Guild Wars 2

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

The pressure this spec is going to give, will give so much room for passive defense that you practically don’t use any “Mesmer” mechanics. So here’s your chance to finally play mesmer without having to worry about losing or dying!!

Here I will create a guide for you, so you can watch movies while winning 1v1’s:

• Take Scepter / Torch
• Take some funny defensive amulet
• Take PU
• Take preferred signets and decoy (including Signet of the Ether) for max passiveness

Okay now we’re set up.

1. Spam 1 for clone creation and torment – after 4 seconds rotation of AA any class and build will kill you so stage 2 wont come. good luck with that
2. Let your target follow you and die, or let him stand there facetanking conditions
3. Use optional skills to gain stealth if you feel like doing something special
4. Destroy the pride of mesmer

i will correct you little bit

messiah.1908:

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

The pressure this spec is going to give, will give so much room for passive defense that you practically don’t use any “Mesmer” mechanics. So here’s your chance to finally play mesmer without having to worry about losing or dying!!

Here I will create a guide for you, so you can watch movies while winning 1v1’s:

• Take Scepter / Torch
• Take some funny defensive amulet
• Take PU
• Take preferred signets and decoy (including Signet of the Ether) for max passiveness

Okay now we’re set up.

1. Spam 1 for clone creation and torment – after 4 seconds rotation of AA any class and build will kill you so stage 2 wont come. good luck with that
2. Let your target follow you and die, or let him stand there facetanking conditions
3. Use optional skills to gain stealth if you feel like doing something special
4. Destroy the pride of mesmer

i will correct you little bit

Don’t be to rough with him, he mains thief. He’s prone to getting sour whenever anyone else uses stealth based defense. Heaven forbid anyone apply condition or direct pressure then go hide……

Hi there. Firstable sorry for my bad english
I just wanted to give my modest opinion about it.

I really feel disapointed about this possible change on Scepter Auto Attack. I’m disapointed because everything that make a Mesmer a mesmer is so far away from this build.

So before changing a spell. It should be better to help basics mesmers mechanics works with this scepter.
Like Shatter spell (F1,F2, F3 ,F4) and trait. With this good trait that deals bleed every illusions critic, scepter for sure need a faster Auto attack. But not a torment proc every Auto Attack.

Pu mesmer is already so strong in duel or even in 1vX. In tpvp and even more maybe in WvW. So passive gameplay, for so much results.

In my opinion condi mesmer just need some traits to change the use of F1. It needs a way to get aggressive by shattering even in condi.
For example, why not a trait that helps the F1 shatter to instantly deal all the potential condi damage on the target ?
Of course, it needs a lot of theorycrafting test to set the best rate. But i think the idea can be fine. Giving a way to use it’s clones, being active and not just clones spam, and be usefull in team.

And i really hope for a change like this. Play the mesmer mechanic, use the premade traits and spells. There are so much things possible to give a possible synergie to mesmer condi. I won’t play condi mesmer if he is that condi spammer. Even in condi, mesmer should be atypical, active and surprising

So for the proud of mesmers, i’ve voted no. And i hope others ’ll do it. And others ’ll find their way on another class.

Ross Biddle.2367:

messiah.1908:

i will correct you little bit

Don’t be to rough with him, he mains thief. He’s prone to getting sour whenever anyone else uses stealth based defense. Heaven forbid anyone apply condition or direct pressure then go hide……

Yes I main a Thief, haven’t played it much lately. And I mainly play S/P, and as you know this does not include stealth. I got bored by the stuck bug and other bugs related to teleports/Pistol Whip plus Immobilize.

So I play Mesmer 2x shatter a lot more, and I like playing a spec that rewards positioning and paying attention.

Looking at your replies, I take you are interested in finally trying to play mesmer when this AA torment patch arrives?

Yes.

This latest feature pack is not really about Scepter, but more about Mesmer condi builds in general. Prior to all these upcoming changes, I’m already stacking 5 Stacks of Torment, 10+ stacks of bleed, and perma burn on the opponent with a 0/4/6/0/4 Scepter/Torch + Staff IE build. This upcoming patch basically buffed all aspects of the Condi Mesmer, except confusion (they seem to want to keep confusion where it is).

Given the buff to MtD alone (assuming no change to the Scepter auto), the Mesmer can now potentially keep 8 stacks of perma Torment (5 from Illusionary Counter and 3 from Shatters – on a 4/4/0/0/6 build). The Scepter auto chain, given how slow it is, will add another ~6 stacks of consistent Torment (3 from the first 2 hits, and another 3 from 3 clones attacking once every 2 sec) if clones are left alive.

Taking MtD and the Scepter auto change, that’s potentially 14 stacks of consistent/perma torment! Yes, on a quick glance on paper, this may seem overpowered, but only under ideal dueling situations in which your clones are not destroyed and you land Illusionary Counter – and only if you camp Scepter. Why?

Both Illusionary Counter and the Scepter autoattack are single-target based Torment. In a team setting, you will hardly be using Illusionary Counter on just a single person – much less the person your team is targeting to kill. In addition, under a team setting, your Scepter clones from the auto are much more likely to be killed before they do much damage to said target.

Furthermore, given how slow Scepter auto is, you are still very vulnerable to being targeted and bursted yourself. So without MtD, that torment quickly diminishes in potential in group settings, esp. against AoE classes like Eles or Engis, or classes with strong cleaves (i.e. thieves, warriors, guardians) that will kill your clones before they even attack. To put in perspective, a condition nade Engi can stack up AoE bleed, vuln, poison, chill, and blind on anyone in seconds – the combination of the aforementioned being many times more powerful than just confusion + torment.

On a 1 vs. 1 situation on point, Scepter is still super weak if the Mesmer is to stay on point (except mid at Legacy of the Foefire). Why? Because if the opponent stays on point, there’s nowhere for the Mesmer to run, and all the clones will still summon at melee range and be killed right away by any cleaves/AoEs. The only difference the Scepter auto change will bring compared to now (not counting MtD) is a mere average of 3 additional stacks of torment from the first 2 hits of the auto – given how easily Illusionary Counter can be dodged.

The Mesmer fighting off-point is a different story. But hey, if using a berserker Shatter build against multiple targets while being off-point is a thing, why can’t using a PU condi build against a single target be a thing too?

So is the Scepter auto buff really as OP as people say? I don’t think so.

On the other hand, Illusionary Elasticity is the much bigger push for PU Condi builds. Prior to the IE buff, spamming Staff autoattack + 3 Staff clones let you keep perma burning and a good amount (7-10 on a single target in group situations, 10-17 on a single target solo/duel – no Krait Runes) of bleed stacks.

This is pretty strong, but still weak when compared to the AoE conditions that Necros and Engis can output in a group setting. With the buff, I’m looking at a potential 10-13 stacks of bleed on a single target in a group situation, and 13-20 stacks of bleed in a dueling situation (no Krait Runes).

This may seem extremely strong, but given Anet’s philosophy on Mesmer design (very strong against a single target, weak on AoEs and against multiple-targets), the changes on both Scepter and IE suddenly seem to make sense.

The way I see it, if you’re dumb enough to chase a thief between two points, you deserve to lose the match. If you’re dumb enough to duel a Mesmer off-point, you deserve to die.

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

So I play Mesmer 2x shatter a lot more, and I like playing a spec that rewards positioning and paying attention.

Then how come you’re against this change? If anything it does something to the endless Staff… oh wait no, IE is buffed, Staff-AA actually does significantly more damage than scepter AA both pre- and post-patch? Preposterous! :P

I think that scepter AA buff is ok but PU is way too strong and that is what needs to get nerfed massively.

PU condition mesmer is OP only in WvW roaming and dueling. I think that AA buff is good for PvP where stelth is not so good and PU is not used so much. In WvW where stelth is very powerful and PU is used alot the condition PU mesmer is way too strong and that AA buff is only making it worse there.

Just nerf PU.

NO.

It will promote low skill “I win” play by spamming the auto-attack. No other auto attack in the game game as strong condition as torment in it. It would be way too much if the clones summed Ether clone will also spam torment.

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

Ross Biddle.2367:

messiah.1908:

i will correct you little bit

Don’t be to rough with him, he mains thief. He’s prone to getting sour whenever anyone else uses stealth based defense. Heaven forbid anyone apply condition or direct pressure then go hide……

Yes I main a Thief, haven’t played it much lately. And I mainly play S/P, and as you know this does not include stealth. I got bored by the stuck bug and other bugs related to teleports/Pistol Whip plus Immobilize.

So I play Mesmer 2x shatter a lot more, and I like playing a spec that rewards positioning and paying attention.

Looking at your replies, I take you are interested in finally trying to play mesmer when this AA torment patch arrives?

Oh I see, you were more for the teleport/blind/interupt thief spam gameplay. Got it.

If by finally interested in playing Mesmer you meant have been playing Mesmer and only Mesmer sine launch, and maining scepter that whole time, then sure. The introduction of torment doesn’t change anything for me.

i at start said NO
but
i went to the mist to try to land full rotation with the scepter while dueling

i can assure you its hard 4 seconds so will it buff in pvp or roaming spec – NO
will it be more useful in group play – might yes if your AA will stack torment like any other profession which stack bleed/poison with AA (necro/warrior/thief etc)

p/d thief – base 4 seconds 1 stack of bleed – 140*4= 560 dmg mid activation so in 4 seconds its 2,240 dmg
s/x warrior – base 8 sec bleeding and cripple rotation = 100*8*2 = 1,600 dmg fast activation so in 4 seconds warrior can do 8 stacks of 8 seconds which is 6,400 dmg
sc/x necro – base 5 sec bleeding and poison rotation = 140*2*5+250*4= 2,400 dmg mid activation. so in 4 sec its around 3,000 dmg
sb ranger – base 3 sec bleeding – 140*3=420 dmg but fast activation so around 3,000 dmg in 4 seconds
p/x engi – base 2 sec bleeding aoe – 140*2= 280 dmg fast activation

mesmer scepter – the slowest activation rotation
1 full rotation which take 4 seconds will result in
a. first torment for 2 sec
b. second torment for 4 sec
c. clone which apply 2 sec torment

so potentially 8 sec of torment 100*8= 800 if not moving and 1600 if moving
which as you can see the lowest dmg from AA in 4 seconds and the slowest thus the most dangerous skill use

so maybe in pve area you can spam it or in zerg fight at close range to tag

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

Ross Biddle.2367:

messiah.1908:

i will correct you little bit

Don’t be to rough with him, he mains thief. He’s prone to getting sour whenever anyone else uses stealth based defense. Heaven forbid anyone apply condition or direct pressure then go hide……

Yes I main a Thief, haven’t played it much lately. And I mainly play S/P, and as you know this does not include stealth. I got bored by the stuck bug and other bugs related to teleports/Pistol Whip plus Immobilize.

So I play Mesmer 2x shatter a lot more, and I like playing a spec that rewards positioning and paying attention.

Looking at your replies, I take you are interested in finally trying to play mesmer when this AA torment patch arrives?

have you tried to land AA with scepter?

my main also is a thief and play all builds even when they weren’t so common

i can assure you that the AA torment wont be much QQ in pvp area

maybe in PU build while roaming . but fight against those build these days

pu got nerfed.. can the cry train stop now.

zaxon.6819:

pu got nerfed.. can the cry train stop now.

Obviously not! There’s still torment on scepter, burning on torch and confusion on … well… Engineers and Warriors, but nerf Mesmers!

Carighan.6758:

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

So I play Mesmer 2x shatter a lot more, and I like playing a spec that rewards positioning and paying attention.

Then how come you’re against this change? If anything it does something to the endless Staff… oh wait no, IE is buffed, Staff-AA actually does significantly more damage than scepter AA both pre- and post-patch? Preposterous! :P

One of the reasons I started playing Mesmer is because of the bad reputation of the Thief. Just like my last post got flamed because someone knew I was playing Thief.
I think the Thief is extremely fun to play, but I would never play P/D cheese for example. And I’m not a big fan of D/P either.

If I got beaten by a shatter Mesmer while playing a Thief, I never felt angry or raged because I knew that the player outplayed me. And at a certain point I felt I was not becoming a better Thief player so I wanted to try something different.

I don’t want the Mesmer to become the new Warrior. The new noob class everyone can play. I don’t mind that scepter is getting buffed. I do however find the idea behind this passive play mentality of some late skill changes to be extremely lame. And I don’t want scepter to become the next cheese spam condition hide in stealth spec. Just because I want to play as, and against fun builds. Not lame spam cheese!

Ross Biddle.2367:

Oh I see, you were more for the teleport/blind/interupt thief spam gameplay. Got it.

If by finally interested in playing Mesmer you meant have been playing Mesmer and only Mesmer sine launch, and maining scepter that whole time, then sure. The introduction of torment doesn’t change anything for me.

Well you surely can make anything sound bad.

But sure, you can try and “spam” pistol whip or even “black powder” and try to be effective. As you seem to like scepter so much, it will suit your playstyle!

messiah.1908:

have you tried to land AA with scepter?

my main also is a thief and play all builds even when they weren’t so common

i can assure you that the AA torment wont be much QQ in pvp area

maybe in PU build while roaming . but fight against those build these days

I have tried it all, and I don’t care if its effective or not. Thats the whole point isn’kitten

Why would Anet get away with such an easy way to buff a weapon??

Why won’t they actually fix it instead of adding some passive play to it… Like actually fixing the animation, cast time and projectile travelling time.

Anyone counted how many of YES and NO did the poll get?

who cares honestly. we get buffs people cry and talk about op nes already before its even done yet. before that for months we have been waiting for buffs. now u can see that pu is getting a harsh nerf. do u still dont want the scepter buff? seriously. we need and well deserve buffs, they obviously dont wanna buff confusion so now its torment…so what? we need this! we need at least something, but instead of testing it out first with the whole patch and everything u guys already panicing! seriously u wanna prevent us from ever getting out of the veilbot hole, well u are exactly doing that with a poll like this before the patch has even hit. u dont know how many other things anet will nerf. history has shown how they always give us a tiny buff somewhere just so they can nerf something else into the ground!
how about u wait before u panic!! and i alray know the pu and clone death nerf wont be the only ones, im sure they will add either a new bug or another buildbreaking nerf to that. but hey keep crying about oh we are now brainlessly op…….. and then when anet changes it because of your amazing poll u cry because we dont get any buffs!!!

AA torment is a bad idea for ANY class. NO.

NO. NO. NO.

selan.8354:

who cares honestly. we get buffs people cry and talk about op nes already before its even done yet. before that for months we have been waiting for buffs. now u can see that pu is getting a harsh nerf. do u still dont want the scepter buff? seriously. we need and well deserve buffs, they obviously dont wanna buff confusion so now its torment…so what? we need this! we need at least something, but instead of testing it out first with the whole patch and everything u guys already panicing! seriously u wanna prevent us from ever getting out of the veilbot hole, well u are exactly doing that with a poll like this before the patch has even hit. u dont know how many other things anet will nerf. history has shown how they always give us a tiny buff somewhere just so they can nerf something else into the ground!
how about u wait before u panic!! and i alray know the pu and clone death nerf wont be the only ones, im sure they will add either a new bug or another buildbreaking nerf to that. but hey keep crying about oh we are now brainlessly op…….. and then when anet changes it because of your amazing poll u cry because we dont get any buffs!!!

You want buffs and you don’t care how it affects the game overall?

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

selan.8354:

who cares honestly. we get buffs people cry and talk about op nes already before its even done yet. before that for months we have been waiting for buffs. now u can see that pu is getting a harsh nerf. do u still dont want the scepter buff? seriously. we need and well deserve buffs, they obviously dont wanna buff confusion so now its torment…so what? we need this! we need at least something, but instead of testing it out first with the whole patch and everything u guys already panicing! seriously u wanna prevent us from ever getting out of the veilbot hole, well u are exactly doing that with a poll like this before the patch has even hit. u dont know how many other things anet will nerf. history has shown how they always give us a tiny buff somewhere just so they can nerf something else into the ground!
how about u wait before u panic!! and i alray know the pu and clone death nerf wont be the only ones, im sure they will add either a new bug or another buildbreaking nerf to that. but hey keep crying about oh we are now brainlessly op…….. and then when anet changes it because of your amazing poll u cry because we dont get any buffs!!!

You want buffs and you don’t care how it affects the game overall?

Well the buff is happening. Whether you (or anyone) likes it or not.

PU and DD traits have been nerfed to compensate.

But Scepter AA is staying.

The problem is that this “buff” is inherently a band aid on the real problems with a scepter attacks, its incredibly slow projectile speed and pointlessly long casting time. It feels like I’m tearing my own arm off for that third AA. The only reason i can conceive for such an incredibly painful experience is to prevent faster clone generation. Being so slow one would think scepters should hit hard but by far it is the weakest AA in game bar none. It is still the only weapon in the Mesmer kitten nal that can hit over walls (which developers have never seemed fit to address ) and it hits like a kitten . Simply slapping on some torment in hopes some will camp this weapon long enough to see torment stack while removing potent certain clone on death traits in an effort to “balance” PU (whose problem was never conditions) seems hilariously shortsighted and inadequate. The real problem is making alternative builds better.

I want the scepter to be buffed but not in this way so s solid NO from me. What really upsets me is that PU and clone death traits are being broken because of the change (or for whatever looney-bin reason…)

But what I want to know just what is the solution for scepter then? I see a lot of No answers so there must be ideas floating around.

The scepter AA is terrible as it is now and I think the only buff it could really use is a speed boost. Clone generation is pretty much its purpose and I think adding torment is going to detract from that.

I wish they’d just scrap and redesign scepter. No matter how many uber buffs it receives, the attacks are all slow, clunky and not fun to use.

Something like this:

Scepter 1: Ether Bolt/Blast. Make it just like the downed state 1, Mind Blast – remove projectile, lower casting time, deals damage and applies a stack of confusion. If kept a chain, make it apply confusion, confusion, torment and NOT summon a clone on 3rd hit.

Scepter 2: This isn’t terrible I suppose, the clone summon on block always feels clunky to me though. Keep the block and torment, but trigger Chaos Armor on block instead of a clone summon.

Scepter 3: Confusing images – Summon a clone at the target location that casts Ether Blast.

IMO that addresses the biggest flaws with Scepter: The painfully slow projectiles and animations, and less than smooth feel. Plus, who hasn’t wanted the ability to pop a clone on a specific spot from range? This would be super fun to play and easier to balance.

@kodesh- no, no and no. Sceptre aa used to give confusion but that was apparently op so they removed it. Sceptre was always meant to be a condi-weapon with clone generation which is why it generates a clone even on its power-based attack. All sceptre aa needs is faster completion time (0.75-0.75-1sec) and/or slightly higher damage on each part of the chain to make it competitive with say necro sceptre. The 3rd part of the aa is just agonising due to the cast time.

Voted No!!!! for pvp reason.
Bored of low risk/good reward in this game…

Yes.
Staff clones deal at least the same damage (not halved by standing still) and PU will be nerfed to reduce survivability.
It might be a bit strong, but can be toned down by changing cooldown/attack speed of clones if needed.

keep crying… keep gettng nerfed.. people dont know when to stop flapping lips.

No, condi mes is already boring don’t make it better.

This thread is still going on?! Torment is staying they “balanced” it in traits…..

I have played a hybrid power/condi PU mesmer build that utilize scepter/pistol sword/torch and I would use scepter #2’s torment to it’s fullest with a sigil of torment on top of it. I can guarantee from having already experienced how strong torment on a mesmer build is very powerful, this is gonna break the balance FOR SURE.

This is gonna be an overpowered auto-attack (a freaking auto-attack that basically makes your enemy unable to move or waste all condi cleanse because torment’s damage is really high) and will be cancerous to any PvP game mode.

It will be abused by no skilled players and we will be back to square one with the cries to nerf mesmer once again putting back into a really bad spot which I absolutely do not want.

My vote is a clear NO. Please Anet, do not do this to mesmer. I do not want to see my class be overpowered like this.

Sorry for the delay!

UPDATED 9/3/2014

Now I’m really questioning my elementary math. o_O

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Sorry for the delay!

UPDATED 9/3/2014

Now I’m really questioning my elementary math. o_O

You’re a sicko!

/jk

Fay.2357:

Dirame.8521:

Fay.2357:

Please note that scepter clones only use the first attack in the chain. This is how it always has been, and how it always will be. The clones do not generate more clones. This would be incredibly broken.

Nothing in my comment says anything about clones spawning more clones. That’s not what self-perpetuating means in that comment.

I’m fairly sure that is what it means in that comment. They said you can put up one clone, then go to sleep while ‘self perpetuating clones’ do all the work. The definition of self-perpetuating is literally ‘creating more of oneself’. Therefor, I felt the need to clarify that scepter clones do not self perpetuate, on top of the obvious fact that scepter clones won’t do as much damage as staff clones do.

No. Self-perpetuating was in relation to torment and the clones renewing torment. Sorry if it confused anyone.

Mesmer Torment will be nasty. However, for people new to the class or fighting in WvW it will be a real boon. While I agree it will edge on OP, Mesmer needs an easy mode. If it’s too easy for you go play Shatter or Lockdown.

I support the Torment while acknowledging it will be pretty easy to play.

I think the point is that polls like this are harmful if they are done before the patch. This is because they incite people into rash postings about things they might not completely understand. Add in a few celebrities (helseth), and suddenly we have more nerfs because the community goes crazy and Anet feels they have to respond.

agreed. Although I don’t understand why Mesmers would cry about finally getting buffs, unless they actually play another class and are trolling.

Pro.

The reason is that a) I don’t think this is a huge deal by itself, say in a MtD build, only really with a PU build, and b) with DD/Clone Death nerfed and PU toned down I think this change is totally fine and not OP at all. I also don’t think this will promote passive play; as has been explained already nobody is going to win by trying to rely on scepter AA, and with the nerf to clone death I don’t see PU condi doing anything with this AA buff besides running around not dying and not killing anyone ever. Any non-PU build could use a buff like this so it’s great, and any non-PU build is not passive play, say MtD for example.

PU clone death builds were the problem with this change, now those are gone (with some collateral damage, unfortunately, but omlettes and eggs and all that :-/ ).

YES.

The Scepter has been a step-child of a weapon for too long. It had a power based auto attack and condition based other skills that made it lackluster. It becoming a viable option gives us a second 1handed MH item that you’re not laughed at for using except in specific sPvP builds.

Torment is an excellent option to add and is in line with faster weapons that can spam bleed. It fits well into the Mesmer play style.

Whether or not the ‘condition meta’ is an issue doesn’t mean Mesmers should maintain a subpar defunct weapon.

This won’t end up well for us…
It’s going to be the confusion nerf all over again…

Confusion = punish people for attacking/not attacking
Torment = punish people for moving/not moving

On auto attack.

Honestly, if we had a faster scepter scepter animation MtD might actually be able to push out decent stacks of torment. Maybe a little bit slower than guard’s scepter but faster than necro scepter.