Guild Wars 2

JonPeters.5630:

Overall I think this a good small step for a profession that has a lot of roles it can fill fairly uniquely. I think this might give us 3 strong mesmer build archetypes.

1) Shatter
2) Phantasm
3) Mantra

I think right behind those are the interrupt shutdown mesmer and the signet mesmer, so future suggestions towards those are appreciated as well.

Thanks,

Jon

idk about the lots of roles. yes in spvp u got shatterer and phantasm builds, but mantra is not really viable due to the speed. u simply dont have thetime to recharge a mantra.
interrupt shutdown is very limited and i have never seen a signet mesmer ever…..

now yes in pve and spvp some of these builds work quite well i agree, but in wvw not at all.

shatterer barely works as the clones die before they actuall shatter, phantasms maybe get 1 attack off, but most of the time the heavy aoe in a zerg kills phantasms without them being able to deal dmg.
mantra…. i sometime use it for stability, but if i do so, i will give up most of my tagging tools. so far my only way to deal dmg are utilities.

wvw mesmers are lacking group dps. i would like to have a build again that deals enough dmg like glamour, that doesent require clones or phantasms.

i only play wvw and only vs zerg. if im on yaks escort duty then yes i could use my spvp build, but if there is a 40man zerg at the keep and the commander decides to push out, all a mesmer does is putting a veil down infront of the gate and then noeone need us anymore. and no i hate playing support builds. in none of the games ive played i ever played a healer or support, so thats not an option at all.

our roles have been taken away in wvw when confusion and immortal mesmer got nerfed to the round.

i would like to move away from the 1v1 stuff. no class in the game should have 1v1 skills only. especially a light armor should have access to viable aoe. and i think the problem is ai. our class sould be less depending on how any clones are alive and phantasms being the main source of our dps…..
AI is terrible in wvw.

eldenbri.1059:

On a successful block (skill 2), grant one of these (doesn’t matter to me if it’s fixed behavior or the skill picks one randomly – there’s not a lot of chaos in the scepter…)
1 sec stealth
1 sec AoE blindness around the Mesmer
2 sec protection
automatically blinks the Mesmer (like down skill 2 – maybe this is the only time a clone is created).
You could balance this by shortening the block duration (maybe 1 sec or 1.5 sec)

Half of those would be entirely useless (or even counter-productive) outside of sPvP or WvW. Plus the block is a major damage source for the scepter.

What is an AA good for if you are not supposed to use it? Right now, there is just no point for using it.Using #1 actually is bad in PvE because you will pop your phantasms. Using an attack should not be worse than doing nothing.

Yeah, that can be annoying. It can also be fixed with one simple change: “Clones no longer replace Phantasms.” Done. If you have nothing out and summon a clone, it appears. If you have two clones and a Phantasm out and use a clone generator, the new clone replaces the oldest existing clone. If you have three Phantasms out and use a clone summoning move, the clone is not summoned.

A perhaps slightly better version of this would be the 2/1 system, where if you had three Phantasms and attempted to summon a clone, it would summon that clone and destroy one Phantasm, but never more than one, which would allow you to use moves that depended on having the clone around (like Sword 2), but it would still be relatively easy to keep up a Phantasm army.

@Carighan

I realize now as I re-read this that I wasn’t clear. I meant for those conditions to apply in addition to the block damage and the torment.

Basically, I’m looking for “tricky” ways that something could be added that could increase the defense. The options could all be AoE around the Mesmer to help allies as well.

Other than the celerity change which is awesome btw, it’s all kinda meh. But a positive meh. Not much really changed IMO.

Confounding is a bit of an odd change I kinda like it more than others.

Mantras are still mantras, nice trait changes but still feel underwhelming to take in pvp, nice for PvE tho.

Shattered conditions are still so far down a tree that even though I have a desire to go shatter support I’m not even interested. The buff was nice but not enough to be worth it, at least to me. I get why it’s kept in the tree (because it’s support to be the “supporty” tree as opposed to the generally understood phantasm tree) it sinks glass cannon damage builds so they don’t have access to, to much sustain. but it’s rather awkward where it is.

IMO you give up to much as a shatter build to go for it. (Shatter rate included if you let illusion tree take the hit.) I personally think it would be better as a Master trait in inspiration still sinking damage and utility form glass cannons, but allowing more supporty combat/reactive roles to be bread without going up the phant tree.

But I don’t dislike any of the changes redundant or not.

Thanks for the acknowledgement Jon but can we also get a dev comment of iMage? I’m really curious on the development perspective of it. Torch has seen various changes but iMage seems to regularly be regarded as the bottom feeder of the phantasms.

skcamow.3527:

redux.1502:

Signet of Midnight: Very good skill, maybe allow the blind to be AoE.

Harmonious Mantras:
Now baseline for all Mantras (all get 3 charges).

Both signet of midnight and harmonious mantras currently work this way.

You misunderstand me, and I worded my text badly. What I meant is to make Mantras always have 3 charges as a BASELINE. Either that, or make HM the Master trait (15) and move Dazzling to Grandmaster, and put Wastrel’s Punishment on Signet of Domination as its new passive.

The second option is the one I prefer, as it allows Sig of Dom to be focused on interrupts and dealing damage to people who are interrupted. It would synergize nicely with other interrupt skills and make for a workable interrupt build in either Mantras or Signets.

redux.1502:

…, or make HM the Master trait (15) and move Dazzling to Grandmaster, and put Wastrel’s Punishment on Signet of Domination as its new passive….

You would make the 15 minor useless to anyone who does not use a Mantra.

I did have a thought about scepter attack speed. Perhaps the solution isnt to increase the overall attack speed, but rather increase the rate of the attack chain. So the chain would be 3 very fast attacks (including bolt speed), with a pause between chains.

Currently it’s
—> attack —> attack --—> attack, —> attack —> attack --—> attack,

Instead make it
attack/attack/attack —-—>, attack/attack/attack —-—>

Clone production remains the same, but the damage and spawning of the clone are done in a quick burst.

Part of the problem with scepter has always been the chain reset, and the fact that targets moving behind your LOS cause the long attack channels to pause/interupt (its like a free interrupt :p). Also, if clones share this attack behavior, then it’ll help fix any clone death before 3rd attack hit/effect.

I’d like to see the iMage changes to something that would be useful during wvw sieges. Maybe he nullifies/reduces siege damage in a small radius for up to five people? Maybe you can place him up on a wall like an AE field and he randomly teleports/polymorphs people every couple seconds like a skritt burglar?

@Ross

I like your change for scepter auto-attack.

It seems to me that the attacks don’t start until the prior attack hits. So at 900 range, it feels just a little slower then if you’re right on top of the target.

So, I think that behavior of delaying the next attack until the prior one hits would need to change if you wanted the shorter attack intervals. (It’s possible that I’m just not seeing this correctly – I’m just watching the attack against dummies at different ranges)

I mentioned this in a previous post but I think it got buried in a wall of text. But shouldn’t our three main builds be:

1) Phantasm (power and condition)
2) Shatter (power and condition)
3) Clone-Spam (power and condition)

This gives us six distinct options—two versions each of three build types. And then each can be tailored further to boon share, support, glam, control, interrupt, etc.

Sorry for repeating.

Bunda.2691:

I mentioned this in a previous post but I think it got buried in a wall of text. But shouldn’t our three main builds be:

1) Phantasm (power and condition)
2) Shatter (power and condition)
3) Clone-Spam (power and condition)

This gives us six distinct options—two versions each of three build types. And then each can be tailored further to boon share, support, glam, control, interrupt, etc.

Sorry for repeating.

All of those rely around our illusions staying alive, which they are terrible at.

I’d love to see more “traditional” and less “pet-based” mesmer builds become available, whether those are glamour, boon, interrupt, or mantra-based.

Kelthien.8593:

Bunda.2691:

I mentioned this in a previous post but I think it got buried in a wall of text. But shouldn’t our three main builds be:

1) Phantasm (power and condition)
2) Shatter (power and condition)
3) Clone-Spam (power and condition)

This gives us six distinct options—two versions each of three build types. And then each can be tailored further to boon share, support, glam, control, interrupt, etc.

Sorry for repeating.

All of those rely around our illusions staying alive, which they are terrible at.

I’d love to see more “traditional” and less “pet-based” mesmer builds become available, whether those are glamour, boon, interrupt, or mantra-based.

agreed. i wanna move away from the duelist part. in any other game a duelist is a medium armor class and not a light armor.i want less depending on clones and phantasms and more real mesmer traits=aoe based stuff that doesnt require any ai!

I don’t like the area of those buffs :-).
I main a mesmer and I play only a mesmer (over 2k hours on her), and I am a bit scared with those changes (WvW roaming perspective, group play, 1-5 people).


The current WvW meta is a condition mesmer build with clone dissipation and high invisibility uptime. The buff to Chaos 25 only makes it slightly stronger. So, here we have one meta build buffed.


On other builds:

I personally have a problem with amount of stealth a mesmer can have with other defenses. Torch at 30s, Decoy at 40s (and a stunbreaker), especially if in tanky condition build means you cannot pin a mesmer. Now, with Illusionist Celerity at 15 you will make it far easier to get Decoy to 32s. Add PU and other mesmer defenses. As the recharge on a skill giving clone, stealth and stunbreaker at 32s is imo too small, I suggest adding 5s to recharge time at Decoy and removing stunbreaker. That way we have more utility slots options. I mean, really, too much stealth is not good – look at recent thief changes. I don’t want mesmers to be nerfed later because of Decoy, and it is almost a mandatory utility slot. I would prefer to have other mesmer areas buffed, not ones which work well.

Phantasm builds use Decoy to stunbreak / drop target and reposition, mostly. Do we want to encourage that by giving them more stealth (40s -> 32s)? Enemies are under heavy pressure anyway. Especially as new condition removal in inspiration suits them perfectly.


What I would like to see, for example, a Manipulation looking more or less like “Daze for 1s, instant cast, 30 seconds recharge, if you get an interrupt, apply 5 stacks of vulnerability for 8 seconds”. This could be traited (24s), this would give me something LESS clunky than Mantra of Distraction and this would augment Domination 15 and Power builds. With no casting time I could cast it while using long recharge skill. In short, a utility designed to interrupt. Mantra, with me moving between land and water in WvW ruins area makes the worst experience ever, sadly.


There is also a problem of Scepter and offhand Sword.
Sword 2 is a great defensive tool, Sword 3 immobilizes OR gives you a stunbreaker / displacement (mobility).
Focus gives you defenses (speed -> mobility and enemy cripple) plus iWarden consumes projectiles. And traited it is amazing.
Torch gives you a defensive stealth.
Staff has Chaos Storm and Phase Retreat (mobility).

Scepter has no defenses – Sc2 roots you and applies damage assuming enemy doesn’t dodge (but you still GET damage). If it unconditionally blocked for 1s after a hit, it would have a defensive tool. As it stands, block, when you are attacked by 2-3 players will cause you more harm than good. Same applies to offhand sword.

Please, apply damage instantaneously after Block in case of Scepter2 and Sword4 to prevent enemy dodge the damage and give us some defenses on those blocks; they are powerful offensive skills, but lack anything defensive (and root, to make it worse). This is my main issue with Scepter, not autoattack, not Confusing Images.


Consider also shaving 10 seconds off Arcane Thievery recharge (yes, that much – it is 45 untraited). As it stands, iDisenchanter (20s) is far better than traited Arcane Thievery in smallscale, Null Field (40s untraited) in larger scale. This skill needs some love – it is very unreliable and has longer recharge than Null Field, as it stands. I like it a lot, but – again – it is subpar right now. If it gets OP (which I really doubt) it can always get nerfed later.


What could help with mantras (brainstorm, not apply all in the same time):
- different mantras, different charge count (Pain: 3 shots by default, Distraction: 2, Recovery: 3… – this is an example, numbers are random)
- mantra recharge time starts when a mantra is cast, not when last mantra is fired
- do something with underwater / land…
- automatic recharge of charges when out of combat (to avoid “firing the last shot in the air”)


To sum up; in my opinion mesmer needs widening of option by buffing utility skills and unused traits and little nerfing (fine-tuning), especially in high stealth uptime builds. To achieve that, Decoy nerf (tuning) could be enough. But in the same time mesmer needs a utility option to interrupt other than Signet of Domination (which is a lockdown, NOT interrupt tool). Mantras, as long as they are that clunky, are very… unpleasant to use, for me.

You don’t have a Manipulation mesmer or a Mantra mesmer – those are tools to achieve something. Playstyles. You have a damaging role (Shatter, Phantasm), support role (Condi removal with Shatter or Mantras), boon hate role (Shatter, Null Field…), lockdown role… and most mesmers have more than one role. Everyone builds some defenses (stealth, mobility, stats, distortion signets), offenses (shatter, phantasm, clone dissipation, Halting Strike) and other roles they have.

I don’t use the Grandmaster Trait Confounding Suggestions, simply because it’s too deep in a line that I don’t particularly like the benefits of going into (except for the raw damage boosts, which are niche at best for my playstyle, however…

I don’t like the change to it because it’s the exact same as an Adept Trait Master of Misdirection (Illusions V), so unless you’re intending to spend 40 points to get 93% confusion duration, it doesn’t seem to be particularly useful.

Even then, most of the confusion duration builds that I know of would want to get confusion application from Illusions and/or other trees.

In the end, it feels to me like you’re (ArenaNet as a whole) actually limiting the effectiveness of the trait by keeping it as a Grandmaster Trait.

As for Mimic, a possible idea is for it to apply a debuff to an opponent (similar to Impale or Binding Blade) and then the next skill that is cast is also “Mimic’ed” by the Mesmer, allowing them to cast it after a period. Could potentially be overpowered, but a player who notices it can just do a quick auto attack to prevent the Mesmer from getting a strong skill. They can also just not attack during the duration. It would go hand-in-hand with confusion builds, I think.

For Scepter auto attacks, this may be straining the capacity of your engine, but if you could make the auto attack maintain it’s chain, but then each of the skills are channeled skills with a pre-cast time. If you don’t hold it down after/during the pre-cast time, the skill will continue on in the chain. If you do hold it down, it will start damaging the enemy similar to Confusing Images (of course not as strong and probably not applying conditions either). This would allow players using the Scepter as a Clone Factory to maintain that aspect, while also allowing players to have a ranged auto attack that doesn’t pull away from sustained DPS (while also using another offhand).

Just my 2c.

Xaylin.1860:

redux.1502:

…, or make HM the Master trait (15) and move Dazzling to Grandmaster, and put Wastrel’s Punishment on Signet of Domination as its new passive….

You would make the 15 minor useless to anyone who does not use a Mantra.

True.
Either way I really like the idea of Sig of Dom getting Wastrel’s Punishment.
The point being: why not put something like WP on a Signet in order to shuffle traits around and make things more accessible?

Scepter auto

- increase projectile speed
- reduce cast time of Ether Clone to 1/2 second.

Done. That is all it needs, though I did like the suggestion above to make it so the clones cast the whole chain including Ether Clone, but when the clone casts Ether Clone it dies, essentially replacing itself. It would make clone death traits + scepter pretty fun, without being OP (scepter clones may or may not be next to target at time of death).

Confounding Suggestions – do one of these:

- make it turn dazes into stuns at 100% rate (could add internal cooldown i.e. 5 seconds)
- make it turn any daze that interrupts a foe into a stun (100% rate).
- make dazes apply 3 stacks of 3 second confusion.
- make dazes apply 5 seconds of weakness

In any case, don’t just make it a super bland flat increase to daze duration. Nobody would take a grandmaster for that, especially when daze doesn’t stack on it self so Diversion would probably not even benefit from extra daze duration.

Signets – the signets themselves are not bad, but the associated traits one would take to make a signet focused build are really lackluster

- Blurred Inscriptions – increase duration of distortion to 2 seconds, and make it work with Masterful Reflection
- Cleansing Inscriptions – make it remove specific conditions i.e. all poison, burning and bleeding. Alternatively, just buff it to 2 conditions removed.

Irxallis.7350:

…snip…

1. The current WvW meta is a condition mesmer build with clone dissipation and high invisibility uptime. The buff to Chaos 25 only makes it slightly stronger. So, here we have one meta build buffed.

…snip…

2. and 3. I personally have a problem with amount of stealth a mesmer can have with other defenses. Torch at 30s, Decoy at 40s (and a stunbreaker), especially if in tanky condition build means you cannot pin a mesmer. Now, with Illusionist Celerity at 15 you will make it far easier to get Decoy to 32s. Add PU and other mesmer defenses. As the recharge on a skill giving clone, stealth and stunbreaker at 32s is imo too small, I suggest adding 5s to recharge time at Decoy and removing stunbreaker. That way we have more utility slots options. I mean, really, too much stealth is not good – look at recent thief changes. I don’t want mesmers to be nerfed later because of Decoy, and it is almost a mandatory utility slot. I would prefer to have other mesmer areas buffed, not ones which work well.

4. Phantasm builds use Decoy to stunbreak / drop target and reposition, mostly. Do we want to encourage that by giving them more stealth (40s -> 32s)? Enemies are under heavy pressure anyway. Especially as new condition removal in inspiration suits them perfectly.

…snip…

5. To sum up; in my opinion mesmer needs widening of option by buffing utility skills and unused traits and little nerfing (fine-tuning), especially in high stealth uptime builds. To achieve that, Decoy nerf (tuning) could be enough. But in the same time mesmer needs a utility option to interrupt other than Signet of Domination (which is a lockdown, NOT interrupt tool). Mantras, as long as they are that clunky, are very… unpleasant to use, for me.

1. As you said yourself: It only is a very small buff. It really doesn’t matter.

2. Increasing the CD of Decoy will destroy it for every build which does not use Illusionists Celerity. ANet actually decreased the CD in the past because otherwise it was not used. Phantasm builds indeed received a slight buff because they now can afford to get IC and all the damage traits. However, the meta condition build will still not be able to get IC while maintaining PU. Neither will a Phantasm build be able to get all relevant traits plus PU. Just doesn’t work pointwise. Nevertheless, some math: 5.625s (32s cd) vs four.5s (chat filter wtf…) (40s cd) stealth per minute and 7.5s vs 6s with PU. We are talking about 1-1.5s more stealth per MINUTE due to IC. If anyone thinks that this is gamebreaking…

3. Removing the stunbreak on Decoy will only open up an utility slot if you are not already running Blink. Otherwise Blink will become the mandatory substitute.

4. The Menders Purity buffs is great but hardly makes a difference when facing a condi build.

5. Why exactly do Mesmers need another utility skill which interrupts? It reads like you just do not like the Mantra (recast) and the Signet (condition damage). I fail to see why yet another Daze will help Mesmers.

@Xaylin and @clipnotdone

Thank you both for the feedback, I’m glad you found my suggestions for the scepter interesting! I’ve edited my post to clarify a few points on my suggestions.

Specifically, Confusing Images would have the instant activation time of Shield of Wrath while being able to buff nearby allies similar to Protector’s Strike. the instant activation would allow for an “on demand” block that could be applied to nearby allies.

Indeed, it would function effectively as another “block”, but it would have different goals and uses than Illusionary Counter:

1. Confusing Images could be used to cover an action- like a heal, elite skill or even Illusionary counter!

2. It allows the Mesmer to do other things- unlike Illusionary counter which requires an action commitment. The shield would persist until its duration expires or an attack is blocked allowing the Mesmer to weapon swap or dodge if necessary without losing the benefit of having activated Confusing Images.

3. It acts as a support tide turner- growing stronger the more allies are nearby. When Confusing Images blocks an attack, it generates AoE regen, blindness and confusion. Its effects would be compounded on nearby allies and enemies if multiple shields break at once in the same proximity.

I was at one point thinking of adding an “if not destroyed before duration expires= end effect” to Confusing Images, but I figured that would be too much going on in one skill which was already punishing enough. Besides, if the shatter effect of Confusing Images is intimidating enough stops foes from attacking during it’s short duration, then I think that’s the best kind of “end effect”- and very fitting to the core of the Mesmer.

That being said, I do think the sequence skill on Illusionary Counter could warrant rework to fit the “kitten ed if you do, kitten ed if you don’t” punishment and support aspect a al Xaylin’s suggestion.

Lastly, a number of people have suggested that the Scepter Auto-Attack should not be modified to include a damaging condition or another unique aspect. I’m very interested to know why.

As it stands the clones are very inferior damage-wise and offer no utility. Certainly I can understand not wanting to overload the auto-attack, yet without something else scepter clones are just too lacking. Perhaps this is a non-issue to power build Mesmers, but it limits this weapon’s use for condition and support Mesmers who already have scanty weapon options.

The scepter autoattack SHOULD have a unique aspect that the clones can inherit.

The scepter autoattack SHOULD NOT have a condition.

Conditions on autoattacks are bad. They produce spammy gameplay that is only countered by spammy condition cleanses. It’s not fun, it’s not skillful, and it shouldn’t exist. There are already more than enough autoattacks (including Mesmer staff) that have conditions. Scepter doesn’t need to join the already too long list.

Mimic/Echo
Also can someone look at the skill icons for mimic and echo? They’re to similar. I often find myself forgetting ive got echo up, running into battle, firing the skill expecting Mimic, and seeing nothing happen because ive forgotten/confused the two,.

Pyroatheist.9031:

The scepter autoattack SHOULD have a unique aspect that the clones can inherit.

The scepter autoattack SHOULD NOT have a condition.

Conditions on autoattacks are bad. They produce spammy gameplay that is only countered by spammy condition cleanses. It’s not fun, it’s not skillful, and it shouldn’t exist. There are already more than enough autoattacks (including Mesmer staff) that have conditions. Scepter doesn’t need to join the already too long list.

Agreed. I think the notion of scepter spamming conditions from it’s AA is pretty much out at this point. Remember what Jon Peters has already said about that previously in this thread:

JonPeters.5630:

Scepter
Scepter is still missing something but we don’t want to overload the autoattack as we think that promotes more mindless play and are trying to move away from builds that focus so much on the “1” skill. I feel like that scepter should be the tricksy defender that can stop enemies from attacking and defend allies, but maybe it’s single target nature is keeping that from working.

I think we have a pretty good understanding of the mesmer scepter auto attack problem. I would really like to design a chain of auto attacks here that end with something good, and then allow the clones generated from scepter to also do that thing. That being said, we are trying to avoid just condition spam overload with that weapon because that would be greatly compounded by clones spamming as well.

Need to keep these things in mind as we suggest new ideas. Although it sounds a bit odd (probably just because I’m not used to the thought of it), having scepter AA “defend” as he says, or maybe buff allies sounds kinda cool if done right. He mentions stopping enemies from attacking, could be referring to any number of boons that could be applied or maybe CC. Also note he mentions an AoE reference (rather, speaking of how single target may not be working), of which I have seen a few interesting ideas about in the thread thus far.

My request,not sure if it was mentioned or not, is the torch blast finisher. Can this be looked at to happen when the skill is activated and not on the end? It is sometimes does not go off until after the combo field is already gone and so you can’t get the finisher

Pyroatheist.9031:

The scepter autoattack SHOULD have a unique aspect that the clones can inherit.

The scepter autoattack SHOULD NOT have a condition.

Conditions on autoattacks are bad. They produce spammy gameplay that is only countered by spammy condition cleanses. It’s not fun, it’s not skillful, and it shouldn’t exist. There are already more than enough autoattacks (including Mesmer staff) that have conditions. Scepter doesn’t need to join the already too long list.

I certainly understand the concern with having Auto-Attacks apply conditions and their link to “spammy” gameplay, but does that mean that auto-attacks without conditions are spammed less than their peers with conditions?

I think having conditions on auto-attack is part of what creates spammy gameplay but such a position is only telling part of the story; simply removing conditions from auto-attacks wouldn’t stop them from being spammed, it would just change the reasons for spamming.

As long as there is an auto-attack feature, as long as slot 1 skills remain with-out cool downs and, as long as one can attack a target with impunity (i.e. can attack on the move, won’t have their attacks reflected or proc negative effects etc.), and as long as slot 1 skills can provide greater effects than other tools in a players kitten nal that are off CD, we will always have a strong capacity for mindless and spammy gameplay.

I do not foresee them instituting slot-1 cooldowns or skill-rooting-on-skill use nor do I see them removing the auto-attack feature. Due to these factors we will always have a measure of spam-heavy combat.

However, in order to keep auto-attacking from being the most optimal way to do combat, we need to make sure that the other utilities and weapons skills available to a player are more lucrative and more situationally effective.

It is fine for auto-attacks to have conditions (or other effects on them for that matter), as long as their usefulness doesn’t exceed optimal situational circumstances- like other weapon and utility skills.

If an auto-attack’s effectiveness grows to exceed situational usefulness, any auto-attack whether they have conditions on them or not will be spammed in a “mindless” unskilled manner.

Thanks Jon for joining our discussion about mesmer class.
Lots of good ideas to improve the scepter weapon from posts before me.
Just want to add my contribution on this topic.

Scepter is a unique weapon we have because its capability to generate clones (our precious resource) on AA.
But here also lies the problem. The only effective way to make use of the clones is through clone-on-death traits.
In princple, clones created can be use for shattering, but because AA slow attack speed and scepter clones attack at range. All this makes it less effective for a quick, on-demand burst (as opposed to Sword clones).

So in my opinion, all those weaknesses scepter has:
- slow attack speed
- scepter clones are near to useless
- single-target nature (like Jon mentioned)

These are different symptoms of the core issue the scepter has: its low versatility.
Scepter is currently pigeonholed into clone-spammer condi builds only (where it’s quite good, i might add).

So in order to address this and make scepter more worthwhile for a more variety of builds out there, here’s my suggestion, it might be OP and need some balancing, so here’s just a concept:

Ether Clone will spawn not only Scepter Clone, but also other types of clones as well:
has 25% chance to spawn one of the following types of clones instead of scepter clone:
- sword clone (clone that uses sword AA chain)
- spawn a staff clone (clone that casts Winds of Chaos)
- spawn a greatsword clone (clone that casts Spatial Surge)

Otherwise, just make Ether Bolt and Ether Blast combo finisher: projectile (20% chance) then I’m happy.

Pyroatheist.9031:

The scepter autoattack SHOULD have a unique aspect that the clones can inherit.

The scepter autoattack SHOULD NOT have a condition.

If I may protest…

If the scepter is going to be a condition weapon, it must deal condition damage for the Mesmer’s autoattack. Giving a condition damage weapon a direct damage autoattack is flawed design, since it splits your damage stats. If the direct damage and condition damage are approximately equivalent, it forces the player to use hybrid stats, thus taxing their attribute points and reducing stat diversity. If one is more potent than the other, the vestigial condition/direct damage is just a liability, not an asset.

The spammy part of gameplay you mention only occurs if the autoattack vastly exceeds the rest of the weapon skills. I fully agree with you that such a style is simply boring and lacks skill, and the clones shouldn’t be simple condition spammers. But it won’t become skillful by declaring condition damage on the autoattack an invalid design, just further hamper the weapon from fulfilling a clear and distinct job.

The autoattack could have trigger effects (inflicts a damaging condition if the enemy is attacking, or a debuff if it is not), an emphasis on deception (if the enemy is targeting you, you gain protection and regeneration during the channeling, but if it is targeting someone else you inflict confusion), or sacrifice damage for pure control (confuse→weaken→blind for the autoattack chain). But it should NOT stop fulfilling its tactical purpose. If the scepter is a condition damage weapon, it needs to deal condition based damage. And it it’s going to deal direct damage, then confusion and torment would have to be taken away, which would be a shame.

Forcing hybridization on our weapons when we only have one ranged main hand choice is bad design. If we had a condition onslaught whip and a direct damage mainhand pistol, then sure, go nuts. But we don’t, and thus we can’t afford to pidgeonhole the scepter with a stat split.

simple fixes

1) scepter auto attack – add some condition to it and increase the speed
2) make the torch phantasm anything other than what it is, you will make it better (maybe produces a duplicate of yourself -Doppleganger-. It dodges, hits hard, etc, keep it inline with the prestige, something flashy, or maybe a teleporting burn/explosion who teleports on you
3) give us an option to meld our shatters into niche builds (add torment to each shatter) or poison, or some condition “Your shatters now inflict poison”
4) fix sword 3 leap terrain issues! <3
5) buff chaos armor to guaranteed protection! It really needs some more oomph
5) make staff attacks slightly faster, and remove the vuln as a condition, ANYTHING is better than that!

—new elite skill— something that forms you, an exact clone, that nobody can tell the difference of. This only lasts for 10-15 seconds.

I use scepter in a power/phantasm build. I don’t mind the condition damage parts of the weapon. The confusion is only doing 360 per skill use, but it’s helping to cover a few other conditions. The torment does between 1800 and 3600, but it’s very useful for me because opponents are almost always chasing me on the battle field.

The reason I’m using the scepter is that I’m focusing on fighting from range and staying mobile. Ideally, there would be a main-hand, ranged, power-focused weapon, but I’m actually fine with how well scepter fills my needs. But it would be a bummer for me, if it was changed to a condition-only weapon.

JonPeters.5630:

I think we have a pretty good understanding of the mesmer scepter auto attack problem. I would really like to design a chain of auto attacks here that end with something good, and then allow the clones generated from scepter to also do that thing. That being said, we are trying to avoid just condition spam overload with that weapon because that would be greatly compounded by clones spamming as well.

Just as a suggestion to throw out there… Why not let the clones summon clones? Would prob be hard to program, and lots of crashes to work around. xD

But it would make on clone death traits amazing! The utility of having consistently refreshing clones alone would fit in with the tricky kind of play your looking for. Maybe buff the “on death” trait ranges a little bit. Condi spam would be fairly avoidable being territory (being by each clone) but be strong enough to incorporate for builds, and utility to play with. Auto attack Would suck for phant but it already does so nothing new.

Hi,
fist of all i want to thanks Anet for the direction taken with this patch and for the discussion related the trait change they have started with community.

I play since 10 years and i know balance is an hard and long job and i appreciate the way Anet is facing it now with us.

I also want to apologize for my English, i know it’s not perfect i just hope to make you understand my point xD

Basically i’m agree with trait change and about scepter autoattack and other stuff people has said till now.

I just want to add a point about mesmer based upon my experience with it (nerding around 3k\played xD).

Speaking on tpvp side the main issue about mesmer build diversity i’ve found is about the lack of an istant on demand immunity outside illusionary persona trait.

I know we can use distorsion even without illusionary persona but that put mesmer in the condition of being dependent on illusion even when illusion die for aoe or you have to shatter them for another reason (for example cond removal of inspiration line).

This is a big issue, after a lot of testing i’ve found that actually i’ve more survability with illusionary persona and just a nullfield than having more remove condition from inspiration line and NO illusionary persona (that’s even facing an high cond spammer like necro).

Point is that illusionary persona grant also us 1 of the best burst mesmer has, so goin deep on illusion seem to be the more productive than standing on other line.

My idea is to move a part of illusionary persona trait from the trait itself to the base class mechanic.

Im goin to use some semplified math to explain it better:

NOW:

NO illusionary persona trait:
mind wrack n * damage
cry of frustation n * confusion stack duration and n x damage
divesion n * daze duration
distorsion n * 1 second immunity

where n = number of illusion

WITH illusionari persona trait:
mind wrack (n+1) * damage
cry of frustation (n+1) * confusion stack duration and (n+1) x damage
divesion (n+1) * daze duration
distorsion (n+1) * 1 second immunity

where n = number of illusion

My idea is basically to do something similar anet is goin to do with ele and thief, moving the “+1” factor from illusionary persona to base class mechanic while reducing the 25% of the no traited damage and the 25% no traited confusion\daze\immunity duration. Then Illusionary persona trait should become something like “add 25% more dmg and duration to shatter skill”.

On simplified math side, MY IDEA is:

NO illusionary persona trait:
mind wrack (n+1) * (0.75 * damage)
cry of frustation (n+1) * (0.75* confusion stack duration) and (n+1) x (0.75* damage)
divesion (n+1) * (0.75 * daze duration)
distorsion (n+1) * (0.75 second immunity)

where n = number of illusion

WITH illusionari persona trait changed (add 25%):
mind wrack (n+1) * (0.75+0.25 from illusionary persona) damage
cry of frustation (n+1) * (0.75+0.25) confusion stack duration and (n+1) x (0.75+0.25) damage
divesion (n+1) * (0.75+0.25) daze duration
distorsion (n+1) * (0.75+0.25) second immunity

where n = number of illusion

the (0.75+0.25) factor become 1.

The goals of this change are:

1) shatter build (30 illusion with illusionary persona) dont change at all respect not, they will do exactly same dmg, confusion, daze and immunity duration they do now.

2) No shatter build (no illusionary persona) with 3 illusion up will do exactly same dmg, confusion, daze and immunity duration they have now with 3 clone up but they’ll gain the option of having a base distorsion of 0.75 sec.

In my opinion this will free mesmer from the need to have illusionary persona in 90% of tpvp build and would be the best way to promote mesmer build diversity.

Sorry again for my english.

Shriketalon.1937:

Pyroatheist.9031:

The scepter autoattack SHOULD have a unique aspect that the clones can inherit.

The scepter autoattack SHOULD NOT have a condition.

Forcing hybridization on our weapons when we only have one ranged main hand choice is bad design. If we had a condition onslaught whip and a direct damage mainhand pistol, then sure, go nuts. But we don’t, and thus we can’t afford to pidgeonhole the scepter with a stat split.

All that’s only true is hybridization truly is weaker. That’s a big claim, and I challenge you to support it.

I offer my rebuttal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8td7XyA1JU&feature=youtu.be

I didn t understand if illusionist celerity is moving to master minor or to master…..

Because if it will go to master, won t be a buff and it will force phantasm mesmers tochoose between illusionist celerity (obvious choice) and phantasmal haste, making the trait line even worst.

If it s on master minor its a strong buff or should i say a nerf half reverted?

(read it better it says 15 points for new IC so its a buff).

Any chance that they remove clone generation from scepter autoattack? As a phantasm mesmer that is the issue that troubles me the most. Ideally they should also remove wierd thing that first attack needs to be finished in order to fire the second one. they can add some condition application on the chain, so scepter can stay as a weapon for both power and conditions mesmers.

Sorry for my English

As an avid Illusionist, I love these changes, gives variety to support Mesmer’s while giving buffs to our illusion summoning skills, can not complain. But with buffs to support(Inspiration) Mesmer, Can the Torch Weapon for the Mesmer be looked at! Change the prestige combo finisher blast to beginning of the cast rather than at the end. Because with Prismatic understanding, timing a good prestige into say chaos storm or even null field doesn’t feel solid. Timing can be off, esp in the heat of battle. But with the changes to the illusion summoning skills, this may pull people away from 30 in chaos. but at the same time with the buff to 25 in chaos it may keep people in it.
All I’m asking is for a change to the prestige, it would make it more fluid. Say throwing down chaos storm weapon swapping to sword/torch using prestige gaining aoe chaos armor for the 3 secs, and combo leaping for your own personal armor. Idk with the buffs to being an inspiration Mesmer, aoe chaos armor is inspirational in team fights, and In zergs. I feel as though it would make Mesmer’s use torch less like an escape mechanism and use it more offensively for say a blast finisher.

@Xaylin.1860

I might have went too far about Decoy. I retract [drop stunbreaker] part. I still want to move Decoy from 40 to 45 (stupid chat filter indeed).

My problem is not with Decoy in isolation; it is Decoy + Blink combined. Two very powerful defensive utilities, both stunbreakers, both give us high utility. They are that good combined, that they mask some problems mesmer has (simply because you have one utility slot if you use both; also, I didn’t realize why Sc/Sw has no defenses until I dropped Decoy). So, one wants both for full defensive efficiency, which hits build diversity. And then one applies F4 shatter and other defenses from weapons I wrote in the previous post.

Blink has a counter – enemy mobility. Even fully traited Blink is a 32s 1200 range teleport (which is nothing compared to warriors or thieves). Except staff, we don’t have mobility tools to take advantage of that. So, Blink can be countered (by more mobility). As for now, there is no “hard counter” for stealth, as it stands.

It is not that I consider 1.5s more of stealth per minute to be OP. I consider more availability of stealth and stunbreaker on-demand to be OP. For example, if Decoy was 6s of stealth with recharge 60s, it would be weaker from my point of view (even if it had much more stealth in minute). In the same time, 2s of stealth on 27s cooldown would be stronger.

In team fights (3-4 vs 3-4, for example) I didn’t use Decoy to stealth for 3-4s. I used it to drop target off me and reposition, to “shed aggro”, to speak. The more stealth I have, the less tanky I can be and the more I can focus on killing enemies.


Experimental build example for teamplay (to show what I mean):
Sc/Sw + Sw/T, 10-20-0-25-15, Berserker > Soldier, Traveller runes, [Blink Decoy ? MassInvis], 2* Sigils of Energy, 2* Sigils of Force.

- traited phantasms (+30% damage, Fury, regeneration if close), iSwordsman 1/12 seconds, because of x/Sc Sw/x I have stat bonus from traited sword in both sets.
- Decoy 32s, Blink 40s, Torch4 30s
- Inspiration10 as main condition removal; combine with mantra heal to get more condi removals (stealth lets us recharge mantras safely and phantasms will fight for us)
- baiting blocks (when I see AoE circle, am not focused and am in Sc/Sw, I go inside and use blocks for damage. This will kill phantasms, but probably enemies killed them with AoE anyway)
- whenever I get focused, go stealth. MassInvis if it gets really bad / ally is downed.

This is what I mean: it may not be the best build, but it is easy to play, has lots of defenses and lets me shed aggro. Gives me 2 stunbreakers, high availability of stealth, high damage. The harder it gets, the more Soldier > Berserker I would use. Note: this won’t work in 10 vs 10, but will in 3-4 vs 5-6. Bonus points if I get stun or boonstrip at ? utility slot. This allows a very passive play (avoid combat, cast phantasms) and if I go Soldier, it is very hard to destroy.


The buff to Chaos25 doesn’t matter, true. Yet the buff will improve something which does not need improving, while there are other things for which improving would be better. I mean, ANet designed the game in a way that bunker doesn’t really lose condition damage (3 offensive stats for power, 2 for condi and only one is available in equipment in sane amounts). Why buff it?


Mender Purity buff is very powerful and I consider it to be a good buff. Might be too strong, but this one I like. We will know when it hits :-). Condition removal is an area we are very weak in right now, after all.


About utility slot to interrupt… I don’t want another Mantra of Distraction. I want a skill which interrupts and if it interrupts, does something. I want it in Manipulations, as most Manipulations seem focused on a single target. I love Signet of Domination and if I get it, I trait it – 3s stun in 4 vs 4-5 lets my team cut an enemy to pieces. But it is not often worth it to use it as an interrupt. Mantra, on the other hand, is a perfect interrupt skill, but it does nothing more than apply daze (and is a mantra, which I dislike). Maybe you are right and if mantras were made nicer to use it would be enough.


Chaotic Interruption. As it stands, it competes with too good skills to stand on its own. Bountiful Interruption is far superior – it applies to a caster (so I can use food / equipment / runes to manipulate the uptime of might and other boons). In WvW, enemies tend to use Melandru+Lemongrass or other condition reducing tools. This means that effect applied to enemies will always be weaker than one to allies, as we can’t really control what happens to them. Something like “after interrupt, 2s of stun” on the other hand would be extremely overpowered. Maybe something with boon removal? Maybe guaranteed immobilize and chill? No idea, really. Especially as sPvP doesn’t have food and changes to this trait influences both sPvP and WvW.

Ohoni.6057:

I think we have a pretty good understanding of the mesmer scepter auto attack problem. I would really like to design a chain of auto attacks here that end with something good, and then allow the clones generated from scepter to also do that thing. That being said, we are trying to avoid just condition spam overload with that weapon because that would be greatly compounded by clones spamming as well.

What if it were a bouncing damage/heal? It would be a maybe 2-3 bouncer, like their other bounce attacks, that damages enemies and heals allies. The balance point would be that one Mesmer would generate negligible heals, but a Mesmer and three clones could deal decent healing to players near the target, especially if they geared for it. That could make for a solid Mesmer healer build.

I like where this is going, maybe not in this application/direct way but this could bring mesmers some more great support abilities that opens some new builds up or increases the effectiveness of the limited ones we have now.

selan.8354:

idk about the lots of roles. yes in spvp u got shatterer and phantasm builds, but mantra is not really viable due to the speed. u simply dont have thetime to recharge a mantra.
interrupt shutdown is very limited and i have never seen a signet mesmer ever…..

now yes in pve and spvp some of these builds work quite well i agree, but in wvw not at all.

shatterer barely works as the clones die before they actuall shatter, phantasms maybe get 1 attack off, but most of the time the heavy aoe in a zerg kills phantasms without them being able to deal dmg.
mantra…. i sometime use it for stability, but if i do so, i will give up most of my tagging tools. so far my only way to deal dmg are utilities.

wvw mesmers are lacking group dps. i would like to have a build again that deals enough dmg like glamour, that doesent require clones or phantasms.

i only play wvw and only vs zerg. if im on yaks escort duty then yes i could use my spvp build, but if there is a 40man zerg at the keep and the commander decides to push out, all a mesmer does is putting a veil down infront of the gate and then noeone need us anymore. and no i hate playing support builds. in none of the games ive played i ever played a healer or support, so thats not an option at all.

our roles have been taken away in wvw when confusion and immortal mesmer got nerfed to the round.

i would like to move away from the 1v1 stuff. no class in the game should have 1v1 skills only. especially a light armor should have access to viable aoe. and i think the problem is ai. our class sould be less depending on how any clones are alive and phantasms being the main source of our dps…..
AI is terrible in wvw.

I 100% agree with you!

.
.

Asuka Shikinami.5462:

Hi Jon,

A little clarity on the issues with the scepter auto attack:

1) It’s too slow. The third part of the chain is slower than the other stages. The projectile is slow. The chain doesn’t progress until it the projectile hits. It’s just too slow.
2) The clones are useless. They do nothing but stand there and use a useless attack.
3) By using the auto attack, said clones then overwrite actually useful clones (staff/sword) and worse, phantasms. This means, in a phantasm or staff condi build using the auto attack can often reduce your sustained dps.

I 100% agree with you!

This is one of the reasons I do not use the Scepter.

.
.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I’ll use Chaos Armor for example, it’s an almost Mesmer-exclusive aura that has the potential to be a fantastic control/support ability and yet it’s (the Ethereal + Leap/Blast Combo) always been relatively lackluster…. and then it got nerfed. The bright colors and pulsing orb are great for impressing noobs, but the truth is that Chaos Armor doesn’t offer any kind of safety or damage mitigation on cast; it only offers the chance of getting protection after taking a hit or two. (And even then the odds are stacked against you. Regeneration and to a lesser extent Swiftness offer VERY little possible damage mitigation. 1 stack of confusion is pointless, …

I 100% agree with you!

Hopefully just deal damage with the bounce so we don’t have a one handed Staff (although technically that is what a Scepter is meant to be in GW2). I’d rather see something more in between Staff and Greatsword on the Scepter, personally.

• Protected Mantras
  was useless before, is still useless and moved to master tier …
  Let’s assume I’d have 2000 defense. Getting 600 toughness while casting would make an effective reduction of 23% … it’s not even protection. Since it’s master tier now, make it Aegis or Stability with a reasonable duration (3s) and reasonable CD. Remember that even if it’s grant you perm stability you’d still have the aftercasts and would constantly busy with casting.
• Mantra Mastery
  Well, I think this is meant to make mantras a bit more attractive. Don’t think it’ll work but those with PvE mantra builds might like it (I’m not sure if it’d change anything for me)
• Mender’s Purity
  Interesting change, but as mantra user this already was pretty strong. Now I’ll be at 3 heals and 4 conditions removed with a 12s cycle.
• IC
  This is also an interesting change. I might test 0/20/0/30/20 now (instead of my current 10/20/10/30/0). It’ll lower my phantasms’ strength, but increases recharge and atkspeed. I’d also lose the auto-regen, power and boon duration. The first 10 points in illusions is pretty much pointless for non-shatter builds like mine, but I’ll test it.
  Why is a phantasm trait in the shatter line anyways? …
• Scepter
  Since most are not satisfied with it, the question is if you’d be willing to sacrifice the clone generation of its autoattack. I don’t know if some shatter builds use it at such. But creating low-hp, long range clones next to the target is questionable anyways.
  As a complete rework, I’d probable remove the casttime of the last hit (#1-3) and give it [Combo: Projectile finisher], which is inherited by the clones. As compensation the #2-2 skill would need to create a clone, too.
• Mimic
  It is indeed rather misused as originally intended. Maybe give us a third utility phantasm/clone. And to combine it with the word “Mimic” … “Creates a phantasm/clone which looks like your opponent (even to his teammates) and attacks it with its own #1”.
  Or “Creates a clone of yourself which attacks with your #1. All damage dealt to it will be copied to its target”.
• Confusion and Retaliation
  Increase their damage in PvE to 300~500%

Skills:

• Chaos-Armor:
  Chaos-Armor grants you swiftness.
  As long as Chaos Armor lasts, 50% of the incoming damage is reflected back to the attacker.
  In addition to that, every second you regain 5% of your total health.
  As long as Chaos Armor lasts near enemies will be pushed back.

• Mimic:
  3 Chaos-Orbs appear and clockwise rotate around the Mesmer for up to 5 seconds.
  When hit, each Orb will absorb the incomming damage, and reflecting it back to the attacker.
  Each Orb can reflects back the damage only once, and will be destroyed afterwards.
  As long as at least 1 Orb is active, the Mesmer receives Regeneration.

• Confusing Images -> Chained-Junction:
  A Chaos-Chain links the Mesmer to an opponent for 6 seconds. During this time the opponent suffers x damage per second.
  In addition to that the opponent‘s speed is reduced by 60%, and the Mesmers speed is improved by 30%.
  Every enemy touching the Chaos-Chain also receives damage and gets their speed reduced by 60% for 3 seconds.
  Chained-Junction can not be removed.

I also would love to see some skills like this:

• Teleportation:
  Manipulation
  Teleports you in the direction you are moving (range 900).
  When standing still you teleport backwards.
  Also removes all crowed controll effects.

• Mass-Sleep:
  Manipulation
  Nearby Enemies fall into deep-sleep for 5 seconds.
  The effect also breakes after the enemy suffers damage, equal to 7,5% of his maximum health.

• Chaos-Orb:
  Manipulation
  Summon a Choas-Orb, that shoots up to 10 Chaos-Beams onto enemies within a range of 900. There can be up to 3 Chaos-Orbs at the same time.
  Lasts up to 12 seconds.

• Chaos-Shackle:
  Manipulation
  Applies Chaos-Shackle for 10 seconds.
  Causes movement to deal damage to the affected enemy and to all nearby enemies.This effect can be triggered up to 4 times. Chaos-Shackle can not be removed.

• Chaos-Touch:
  Manipulation
  Applies Chaos-Touch for 10 seconds to an enemy, suffering x damage over 10 seconds.
  Furthermore, Choas-Flashes, like the ones from a Tesla inductor, jump onto opponents within a range of 450, causing damage as well.
  Chaos-Touch can not be removed.

Traits:

• Phantasmal Healing:
  When using GS for example, you will not receive Regeneration, as your Phantasms mostly are to far away from you. So why not change it to this:
  You and your allies are healed by x% of the damage done by your Phantasms.
  Critical hits of your Phantasms grants you and your allies Regeneration for 5 seconds.
  Range 1200

Azathoth.2098:

Skills:

• Confusing Images -> Chained-Junction:
  A Chaos-Chain links the Mesmer to an opponent for 6 seconds. During this time the opponent suffers x damage per second.
  In addition to that the opponent‘s speed is reduced by 60%, and the Mesmers speed is improved by 30%.
  Every enemy touching the Chaos-Chain also receives damage and gets their speed reduced by 60% for 3 seconds.
  Chained-Junction can not be removed.

• Mass-Sleep:
  Manipulation
  Nearby Enemies fall into deep-sleep for 5 seconds.
  The effect also breakes after the enemy suffers damage, equal to 7,5% of his maximum health.

• Chaos-Orb:
  Manipulation
  Summon a Choas-Orb, that shoots up to 10 Chaos-Beams onto enemies within a range of 900. There can be up to 3 Chaos-Orbs at the same time.
  Lasts up to 12 seconds.

• Chaos-Touch:
  Manipulation
  Applies Chaos-Touch for 10 seconds to an enemy, suffering x damage over 10 seconds.
  Furthermore, Choas-Flashes, like the ones from a Tesla inductor, jump onto opponents within a range of 450, causing damage as well.
  Chaos-Touch can not be removed.

Traits:

• Phantasmal Healing:
  When using GS for example, you will not receive Regeneration, as your Phantasms mostly are to far away from you. So why not change it to this:
  You and your allies are healed by x% of the damage done by your Phantasms.
  Critical hits of your Phantasms grants you and your allies Regeneration for 5 seconds.
  Range 1200

Some very interesting changes, Sounds rather Shadow priest inspired.. Especially like the phantasmal healing, but it would be a great change if they could adjust the healing not to be too OP.

The application of a DOT that is not a condition also sounds extremely appealing, similar to the Guard greatsword pull, that is a DOT as well

I wonder if Arenanet is aware of Mesmer build diversity atm :/.

Jon mentioned only shatter, phantasm and mantra. Where is the lockdown and condition? Or even bunker and support :o.

I hope he simply forgot, because if they aren’t aware of other builds, well, it would have a negative effect on my trust for them to change Mesmer properly >__<.

*Blink should be a 2nd time castable for going back where you were before.

*Elite: Mesmerizing Gaze – You and your target are stunned and dazed for 6 sec. If one is able to remove the stun / daze, the other will loos this stat too.

I suppose I’d better toss a few ideas in the mix.

1.) RE: Mesmer condition pressure.
I’ve said for some time now, that an interesting change could be to alter Mental
Torment to apply the Torment condition in lieu of a straight DPS increase. This
would shift Mind Wrack more towards being a Shatter usable for all types of
Mesmer.
Also, is it terribly impossible to alter or add a Trait that allows for Confusion on
Interrupt? This serves two purposes: 1.) It allows for the modification of the much-
maligned Runes of Perplexity into a Confusion-booster, instead of a Confusion
applier. 2.) It would also grant a bit more controllable condition pressure to
Mesmer condition builds. As it is now, Confusion is the only directly controllable
Condition that we can apply – the rest are random, (or crit-derived, in the case of
Bleeds via Sharper Images Trait.)
Winds of Chaos. Yes, that Vuln needs to go away. Its replacement honestly
doesn’t even need to be a “damaging” Condition, merely something that at least
synchronizes with Condition Damage in general. And as we both know, Vuln merely
strengthens Power damage.

My last idea goes with the dual nature of Mesmer as a Profession in general. Namely, that it would be interesting to see skills that have the inverse function of some of our pre-existing abilities. For example:

Teleport Error – This ability would teleport your enemy away in a random.
direction. Consider it a Manipulation, and the logical inverse of Blink.
Chronal Inversion – Three words. Inverse. Time. Warp. (Seriously, a “Slow Time”
technique not only makes logical sense, but could open up some very interesting
group combat tactics.)

I’m going to leave it alone at this point, since there are plenty more Mesmer players with interesting ideas. Thanks for your time and willingness to communicate.

Alissah.9281:

I wonder if Arenanet is aware of Mesmer build diversity atm :/.

Jon mentioned only shatter, phantasm and mantra. Where is the lockdown and condition? Or even bunker and support :o.

I hope he simply forgot, because if they aren’t aware of other builds, well, it would have a negative effect on my trust for them to change Mesmer properly >__<.

yup and also these 3 builds all dont work in wvw.

Advent.6193:

Also, is it terribly impossible to alter or add a Trait that allows for Confusion on Interrupt?

I had always felt that Confounding suggestions should do that, (then destroy perplexity runes). But maybe it’s just me.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Shriketalon.1937:

Pyroatheist.9031:

The scepter autoattack SHOULD have a unique aspect that the clones can inherit.

The scepter autoattack SHOULD NOT have a condition.

Forcing hybridization on our weapons when we only have one ranged main hand choice is bad design. If we had a condition onslaught whip and a direct damage mainhand pistol, then sure, go nuts. But we don’t, and thus we can’t afford to pidgeonhole the scepter with a stat split.

All that’s only true is hybridization truly is weaker. That’s a big claim, and I challenge you to support it.

Clarification: hybrids are not weaker. They are more demanding.

To run a successful hybrid build, the player must fulfill both high condition damage and high direct damage stats. That usually means running rampager armor, possibly with a minor mix of berzerker or celestial statistics to round things out, since that is how you achieve power, precision, and condition damage in a single package. Meanwhile, Anet says they want to make the scepter a “tricksy defender”, possibly with team support involved. Does that honestly sound like an all offense rampager weapon? If the weapon deals pure condition damage, it opens up more stat spreads. It will allow the mesmer to choose durability or healing power without sacrificing skill potency, or mix in precision to maximize sharper images synergy.

When Pyro describes the unskilled nature of play as a result of condition damage spam, I would assert that has more to do with the balance of the autoattack’s power as compared to the power of the rest of the weapon skills. If the autoattack is the best DPS on the weapon, the result will be spammy play regardless of whether it’s direct or condition damage based. But if the autoattack is less potent than the powerful weapon skill and requires some tactical bonuses to be fulfilled, the weapon can be more skillful without shirking it’s role as a condition damage device.

Hybrids are fine, if you have plenty of weapon choices. But we don’t, and that means our “tricksy defender” weapon which also happens to be our only ranged mainhand shouldn’t be forced into hybridization.

Edit: Rampager. Not rabid. Bah.

Alissah.9281:

I wonder if Arenanet is aware of Mesmer build diversity atm :/.

Jon mentioned only shatter, phantasm and mantra. Where is the lockdown and condition? Or even bunker and support :o.

I hope he simply forgot, because if they aren’t aware of other builds, well, it would have a negative effect on my trust for them to change Mesmer properly >__<.

If you were to read, just below that he includes lockdown and signet mesmers as less popular. As for your opinion of diversity, just because the diversity is there, doesn’t mean there’s viability. Yes lockdowns can be situational, ie. PvP, however they can be alot better. Support mesmer does exist, but why have a support mesmer when a guardian does a much better job?

The whole point of this thread is to discuss changes which can build upon and improve the diversity, making it more viable. Not defend shotty builds which ultimately, in it’s current state, lack.

JonPeters.5630:

Scepter is still missing something but we don’t want to overload the autoattack as we think that promotes more mindless play and are trying to move away from builds that focus so much on the “1” skill. I feel like that scepter should be the tricksy defender that can stop enemies from attacking and defend allies, but maybe it’s single target nature is keeping that from working.

I think the mindless play comes from having an auto-attack that’s better than anything else the weapon has to offer on skills 2, 3, 4, and 5 — so the Player thinks “better not use my other skills because it’ll break my awesome auto-attack chain and kill my DPS”. So it’s a balancing act between buffing skill 1 vs buffing skills 2+.

I’m not trying to preach here (especially to the game designer). I’m just offering my opinion on why adding a condition to scepter #1 might be “ok” if done right. Maybe reduce the power coefficient on the auto-attack (which is surprisingly high for a condition weapon) and add a condition rotation:

Chain 1 — vulnerability (whatever goes here will be clone spammed!)
Chain 2 — confusion or torment or cripple (very short duration)
Chain 3 — clone production

… OR …

Chain 1 — no condition (because it would be clone spammed)
Chain 2 — confusion or torment (higher duration than example above)
Chain 3 — clone production

Pyroatheist.9031:

The scepter autoattack SHOULD have a unique aspect that the clones can inherit.

The scepter autoattack SHOULD NOT have a condition.

I agree that mindless spamming is boring and it also is very annoying in case of AA with a HIGH amount of damaging conditions. However, an AA with 1 stack of a rather short condition (e.g. confusion 2-3s or burn 1s) on a three stage chain will not make it overpowered or spammy. It just keeps it from being useless and offers you something to do instead of running around like a chicken while your other skills are on cooldown. It just has to be balanced carefully.

So what do we got in GW2 which is not a damaging condition – I think we can agree that those are the biggest issue – and could be performed by the clones?

Non-damaging conditions

• Immobilize: Not going to happen. Ever.
• Cripple: Not seeing that either. It would also compete with Crippling Dissipation.
• Weakness: Maybe but does it fit? Competes with Debilitating Dissipation.
• Chill: Could work but might be too strong in 1vs1.
• Vulnerability: Got that on Sword. Got enough elsewhere. Please no.
• Blind: Not going to happen. Would be very funny though

Boons

• Protection: Self = pointless, area effect = too much. So no.
• Vigor: Same as above.
• Stability: Same as above.
• Retaliation: Self = maybe but weak, area effect = probably too much.
• Aegis: Too strong on the Mesmer himself.
• Regeneration: Would make Phantasmal Healing pointless.
• Swiftness: Meh, please no.
• Might: Self = Pointless, area = maybe. Very similar to Staff clones.
• Fury: Self = Maybe (bleed on crit), area effect = probably too strong.

Others

• Healing: Has been mentioned before. Would be nice. But very hard to balance. If the value was too small it would be pointless with just one clone. If it was too high it would be broken.

If you take existing mechanics into account there just isn’t much the Scepter clone could do. From my point of few, they could provide boons but most of them are either too strong or already covered. The same goes for non-damaging conditions. Do you have anything specific in mind, Pyro? I would really like to hear your ideas.