Guild Wars 2

Ross Biddle.2367:

Powerful, or a reality? Clone shatters are our long range AoE attacks. At long range they’re slow and you can see them coming. To compare, imagine if with spammed sword swings or some randomly placed AoE attacks at your feet you could destroy incoming meteors from meteor shower. They can still be dodged, of course, but if other classes AoE effects cant be destroyed before reaching their target/location, why not clones upon shatter?

Since you were talking about zergs I assumed a more mid-ranged fight where you perceived the area damage to be too hindering because it will always destroy your clones. But you were talking about max range I guess.

I do get your comparison to meteor shower. I just don’t think that illusions are designed to be undestroyable at any time. They are not projectiles. I personally feel that making them resistant to area effects is more appropriate than making them invulnerable when using a shatter. Unlike when dodging area effects or projectiles, you won’t know if the clones are running towards you. They could just pass by and hit someone next to or behind you but still make you waste your dodge. It will just cause a lot of frustration.

I do get your point though. Mesmers are pretty bad at long range combat.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

ANet knows, that if they nerf shatter any further, the build variety will shrink down to phantasm builds in PvE. Mainly one build to rule them all (10/20/0/25/15) and some niche ones, noone cares about.

ANet wants to tone down dodges by nerfing Vigor which currently is overused. Yes, this hurts shatter builds specifically but it does not make them unplayable. Just weaker. Futhermore, this basically effects most Mesmer builds negatively since many of them rely on dodging and DE.

However, I think that the real issue in PvE is not shatter specific. Not even class specific. The combat system and endgame in GW2 simply favours pure damage way too much, making condition and support builds unplayable at a certain point if you do not want to sacrifice efficiency. That is why phantasm builds are so strong atm. And that is why shatter Mesmers are annoyed by the upcomming changes because it cuts down their damage.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Shatter, while sort of the class unique system, is no longer meta in PvP, Wv3 or PvE.

I do not think that shatter Mesmers should receive a special treatment just because shatters are part of the class mechanic. I see no reason for it being the meta. It is like wanting pet Rangers to be meta. There should be many different builds for each class in a meta. Not only builds which rely on class mechanics.

The sad thing is that I do not see any Mesmer build to currently be meta in PvP or WvW. While Mesmers might be decent at roaming, they usually are forced to be a Portal and Veil bot. In PvP, you might encounter some Mesmers in hotjoins and solo ques but very unlikely in tPvP. It is a class issue caused by the meta. Not a shatter Mesmer issue.

It is a shatter mesmer issue, as for now, with the december update, there is no more reason to play one already.
Less vigor will just make it easier to decide for phantasm in every single situation.

You get the whole setup then, strong phantasms, fast phantasm cooldowns, reflects and tons of damage in one uber setup.

What is shatter good for? You can just run a phantasm build and randomly shatter for effects, but as competetive option for DPS, shatter is gone.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

It is a shatter mesmer issue, as for now, with the december update, there is no more reason to play one already.
Less vigor will just make it easier to decide for phantasm in every single situation.

I think that is the reason why there has not been an announcement on the Mesmer Vigor yet. But still: shatters do not deserve a special treatment. Other builds should be as viable kittenters or phantasms.

ANet probably should consider getting rid of one of the two +15% Phantasm damage traits to create an environment where more Mesmer builds are on an equal level and then make general improvements to bring the class back.

[Edit]: So as+shatter got kittened? Seriously?

Yeah, “isn’t+it” is bad too… ^^

If every specc should be viable and shatter is no longer, there is a problem with shatter. Your words.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Yeah, “isn’t+it” is bad too… ^^

If every specc should be viable and shatter is no longer, there is a problem with shatter. Your words.

Just happened to me in another thread.

Well… they didn’t change Vigor yet. Let’s hope they do not mess it up. We will have to expect some massive rage from other classes if there is no change though.

Oh jeez, if Blade Training gets moved to Master Tier….

Ross Biddle.2367:

I know it’s not up in the discussed changes, but I’ve had this idea for a while.

Since clones are aoe fodder in WvW, and are weak in zerg situations, shattering can be ineffective much of the time.

I suggest making clones invulnerable upon hitting the f1-f3 skills. That way they can run through a zerg to their intended target without being eaten alive by aoe and weapon 1 spam. They can still be dodged, of course.

Not all builds are optimal in every situation, as it should be. I consider a shatter / Mindwrack build the equivalent of a thief backstab build; high spike damage for single target. Very tough for a thief to pull this off on a target in the middle of a zerg.

Mesmers have an interesting advantage with this however in the ‘on death’ traits, potentially forcing a decision to be made whether to use a dodge, kill the clones and take AoE condition damage, or just eat the shatter. I do feel that the target zerg does not suffer enough of a penalty from just spamming AoEs and killing clones. Possibly if some more ‘zerg-busting’ consequences were added to the on death traits (AoE imobilize, AoE Stun/Chill whatever) commanders might someday have to tell their mindless horde to stop spamming AoE.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Oh jeez, if Blade Training gets moved to Master Tier….

How dare you thinking of this?! You should be torched for mentioning it!

Luckily, this would not solve the Vigor issue. So hopefully it won’t happen.

What makes the scepter unique compared to other weapons? That is probably a good start on thinking what to change to fix it.

Confusing images is like a slower greatsword auto with added confusion. Its damage per use is good, especially so with added confusion, but it might not be good dps. It is easy for the target and collateral damage to avoid. It is nice as a means to do some sustained damage in place of having to use the auto attack. A quarter or a fifth of your time can be spent channeling it. I doubt it will be made to do better dps so perhaps changing it to bouncing would fulfill a niche. Its aoe capabilities may be too high after that but it allows one more trait in the condition line to affect it. The hybrid damage characteristic would also be useful for tagging without worry of clones dying. Of course, if necessary, lower the amount of targets it hits. It rarely gets to hit 5 targets anyways.

The block is little more than a condition version of the off-hand sword, but it does pack a punch. Its effectiveness is a bit lacking in pve, but how much can we expect from a block in pve.

The unique thing about the auto attack is the clone creation. Adding direct damage makes it compete with a few other weapons and adding condition makes is a weak staff, as fitting as that may be. How about if the trait for the scepter was changed to support what the scepter does best? For example, add one more illusion to the cap. It fixes the phantom limit as a mesmer now ends up with 3 and a clone. It can work well with a shatter build, though it takes even longer to get the clones out. The illusion on-death traits will work a bit slower with replacements.

The other way the auto attack can go is faster clone generation for less dps. Make the auto look like an attack from the scepter clone to blend in better. Change the skills to give the option of auto attacking for fast clone spam or to use other attacks in place of the auto for damage. One option is changing confusing images into a dps excelling skill. A low cooldown skill that is channeled to replace time spent auto attacking for dps. The mesmer could have an option of channeling it for half the battle in place of auto attacking when the clones are not useful.

Confounding suggestions sounds powerful enough that making it better may be too much. There is always the option to change other traits to sell confounding suggestions as a grandmaster. What makes it unique is the stun. As I remember, that stun in fact overwrites the daze that procs it. It is an important distinction given what dazzling does. It also allows two interrupts when defiance blocks the effects. It is most notable in bountiful interruption. Perhaps the adept in the domination line can be changed to work like the master does when using stuns. A 50% chance for 10 vulnerability is an ok effect. Or wastrel’s punishment can have one bonus given for when the target is not using a skill, and another bonus for when the target is not moving.

Zen.4678:

Me Games Ma.8426:

Menaka.5092:

Bacon.4918:

Make the reveal debuff apply to mesmers already!

Try to play a mesmer before posting on the forums, maybe you’ll notice that we already get the revealed debuff, and in many silly ways (bouncing attacks for example)

How would you react when I told you that the most Mesmer players go in stealth whiteout even knowing that they had the debuff? The Mesmer IS the only class that has a stealth skill that ignores revealed debuff. It’s just a single spell but I also think that they should fix this problem.

When a Mesmer uses decoy he’ll always be hidden even if he got the revealed debuff!

~ Me Games Ma

It’s not the only class. I watched a thief stealth on his fall damage reduction trait while having revealed (unless it ended right before his impact which is unlikely as he was targeted and I didn’t see it go down). And no, it does not need “fixed.” Its duration does not stack with other stealth skills.

Regardless of durations stacking, play by the rules. If you’re revealed, you shouldn’t be able to stealth. <— Period.

Me Games Ma.8426:

Zen.4678:

It’s not the only class. I watched a thief stealth on his fall damage reduction trait while having revealed (unless it ended right before his impact which is unlikely as he was targeted and I didn’t see it go down). And no, it does not need “fixed.” Its duration does not stack with other stealth skills.

Sorry I believe you just didn’t notice that it has ended short time before.
Do you have a proofe for the thief thing? This is the proof for my post.

I just tryed out the falling thief thing and I was Immune to stealth!

Oh you caught the misinformation going out about how non-OP the Mesmer is. Thank you, I was going to have to post those screens myself (which don’t exist yet…so I’d have to go make them :p)

Would it be at all possible to give mesmers more access to speed buff? I feel constricted when i have to use only focus to get swiftness. (signet is RNG and the trait w clones only works in combat and even then doesn’t really work well.)

I think I would like the Scepter to keep conditions going on target. It’s not overpowered, and I don’t think it would allow the mindless 1 button going.

To be honest, you can’t go braindead with a mesmer. You’re too squishy, you need to be on the move, you need to shatter at the right time, you need to daze, teleport, you need to do a bunch of things to actually do damage (now that the braindead phantasm build was nerfed). That would give the clones some utility, and having three clones would consistently refresh conditions!

Also on scepter 3, I would like it to be some kind of ray that keeps a bond between the mesmer and the enemy. And it would consistently apply confusion until the connection is broken (IE knockback, daze, etc or the mesmer cancels the effect and maybe have some 10 second of channeling like scepter 1 on Ele but on cooldown), it’s a way to stop an enemy from attacking. I think scepter 3 is broken, it’s a really awkward skill, I mainly use the scepter for torment in PvP, and even hitting that is really awkward.

What do you guys think?

Redscope.6215:

Me Games Ma.8426:

Zen.4678:

It’s not the only class. I watched a thief stealth on his fall damage reduction trait while having revealed (unless it ended right before his impact which is unlikely as he was targeted and I didn’t see it go down). And no, it does not need “fixed.” Its duration does not stack with other stealth skills.

Sorry I believe you just didn’t notice that it has ended short time before.
Do you have a proofe for the thief thing? This is the proof for my post.

I just tryed out the falling thief thing and I was Immune to stealth!

Oh you caught the misinformation going out about how non-OP the Mesmer is. Thank you, I was going to have to post those screens myself (which don’t exist yet…so I’d have to go make them :p)

I do believe Mesmers getting exactly the same amount of stealth as thief would be a welcoming change for all.

Short and Sweet Scepter Concept:

Quick Debrief: The Scepter needs to fill a variety of roles, and at the moment fills none. The Roles it would be great at filling are defensive support, control, and defensive conditioning. Unlike the Staff which focuses on Random boons and conditions, the scepter is more about direct aid and salvation through stopping rather then buffing allies.

Skills:

1. Ether Infusion-No Projectile instant-hit(Like Necromancer Scepter and Axe) surge on target, causes 2 stacks confusion(brief Duration), minor damage
——->Ether Blast-Cause Target to explode, cause confusion on aoe(1 stack brief duration), maximum of 3 targets near Minor Damage
—————>Ether Surge-Cause target to further explode in a larger aoe(5 targets max). The target foe gets a clone spawned on it which attacks with chain. The Explosion heals allies lightly who are close to target.

2. Empathic Block-Create a Aura of Energy that blocks multiple attacks on all allies in the vicinity. Mesmer receives a portion(5%) of the damage that allies and self would have suffered. It can has 2 end effects based on whether it is activated, or allowed to end on it’s own.
————->End-on-own: Chaotic Inertia-The Mesmer radiates a wave of healing that restores health equal to the damage that the Mesmer sustained. Causes Torment to nearby foes.
—————>Activation: Chaos Membrane-The Aura hardens into a wall of energy, creating a ring that allies can cross but enemies can not. The Wall can be damaged, and has health proportional to the damage the Mesmer received before activated. Foes inside the ring gain confusion(1 stack) every other second.

3. Confusing Images-The Mesmer radiates a wave of chaotic and psychic energy from the desired foe. That foe and those near it receive stacks of confusion so long as the Mesmer channels the spell. Allies in range of the Waves inflict confusion when struck by foes, as well as gain regeneration whilst in range of the waves.

Quick Explanation: The Scepter turns into a supportive weapon whilst still retaining heavy bits of Cease and Desist. This means that the Opponent has to be weary of attacking when the Mesmer begins to channel the second and third attacks. It still applies heavy amounts of confusion which garner a certain array of protection and grant allies renewal through direct healing, rather then buffing them(like the staff). It also turns the scepter into an AOE weapon, with multiple ranges and much more direct tricky concepts to play with. It avoids stepping on the toes of other weapons to much, and still leaves the off-hand to be equipped to fill the gap of the build you want(damage, more support, confusion). It also synergieses well with the Malicious Sorcery trait as it still keeps conditions as a part of the scepter. The Idea is to turn the Scepter into a more direct trickster weapon, and not revert it into a typical attrition-condition weapon. It is not about surviving longer then your foe for your conditions to take hold(like the staff). Rather the scepter is about stopping your target from eating you alive. With massive amounts of active defense, and confusion foes would be unwise to attack you(but the scepter would in turn be far less damaging). Its real strength shines when they do use a skill.

Short sweet and over.

Shatter based trait: Clones gain swiftness upon activating the f1-f3 keys.

Wasbunny.6531:

Ross Biddle.2367:

I know it’s not up in the discussed changes, but I’ve had this idea for a while.

Since clones are aoe fodder in WvW, and are weak in zerg situations, shattering can be ineffective much of the time.

I suggest making clones invulnerable upon hitting the f1-f3 skills. That way they can run through a zerg to their intended target without being eaten alive by aoe and weapon 1 spam. They can still be dodged, of course.

Not all builds are optimal in every situation, as it should be. I consider a shatter / Mindwrack build the equivalent of a thief backstab build; high spike damage for single target. Very tough for a thief to pull this off on a target in the middle of a zerg.

Mesmers have an interesting advantage with this however in the ‘on death’ traits, potentially forcing a decision to be made whether to use a dodge, kill the clones and take AoE condition damage, or just eat the shatter. I do feel that the target zerg does not suffer enough of a penalty from just spamming AoEs and killing clones. Possibly if some more ‘zerg-busting’ consequences were added to the on death traits (AoE imobilize, AoE Stun/Chill whatever) commanders might someday have to tell their mindless horde to stop spamming AoE.

DR isnt a horrible idea, however other things came to mind. In a large scale fight / ZvZ your target isnt exactly standing still. Potentially clones will be getting dragged through copious numbers of enemies chasing a target who’s moving in the opposite direction as them. DR vs AoE will only do so much.

Then there’s conditions. Being hit by direct attacks is one thing, but a clone running, without dodging, through condi fields and under condi application is going to die just as quickly. But it gets worse. Meteors from meteor shower can’t be cripples, chilled, or immobilisers. Pulls, knockbacks, fears, they’re susceptible to it all. Heck, base run speed is problem enough without all the CC’s on the field. anyone running traveller runes who’s in combat is going to move faster than a clone without any speed buff.

It’s not just about avoiding damage for the clones who’re running to shatter, that’s just the start of it. The mechanic simply cannot function under the high demands of standard, designed, large scale combat game-play. That’s a serious problem that needs addressing.

Ether Bolt:
Shoot out a bolt of energy that explodes on impact and hits multiple foes.
Critical hits causes one stack of Bleeding.
(no chain-skills)

JonPeters.5630:

I think we have a pretty good understanding of the mesmer scepter auto attack problem. I would really like to design a chain of auto attacks here that end with something good, and then allow the clones generated from scepter to also do that thing. That being said, we are trying to avoid just condition spam overload with that weapon because that would be greatly compounded by clones spamming as well.

Because you know nearly everyone else can’t condi spam like crazy….

jportell.2197:

JonPeters.5630:

I think we have a pretty good understanding of the mesmer scepter auto attack problem. I would really like to design a chain of auto attacks here that end with something good, and then allow the clones generated from scepter to also do that thing. That being said, we are trying to avoid just condition spam overload with that weapon because that would be greatly compounded by clones spamming as well.

Because you know nearly everyone else can’t condi spam like crazy….

Just because others do it doesn’t make it any better. I may have serious doubts about the balance team’s competence, but they’re right on with this. The less spammy conditions in this game the better.

Considering they want to improve Mesmer support I think it would be a good idea to improve the effect of Inspirations XII: Restorative Illusions and Inspirations X: Restorative Mantras. Restorative Mantras already heal a decent amount at base but a terrible scaling with Healing Power. Restorative Illusions is just terrible and even with the Illusionary Persona bug its not any better. Buffing it and making it scale better with Healing Power aswell would definately buff Support Builds for Mesmer by giving them a reason to shatter apart from Inspirations III: Vigorous Revelation.
Additionally there is Illusions 15: Shattered Strength. Instead of changing it to Illusions 25 it would be a great idea to replace it with Inspirations 25, reduce the duration of Might per illusion to ~5s and grant it to allies as well.
Increasing the duration of Fury on Staff 1: Winds of Chaos by just 1 second would be another great way to improve Mesmer Support.
With those changes I’m pretty sure Mesmer Support would be a very viable options.

Tbh i’d prefer them to change mantras ground-up to be a totally different kind of skill.

Swith support build on signets, redo mantras and related traits to be somewhat useful aside Restorative/Empowered mantras gimmicks.

Pyroatheist.9031:

jportell.2197:

JonPeters.5630:

I think we have a pretty good understanding of the mesmer scepter auto attack problem. I would really like to design a chain of auto attacks here that end with something good, and then allow the clones generated from scepter to also do that thing. That being said, we are trying to avoid just condition spam overload with that weapon because that would be greatly compounded by clones spamming as well.

Because you know nearly everyone else can’t condi spam like crazy….

Just because others do it doesn’t make it any better. I may have serious doubts about the balance team’s competence, but they’re right on with this. The less spammy conditions in this game the better.

Pretty sure that is not the point. Condi autos are fine, it is what allows degen builds to work. It is just that mesmer clones make the otherwise manageable stacks go overboard. Staff clones circumvent this phenomenon via RNG. Presumably they don’t want to duplicate this for another weapon, so it needs something new. AoE is an option as there currently isn’t one aoe clone.

Me Games Ma.8426:

Zen.4678:

It’s not the only class. I watched a thief stealth on his fall damage reduction trait while having revealed (unless it ended right before his impact which is unlikely as he was targeted and I didn’t see it go down). And no, it does not need “fixed.” Its duration does not stack with other stealth skills.

Sorry I believe you just didn’t notice that it has ended short time before.
Do you have a proofe for the thief thing? This is the proof for my post.

I just tryed out the falling thief thing and I was Immune to stealth!

Decoy works on a different stealth mechanic than other forms of stealth. It also won’t stack with other forms of stealth.

Heinel.6548:

Pyroatheist.9031:

jportell.2197:

JonPeters.5630:

I think we have a pretty good understanding of the mesmer scepter auto attack problem. I would really like to design a chain of auto attacks here that end with something good, and then allow the clones generated from scepter to also do that thing. That being said, we are trying to avoid just condition spam overload with that weapon because that would be greatly compounded by clones spamming as well.

Because you know nearly everyone else can’t condi spam like crazy….

Just because others do it doesn’t make it any better. I may have serious doubts about the balance team’s competence, but they’re right on with this. The less spammy conditions in this game the better.

Pretty sure that is not the point. Condi autos are fine, it is what allows degen builds to work. It is just that mesmer clones make the otherwise manageable stacks go overboard. Staff clones circumvent this phenomenon via RNG. Presumably they don’t want to duplicate this for another weapon, so it needs something new. AoE is an option as there currently isn’t one aoe clone.

Condi autos aren’t fine, and Mes clones are what’d make it a balance nightmare, never mind push it “overboard”. This whole thing with conditions and DoTs needs a serious rework (along with a pass on this game’s tremendous amount of AoE) and I’d much rather they wouldn’t toss the scepter into the muck ahead of time.

shimmerless.4560:

Heinel.6548:

Pyroatheist.9031:

jportell.2197:

JonPeters.5630:

I think we have a pretty good understanding of the mesmer scepter auto attack problem. I would really like to design a chain of auto attacks here that end with something good, and then allow the clones generated from scepter to also do that thing. That being said, we are trying to avoid just condition spam overload with that weapon because that would be greatly compounded by clones spamming as well.

Because you know nearly everyone else can’t condi spam like crazy….

Just because others do it doesn’t make it any better. I may have serious doubts about the balance team’s competence, but they’re right on with this. The less spammy conditions in this game the better.

Pretty sure that is not the point. Condi autos are fine, it is what allows degen builds to work. It is just that mesmer clones make the otherwise manageable stacks go overboard. Staff clones circumvent this phenomenon via RNG. Presumably they don’t want to duplicate this for another weapon, so it needs something new. AoE is an option as there currently isn’t one aoe clone.

Condi autos aren’t fine, and Mes clones are what’d make it a balance nightmare, never mind push it “overboard”. This whole thing with conditions and DoTs needs a serious rework (along with a pass on this game’s tremendous amount of AoE) and I’d much rather they wouldn’t toss the scepter into the muck ahead of time.

Well said.

shimmerless.4560:

Condi autos aren’t fine, and Mes clones are what’d make it a balance nightmare, never mind push it “overboard”. This whole thing with conditions and DoTs needs a serious rework (along with a pass on this game’s tremendous amount of AoE) and I’d much rather they wouldn’t toss the scepter into the muck ahead of time.

Serious, non-confrontational question.

Do you consider the Staff to be overboard? It does exactly what you describe. The autoattack inflicts conditions and the clones inflict the exact same DoT list. Is the staff currently overpowered in PvP, dominating WvW, or completely outclassing other weapons in PvE? Does the mesmer Staff define the competitive metagame in any way, shape, or form?

I understand the resistance to making a dull, spammy weapon. But that doesn’t mean that a condition weapon cannot have a condition autoattack (because that’s the damage type they’re supposed to deal out) or have clones that do something significant. It can have strings attached to reward tactical play and the other weapon skills can be the more significant portion of the weapon’s smiting potential, but it should still be doing everything it can to be a “tricksy defender” weapon.

Shriketalon.1937:

shimmerless.4560:

Condi autos aren’t fine, and Mes clones are what’d make it a balance nightmare, never mind push it “overboard”. This whole thing with conditions and DoTs needs a serious rework (along with a pass on this game’s tremendous amount of AoE) and I’d much rather they wouldn’t toss the scepter into the muck ahead of time.

Serious, non-confrontational question.

Do you consider the Staff to be overboard? It does exactly what you describe. The autoattack inflicts conditions and the clones inflict the exact same DoT list. Is the staff currently overpowered in PvP, dominating WvW, or completely outclassing other weapons in PvE? Does the mesmer Staff define the competitive metagame in any way, shape, or form?

I understand the resistance to making a dull, spammy weapon. But that doesn’t mean that a condition weapon cannot have a condition autoattack (because that’s the damage type they’re supposed to deal out) or have clones that do something significant. It can have strings attached to reward tactical play and the other weapon skills can be the more significant portion of the weapon’s smiting potential, but it should still be doing everything it can to be a “tricksy defender” weapon.

It’s a non-sequitur of a question. Staff is competitive, by the way, but it’s kept in line by a few factors (some of which, like WoC, are almost certainly by design because of our class mechanic):

-#1 is RNG and has a 1/3 wildcard thrown in
-Slow windup to reach its full potential
-Chaos Armor has been nerfed
-A PU Mes can’t force an engagement in WvW and overdoing stealth hurts your ability to decap/defend in sPvP

No matter how you revamp the scepter to make it more like the staff, in any case, it’s not the scepter that’s doing the tricksy defending for you, it’s the Rabid amulet. This is really what I don’t want to see.

shimmerless.4560:

It’s a non-sequitur of a question. Staff is competitive, by the way, but it’s kept in line by a few factors (some of which, like WoC, are almost certainly by design because of our class mechanic):

It is a direct sequitur. You’re earlier statement was declaring that condition damage on the autoattack is not fine and that Mesmer clones inflicting conditions are a “balance nightmare”. But the staff has a condition damage autoattack and clones who inflict conditions. If you’re saying that it is a competitive weapon, but not an overpowered one, that says something extremely relevant about condition autoattacks and clones that can do something useful on the battlefield.

Now, I agree with you that the “defender” part shouldn’t come down to what stats the player equipped, and that the weapon itself should require skill. Simply slapping conditions onto everything and calling it a day won’t do that. What the weapon probably needs is to find a way for the clones to help party members or reduce enemy damage in some clever way. Barring that, some excellent Mesmery debuffs on the scepter would be excellent.

But what I am stressing is that condition autoattacks and clones-that-do-things shouldn’t be taken off the table. If you’re okay with the staff and think it’s in line because of its various features, then the hypothetical scepter can also be equally in line while still fulfilling the role of a good condition weapon.

Shriketalon.1937:

shimmerless.4560:

It’s a non-sequitur of a question. Staff is competitive, by the way, but it’s kept in line by a few factors (some of which, like WoC, are almost certainly by design because of our class mechanic):

It is a direct sequitur. You’re earlier statement was declaring that condition damage on the autoattack is not fine and that Mesmer clones inflicting conditions are a “balance nightmare”. But the staff has a condition damage autoattack and clones who inflict conditions. If you’re saying that it is a competitive weapon, but not an overpowered one, that says something extremely relevant about condition autoattacks and clones that can do something useful on the battlefield.

Now, I agree with you that the “defender” part shouldn’t come down to what stats the player equipped, and that the weapon itself should require skill. Simply slapping conditions onto everything and calling it a day won’t do that. What the weapon probably needs is to find a way for the clones to help party members or reduce enemy damage in some clever way. Barring that, some excellent Mesmery debuffs on the scepter would be excellent.

But what I am stressing is that condition autoattacks and clones-that-do-things shouldn’t be taken off the table. If you’re okay with the staff and think it’s in line because of its various features, then the hypothetical scepter can also be equally in line while still fulfilling the role of a good condition weapon.

To add to this, I can see that if someone’s experience in game is primarily mesmer, then they would find spammy conditions to be a problem. This is because it is a problem for mesmers, and it is by design. Mesmers have the most invulnerability up time built in and, coupled with clones and stealth, is meant to be extremely difficult to kill via direct damage. It is intended for them to be less capable of dealing with conditions.

With other classes like say elementalist, where multiple conditions drop every few seconds for an indefinite amount of time, they’re practically invulnerable to condi spikes, and the only way to ever have hopes of killing them as a condi spec, is to keep reapplying stacks to hopefully get some damage in before they are cleansed. On the other hand, a direct damage burst build can usually bring down an ele in one combo if they are on cooldown (which are over 1 minute), that is also by design.

To say spammy condition is overpowered is not seeing the big picture. The game was never balanced around solo 1vs1 and there will always exist builds and counter builds. When asking for balance, you should focus on picking out roles that mesmers are good at, and can fulfill, given it’s current skill set, and not tunnel vision on eliminating its weaknesses, as no matter what, there has to be some weaknesses for every class.

That trait that does something when you get downed? I think every class gets that and they all suck. I think, however, that if something gave a slight heal (rejuve?) on downed and 3 seconds of quickness it’d be a really strong trait – because being able to spam those skills when you get downed is cool, and it’d make for a nasty surprise if a player isn’t prepared when they down someone.

Also I’d love it just a little bit more when I dome someone with feedback when they get downed. and they end up killing themselves.

Tentacle Love.3412:

That trait that does something when you get downed? I think every class gets that and they all suck. I think, however, that if something gave a slight heal (rejuve?) on downed and 3 seconds of quickness it’d be a really strong trait – because being able to spam those skills when you get downed is cool, and it’d make for a nasty surprise if a player isn’t prepared when they down someone.

Also I’d love it just a little bit more when I dome someone with feedback when they get downed. and they end up killing themselves.

The issue with traits related to the down state or rally (not the revive traits) is that people will always prefer being stronger while being alive and trying to stay alive instead of being downed but strong. I would prefer those trait being replaced with something actually useful.

Is it just me, or is the new ‘’Confounding Suggestions – We will merge the old functionality with the new functionality. It will now have 50% change to stun on daze and increase daze duration by 25%.’’ still not really worth picking in like every build?

I’m not talking about the place of the staff in power builds. There it’s a very well-designed and balanced piece of weaponry (though sadly less so since the removal of Prot from #4).

Picture instead a condition Mes whose every illusion is pumping out conditions. Where the triple-clone windup was once limited to the staff, now it’s up all the time. Players are punished for destroying clones and punished for leaving them alive, with no respite in between. The weakness of the staff used to be that the pressure ended on weapon swap; this is no longer the case.

The absolute last thing the game needs is more passive condition application. Give us more interaction with our illusions, say we swap with the nearest clone on the third auto. The game is already struggling to manage with the power creep as is.

shimmerless.4560:

Picture instead a condition Mes whose every illusion is pumping out conditions. Where the triple-clone windup was once limited to the staff, now it’s up all the time. Players are punished for destroying clones and punished for leaving them alive, with no respite in between. The weakness of the staff used to be that the pressure ended on weapon swap; this is no longer the case.

The absolute last thing the game needs is more passive condition application. Give us more interaction with our illusions, say we swap with the nearest clone on the third auto. The game is already struggling to manage with the power creep as is.

First of all, when keeping up 3 clones you will sacrifice a lot of your damage because you do not use your phantasms. Second, you will have to trait for conditions on clones death. Yes, they are quite nice. But they are random and do not deal enough damage to kill anyone. It is psychological pressure at best.

I do not think that this game needs more condition spamming. It is annoying and one of the main reasons why ANet is forced to introduce more condition cleanses to every class. However, the Scepter remains a condition weapon and right now using the AA is just pointless which should not be the case.

I think it is wrong to completely refuse to consider the option of adding conditions to the AA. They just have to be reasonable. A short damaging condition on the third hit won’t be too powerful even when adding clones. Adding non damaging conditions also is a possibility which would offer the Mesmer more possibilities for covering their Confusion and Torment from Sc2 and Sc3. They could also make the AA a projectile finisher (no blast finishers on AAs… let’s not be silly).

Feel free to disagree. I got to question though and I already did before: What could be done to the AA to improve it if not adding some form of condition? I see many people not wanting it to happen. Sadly, nobody of them came up with any viable alternatives so far.

Why are ppl saying Shatter isn’t meta mesmer build in pvp? It is..

Coulter.2315:

Why are ppl saying Shatter isn’t meta mesmer build in pvp? It is..

Depends what pvp you mean. If you mean raid WvW, then yes. Anything else besides that is based around PU.

Erm i mean actual pvp as in tourny pvp not wvw xD

mesmer doesn’t even have a spot for tpvp, so let’s not involve mesmer in that

Jackums.3496:

The staff’s competitive status has nothing to do with its conditions and everything to do with its utility. Phase Retreat for mobility and clone generation. Chaos storm for daze and ethereal field. Etc, etc. The conditions are defensively useful (ie. chill /blind), but are hardly the reason why the staff is taken in so many builds. The majority of competitive Mesmer builds are power-based, anyway, so the damage the staff does via conditions is negligible.

Point is, the scepter is a condition-centric weapon, just like the staff, and adding a condition (or multiple) to its auto-attack does not automatically create an issue. The staff is a testament to that. It just depends on what they implement.

I personally find the torment and confusion on the scepter, alone, to be powerful in a condition build. But leaving the auto-attack as is would leave the scepter in an undesirable and incomplete place, and implementing a power-based buff to it would just make it feel out of place. The only other option is a utility buff.

Perhaps the auto-attack gets no damage buffs (power or condition based), but instead receives a change to improve its utility, a la Phase Retreat. Obviously not another teleport, because God forbid we give people more to complain about, but something along the lines of a defensive/utility ability would be fitting, IMO.

Why not another teleport?

The third attack on the chain could turn to a second icon effect whereby, if pressed before the weapon resets the chain, you can swap places with the generated clone (such as iLeap only without the imob). That way the utility of the 900range scepter is that it’s a chase weapon. If you can manage to spawn a clone on your enemy as they’re fleeing, you get an extra teleport to stick tight to their kitten . Sounds like a great utility function.

If Mirror of Anguish and Illusionary Invigoration are receiving cooldown reductions from 90s to 60s.. then why isn’t Desperate Decoy slated to receiving the same reduction?

Rakath.4579:

If Mirror of Anguish and Illusionary Invigoration are receiving cooldown reductions from 90s to 60s.. then why isn’t Desperate Decoy slated to receiving the same reduction?

+1

Xaylin.1860:

Tentacle Love.3412:

That trait that does something when you get downed? I think every class gets that and they all suck. I think, however, that if something gave a slight heal (rejuve?) on downed and 3 seconds of quickness it’d be a really strong trait – because being able to spam those skills when you get downed is cool, and it’d make for a nasty surprise if a player isn’t prepared when they down someone.

Also I’d love it just a little bit more when I dome someone with feedback when they get downed. and they end up killing themselves.

The issue with traits related to the down state or rally (not the revive traits) is that people will always prefer being stronger while being alive and trying to stay alive instead of being downed but strong. I would prefer those trait being replaced with something actually useful.

Oh I know, trust me, I probably wouldn’t take the trait either, but it’s at least a nice place to explore options rather than just outright gutting it.

I’ve done some really hilarious things by realizing that I was about to be downed underwater and dropping time warp. thirty stacks of confusion is hilarious.

Tentacle Love.3412:

thirty stacks of confusion

wat

Tentacle Love.3412:

thirty stacks of confusion is hilarious.

did TW grant haste at 100% or 50% when you did this?

Shadowkiller.6725:

Tentacle Love.3412:

thirty stacks of confusion is hilarious.

did TW grant haste at 100% or 50% when you did this?

the first time, yes. recently, I got at least 20 but the krait died before I could get it any higher.

that is hilarious. maybe i test on a vet krait but iunno…vet kraits are bad mofos. they might finish me before i can apply pass 20 stacks….intresting

Pyroatheist.9031:

Tentacle Love.3412:

thirty stacks of confusion

wat

True story.

Rakath.4579:

If Mirror of Anguish and Illusionary Invigoration are receiving cooldown reductions from 90s to 60s.. then why isn’t Desperate Decoy slated to receiving the same reduction?

Because Mesmers already got enough not-stat-based defenses and should have their health pool switched with Elementalists. Because that’s just fair. At least that’s what some Elementalists think.

But seriously… ANet might just be scared of bringing more stealth to Mesmers.

scared…like when shattered might gave 3 stacks of might per illusion. shatter mesies were doing 4k per clone with mind wrack. ooo the QQ it caused….even a few fellow mesmers cried out “NERF ME ANET YOU MADE ME TOO POWERFUL” now when anet does something to the profession it’s hard to tell if it’s a buff or nerf or maybe call it balancing depending how you look at it.