Guild Wars 2

For a long time there have been a ton of negative things to say about the Mesmer Staff. I see this changing more and more (I think Natsu’s Blackwater build has helped much in this regard), but there are still a lot of nay-sayers and misconceptions about it. In addition the Mesmer Staff is used many times as an alternate not the primary. I’ve been using the staff since shortly after launch and have never found it boring, weak, or underwhelming. I’d like to talk in great detail on what makes the staff so good; I will discuss some common misconceptions and try to illuminate its virtues because I feel the staff goes well with the mesmer for many reasons.

I’ve never heard the Mesmer described better than Mr Prometheus in his Comprehensive Mesmer Guide p1: “From a design and flavor perspective the Mesmer is a Wizard that uses deception and chaos to gain advantage over their opponents. Much of the Mesmer’s gameplay is about distracting your opponents from attacking you directly and causing confusion and uncertainty.” The staff has so many utilities that do exactly this. It is the perfect weapon themed for the class. This does not mean everyone should salvage their GS’s and 1H swords, those are wonderful high burst weapons. But what they gain in damage they lose in nuance and complexity.
Mr Prometheus also says that the class is largely misunderstood. I think that while this has largely been corrected by time there is still too much about the staff that is either not known or judged incorrectly. Much of the player base’s learning and progress on mesmer builds are in the damage, phantasm, and shatter directions. All viable, all suitable to the class. But by no means more powerful or better in PvE, sPvP, or WvW.

At the end of the post I will give my build and detail it out for everyone. It is called the Maniac Magician. Lets talk about the staff.

First of all let me clear something up about damage in this game as a general rule. Just because it is the popular thing does not make it the BEST thing or the ONLY thing to do. If you want a short fight where either you die or the oppenent dies in a very short amount of time that’s wonderful and exciting and go you. However, as in most things there’s a skillful, cerebral, tactical, reactionary way to contrast with the brute way and still handle every situation in this game. You do NOT have to match someone’s max dmg output in order to compete. You do however have to avoid enough of their hits to bring their dmg down to a manageable lvl if you are going to have a lower dmg out put. It’s totally wacked and un-orthodox but for some reason what the staff lacks in high burst it regains in dmg reduction methods. Isn’t that just bonkers I have never been able to figure out why Anet did this? Alright sarcasm aside it’s very true. Now lets get back to the staff.

I. dmg misconceptions
A. The so-called Utilities of the staff are not strong. I have two answers for that.

(1) I hear this alot and it is simply not true. After some questions I find the people who say this have only tried the staff for a short time. Guys nothing worthwhile in this game will come to you immediately. It takes practice and a completely different kind of skill. Do not listen to a GS or 1H sword Mesmer’s advice; he/she does not have the expertise to tell you how bad or good the staff is. It is a nuanced weapon. If you don’t use the nuance or haven’t learned what the nuances can do then it is simply lower damage than others. It takes a while to master. Much of the skill in GW2 revolves around avoiding dmg; dodging is the most obvious example. The staff gives you numerous tools to avoid dmg in addition to evading, many of which simultaneously punish your opponent. It has a bit of a higher learning curve and requires direct and immediate awareness of your situation. This is because everything on the staff is less offensive i.e. more reactionary. You use staff skills in response to something that was done to you. In this way it is very high action.

(2) Keep in mind this is a multipurpose tool for you and your TEAMMATES. You will be giving fury and might regularly to your allies simply from your auto attacks; this contributes to overall damage in a real and measurable way. Chaos Storm can help keep friends alive. When you have chaos storm around a downed player AND you pop chaos armor you can rez them through quite a beating. Everything it does is multi-faceted. Learn to take advantage of this. Options are the strength of the staff. GS builds often are accompanied by “skill rotation suggestions.” There should be no skill rotation past your initial set-up. From then on you act according to what is done to you. Because of the duality of what the staff does you will use the same skills for different reasons at different times. This is one of the reasons it synergizes with Mesmer so well (many of your other skills similarly have dual natures – Null Field for example).

B. Too low damage. I hear it called not viable to PvE and to PvP/WvW because of its damage.

(1) Is a bit lower but also is ridiculously constant, so it puts great pressure on your opponents. With the right setup and skilled use your bleeds and burns alone will add up to more than 2.5k per second. Once you have nice stacks of conditions and have had time for some skills to cooldown you can F2 shatter for some good high confusion burst and immediately bust out 3 more clones so your conditions don’t really sag. This may not sound as impressive as warrior hits (which can be huge) or thief back-stabs but you have to keep in mind this is very constant. Most builds will have an ebb and flow that the opponent can take advantage of with well timed heals. Mesmer staff conditions are withering. 2k damage per second adds up fast, and with your conditions doing the damage for you you should have all the time and presence of mind to expertly dodge/teleport/mitigate their damage to nothing. And this is all from just the staff, you will have of course a second weapon set to take advantage of. I will cover that in another post. Here I just want to focus on the staff.

(2) Is lower but b/c in pvp players will dodge much of the high bursts of other weapons whilst your opponent cannot dodge all the winds of chaos the damage becomes much closer. There will be Winds of Chaos flying all over the place, bouncing from clone to ally to foe in any order. No one will be able to dodge them all. Another strength this poses is the continual re-application of your condi’s. Most people I think compare the staff condition durations to the 30 second poisons of some other classes and find it underwhelming. Thing is 30 seconds of poison can be removed. Your conditions will be constantly re-applying. This will frustrate and confuse many of your opponents as their condition removals will feel wasted. These two facts are SO important when you compare the damage output of the condition staff mesmer to a berzerker GS mesmer. People like to compare theory numbers, but you have got to use actual combat data as well to get the whole picture.

(3) Is a bit lower but EVERY SINGLE THING IT DOES IS MULTIFACETED. I want to stress yet again that everything you do has a dual nature. That is one of the reasons even berzerker mesmers don’t match the damage of a berzerker warrior – even GS mesmers to some degree have a duality to them. Mesmer is all about doing something good for your team and bad for the other. Staff skills exhibit this to a very high degree. Every time you do something you are adding a boon to you and a condition to foe. You teleport backwards and add a clone who both distracts and does damage. You cannot expect it to match the damage of GS when it does 2 things at once. Realize and take advantage of this.

II. Staff requirements
Here I’d like to talk about some details of a staff-centric build – stats/mindset/etc

A) Patience. Gotta let your conditions do their job. Gotta let them build up in stacks. The staff can be a very high action weapon in a good fight, but the action is evasion and defense while the attacking happens almost by itself. This complete mindset change I think throws many mesmers off when trying the staff. You don’t make that change overnight. Blink, decoy, Prestige, and phase retreat are the main ways you will avoid damage, use your roll as sparingly as possible in order to always be able to up more staff clones. What you end up with is a set-up where the damage is almost fire and forget but the evasion (which is arguably a definitive measure of a player’s skill and effectiveness in GW2) is extremely multi-faceted and high-action. You will be one of the most mobile and hard to pin down opponents: 2 stun breaks, null field for condition removal (and boon removal of foe), 2 teleports (remember that phase retreat while not a stun break is instant cast and can be used when pinned down), and extremely high clone creation.

B) Stats. Because you need to take time to burn down your foe you need to survive. Toughness or vitality really helps, but mesmers do not have a tiny health pool so I prefer toughness. In addition Power is not helpful. I know this sounds like blasphemy but it is true. Power has very little to bring to a staff set-up. Precision on the other hand is extremely useful. You will need the vigor on critical hit trait, and you get lots of endurance for evasion and clone creation. Since staff cones are the most powerful clone and necessary for stacking your conditions you want 3 of them up as much as possible. Precision helps immeasurably. Condition damage is an obvious must, so with Precision and Condition Damage and Toughness Rabid gear naturally becomes the top (if not the only) choice for a staff-centric build. This seems limiting but the payoff is very worth it. The synergy is high: mobility, armor rating, and damage output are all taken care of in a fluid manner. When I say no power I very much mean it; I do not even put any points in Domination. I know the Blackwater build uses Rabid and has a staff. It focuses more on confusion than I do and puts points in domination. It is a great build and it got me using scepter torch as my secondary set. But unlike Natsu I focus on the Staff/Traveler rune side a bit more than the scepter/torch/Perplexity rune side. I use the scepter and torch and confusion and block and invis to put the fight on hold if I need to heal. I’ve got the highest respect for the Blackwater condition build, but I love staff and this thread is here to talk about a Staff-centric build.

C) Condition Duration. This is obviously not part of what the damage mesmers usually stack, and is important to note because it will take the place of things that many mesmers rely on and will not like to let go. Rare Veggie Pizza gives 40% condition duration, and the toxic crystal gives another 10%. Traveler’s Runes give 10% as well as the speed increase which helps in kiting. Over all a 60% duration increase allows you to stack your conditions much higher.

III. Build: I call this the Maniac Magician.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vgUQNAW7flknpUtNqxMNcrNiY6RwhcAHKFXX2VShtdhA-zQCBINCyk0Bi+AOHqIaslhFRjVdDTlSIVHLy+ACpkCYRlVA-e

I use this build in PvE, WvW, and sPvP. Every build has a hard counter that can wreck it in a duel. I want to stress that I play GW2 the way it was designed to be played: as a team. Solo roaming I think can be a lot of fun but is ultimately useless to spend lots of time on. Very little reward and no one to share your triumphs with. Not to mention this game is NOT BALANCED for 1vs1 PLAY making many of your wins silly to gloat over. So before all you yo-yo’s out there start wailing about how “anyone can just run from a staff build” remember that I expect anyone who’s seriously reading this to have teammates with them who can do hard damage burst to match your conditions and can CC while you have mobility; your teammates should balance out your weaknesses and you theirs. So here it is:

Trait Choices, Options, and Reasons

Dueling

Minor Traits

5pt – Critical Infusion: Gain Vigor when delivering a critical hit.
With boon duration this gets you 7 1/4 seconds of Vigor and is on a 5 second cd. Vigor will be necessary to maintain your distance from your opponent and for clone creation (you create a clone on dodge). This will help ensure you always can have 3 staff clones out.

15pt – Sharper Images: Illusions inflict bleeding on critical hits.
Your staff clones’ attacks will inflict conditions naturally because it is Winds of Chaos. However with this trait when they crit they will inflict an additional stack of bleed. Great for any mesmer build, but wonderful for a condition heavy build. Many times your staff clones will inflict 2 stacks of bleed at a time.

25pt – Confusing Combatants: Your illusions cause confusion to foes around them when they are killed. 1 stack of confusion doesn’t sound like much but your clones will die quite frequently (and be immediately replaced by you) so the confusion amount you get from this will be small but semi-constant, punishing your opponent for everything they do; also it will stack nicely with debilitating dissipation. Also when you have to roll to avoid a big burst you well might destroy a clone by creating another one. When this happens your clone “dies” and your dissipation traits kick in. Again a multi-faceted action. You avoid damage and inflict conditions simultaneously. In spite of what a great trait this is I do not take it. It is however a perfectly viable trait for this build. Instead I use the extra 5 points in Illusions to get Illusionary Elasticity.

Major Traits

I – Far Reaching Manipulations: The range of your manipulation skills is increased. Blink is an extremely useful skill for any mesmer build that kites. Staff usage demands you avoid as much damage as you can while stacking as many conditions as you can. With this trait Blink has a range of 1200, allowing you to put some real distance between you and your foe. Try to blink so that your clones are between you and your opponent so that they absorb damage meant for you.

X – Deceptive Evasion: Create a clone at your current position when you dodge. This is a no-brainer. The more staff clones you got out the easier it is to hide and the more damage you will do (from the conditions) so being able to create more simply by rolling is awesome. Also this way if you evade when you have 3 clones out already one dies and a new one is created. When the one clone dies your dissipation traits kick in for some extra condition stacks.

Chaos

Minor Traits

5pt – Metaphysical Rejuvenation: Gain Regeneration when your health drops below the threshold (75%hp). This essentially increases your health by 1876. That is how much health you gain over the 14 1/2 seconds of Regen you get when more than 25% of your health has been taken away. Can’t beat that for a minor trait.

15pt – Illusionary Membrane: Gain Protection when you gain Regeneration. While this does have a 15 second cd you will get regen from Metaphysical Rejuvenation, Chaos Armor, and anytime you go invis (due to PU). This will very much help manage any ill-timed bursts that you don’t evade.

25pt – Chaotic Transferance: Gain Condition Damage based on your Toughness (10%). This is simply another great way to increase your condition damage.
Major Traits
V – Debilitating Dissipation: Clones apply a random condition to nearby foes when they are killed. It is a random choice of 3 stacks of bleed for 8 seconds (3,079 damage total) or 3 stacks of vulnerability for 8 seconds or 4 3/4 seconds of weakness. I think this will be the most popular choice for the adept major trait slot because it helps with condition stacking. However I do frequently switch to both Illusionary Defense for some extra tankyness or Master of Manipulation which stacks amazingly with Far-Reaching Manipulations. All 3 choices here are fine.

X – Chaotic Dampening: Increased toughness while wielding a staff of trident. Reduces recharge on staff and trident skills (+50 toughness). This is an obvious must. All your staff skills will be reduced. But what I notice most while actually using this trait is the shorter Phase Retreat CD. Phase retreat is your most all purpose skill. With this trait and Illusionists Celerity from Illusions Phase Retreat will have a ridiculously short cd. Phase Retreat can be used while healing, while pinned down, as clone creation, as kiting. Its wonderful. With both cd traits you have it at a 6 second cd.

XII – Prismatic Understanding: Cloaking skills last longer and you gain a random boon when you are cloaked. Adds 1 second to durations and choice of Aegis, Protection or Regeneration. You get 1 of those boons every second you are invis, so they add up. Not only do you get the full 300 toughness from the Chaos trait line by maxing it out but this trait is wonderful for a mesmer. I know there are a lot of thiefs out there who wine and moan about PU mesmers but they need to get over it. As an Illusionist you’d expect the mesmer to go invis. Rangers can invis which fits most lore for them as well in the fantasy world. PU mesmers are not cheese, not cheap. Guys its a Grandmaster trait, and you have to use certain weapons and/or several Utility Skill slots to take advantage of a trait you already invested 30 trait points to get. Its not OP. Its hard to get, but extremely useful. Bosses will drop target of you when you invis and you will stay invis longer allowing you to res someone, run around a corner for regen, cast a heal, or a multitude of other things. According to Mr Prometheus’ definition of the Mesmer this is a perfect trait for any mesmer.

Illusions

Minor Traits

5pt – Illusionary Retribution: All Shatter skills inflict confusion (1 stack for 5 3/4 seconds). Not only does this double the power of Cry of Frustration but it makes all other Shatters as useful for a condition class as CoF was originally.

15pt – Illusionists Celerity: Reduce recharge on illusion-summoning skills (20%). This (along with Deceptive Evasion and PU) is one of the top traits for ANY mesmer. It affects so many of our skills. So many important ones at that. Most notably with a staff build it will stack with Chaotic Dampening to give a 40% cd reduction for Phase Retreat.

Major Traits

V – Master of Misdirection: Confusion you inflict lasts longer (33% increase). This further increases the power of Cry of Frustration first of all. Second with a condition staff mesmer your secondary set should be a scepter and torch. This trait and the minor trait that comes before it will make the confusion from both better. The block, confusion from confusion images and phantasmal mage are all great “oh $&!^” buttons to shut your opponent down for a bit while you heal up.

VII – Illusionary Elasticity: Bouncing attacks have one additional bounce. This is great for a staff wielder. I choose it instead of 5 extra points in Dueling to get Confusing Combatants. While this trait does not affect your clones you attack much faster than they do and the extra conditions or extra might/fury you stack with the extra bounce adds up fast. One subtle thing that most people wont think of is the extra bounce is also an extra chance for a critical hit which means and extra chance to gain vigor from Critical Infusion. Do not under-estimate the value in that.

Gear

Rabid stats on everything, already explained above.

Secondary Weapon Set – should be scepter torch. The extra invis from the torch and the extra confusion/retaliation from the torch’s phantasm are great. The Scepter can help make clones for a CoF Shatter as well as stack LARGE amounts of confusion and block putting Torment on your foe. These can be used to pump out a lot of damage, however since a smart opponent will not be using skill while stacked with confusion these two weapons make a break in the fighting where you can stop them from doing things and go invis to drop target while your heal cools down. Very useful in PvP. In PvE the blind from the scepter 2 is invaluable. Use with good timing (take practice but is totally doable) you can prevent an almost downed ally from getting the next hit allowing them to survive long enough for another roll or a heal. Confusion from this can be very high damage to PvE opponents and very predictable once you know their attack pattern. With a bunch of staff clones out stacking bleed and burn you can then switch to the scepter to add another several thousand damage. These two weapon sets (Staff and Scepter/Torch) compliment each other very well. Scepter/Torch however is difficult to use in a PvE setting and requires a bit of mastery. So a nice option is to use 1H sword/Focus instead. Lots of utility in there, and its much easier to master.

Runes – I use Travelers Runes. the movement speed alone makes them worth it but their normal bonuses are not bad either. With all the boons you add to a party Boon Duration is great. Same to Condition duration.

Sigils – Bursting on your Staff and Scepter and Energy on the Torch. Bursting is amazing. I used bleed duration sigils for a long time until i learned about Bursting. It adds an extra 100 Condition damage putting you at just above 1700. This means your conditions will be hitting extremely hard.

Last Thoughts
I think that about covers it. The Staff builds do have some weaknesses that I am sure people who reply to this post will point out and rage about. Keep in mind that NO build and NO class is without equivalent weaknesses. Staff builds are a lot of fun with high action and a high learning curve so you will not get bored quickly. Play with the traits and gear set-up frequently to A) make improvements based on your play style and to get a better idea of the value of what I have put down here today.

I’ve been wanting a balanced variation of trident auto attack and trident clones on mesmer staff since beta. I love trident so much, I wish I could say the same for staff.

Staff is just too slow in all aspects without a real trade-off, imo.

I also play the Mesmer primarily with the staff, because it has some advantages all other weapons don’t have (PvE):

• Clones every 6 seconds
• These Clones do not need an obstacle-free LoS to be created (this seems to be unique, but is only valid for Phase Retreat; eg. Clones from Mirror Images won’t be created when the LoS is blocked but just consume the cd)
• WoC and conditions from Clones too
• one can easily give the Staff Clone the initial aggro by teleporting out of one’s own WoC range, without the need to deactivate auto-attack
• due to these advantages some champions are easy to kite solo, though it takes a while, but it’s possible

There are several combinations of traits viable (in addition to the OPs), like

0/0/25/25/20 or
0/0/30/10/30 or
0/25/25/0/20 or
0/20/20/10/20

and with the upcoming feature patch maybe there will be even more.

Personally I won’t put 10 points into Domination but Inspiration, because I like better to run faster instead of the cripple effect, especially in longer lasting fights and against mostly stationary mobs.

Lanhelin.3480:

• due to these advantages some champions are easy to kite solo, though it takes a while, but it’s possible

This. You are able to solo those champs also just with a sword offhand with a block, or a scepter. The staff simply lacks in damage or attack speed. The basic attack requires either

• an additional bounce for free
• 50%-100% more attack speed
• simply more direct damage

Also Staff 4 and 5 are too weak imo.
Staff 4 is almost useless in PvE and meh in PvP / WvW especially since nerf. It should grant boons randomly when acrive, like staying in a CS.
Staff 5 just feels not offensive enough. The damage is laughtable and the conditions are lasting not long enough to be a threat. Only the daze is ok … in PvP / WvW. The defensive stats are ok too but I wish it would have again the Aegis on cast and all the other buffs random. It requires more damage, simply MORE DAMAGE!!! The whole CS hits the same as one tic of a staff ele 2! ONE TIC!!!

Um. Xy, Im gonna assume you mean Eles Lava Font (Fire 2) and thats really untrue. Chaos Storm hits for 3-4k in a power build. Each of the six pulses hits for around 600.

As for defense, no other Mesmer skill save for Blurred Frenzy comes anywhere close to Chaos Storm+Armor’s damage mitigation. The combination of weakness, blind,daze,aegis, protection and swiftness will protect you from ungodly amounts of pain, be it PvE or PvP. Whenever you drop Chaos Storm you should always be able to gain chaos armor while inside the storm.

:O made this same build minus the runes about 10 months ago. Then i realized that the bouncing trait didnt effect staff clones (which they are about to change). It was fun to troll with https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Kudos-to-a-mesmer/first#post1897505 it was tough to kill with without food and pre torment, but could be very viable even with the clones bugged. The condi duration food really makes or breaks the chances of being able to dps someone down.

I think i ran 10/15/15 boon duration 2/2/2 setup.

My standard build is staff and scepter/torch in PvE. Very similar. I use scepter/pistol as the alternative weapon set in PvP (I might to go scepter/torch in PvP but I need to play around a bit more – the easy interrupt with the pistol is seductive). I’ll have to look at my character exactly to determine traits. The Staff is an extremely nice weapon once you get used to using it. At first I didn’t think I’d like it because I thought it was weak also, but I think it’s actually a very strong weapon when used properly… I grew to love it.

This is almost the build I have been running for ages, and it’s fun and effective.

Only difference for my build is that I go a bit more hybrid than pure condition as I tend to equip either GS or Sw/P alternately to the staff (GS for major events and WVW zerging, Sw/P for solo Pve and WvW roaming).

Staff is my main weapon and I use a rampager staff as a bit of power helps out staff DPS a lot. Other than that, rabid armour except for soldiers chest and rampagers boots with travellers runes. Celestial ascended rings and amulet, soldiers ascended back, one ascended knights accessory and the other one is an exotic rampagers. Sword/ GS / Pistol are all beserkers exotics.

I need to work on replacing my Soldiers chest armour with Dire now that it is available. When I can, my last non-ascended accessory will be replaced with a rabid one instead of rampagers.

You wrote a lot of words and some of them were right.

I haven’t seen a staff Mesmer in T1 in about a month. There is a reason for that. There aren’t a lot of mesmers but they are all GS and sw/x

The melee train don’t care about your buffs when they are running 20 stacks of might and fury already. They don’t care about you bleeds they get cleansed instantly. Those warriors heal 400 hp/tick which is more than staff hits for. The melee train don’t want your chaos fields they want water and fire.

I like the idea of staff but the actuality leaves it completely on the sidelines.

So far I see some good responses here and I want to thank you guys for (mostly) not trolling and being ignorant. Got a couple of things to say.

1) I knew but had not really paid attention to the LoS not being necessary for Phase Retreat. That is a very very important thing to note as it affects aggro, Ether Feast, and Shattering. Tyvm for noting that Lanhelin.

2) To the people out there who think staff 4 and 5 are worthless: many many things become less worthwhile in a zerg. But in 5-10 group fights like almost all PvE and much WvW play (go havoc guys it aint all about the karma train) staff 4 and 5 are wonderful. They are not there as a cure all. Learn when to use them or stop talking about them as if you know. I use them to great effect so I KNOW they are good. Enough said.

3) This post is here to inform people who are curious about the staff. There are numerous threads where mesmers talk about how much damage they do and how great they are when they don’t use the staff. Stay there if that’s you. I do not intend to educate the masses of misinformed mesmers out there; only to provide an alternate play-style and opinion to open minded people.

Let’s forget about damage and talk viability.

The other day I jumped into WvW to get my daily. On my travels I came across two allies fighting two mesmers. I wasn’t to interested in getting involved and went about farming a node while I watched one of the allies go down. Seeing the other continuing to fight (and thinking it was only 1 mesmer at the time), I decided to enter the fray to turn the tide on the battle (being a mesmer I know a thing or two about mesmers after all).

Just after I entered the fight the other friendly went down, and just before that I realised there were two staff using mesmers in this fight. Seeing as I wasnt all that interested in the fight to begin with I opted out of the fight at this point. The staff mesmers gave chase, but ultimately there was nothing they could do to stop me. Staff, or staff maining mesmers just can’t chase well enough. And in this mobility based meta that’s not a good thing. The fact is the other two guys who went down before me could have done the same, or at least could have to their advantage (making use of terrain and LoS). If they’re smarter for next time (or given the coming trait fixes), people will start doing the same.

As for the build I noticed you had Toxic focusing crystals slotted for +10% condition duration. You’re talking 23silver for 30 mins. Condition duration is important for a condi build, but this is an excessive cost for viability.

Those are just the first two that jumped out at me.

I was trying a staff chaos glamor/CI build yesterday just due to this thread. I am always trying new builds and I haven’t run staff in a while. I found a JQ guardian after a wipe at Bay and was chasing him around with three staff clones. I was hitting him with WoC for 74 damage. Needless to say his health bar wasn’t moving. My shout-heals warrior does literally an order of magnitude more damage and he aoe heals and cleanses.

CI on chaos storm/focus pull is fun though in a group.

Staff can be good in pvp but its totally a bad choise in pve.
Using a staff in a power build just make u loose too much dmg, cause its clearly a condition weapon. If u are using a condition build in pve…. its just a bad idea, i mean, u can do that but direct damage do a lot more dps, its definitely faster and conditions do have a cap on their stacks, and that cap can be filled by bleeds of ppl without condition damage doing 50dmg per tick instead of your 160dmg per tick.

In WvW…. if u are roaming with a small group thats ok, i also used a 0/25/25/0/20 with staff & scepter/torch and its really a pain, but in a zerg mesmer is just a veilbot, i tried every build and it was just useless except for veil and at times nullfield.
We’ll see after the feature patch..

Maniac Magee.2643:

III. Build: I call this the Maniac Magician.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vgUQNAW7flknpUtNqxMNcrNiY6RwhcAHKFXX2VShtdhA-zQCBINCyk0Bi+AOHqIaslhFRjVdDTlSIVHLy+ACpkCYRlVA-e

I use this build in PvE, WvW, and sPvP.

This build only provide super survivability.
But:
1. Useless in PvE – it’s all understand and no need to explain
2. Useless in sPvP – yes, you will survive long, but you can not capture and defend points in invisibility
3. Useless in roraming in WvW – yes, you will not die, but you will not kill also, due to enemie running
4.Useless in mass WvW – only 1 usefull skill (Chaos Storm)

Ross Biddle: I don’t expect everyone to read the whole thing but if you are going to post about some specifics then make sure I havent covered it first. I have stated already that it is meant to be with a group. I do havoc in WvW and the staff build is a wonderful thing to have in a group of 5-20 player fights. This game is SUPPOSED to be played with a team. I have already said that if you’re a solo roamer you don’t need to pay attention here. Solo Roaming is for kitten builders. Next sry but I can easily afford the toxic crystals.

Quercus: Same to you – read the post before commenting. If you don’t want to read it then don’t post about specifics. I said that you cannot simply “try” this kind of build for a short time. I do PLENTY of damage with this build because I know how to use it. Practice makes perfect.

Cuge: Condi is bad in PvE? Are we even playing the same game? I dont even know where to begin to discuss that one. Condi is vaulable in all situations.

Anton: Blanket statements dont hold any water. Give details and specifics like I did. That’s the constructive way to enter this discussion.

Sorry Magee. As the staff is my favorite weapon in the game, I took the time out to read this since its obvious you put a lot of work and time into writing it.

Biddle, Cuge, Anton, & Quercus are absolutely right.

In PvE it’s a bad choice, not only are your condition stacks conflicting with OTHER condition classes, but you simply will do much less damage than a power-based counterpart. Even with staff, iWarlock Chaos Storm and your Auto will do more cumulative damage than anything you try to do in a condition variant. That’s just the unfortunate fact.

Staff Mesmer cannot chase, ESPECIALLY if you have Scepter and no focus as an offhand. Anyone who doesn’t wanna fight you can simply choose to run away and there’s little you can do about it. Largescale WvW Chaos Storm is the only thing that won’t get lost in the havoc, making you useful every.. half minute.

It’s a fun build for sure, and good for dueling. It could even be somewhat effective in PvP if played very well, but there’s very little you can do versus the issue of enemies just choosing to ignore you.

“First of all let me clear something up about damage in this game as a general rule. Just because it is the popular thing does not make it the BEST thing or the ONLY thing to do. If you want a short fight where either you die or the oppenent dies in a very short amount of time that’s wonderful and exciting and go you. However, as in most things there’s a skillful, cerebral, tactical, reactionary way to contrast with the brute way and still handle every situation in this game. "

This is kinda true versus other players. Not so much in PvE. The only problem I have with this write-up is that you don’t have any actual comparitive data, you’re essentially just saying “if people tell you other wise they don’t know what they’re talking about.” with no numbers or facts to back it up. I get that you like the staff, and I agree that it’s damage potential is somewhat underrated, but ..

“A. The so-called Utilities of the staff are not strong. I have two answers for that.

I hear this alot and it is simply not true. After some questions I find the people who say this have only tried the staff for a short time. Guys nothing worthwhile in this game will come to you immediately. It takes practice and a completely different kind of skill. Do not listen to a GS or 1H sword Mesmer’s advice; he/she does not have the expertise to tell you how bad or good the staff is. It is a nuanced weapon. If you don’t use the nuance or haven’t learned what the nuances can do then it is simply lower damage than others. It takes a while to master."

Erm, the staff is the weakest Mesmer weapon. It sacrifices offense for defense in a way that makes it inverse to Greatsword. A good staff Mesmer will not outdamage a good scepter, sword, or GS Mesmer. Again, without any numbers or facts you’re going to have a hard time convincing people otherwise.

Again, I love the Mesmer staff as much as you but there’s quite a bit of misinformation here…

Dear Chaos Archangel thanks for the constructive response. Always nice to see mature and well-spoken people on the forums.

I still have to disagree with you on most accounts. A few things you said were right however, so let’s cover those first.

The staff is indeed lower damage than the other mesmer weapon choices. While I covered this in great detail (with some numbers) in my original post(s) it always bears revisiting as damage is indeed a very important game mechanic. No weapon will have the defensive capabilities of the staff and the damage of the GS or 1H sword. Plain and simple.

But this is by no means a downside to the staff. Every group, no matter how experienced, has wipes or near wipes in the high end arenas of this game. I cannot tell you how many times I have finished the fight solo or sat there absorbing damage and avoiding damage till I have the entire team back in the game. Show me a glass cannon mesmer that can do that consistently. Damage is not the end-all-be-all of GW2. Not now and, based on the talk of the Devs, not ever. Utility and survivability are important and useful.

Next you said that any player can simply run from a staff mesmer. That also is true. And can be frustrating.

But I believe in playing with well-balanced groups. This means that the CC you lack as a staff mesmer should be covered by your teammates just as their lack of survivability is covered by you.

Next something I completely disagree with, sorry. You said the staff is a bad choice in PvE. This is not a new argument, and will continue. But I play with a large variety of groups – pugs, guild groups, and long time friends – and not all of them have as much fury and might as they’d like. Staff attacks def help with that. Blinking to an ally laying down Chaos Storm and popping Chaos Armor you can rez your teammates seconds after they’re downed in a way few other classes/builds can. If that’s not valuable to the extreme pro’s in the game it certainly is for the other 99% of the player base. These I believe are the kind of details you asked for. But I’d like to go further.

In both PvE and sPvP/WvW your illusions don’t simply inflict conditions they can act as a literal meat shield. Put them between yourself and your opponents so that they take the damage and not you. While you can do this with any mesmer build, the Staff centric builds have the highest illusion creation rate (if made properly). There are simply too many nuanced details like this to list all of them or give “comparative data” in one thread.

Next you addressed my assessment of damage and it’s value in the game. Let me first clear up that I value damage players being on my team. I need them; but they likewise need me. If you want actual data from in-combat I will fail you there – I know what I know from playing a long time with this setup but cannot quote numbers on everything I have observed. But I would definitely be available to get together and show you some of the things I have described so you can see.

“A good staff mesmer will not outdamage a good scepter, sword or GS mesmer.” This is true. However a good staff mesmer can maintain a backbone in a group that few other classes can. You appear to be everywhere, you are constantly putting pressure on potentially multiple opponents, and can help your allies in a multitude of ways I have already covered.

Going back up in your post a bit you said “your condition stacks conflicting with OTHER condition classes”. I am not sure what you mean by this. It is rare to have more than 2 condition classes in a group (because the value of conditions is largely underrated I feel) and there is always room for 2 of them. Most of the time it is a necromancer but their Epidemic only strengthens your build and the whole team. More than 2 is indeed sometimes a waste of bleeds….but NO group is perfect. I have more condition damage than most other condi classes with my setup and my condi’s are not a waste. Ever. In fact, because I am condi my damage largely continues while I divert my attention to help allies. That is a bigger deal than most realize. Again I do not have numbers but please come on a run with me and my teams to see what I’m talking about.

You said I do not have any comparative data. Yea that is true. I did not (and mostly likely will not as I work and socialize and would like to play GW2 not just talk about it) accumulate a ton of data. This post is an accumulation of my extensive experience. I have seen so many times where damage based mesmers on teams with me are constantly having to be rezzed while the other classes (who can do as much if not more damage) are fine. I am not here to say that the staff is better than the other mesmer weapon choices but I do think it is underrated and has a lot of misinformation about it. You said the same about this whole thread. But you mostly pointed out things that I already addressed. If you want an entire team of zerkers because you think that is the most efficient way to play the game then go ahead; hell in some senses you are correct. But many many players benefit from a utility class or two in their group. That is a fact that can be shot down verbally time and time again but each time I rez the entire team on Mai Trin and get them to finish it and each time I solo the last 20% of the essence collection from the Lover’s Cript in AC because we did not have enough “all important damage” to carry through I will know that the staff saved the team a complete re-do. In many ways the staff mesmer is a boon to any individuals who learn to use it and any groups lucky enough to have an experienced staff mesmer around.

Please feel free to whisper me in game or send me a mail. I’d like to show you some of what I am talking about. From what you say I really don’t think you have seen a fully competent staff mesmer. You say it is your fav weapon but I cannot believe that you love it as much as I do and still not see it’s benefits.

Staff #2 is basically an evade +block. It’s saved me a lot in boss fights and against random mobs. Staff clones are the most useful clones out there, they actually keep applying conditions while you do other things. I’ve used warlock and duelist with these builds and it works well.

The damage conditions do isn’t to be laughed at but you need the +40% condi food, haven’t used the toxic crystal yet but I may buy the recipe and make my own. It’s sad that condi duration is tied to the power trait line and not some other line.

Maniac Magee.2643:

Ross Biddle: I don’t expect everyone to read the whole thing but if you are going to post about some specifics then make sure I havent covered it first. I have stated already that it is meant to be with a group. I do havoc in WvW and the staff build is a wonderful thing to have in a group of 5-20 player fights. This game is SUPPOSED to be played with a team. I have already said that if you’re a solo roamer you don’t need to pay attention here. Solo Roaming is for kitten builders. Next sry but I can easily afford the toxic crystals.

I didn’t mean any disrespect. That said, regardless of it you covered it it needed to be said. So allow me to counter your counters.

I won’t argue that staff doesn’t offer anything to your 5-20 man groups. Boons are boons, and that’s great. I used to like boon stacking (using staff) and sharing with the signit in fractals etc. The problem is there are just so many better mesmer options to bring in a group fight. Aside from the random boon procs on your allies, your passive agressive, selfish defense weapon isnt bringing anything to the game. It’ll keep you alive (as you said, you’ve been the last one left alive, tanking but doing nothing but holding out till your group mates arrive to deal with the enemies), but that’s it… It’s like the chaos trait line on a weapon.

The other thing I give to staff is it’s extreme survivability. It’s the one thing it’s great at, and this makes it a solid starter weapon for newbie mesmers. The problem is that there’s no amount of survivability the staff offers that cannot be acomplished without staff. Therefor, why take it? There’s a learning curve to this to be sure, but once you’re there the only reason left to take a staff is either A: because you enjoy it, B: to easily counterbalance extreme offence such as GS, or C: (enter whatever asthetic you prefer here).

In conclusion: sure, staff is great. But you’ll be better off with something else in a Playing to Win game.

How does this build work in big zerg fights? Somehow it seems like it’s impossible to tag a variety of enemies for loot bags (except for Chaos Storm, which has a very long cd). This is also a very important aspect of WvW. :P

Charming Rogue.8071:

How does this build work in big zerg fights? Somehow it seems like it’s impossible to tag a variety of enemies for loot bags (except for Chaos Storm, which has a very long cd). This is also a very important aspect of WvW. :P

It doesn’t

Running tonight on a staff build on TC against JQ map blobs. Kept getting downed, clones die instantly, conditions cleared instantly, just a rally bot. I actually rage quit and logged my warrior.

quercus.9261:

Charming Rogue.8071:

How does this build work in big zerg fights? Somehow it seems like it’s impossible to tag a variety of enemies for loot bags (except for Chaos Storm, which has a very long cd). This is also a very important aspect of WvW. :P

It doesn’t

Running tonight on a staff build on TC against JQ map blobs. Kept getting downed, clones die instantly, conditions cleared instantly, just a rally bot. I actually rage quit and logged my warrior.

I was running my uplevel ele in those fights and leveling off the endless kills :p

Whoops, I shoulda clarified. I didn’t mean that staff is a bad weapon for PvE, I meant condition damage is inferior in PvE. No matter how much condition damage you do a power build (even a power staff build) will still outdamage you. I use staff in PvE all the time.

Also, by conditions conflicting with other classes I mean that each person’s condition damage affects their own condition stacks. If you’re putting 10 bleeds on someone, and someone else is putting 15, even if you have the higher condition damage you’ll never be able to get past 10 because of the other guy’s 15x weaker bleed stacks. The thing is, a power-based staff works really well with other condition based classes. Stick with a condi engineer/necro and iWarlock will be doing tons of damage.

We actually have a similar mentality about team building and all that, but the unfortunate fact is that nearly everything in PvE can be mitigated with smart use of the Dodge ability. Dodge/self heals are some of the main reasons why you don’t really need support classes. Each class can bring damage AND utility to a team, and it’s everyone supporting eachother that makes the group succeed, so if you’re going to be heavily support-focused you need to be kitten good at it, both build-wise and talent-wise.

By comparative data I don’t mean to go bust out your calculator and jotting down facts. I’m just saying that you can’t throw up a thread and simply say “I’m right, and anyone who disagrees hasn’t been using the weapon as long as me… Because I’m right!” and expect people to just believe you with no real proof. However I’m always willing to team up and hopefully learn something new, feel free to shoot me a PM and we’ll meet up ingame!

When I was doing open world map clears, I found GS/staff 20/20/0/0/30 shatter to be the most efficient setup. Staff is great for mobility and shatter fodder. But WvW is a different story.

Just gonna chime in with my 2c here. Staff is a great great great weapon. It may be the best all around mesmer weapon. However there are issues that make it a terrible offensive weapon.
Chaos Armor and chaos storm are only good to an extent in pve…. In pvp chaos storm is amazing if you have an interrupt build…. but then your staff becomes useless for a half of a minute.

I warlock…. If I had a nickel for every time a player or mob just WALKED out of this guy’s projectile I’d have a few hundred nickels…. The other problem with it is that it’s a power based skill on a mostly condition based weapon…
So if you are running a power build ur warlock hits like a wet noodle if you are condition he also hits like a wet noodle in solo play (in groups I have gotten 15k hits on bosses in dungeons)

Is staff a great weapon that is versatile yes. But like all mesmer weapons it has some ridiculous draw backs.

I gotta sorta-kinda object, J.

Staff works well in a 30Chaos lockdown build for a number of reasons. The 30% boon duration adds an extra second to all the staff boons. iWarlock should be summoned AFTER a staff clone or two and Chaos Storm+Armor to drop condis on an opponent including cripple & chill (not to mention immobilize + Random condition on interrupt). The whole of staff kinda supports iWarlock when used properly, and thats not considering potential torment/confusion.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Aside from the random boon procs on your allies, your passive agressive, selfish defense weapon isnt bringing anything to the game.

Forgive me, but what mesmer weapon isn’t selfish? Sword blocks but only for you of course…scepter blocks but again only for you…GS will give out some might but usually others already have that covered. So what weapon isn’t selfish? I am honestly asking, not trying to be snarky or anything

At least with staff you have an aoe that not only damages but aids your allies as well with a random boon or two. And it lets others blast away to get Chaos Armor along with Null field. Yeah it’s on a long cooldown but it’s an option the other weapons don’t give.

I used to play a GS mesmer mainly before, but that was only because everyone recommended me to do so. I felt like combats were flat and repetitive. Just a chain of the same skills, always. Plus, I could only deal damage, I was really limited.
Now it’s been over 4 months that i switched to Staff as my main weapon, and I just absolutely adore it. I’m using Rampager stats almost everywhere except some soldier and rabid here and there.
Staff is just so much fun! I can deal a hell lot of damage to multiple enemies, keep up melee teammates at minimum 5 Might+Fury and pop some Aegis on them with Chaos Storm. I also use Runes of Lyssa with a Signet of Inspiration, so I basically give my whole group All Boons for 5 seconds every 90 seconds with Mass Invisibility.
What’s also really cool (as OP said) is popping skills 5 and 4 on a downed ally and Blink to him and get him back on his feet without a problems.
I run lvl49 fractals almost every other day, I think it’s considered as high-end content, and i generally receive positive feedback for my performances.
Rampager has no stat for survivability, but staff’s skills compensate for that, so I rarely get downed. Of course it’s not an easy gameplay, it takes a lot responsiveness and concentration, but hey, isn’t that what mesmers are meant for? I’m quite glad about my build, actually, because I know I have a unique style of playing.

I don’t know about you, but I’d never trade my staff for a greatsword. Ever.
’nuff said

Djahlat.9610:

I don’t know about you, but I’d never trade my staff for a greatsword. Ever.
’nuff said

What about in a duel vs a thief?

Finally. I’ve been looking for something like this for a long time now Seems like you have a really similar playstyle to mine…
Could you please discuss an sPvP version of this build? I’m struggling to find similar runes and sigils..

rabidsmiles.5926:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Aside from the random boon procs on your allies, your passive agressive, selfish defense weapon isnt bringing anything to the game.

Forgive me, but what mesmer weapon isn’t selfish? Sword blocks but only for you of course…scepter blocks but again only for you…GS will give out some might but usually others already have that covered. So what weapon isn’t selfish? I am honestly asking, not trying to be snarky or anything

At least with staff you have an aoe that not only damages but aids your allies as well with a random boon or two. And it lets others blast away to get Chaos Armor along with Null field. Yeah it’s on a long cooldown but it’s an option the other weapons don’t give.

The sword 4 and scepter 2 will only block for you if you press them once. If you press them twice though, it interrupts/blinds in a line which helps your whole team. Pistol 5 stun/daze/blind also can help your team. Torch 4 is an AOE blind/blast finisher. Warden is reflects for everyone and focus 4 is another interrupt/pull which can benefit the team. Combine focus 4 and 5 for aoe condition removal. So most of the mesmers weapons can benefit a team.

The staff is random and I would never rely on it. Sure a random aegis is nice but I’m not going to bank on that and it probably won’t affect most people on my team since they aren’t going to wish for an aegis and not dodge. The chaos armor also requires you getting hit before a proc happens. If you are tanking waves of weak hits, chaos armor would be great. That never/rarely happens though. The staff auto can also be a detriment to your team. When people blast might/use skills to buff others, that might is usually 20-40 second durations. Having the staff clones give 5 seconds of might can actually be a detriment to other peoples builds as it starts getting rid of the more long lasting might. Furthermore, the ethereal fields can get in the way of more potent fields.

TLDR: So basically, the staff can hurt your team or it’s too random to really help your team. Most of the mesmer weapons, through active defense (blinds/interrupts/reflects), will protect your entire team and are not selfish.

Maniac Magee.2643:

Every group, no matter how experienced, has wipes or near wipes in the high end arenas of this game.

This is simply not true. Well, strictly speaking it’s probably at least close to true—just about every group at least has a chance of screwing up at some point and wiping. But this isn’t all that matters. The question that lots of people are concerned with isn’t whether they’re going to wipe, but whether the overall loss in speed making sure they never wipe is worth it.

If, for example, I have the choice between wiping once every ten dungeons with everyone set up for dps and never wiping because everyone sacrificed dps for survivability, I’m choosing the dps group, because we’re still going to get things done much faster overall. And while I’m not a hardcore dungeon speedrunner or anything, I’m pretty sure I actually see a wipe much less frequently than once every ten dungeon runs.

This isn’t to say that nobody should use staff. It’s a game! Use what you want and have fun with it, and if this thread helps someone else discover a new way to play the game and have fun, that’s fantastic. But here I think you’ve misrepresented how a big portion of the high-end content in the game actually plays out for a lot of people. Wipes are very rare, and even if they happen, runs will still on average be faster (and easier!) with more dps.

I’ve been away for a bit. Love the things said so far.

Ross Biddle you asked about a thief duel. I will always grant that a staff build is easy to run from 1v1. It’s meant to be part of a team (though technically all classes are). BUT. I rarely lose a fight to a thief. It has happened. There is always a better player. But thieves do not generally give a staff mesmer much trouble.

SrebX. I am glad you asked. In sPvP I use Accuracy or Energy Sigils. Lyssa Runes work very well if you use Mass Invis b/c of its relatively low cd. If you use a Focus instead of Torch then Centaur Runes allow for easy swiftness. But I stick with the same traits and rabid gear in sPvP. If you have more questions plz feel free.

DuckDuckBoom. If you do not like randomness then staff is not for you. You are absolutely right about the random nature of the staff. But that is part of the fun and chaos of many mesmer playstyles.

One Note Chord. I have to applaud you for your attitude. Thank you. People should feel free to play the way they want. I do not feel that mis-represented the endgame content. There is a small portion of the GW2 players who truly are pro and can ignore much of what I cautioned people about. BUT. I play with a nice variety of people. There are a few in our groups like me who are very knowledgeable and capable and rarely have any problems. But we also always have a few who are less experienced. Not terrible, or stupid. They simply have played less. There will always be those people and I love playing with them. But groups that “never” have any problems with Arah p4 or lvl 80 TA are not nearly as common as the non-pro ones. So what I have to say is there for the MAJORITY of the players. Those of you out there who are exceptions know who you are and need not take what I say to heart. If this wasnt true then you would not have added the “Well, strictly speaking it’s probably at least close to true” part to your opening statement.

As for dmg, I love having dmg dealers in my groups. I am in no way saying dmg doesnt make things faster and therefore easier. While i may have come on strong with many things I said plz remember this is a mesmer thread, and a mesmer post. I am addressing specifically a problem in attitude that exists in the mesmer player base not talking about the game in general. However, specialization is limiting. Aside from those less common full pro groups most people need a hand sometimes. My staff build allows me to be a backbone to any group. Not a tank I want to be clear about “backbone.” I can rez easier than most due to blink, chaos armor, chaos storm, several invis skills, and having multiple stun breaks and a good amount of toughness (I have more armor than zerker warriors). I ADD dmg to people with my boons, and my clones take heat off of the group regularly. None of this is exclusive to a staff mesmer but the staff does lend itself to this very well. Another side to this age-old argument is the fact that some people really play well with glass cannon set-ups and groups, and others don’t. I think the real mis-representation is on the part of the dmg fanatics in this game. They think that it is the only style that works and the only style that requires skill. That is simply not true. Both styles work, both require skill, and different kinds of players will naturally excel at 1 or the other. An ideal group has both kinds of players. That kind of group will be fast enough, stable enough, and fun as hell. That is what I personally shoot for.

Thanks for all your input guys. Keep it coming. I have seen far less trolling than I expected. You guys have mostly had interesting and logical things to say.

@Maniac Magee – Your last post was very well stated, and I applaud your attitude as well as others in this thread. I’m level 49 (trying to get to 60 before April 15 so I can have GM traits before 80), and I can’t wait to get to 80 to try your build. It’s what I’m going for. I love the idea of a chaos mesmer keeping illusions up so there are orbs bouncing all over the place doing all kinds of random things. Is it optimal? No. Does it sound like a ton of fun? Hell yes. And with the “fix” to Illusionary Elasticity coming, it’s going to get even nuttier.

If I trait/gear this way and some group doesn’t want me b/c I’m not optimal, that’s their prerogative and I 100% support their right to have it. I’ll just find another group less min/max focused to play with, and have a lot of fun.

sirrealist, as long as you have already created your mesmer by april 15, you will have all the currently existing traits unlocked (although you won’t have access to GM traits until 80, but you wouldn’t anyway even if you reached 60 by the 15th)

Ron, according to the official feature back blog post: “All existing characters created before this feature pack will have all previously existing major traits unlocked.”

So, if I unlock the GM traits by getting to level 60 before April 15, I will still have them unlocked once the pack is applied.

My post above is correct… right?

sirrealist.1360:

My post above is correct… right?

Major traits are the ones you can choose and minor traits are the in-between ones at 5, 15, 25. The patch will unlock all major traits (adept, master, grandmaster) that exist prior to the patch, not just the ones you’ve unlocked. Roll a level 1 the day before the patch and you’ll have them all unlocked after the patch once you hit the appropriate level.

Seras.5702:

once you hit the appropriate level.

That’s my point. Right now A, M and GM traits are unlocked at 11, 40 and 60. After the patch, it will be 30, 60 and 80. My understanding is, if you’ve unlocked a tier before the patch, it will still be unlocked after the patch, even if you don’t meet the NEW level reqs.

So, if you get to 60 before the patch, you will still have GM unlocked after the patch. If you only get to 59 before the patch, then after the patch you will have to get to 80 to unlock GM.

Isn’t this correct?

I don’t think they are talking about tier unlocks. I think they are talking about the individual trait unlocks. So all new characters will have to pay/explore to unlock all the individual traits. Old characters won’t have to do the pay/explore for traits but I think the old ones will still need to hit 80 before being able to use GM traits in the new system.