylin.1860:

Clockwork Bard.3105:

Shatterers have a Vigor on Shatter available to them. It’s in a frustrating tree to incorporate into a shatter build (inspiration seems to want to be capable of a support shatter build, and I’d love to play as one, but it’s a hard sell), so it might need to be moved, but it’s there.

Errr… that’s exactly what I said?

So it is. And I read it, I promise! One should not post pre-caffeine.

Jon, I’m still waiting for a Mainhand Pistol

To me that would remove the issues you guys currently have with the Scepter’s identity crisis and its very awkward auto-chain. Having a Mainhand Pistol would allow you to turn the Scepter into a true condition weapon while allowing the Pistol to become a viable choice for power based attacks.

(And it would finally give Mesmers a means to wield both Lyss and Ilya at the same time)

have they addressed our abysmal aoe’s as pve player i hate have to do crazy stuff like take mirror images so i can shatter to tag mobs or take sword when i’m a condi build.

drkmgic.9583:

have they addressed our abysmal aoe’s as pve player i hate have to do crazy stuff like take mirror images so i can shatter to tag mobs or take sword when i’m a condi build.

You’ll need an entire new weapon for that.

Aveneo.2068:

Jon, I’m still waiting for a Mainhand Pistol

To me that would remove the issues you guys currently have with the Scepter’s identity crisis and its very awkward auto-chain. Having a Mainhand Pistol would allow you to turn the Scepter into a true condition weapon while allowing the Pistol to become a viable choice for power based attacks.

(And it would finally give Mesmers a means to wield both Lyss and Ilya at the same time)

THIS. The whole time I read through this entire thread wondering, did anyone finally bring this up? I know the original question from Jon was what to do with Scepters, but this fits completely with the class and allows power/condi to use fully supported weapons per their builds. It solves his problem and mine. I need something to compliment my love of pistol OH without the limp noodle Scepter AA is for a power build.

Some ideas: (before I get started, yes I am crazy, no I am not ashamed and no I won’t care if you are brutally honest and hurt my feelings, because ‘normally’ they grow back. I’m an emotional starfish? …Yes… yes I am.)

- Scepter mainhand – with so many new mesmery things being added with the Krait Tower, why not allow some incorporation? For example:
SC1-1 – same damage + confusion
SC1-2 – same damage + confusion
SC1-3 – spawns a clone from the caster’s position that charges the target then explodes, to add AOE Confusion

THEN – New confusion change – at X stacks of confusion, target is affected by the trippy krait tower mind-altering spell for 5 seconds and all confusion stacks drop.

….I will add more later. Trying to stay focused here, but all of the things NPC mesmers are able to do make me completely jealous… and if we are trying to up the kittenery of this class a notch in the process, why not take from what is already in game.

So Scepter may be getting a little TLC but have they said anything about Torch (particularly #5)?

JonPeters.5630:

That being said, we are trying to avoid just condition spam overload with that weapon because that would be greatly compounded by clones spamming as well.

I agree with you Jon.

Besides, everyone and their mothers already use scepter/torch in some PU/condi build and it works extremely well. Too well I’d say.

So are they nerfing PU/Blackwater?

I like the idea of simply inverting Compounding Celerity:
For every illusion less than three active, your running speed increases by 8%. Does not stack with Swiftness.

If that’d be deemed too powerful, make it:
For every clone less than three active, your running speed increases by 8%. Does not stack with Swiftness.

Usagi.4835:

So are they nerfing PU/Blackwater?

The scepter auto attacks currently does not work with the common Blackwater build, so any change to the skill cannot be a nerf to that.

Deceptive Evasion- 5 second cool down. enough said. would eliminate brain dead dodges and spams.

Clones

In regards to build diversity, I think clone-production should be looked at in the future.

Currently it relies too heavily on Deceptive Evasion (20 points in dueling).

I haven’t been able to come up with a decent shatter or on-clone-death build that works without it. And this is not for lack of trying. This trait just singlehandedly increases clone production by 100%.

Suggestions

Some or one of these: (Not all of them, and most of them probably need tweaks to balance it out)

• Recharge reduction on clone production from weapons or utilities

• Adding a clone to certain utilities

• Adding another clone-creation trait in a different line

• Making scepter clone creation more viable. (Perhaps moving the clone creation to the 2nd attack of the chain, adding some damage to the third?)

This doesn’t mean that the trait has to go. (Although it may need a nerf if other sources of clone production get boosted)

I really hope Anet do not put a condition on the Scepter auto-attack. Mesmer condi builds are already very good these days, especially since we were given access to a stack of Torment that hits very hard. I would hate to see Mesmer Scepter become another spammy condi weapon like Necro scepter auto-attack. If they did add a condi to the auto-attack I would expect a nerf to the Torment stack of Illusionary Counter.

I personally like the idea of Ether Clone being replaced with Ether Bomb as shown in Profano’s post above. Or alternatively, maybe it’s time Anet started to add endurance stealing and draining mechanics in addition to Weakness. Scepter clones could drain a small amount of endurance per hit. Mesmer gets more punishment mechanics and targets have a reason to avoid/destroy scepter clones.

The best thing I see coming for scepter if they really want to keep it defensive and improve #1 through a condition would be adding a short duration of weakness (2-3 sec) and that clones could apply it too on 3rd hit.
Since it reduces damage output, this fits the defensive role, but it’s also offensive through endurance regeneration slower …

I liked the idea of adding a bit amount of weakness to the 3rd attack/clones 3rd attack.
But I’d only welcome a buff if they tone down perma vigor→clone spam→condi spam combo.

Ahhh :< Pls don’t tough my perma vigor. :<
I’d have to trait another one :< (Inspirations III)

Xaylin.1860:

I do not think that shatter Mesmers should receive a special treatment just because shatters are part of the class mechanic. I see no reason for it being the meta. It is like wanting pet Rangers to be meta. There should be many different builds for each class in a meta. Not only builds which rely on class mechanics.

One thing I need to get off my chest.

I agree with you, but I would take it a step further. Shatters already get too much special treatment, but not in a way that’s actually helping them.

Every single Mesmer in the game is required to run Mind Wrack, Cry, Diversion, and Distortion. These are shatter skills, and according to the summary of builds Jon posted, that’s four skills designed for one archetype among many that every single mesmer is required to take. This is poor design.

Why is the phantasm playstyle so passive on the offense? Because there’s no room to put in any skills that manipulate your phantasms in an active, skillful manner. Without any real estate to slot those skills, it will always be fire-and-forget passive play.

Why is it difficult to turn deception and effect-on-clone-death into strong and viable archetypes? Because Mesmers cannot make their illusions move like real people, and the “punishment” concept for guessing wrong and destroying illusions doesn’t exist outside of traits.

Why is it hard making interrupt archetypes and signet mesmers and mantra masters competitive? Because every single Mesmer in the game is required to take clones AND phantasms AND the exact same four shatter skills, but we only have enough traits to go around to make one or two mechanics function on a competitive level.

And it’s not like shatters themselves aren’t hurt by this. They can’t decide to substitute Panic instead of Cry of Frustration to mix a fear effect with their diversion daze for heavy interruption, or add Mirage Cloak to their metamagic bar to shatter for stealth. Four skills are expected to account for every single situation in the game, and if you don’t have a use for them, too bad. It’s the equivalent of giving all Rangers a bear pet everywhere they go. Sure, the bear might be slightly useful every once in a while, but that doesn’t mean that the pidgeonholed class mechanic is helping them flesh out multiple builds and make those styles of play compelling and competitive.

For more Mesmer archetypes to become viable and for current archetypes to expand outward to allow more build and stat combinations, one must consider giving Mesmers the ability to control and customize their class mechanic skills.

Yes! My final 10/20/0/25/15 Pantasm Build can be done!

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQRAsc7alwzaqXUTgGbNJxZGQP6oPgdSFUdJF8O3A-TwAg0CnIQShkDJDSSksIN+YZxGhJEA

2 Best single-target phantasm with 40%CD reduction
We can spawn all of them within 13-14sec

Phantasm 1 => Swap => Phantasm 2 => 12 second => Phanatasm 3 => (I prefer 1 phantasm died) Swap back => Phantasm 1

I want to improve staff skill to fix. 2 skill is useless no damage or condition do not consider a clone. 4 skill aura add reflex. Do you have a better idea? Sorry, I do not know much English at

Staff fixes:

• 1 feels pretty weak, it has a single target aa that deals 50% of the swords. Give it an additional bounce.
• 2 totally ok
• 3 totally ok too, except that it misses sometimes (even if enemies arent dodging) – fix that.
• 4 needs a major buff, it should start with aegis or simply work like a chaos storm – reciving the buffs without getting hit would make it viable.
• 5 totally ok

As far as general clone-balance goes, I’d say this:

• Yes, Deceptive Evasion is too strong. As a single trait, it’s insanely strong, and if you’re not playing a Phantasm spec you probably want to take it. And there’s something quite wrong with that, especially considering the placement of Sharper Images which works best when always being at 3 clones/phantasms.
• However, current DE is ~balance because our baseline clone generation is really weak. Even with IC and weapon cooldown traits, only few weapons (GS comes to mind) can actually “pump out clones”.
• That being said, I’m not sure a spam array of clones is the way forward. What if clones were non-trivial to acquire, but were durable, believable and easily fooled targets?

That last point is really my key point. Instead of making baseline clone generation stronger and in turn nerfing DE (quite ok, and I’d do the same with Phantasm traits vs baseline phantasms), I’d:
1. Make clones much meatier. Either our health, or close to.
2. Make clones much more adept at combat. They dodge, they use utility skills, they use various weapons skills. Mind you, none of these do anything. I’d genuinely remove even the conditions from clones (and rather make stuff like say, the staff AA stronger). Sharper Images should be the sole way clones cause any damage, and it shouldn’t be much.
3. Buff clone destruction/replacement and shatter effects. With clones now being more rare but also more powerful, make them count. Shatter should be a massive burst. In turn it should be our only burst, so that we rely on the destruction of our illusions to produce it. This gives an ample balance. Clones offer us stable defence, Phantasms stable offence, Shatter removes those for burst damage or defence.
4. This necessities some changes to Phantasm-balance. I’d increase HP, decrease per-hit damage, but increase attack speed. Phantasms should be the “stable” DPS, not the burst. Shatter would be the burst.

Your suggested change would heavily diminish build diversity across the whole class as it would virtually be impossible to play shatter or clone death builds in their current form.

It doesn’t help much with shatter doing a lot of damage if it can only be done every once in a while. Shatter builds are already highly predictable, we don’t need them to be even more gimmicky.

Clone generation currently is pretty good (saying so as a Sword/Torch + GS mesmer who tends to use his F1 and F2 more or less on cd) and does certainly not need to be improved. DE is a good trait, but only used for shatter and clone death builds and doesn’t need too much of an investment.

The IC buff should be enough to allow strong phantasm builds (maybe too strong in 1v1 but overall not as effective in larger scale fights) to exists beside the established shatter and clone death/PU builds. Shatter might need a slight buff or – preferable – blurred frenzy getting reverted to invulnerability but overall we are ok.

/edit: If everything i’d say we need a way to fight more effectively while not using stealth so we can finally capture/defend points on our own. For this we would need viable alternatives to decoy and mass invis (replace moa already…).

Hey guys. Long time Mes player, first time posting.

Couple thoughts regarding the sad state of the Scepter #1 auto attack. Many people decry the idea of it being used to spam conditions but the sad fact of it is that the weapon, as it stands, is a sorry excuse for a hybrid weapon. It is supposed to be the Mesmer condition mainhand weapon, yet it does power based damage on the AA, and poor scaling damage at that. The idea many throw around is adding damaging conditions, yet I think this too would be a detriment on the idea that the Scepter is supposed to be a “trickster defender” weapon. Having looked through all the threads I could find on the topic, I think I came up with an idea that would satisfy the condition application idea and the “trickster defender” theme: non-damaging control based conditions in a 120-150 area AoE. The Scepter projectiles resemble to me a tightly packed mass of chaotic energy, which would make sense for them to explode like mini-grenades on impact. Make the projectiles have the same travel speed as the Guardian Scepter, and that the next shot in the chain is not dependent upon the first shot impacting before the second is launched. Example as follows:
• Ether Bolt: 20% Projectile Finisher. No cast time. Upon impact, the bolt explodes applying one of three random conditions to 3 targets in a (120-150) range. Either Blind (1 second duration), Chilled (1 second duration), or Weakness (2 second durration).
• Ether Blast: 20% Projectile Finisher. 1/2 second cast time. Upon impact, explodes applying one of three random conditions to 3 targets in a (120-150) range. Either Crippled (1 second duration), Immobilize (1 second duration), or Daze (1 second durration).
• Ether Clone: 20% Projectile Finisher. 1/2 second cast time. Applies Confusion (2 seconds) , just as the tool-tip says, to the enemy and summons a clone at the target that casts Ether Bolt.

I know these ideas will be attacked by some, but I feel this change would go well with the class and the idea of being a “trickster defender” that can control the flow of a fight. The lack of seriously damaging conditions means that it is more of a utility weapon, which is something also lacking in the Mes kitten nal. It would also help in WvW a lot, as this would give Mesmers the ability to tag multiple tight packed targets and spread the CC conditions out. The RNG nature of the conditions plays with the existing Mes condi weapons, and the fact that it is limited to the primary target plus two means you are not going to be too powerful while still being very useful.

I look forward to seeing what you guys think of this idea.
Fen

Shriketalon.1937:

For more Mesmer archetypes to become viable and for current archetypes to expand outward to allow more build and stat combinations, one must consider giving Mesmers the ability to control and customize their class mechanic skills.

This is a really interesting post and it’s a discussion I wish more Mesmers would try to engage in. My take is that you’re coming at it from the wrong angle.

Shatters are a phenomenally well-executed game mechanic. There isn’t a day that doesn’t pass where I don’t marvel at whoever came up with them and their relationship to our class. The more illusions a Mes has out, the higher his defense (if only from simple body-blocking but also from traits and offensive pressure). When he chooses to shatter these, he risks both a cooldown and his first line of defense; the more illusions the higher the damage and the stronger the effect, but also the greater the risk if it fails. This is perfect competitive game design.

Other Mesmer specs find conflict with our profession mechanic not so much because of the effects themselves but because they destroy illusions, which otherwise facilitate an extremely passive play. I believe you can fault the unforgiving shatter trait/gear setup and the poor interplay between shatters and some of our other gifts, but it isn’t shatters themselves to blame. People don’t shatter phantasms because phantasms are highly rewarding by themselves, and because of their problematic strength they’re far closer to burst than to a DoT spec — they need either active management, finite attack cycles or longer cast times for this to ever not be the case. There’s also in fairness some truth to a point you made, that our shatters are underwhelming without being traited for (Mind Wrack in particular). Perhaps this could be solved by more shatter skills: I would love to see skills from GW1 carried over here, too.

I also agree with much of what Carighan has posted. Personally I’d like to see clones lose all damage (beyond S. Images), to become indestructible (other than through shatters, OOC/range destruction or replacement by the Mesmer), to inherit the Mesmer’s active buffs — perhaps at the time of creation, to allow for some mild counterplay — and for them to use a much wider variety of skills. Another change would be that instead of on-death effects proccing when illusions are destroyed by foes, they instead now proc on shatters. This both gives an incentive to shatter for players who otherwise wouldn’t and also creates some interesting choices at the trait window: do you want extra control through a strong cripple or Weakness, or just pure offense through Mental Torment, etc. If we were to keep condition damage as a viable option (which I believe has its own host of issues) it would of course be seen how this would intertwine with such a change.

blindrage.6158:

• Ether Bolt: 20% Projectile Finisher. No cast time. Upon impact, the bolt explodes applying one of three random conditions to 3 targets in a (120-150) range. Either Blind (1 second duration), Chilled (1 second duration), or Weakness (2 second durration).
• Ether Blast: 20% Projectile Finisher. 1/2 second cast time. Upon impact, explodes applying one of three random conditions to 3 targets in a (120-150) range. Either Crippled (1 second duration), Immobilize (1 second duration), or Daze (1 second durration).
• Ether Clone: 20% Projectile Finisher. 1/2 second cast time. Applies Confusion (2 seconds) , just as the tool-tip says, to the enemy and summons a clone at the target that casts Ether Bolt.

Your suggestion is wildely overpowered. Blind on AA. Immobilize on ranged AA. Daze on AA. All stuff which hopefully is never going to happen. It is way too powerful even when not considering clones. Also asking for the AA to be a projectile finisher plus applying a condition might already be too much because it was mentioned that they do not want to overload the AA with conditions. I personally do think that the AA could apply Chill or Weakness on the third hit though. I posted an idea earlier in this thread.

shimmerless.4560:

This is a really interesting post and it’s a discussion I wish more Mesmers would try to engage in. My take is that you’re coming at it from the wrong angle.

Shatters are a phenomenally well-executed game mechanic. There isn’t a day that doesn’t pass where I don’t marvel at whoever came up with them and their relationship to our class. The more illusions a Mes has out, the higher his defense (if only from simple body-blocking but also from traits and offensive pressure). When he chooses to shatter these, he risks both a cooldown and his first line of defense; the more illusions the higher the damage and the stronger the effect, but also the greater the risk if it fails. This is perfect competitive game design.

You make a very good point about the wrong angle. I get grumpy towards shatters because they’re the thing occupying those delightful skill slots without customization, but the mechanic itself is certainly well developed. The idea of building and breaking a persistent resource is an excellent mechanic and should definitely remain a strong archetype. But it could still use more skillbar customization.

The idea about invulnerable illusions, though….that’s interesting. Mighty interesting indeed. This would solve a lot of problems dealing with PvE bosses (Tequatl’s AoEs and other mass blaster boss attacks) and WvW zergs alike without introducing massive levels of imbalance.

Effect-on-death traits could be split between bonuses to blowing up/overproducing illusions, with one or two changing to “every time someone strikes a clone, they get a stack of X”. They’d have to avoid too many of those, obviously, but it would be really nice for a big WvW zerg to take it in the face when they lather down the AoE just like retaliation rather than shutting down the illusion mechanic.

I agree with you, I think Carighan’s got an interesting idea. Will need to ponder it further.

I really like the buffs to mesmer in this patch. However, it does seem like shatter mesmers are going to fall even more by the wayside. This list of changes differentially buffs non-shatter builds. The reduction in Illusionary Invigoration is far from game changing, and shatter mesmers already get IC.

As it stands now, it’s already pretty uncommon to find a shatter mesmers running around. I couldn’t get through all 10 pages of this thread, but how many people are talking about how awesome x/20/x/x/30 builds are going to be? I’ll bet it’s few. There will be the same old shatter builds, and lots of new phantasm and mantra ones.

On the positive side, I’m happy that the profession is not getting more nerfs.