Guild Wars 2

before i post it in profession balance i wanted to hear what other mesmer think about it.

Deceptive Evasion is kitten, which is needed in almost all build.

What about swaping it with phantasmal hase or Illusionary Elasticity.

what do you think about it?

…

doesn’t that just mean everyone trait into illusions?

I do agree that its always needed in all builds. (Maybe except Phantasm) but yeah, this is exactly the reason why I seldom play my mes now.

Lemme guess, what are the utilities? Decoy, Blink, Mod or A Cleanse?

As pyro said, Its like playing the same thing with just a different flavor

Its just sad.

Lockdown Build? DE needed. Decoy or Blink. A cleanse
Shatter Build? DE needed. A cleanse. Decoy or Blink (Null or Mantra)
PU build? DE needed. Decoy or Blink. A Cleanse (or without if with Traited Torch, AI = if it works properly) Blink or Veil. MI
Signet Build? DE will be needed because it shares a slot with Blurred Inscriptions, Unless you go 6 into dueling. Either Null or Mantra Cleanse because Cleansing Inscriptions is whack.

Trust me, it is very hard to play without DE. The whole mesmer mechanic runs on the phantasm/clones fuel.

solves nothing and ultimately hurts build diversity.

you can play sliding tiles all day long and never get a better set up. Specially now that Illusionary Elasticity works on staff clones (for how long who knows).

Either take DE out and make it a natural thing that Mesmer always makes clones on dodge. or leave it where it is.

or just remove it from the game entirely and force mesmers to abandon a lot of tactics and 2 years worth of combat specialization.

Swish.2463:

solves nothing and ultimately hurts build diversity.

you can play sliding tiles all day long and never get a better set up. Specially now that Illusionary Elasticity works on staff clones (for how long who knows).

Either take DE out and make it a natural thing that Mesmer always makes clones on dodge. or leave it where it is.

or just remove it from the game entirely and force mesmers to abandon a lot of tactics and 2 years worth of combat specialization.

Just Make it a mechanic. As I’ve said too many skills and mechanics run on clones/phantasm fuel.

Just having DE hurts Diversity. But again, it is our class mechanic.

I think the actual problem should be fixed (how strong it is and that in turn our class is balanced around having it). Not the symptom (which you actually would by moving it).

What I’d do:

• Rebalance clone-generation vs shatter. Less clones generated who 100% copy the Mesmer in durability and ability usage (just not damage, none of their attacks should have any effect, rebalance AA attacks around that!). Shatter in turn hits much much harder.
• Deceptive Evasion now summons a temporary clone which always dodges exactly opposite the Mesmer and it is visually not possible to say who is who. Afterwards the clone will do two AA animations, then dissipate. Cannot be used for shattering.

Carighan.6758:

I think the actual problem should be fixed (how strong it is and that in turn our class is balanced around having it). Not the symptom (which you actually would by moving it).

What I’d do:

• Rebalance clone-generation vs shatter. Less clones generated who 100% copy the Mesmer in durability and ability usage (just not damage, none of their attacks should have any effect, rebalance AA attacks around that!). Shatter in turn hits much much harder.
• Deceptive Evasion now summons a temporary clone which always dodges exactly opposite the Mesmer and it is visually not possible to say who is who. Afterwards the clone will do two AA animations, then dissipate. Cannot be used for shattering.

This could work but would absolutely destroy on clone death builds. So if use rabid, my clones will copy my durability then leading them to be harder to kill in battle.

Yes, well, ofc such a change would require extensive reworks. On-death traits would need to be significantly improved.

The issue is Deceptive Evasion IS the only way to create clones fast enough to keep up with shattering or clone-death explosions to make any build viable.
Lets have a look at other options we have:
- Scepter AA: way too slow.
- Clone-summoning weapon skills: too powerful to waste CDs just to make 1 clone, meaning they are situational.
- Decoy & Mirror Images: a stunbreakers, long CDs, also too valuable to waste just to make clones, again, situational skills.

So better is to give us more ways to create clones that we rely on without DE crutch.

I have suggested in an old thread that Bountiful Disillusionment trait can have 10% chance to proc Mirror Images (without stunbreaker effect) upon shattering (45s icd or 36s icd with iCelerity traited).

Also, another idea would be a trait that makes clone upon interrupt, maybe considering icd or a good placement to prevent it from becoming OP.

My Idea about DE is removing DE as trait and give this as mesmer default ability without traiting. For Phantasm Specs where you don’t need DE, I think changing phantasmal strength trait ( in Inspiration line) would solve the issue where you don’t need clones. I think changing the trait ( phantasms damage increased by %15) to your damage and phantasms damage increased by %15 and you no longer summon clones on dodge should be a good way.

Maybe put it as a minor trait or a adept trait, because the thing that’s hurting is having to go a complete four into Dueling. I don’t think ANet will give us it for free, though.

Keenlam is on a good track though. I think we need a clone generating trait in each, or at least 3 total, trait lines. I wouldn’t mind them all being Master Traits so long as they were appropriately placed and equally strong in context.

New trait, replaces bountiful dissilusionment: Master of Chaos: All skills that produce a clone now produce 2 clones instead.

I think the main issue here is the whole mesmer mechanic is too dependent on clone production and clones in general.

Shatter needs clones
Death trait needs clones
Condis need clones for the simple fact that clone AA deal conditions

Clones are also needed for body blocking and a little bit of misdirection

I think the mesmer needs some serious revamps in major departments.

As I’ve said, Mesmer is too reliant on DE

but we also have subpar Utilities Thats why in every build you see common utilities over and over again.

DE will likely never become the default class mechanic. The outcry would be such that even if Anet went with it, it would get reverted.

Personally I think DE is fine and appropriately placed, but we just need more triggers to generate clones to open up diversity with builds that don’t use DE. I like the on interrupt idea but that’s too random. Pyro’s idea is on the right track, but expensive. We need creative options in the various adept or master trees (dom/chaos/insp/illusions). I don’t have any at the moment but I think that’s the solution.

this argument is ultimately why Anets choice to remove Hex’s and Gw1 styled conditions and cast bars, and replace them with clones and phantasms as a classes core mechanic was such a terrible move.

good on paper unless you read it..

This is why more often than not when you argue about DE you end up with the same three answers.

A. Well just move it lower or to a new line, they’ll open up builds (it wont, people will still go 4/4/0/0/6 or 4/2/0/2/6 or whatever)

B. Just make more clone Traits! Cool idea, how are you going to balance that if people take multiples of these type of traits? they cant all be GM traits. Would it be acceptable if you were able to generate 4 clones from mirror images there Pyro? and then 2 per dodge?

C. Mesmer class just needs a redo. either get rid of the clones gimmick or change how shatters work or buff my clones and phantasms or nerf clones and phantasms and make my mesmers the beast… blah blah..

This answer pretty much always ends up requiring Anet to go back to the drawing board, and then getting back to us about it “soon”.

Hence why i Think there is 0 use in making suggestions about certain traits and build diversity anymore. We got painted into a Corner on a few things and without totally kittening up Anet’s pretty paint job, there is absolutely no way to get out of it.

Anet doesn’t enjoy repainting things (excluding gem shop armor and weapons)

Swish.2463:

this argument is ultimately why Anets choice to remove Hex’s and Gw1 styled conditions and cast bars, and replace them with clones and phantasms as a classes core mechanic was such a terrible move.

good on paper unless you read it..

This is why more often than not when you argue about DE you end up with the same three answers.

A. Well just move it lower or to a new line, they’ll open up builds (it wont, people will still go 4/4/0/0/6 or 4/2/0/2/6 or whatever)

B. Just make more clone Traits! Cool idea, how are you going to balance that if people take multiples of these type of traits? they cant all be GM traits. Would it be acceptable if you were able to generate 4 clones from mirror images there Pyro? and then 2 per dodge?

C. Mesmer class just needs a redo. either get rid of the clones gimmick or change how shatters work or buff my clones and phantasms or nerf clones and phantasms and make my mesmers the beast… blah blah..

This answer pretty much always ends up requiring Anet to go back to the drawing board, and then getting back to us about it “soon”.

Hence why i Think there is 0 use in making suggestions about certain traits and build diversity anymore. We got painted into a Corner on a few things and without totally kittening up Anet’s pretty paint job, there is absolutely no way to get out of it.

Anet doesn’t enjoy repainting things (excluding gem shop armor and weapons)

Exactly. Making it a minor, Moving it to a different line.

The problem will still be the same. People will still get it. So where’s the diversity in that?

skcamow.3527:

DE will likely never become the default class mechanic. The outcry would be such that even if Anet went with it, it would get reverted.

I doubt we’d see any outcry at all. Nearly every single Mesmer build runs DE now. How many would notice that all Mesmers went from using a trait to just having it default without a proper Announcement in the patch notes?

The meta is already built up around Mesmer using this trait, and the change probably wouldn’t alter how its handled..

If it were just made defualt I might actually want to take something like DD for the first time in a year and a half..

If I could, I would replace all the garbage traits with clone generators.

Chaotic Revival → Chaotic Response
• Create a clone when you lose more than 10% health from one attack.

Retaliatory Demise → Deceptive Retaliation
• 50% chance to create a clone when struck while you have retaliation.

Disrupter’s Sustainment → Metaphysical Recovery
• Create 2 clones when you use a healing skill.

Blinding Befuddlement → Double Vision
• Create a clone when you blind an enemy.

Some of those would require cooldowns but I’m just throwing out ideas.

Swish.2463:

skcamow.3527:

DE will likely never become the default class mechanic. The outcry would be such that even if Anet went with it, it would get reverted.

I doubt we’d see any outcry at all. Nearly every single Mesmer build runs DE now. How many would notice that all Mesmers went from using a trait to just having it default without a proper Announcement in the patch notes?

The meta is already built up around Mesmer using this trait, and the change probably wouldn’t alter how its handled..

If it were just made defualt I might actually want to take something like DD for the first time in a year and a half..

It would open up the most build diversity the class has ever seen but also allow play of 6 in illusions and 6 in any other tree. You make DE default and all the sudden you don’t necessarily need to spec dueling anymore, or allows other decent master dueling traits to be taken. This opens up the possibility for some very powerful new builds. I can imagine some of the legit 6/0/0/0/6 or 0/0/6/0/6 shatter/lockdown specs if this really happened. I don’t know, I just think it would be too much – something else would have to be balanced behind this change and I have no idea what that would be.

No doubt it would require some rebalancing but what other traits in the gm slots would couple well with ip?

I can think power pu with ip if de was made a class mechanic.

When I started this game and intended to be a mesmer I was at first disappointing with the hard reliance on clones and phants for damage output. Since then I, as I’m sure others have, have come to accept the fact.

I personally would be more in favor of just making it a class mechanic and changing DE to something else or perhaps making it a buff to the standard mechanic…

As per the original suggestion I do see the benefits to moving DE to illusions (and I do think Illusionary elasticity would be the best candidate for dueling if this were to happen.) but I find majority of this really opens up possibilities for alternate shatter builds, and less so about over all diversity for the class. Which I don’t mind at all but it doesn’t feel very progressive.

As for Carighan’s suggestion I’m all for clones being more about deception but sacrificing damage output with our already crummy coefficients (and how long it takes A-net to balance) isn’t as appealing to me considering we’re finally in an ok spot. (atleast in PvP… takes FOREVER to solo lupi still -_-)

For a change like this being considered “OP” I want to say “Medi guards and Regen bunkers on point. Your argument is invalid.” but that wouldn’t be in very good taste xD.

Realistically tho I think it would be fine worse case scinero I could see is IP with PU but PU I feel has been watered down enough to justify it without any issues. No dueling means less vigor and no bleeds on clone crits (and the major adept trait in dueling is actually pretty awesome in terms of selection.) which imo I think is a fine trade off for any other combo.

TBH tho I’d really like to see a 00066 mes vs a d/d ele lol.

I personally think people would complain about mesmers being op with GM’s outside of dueling and illusions being viable for shatter mes. It seems like it would make it extremely strong and other classes would cry when us mesmers killed them and complain until anet reverted all changes or just nerfed us in some other way. If the balanced it then e would be back where we started but lockdown would have a worse CI and more clone generation but it would also use IP and I see CI + IP becoming the meta and almost no build differentiation by most mesmers( there will always be those who try pure lockdown or other crazy builds but really 00606 would be way stronger than 60600

PU + Maim would become viable for glassier condi shatter mesmers if PU was not so lame and that they already have so much toughness in most builds ( they are rabid or dire if not rampager rabid mix)

Weapons would probably be good for the diversity of mesmers because they could open more possibilities for mesmer as a class. A high confusion stack scpeter toch / pistol pistol would be viable if pistol auto stacked confusion or even if it had confusion at all. Condi – Dagger would add a new off hand or even main hand which could work to add diversity to mesmer builds such as melee condi mes. Builds with different weapons feel different and these might even add new possibilities for build types. phantasms might be stronger with dagger off hand pushing phantasm builds into popularity. if dagger main had was power and high CC it might aid lockdown builds and they might reach tournament lvl. All these weapons could change / create new builds or make old ones popular again.

@sadrien can you please condense your post seems a bit spammy/messy (maybe BM?) to quad post.

Deceptive evasion DOES need to be moved. But not to another tree!

In order to increase build diversity it should be swapped with the master minor trait sharper images.

this allows every build running this before to be unchanged if they choose to. As well as opening up a lot of different build variations such as only going 3 slots in dueling and placing 1 slot someplace else

Or going 4 in dueling and grabbing some of the other master dueling traits.

^ my opinion what y’all think?

Also I don’t like your crazy revamp suggestions. Mesmers play style and traits do not need to be totally reworked just to fix Mesmers diversity.

Having DE as a default class machanic is just OP no matter how you look at it. There needs to be some investment to get it.

And moving it out of dueling and in to any other tree would just devastate tons of builds. And only open a few

Also the only issue with DE right now is that it blocks viable use of the master traits in dueling unless you go 30 in dueling….which is sad for diversity.
In addition to costing 1 trait point more than what we would like to pay.

Which is why in my opinion placing DE as the master minor trait is perfect as it reduces the requirement to get it while opening up tons of other viable choices. And if you don’t like the change and wanted the bleeds that’s alright because you can get back sharper images in dueling master selection or perhaps the minor selection. Who knows.

This is the best decision I think

three into dueling is to high no one would be encouraged to take anything but the normal build and would just stick with 4 into dueling. no minor adept is worth a master major

What other traits in the master line are worth taking in builds? Dd is for pistol users, how many builds take pistol?

There’s a signet trait in there that’s laughable

Mantra defensive buff.. nah.. Mantra builds don’t need de anyway

As for an extra left over point.. No.. why use that to pick up a second minor when none of our secondary minors are worth picking up without investing fully into a line…

I get the feeling you’re very new to mesmer

Chaos.3579:

Also I don’t like your crazy revamp suggestions. Mesmers play style and traits do not need to be totally reworked just to fix Mesmers diversity.

Having DE as a default class machanic is just OP no matter how you look at it. There needs to be some investment to get it.

And moving it out of dueling and in to any other tree would just devastate tons of builds. And only open a few

Also the only issue with DE right now is that it blocks viable use of the master traits in dueling unless you go 30 in dueling….which is sad for diversity.
In addition to costing 1 trait point more than what we would like to pay.

Which is why in my opinion placing DE as the master minor trait is perfect as it reduces the requirement to get it while opening up tons of other viable choices. And if you don’t like the change and wanted the bleeds that’s alright because you can get back sharper images in dueling master selection or perhaps the minor selection. Who knows.

This is the best decision I think

DE is the major issue, yes, but it’s not the only one.

• 4 in dueling = +200 precision +200 ferocity. This is important in builds both for damage and on crit effects

• 1 in dueling also grants Critical Infusion. That vigor on crits is vital for mesmer survival (need those dodges on light class), and synergies with DE (more dodge rolls are vital for more clone production. When Crit Infusion was nerfed, it feeling was noticeable.

• Shaper images and DE play heavily in the overall dps of condi, hybrid, and power builds. Moving anything around in this 4 point investment either messes up where Mesmer needs to be (thus the reliance problem here), and not investing in it at all creates utter shortcomings in the class.

Mesmer builds are fundamentally tied to 4 in dueling with the exception of nitch builds and situations (such as running a Commander, or alternative Zerg Melee build).

DE is the optimal choice in any legit Mesmer build. Not taking DE and associated dueling line traits is to make the conscious choice for unoptimization.

Ross Biddle.2367:

DE is the major issue, yes, but it’s not the only one.

• 4 in dueling = +200 precision +200 ferocity. This is important in builds both for damage and on crit effects

• 1 in dueling also grants Critical Infusion. That vigor on crits is vital for mesmer survival (need those dodges on light class), and synergies with DE (more dodge rolls are vital for more clone production. When Crit Infusion was nerfed, it feeling was noticeable.

• Shaper images and DE play heavily in the overall dps of condi, hybrid, and power builds. Moving anything around in this 4 point investment either messes up where Mesmer needs to be (thus the reliance problem here), and not investing in it at all creates utter shortcomings in the class.

Mesmer builds are fundamentally tied to 4 in dueling with the exception of nitch builds and situations (such as running a Commander, or alternative Zerg Melee build).

DE is the optimal choice in any legit Mesmer build. Not taking DE and associated dueling line traits is to make the conscious choice for unoptimization.

I don’t really get the point you are trying to make in relation to my suggestion of moving DE to were sharper images is in either case of sharper images being moved to the adept trait or master trait selections.

Having all those staples in that specific trait line makes Mesmers strong. It’s not a issue at all. The only with DE is simply that it makes running any build with a different dueling master trait unviable or too costly.

With my suggestion placing DE where sharper images is changes nothing as you could then grab sharper images where DE was. They just change positions while at the same time allowing you to take different dueling master traits while also having DE . And if it is your choice move 1 trait point out of dueling and place it somewhere else. I’m not saying that this would open up good builds however its more options without destroying any of the previous diversity.

My suggestion is simple yet it does so much without impacting any build at all

So what was your point in regards to my suggestion again?
You simply stated facts and did not give a stance about what was wrong with my suggestion or even presented a solution of your own.

Swish.2463:

What other traits in the master line are worth taking in builds? Dd is for pistol users, how many builds take pistol?

There’s a signet trait in there that’s laughable

Mantra defensive buff.. nah.. Mantra builds don’t need de anyway

As for an extra left over point.. No.. why use that to pick up a second minor when none of our secondary minors are worth picking up without investing fully into a line…

I get the feeling you’re very new to mesmer

I got the feeling YOUR new to mesmer.

The pistol trait is decent. Its solid it’s not more amazing than DE however it sure would be nice to be able to grab that without having to go 30 in dueling or to not take DE don’t you think?
Also the most likely weapon for Mesmers to get is main hand pistol if anet does such a thing and that would make the change I am suggesting all the more meaningful.

The signet trait is godly if you got your timing perfect and the right build for it.
(Although It takes skill and experience in both case’s you give off a sense of lacking.)

As for the mantra trait I agree with you. There are much better choices. But hay I’m willing to bet someone could make a mantra phantasm tank build with this!

Although the one thing you don’t get is that you don’t have to take a master trait. You can take a adept trait instead. For example what if you had blade training and phantasmal fury for a offhand sword build? There are tons of different choices now made viable, and affordable.

As for the leftover trait by having DE 1 trait cheaper. What you do with it is totally up to your imagination. Seeing as you lack that allow me to simply state that if you don’t like the idea you should not whine as you can run the very same build you were running before by putting 4 points in dueling and grabbing sharper images were DE was located before my theoretical idea was used in this theoretical scenario.

Although I can tell you right now I’ve already come up with brilliant ideas on how to use that extra trait.
For example I could take my 20 20 0 30 0 build and instead run 10 15 0 30 10 or 10 15 10 30 0, or 10 15 10 0 30 build. and I know there is someone out there with a different way of looking at things that can make use of it in some way while still being perfectly viable and only losing out on around 2 crit chance and crit damage, and sharper images if they did not select that in their adept trait selection.

Increased viable diversity with my suggestion? Achieved!
Reduction in any builds/ play styles with my suggestion? NONE!

So tell me. How is my suggestion flawed again? Or do you have a better suggestion that you can also explain why it’s better?

Also seeing as you lack creativity, skill and overall information about mesmer in this game then go ahead and click my stream link and I’ll show you how to play mesmer

Chaos.3579:

Swish.2463:

What other traits in the master line are worth taking in builds? Dd is for pistol users, how many builds take pistol?

There’s a signet trait in there that’s laughable

Mantra defensive buff.. nah.. Mantra builds don’t need de anyway

As for an extra left over point.. No.. why use that to pick up a second minor when none of our secondary minors are worth picking up without investing fully into a line…

I get the feeling you’re very new to mesmer

I got the feeling YOUR new to mesmer.

The pistol trait is decent. Its solid it’s not more amazing than DE however it sure would be nice to be able to grab that without having to go 30 in dueling or to not take DE don’t you think?
Also the most likely weapon for Mesmers to get is main hand pistol if anet does such a thing and that would make the change I am suggesting all the more meaningful.

The signet trait is godly if you got your timing perfect and the right build for it.
(Although It takes skill and experience in both case’s you give off a sense of lacking.)

As for the mantra trait I agree with you. There are much better choices. But hay I’m willing to bet someone could make a mantra phantasm tank build with this!

Although the one thing you don’t get is that you don’t have to take a master trait. You can take a adept trait instead. For example what if you had blade training and phantasmal fury for a offhand sword build? There are tons of different choices now made viable, and affordable.

As for the leftover trait by having DE 1 trait cheaper. What you do with it is totally up to your imagination. Seeing as you lack that allow me to simply state that if you don’t like the idea you should not whine as you can run the very same build you were running before by putting 4 points in dueling and grabbing sharper images were DE was located before my theoretical idea was used in this theoretical scenario.

Although I can tell you right now I’ve already come up with brilliant ideas on how to use that extra trait.
For example I could take my 20 20 0 30 0 build and instead run 10 15 0 30 10 or 10 15 10 30 0, or 10 15 10 0 30 build. and I know there is someone out there with a different way of looking at things that can make use of it in some way while still being perfectly viable and only losing out on around 2 crit chance and crit damage, and sharper images if they did not select that in their adept trait selection.

Increased viable diversity with my suggestion? Achieved!
Reduction in any builds/ play styles with my suggestion? NONE!

So tell me. How is my suggestion flawed again? Or do you have a better suggestion that you can also explain why it’s better?

Also seeing as you lack creativity, skill and overall information about mesmer in this game then go ahead and click my stream link and I’ll show you how to play mesmer

kittenmm. shots have been fired! lol chaos.

Anyway, youre idea looks feasible. It will up the diversity in a sense.

But I do have a question for you.

Moving it to a minor would still make a requirement to trait into dueling right?
My point is that almost if not all mesmer builds absolutely require DE. so yea. no matter what happens people will still have to trait it.

To point it out.

Mesmers often don’t slot signets because they are so situational and often weak.

If you want my suggestion read my posts

All your brilliant builds can be achieved right now as all of the numbers you list off do not cap out the already available trait points. Where are you putting the extra that’s so game changing?

If your going to fly into a rage at least do your homework and math correctly…

I would also point out that raging and shooting down any other arguments made by anyone else by just blindly stating that you are right because you are right isn’t conducive to further discussion and a huge turn off for further replies and possible better.ideas.

Check your attitude if you aim to be taken seriously and actually add to these type of threads and be willing to look at others options objectively.

That’s the last reply and acknowledgement you’ll be receiving from me tho, the bridge.is burnt.

Signets are only weak when you slot 1-2 of them untrained. When you have enough of them traited in the right build and enough skill to use that build, it’s very very effective.
However seeing as it’s not a meta-type build, and judging from your wording of how you would describe signet builds I would say that you either lack the experience to play it or don’t know how to even make it. Sooo l2p before you even bother coming in the forums?

Also YOU do the math when you read my arguments.
In a normal 20 20 0 0 30 build for example you only really have 1 selectable trait as the other is always going to be deceptive evasion. By MOVING DE what can u do then?
insert imagination.

With my idea of moving deceptive evasion to were sharper images is it increases that number of selectable traits to 2.

In addition if I had a build such as 10 15 15 0 30 without my suggestion the build would NOT have deceptive evasion. And thus would be unviable. While with it, it opens up a lot of different build options.

But HAY maybe DE should be moved to adept minor trait. Who knows

StickerHappy.8052:

But I do have a question for you.

Moving it to a minor would still make a requirement to trait into dueling right?
My point is that almost if not all mesmer builds absolutely require DE. so yea. no matter what happens people will still have to trait it.

I don’t get what your point is?
Its a good thing that we have all our staples in 1 trait line.
Unless you would prefer having deceptive evasion in chaos, vigor on crit in dom and crit damage in inspiration instead of dueling.

= congrats your staples are NOT in the same tree……oh and diversity= Destroyed.

The ONLY issue with DE were it is, is simply that it takes away your choice of a selectable trait. Not because it’s the best trait in the tree. Instead because it is a necessity for a viable build in this game.

DE will always have a trait requirement. So would you prefer having it in another tree costing you at least 10-20 trait points extra thus losing out on some crit chance and crit damage without a choice? or keep everything that you need in 1 lovely pile….your choice

Also shots fired. But I did not shoot first :P

@ swish
“I get the feeling your new to mesmer”

This made me laugh XD.

I don’t like ignorant egotistical players. So get out of the forum arguments you don’t truly understand until you l2p. OR watch your mouth and don’t start fights out of ignorance. I got plenty of better things to do then waste my time trying to explain things 1 letter at a time to players that annoy me on the forums.

Chaos.3579:

StickerHappy.8052:

But I do have a question for you.

Moving it to a minor would still make a requirement to trait into dueling right?
My point is that almost if not all mesmer builds absolutely require DE. so yea. no matter what happens people will still have to trait it.

I don’t get what your point is?
Its a good thing that we have all our staples in 1 trait line.
Unless you would prefer having deceptive evasion in chaos, vigor on crit in dom and crit damage in inspiration instead of dueling.

= congrats your staples are NOT in the same tree……oh and diversity= Destroyed.

The ONLY issue with DE were it is, is simply that it takes away your choice of a selectable trait. Not because it’s the best trait in the tree. Instead because it is a necessity for a viable build in this game.

DE will always have a trait requirement. So would you prefer having it in another tree costing you at least 10-20 trait points extra thus losing out on some crit chance and crit damage without a choice? or keep everything that you need in 1 lovely pile….your choice

Also shots fired. But I did not shoot first :P

@ swish
“I get the feeling your new to mesmer”

This made me laugh XD.

I don’t like ignorant egotistical players. So get out of the forum arguments you don’t truly understand until you l2p. OR watch your mouth and don’t start fights out of ignorance. I got plenty of better things to do then waste my time trying to explain things 1 letter at a time to players that annoy me on the forums.

Oh my point is, I mean for example i would like to build a full lockdown build with both power block and CI.

The need for DE is too great making this build not feasible, i mean yeah you could work with it but it would be tougher because of the lack of DE.

Im saying is that, DE in its state right now is almost needed on all mesmer builds, which in a sense also kills diversity.

But hey, im not against your suggestion or anything, I think its a great step for diversity.

Swish.2463:

To point it out.

Mesmers often don’t slot signets because they are so situational and often weak.

If you want my suggestion read my posts

All your brilliant builds can be achieved right now as all of the numbers you list off do not cap out the already available trait points. Where are you putting the extra that’s so game changing?

If your going to fly into a rage at least do your homework and math correctly…

I would also point out that raging and shooting down any other arguments made by anyone else by just blindly stating that you are right because you are right isn’t conducive to further discussion and a huge turn off for further replies and possible better.ideas.

Check your attitude if you aim to be taken seriously and actually add to these type of threads and be willing to look at others options objectively.

That’s the last reply and acknowledgement you’ll be receiving from me tho, the bridge.is burnt.

No offense but you are wrong. Signets are particularly powerful. The primary reason why people dont slot them in because The blurred inscriptions trait competes with DE with the major slot. you have to go 30 into dueling to get them both.

Lets take example signet of Midnight in a signet build.

24 sec cd, cleanses 1 condition, Aoe blind, 1 sec Invulnerable, Stun breaker.

If you wanna test its potential you can duel me. I use a signet interrupt condi build.

StickerHappy.8052:

Swish.2463:

To point it out.

Mesmers often don’t slot signets because they are so situational and often weak.

If you want my suggestion read my posts

All your brilliant builds can be achieved right now as all of the numbers you list off do not cap out the already available trait points. Where are you putting the extra that’s so game changing?

If your going to fly into a rage at least do your homework and math correctly…

I would also point out that raging and shooting down any other arguments made by anyone else by just blindly stating that you are right because you are right isn’t conducive to further discussion and a huge turn off for further replies and possible better.ideas.

Check your attitude if you aim to be taken seriously and actually add to these type of threads and be willing to look at others options objectively.

That’s the last reply and acknowledgement you’ll be receiving from me tho, the bridge.is burnt.

No offense but you are wrong. Signets are particularly powerful. The primary reason why people dont slot them in because The blurred inscriptions trait competes with DE with the major slot. you have to go 30 into dueling to get them both.

Lets take example signet of Midnight in a signet build.

24 sec cd, cleanses 1 condition, Aoe blind, 1 sec Invulnerable, Stun breaker.

If you wanna test its potential you can duel me. I use a signet interrupt condi build.

^ my point EXACLY. Well at least the part were its hard to get the specific traits without overspending points.

Also swish apparently misunderstood my entire suggestion. Apparently he thought my suggestion was adding another trait point XD.

Read next time swish.

StickerHappy.8052:

Oh my point is, I mean for example i would like to build a full lockdown build with both power block and CI.

The need for DE is too great making this build not feasible, i mean yeah you could work with it but it would be tougher because of the lack of DE.

Im saying is that, DE in its state right now is almost needed on all mesmer builds, which in a sense also kills diversity.

But hey, im not against your suggestion or anything, I think its a great step for diversity.

Well I suppose the only feasible solution then would be placing DE In adept minor instead of master minor.

As well as placing sharpener images in adept selectable trait section, and critical infusion in master adept.
That would allow you to run 30, 5-10,30,?,?

In any case deceptive evasion will always have a cost in order to have it. So it should remain were the crit chance, vigor, and the rest of our solid staples are.

StickerHappy.8052:

I think the main issue here is the whole mesmer mechanic is too dependent on clone production and clones in general.

Shatter needs clones
Death trait needs clones
Condis need clones for the simple fact that clone AA deal conditions

Clones are also needed for body blocking and a little bit of misdirection

I think the mesmer needs some serious revamps in major departments.

As I’ve said, Mesmer is too reliant on DE

but we also have subpar Utilities Thats why in every build you see common utilities over and over again.

I think that’s just your perception. I’ve successfully played a Mesmer condi build without DE. All it takes is for you to figure out how else you’ll be creating clones.

Dirame.8521:

StickerHappy.8052:

I think the main issue here is the whole mesmer mechanic is too dependent on clone production and clones in general.

Shatter needs clones
Death trait needs clones
Condis need clones for the simple fact that clone AA deal conditions

Clones are also needed for body blocking and a little bit of misdirection

I think the mesmer needs some serious revamps in major departments.

As I’ve said, Mesmer is too reliant on DE

but we also have subpar Utilities Thats why in every build you see common utilities over and over again.

I think that’s just your perception. I’ve successfully played a Mesmer condi build without DE. All it takes is for you to figure out how else you’ll be creating clones.

I dont wanna sound arrogant or anything but, would you like to put that build to test against me? I mean yeah i tried running without DE, in hotjoin it worked decent, also against unsuspecting foes, but when i go against higher rated matches and fellow mesmers from OMFG, running without DE is really hard, its like saying “Hey! Im here! hit me!” I feel so naked without it.

But again i do apologize for sounding like a scrub but I wanna see how you do it, maybe i can learn from you too! :p

Chaos.3579:

StickerHappy.8052:

Oh my point is, I mean for example i would like to build a full lockdown build with both power block and CI.

The need for DE is too great making this build not feasible, i mean yeah you could work with it but it would be tougher because of the lack of DE.

Im saying is that, DE in its state right now is almost needed on all mesmer builds, which in a sense also kills diversity.

But hey, im not against your suggestion or anything, I think its a great step for diversity.

Well I suppose the only feasible solution then would be placing DE In adept minor instead of master minor.

As well as placing sharpener images in adept selectable trait section, and critical infusion in master adept.
That would allow you to run 30, 5-10,30,?,?

In any case deceptive evasion will always have a cost in order to have it. So it should remain were the crit chance, vigor, and the rest of our solid staples are.

This is not feasible. you have 75 trait points :p

Chaos.3579:

StickerHappy.8052:

Oh my point is, I mean for example i would like to build a full lockdown build with both power block and CI.

The need for DE is too great making this build not feasible, i mean yeah you could work with it but it would be tougher because of the lack of DE.

Im saying is that, DE in its state right now is almost needed on all mesmer builds, which in a sense also kills diversity.

But hey, im not against your suggestion or anything, I think its a great step for diversity.

Well I suppose the only feasible solution then would be placing DE In adept minor instead of master minor.

As well as placing sharpener images in adept selectable trait section, and critical infusion in master adept.
That would allow you to run 30, 5-10,30,?,?

In any case deceptive evasion will always have a cost in order to have it. So it should remain were the crit chance, vigor, and the rest of our solid staples are.

I think you won’t be able to put DE anywhere that doesn’t restrict build diversity. Instead I think underused talents in other trees should be reworked to create clones too.

StickerHappy.8052:

This is not feasible. you have 75 trait points :p

No its 70 of the old trait points (I’m using the old point system because I’m old school that way). I put 5-10 points in dueling because that’s the min / max points you can put there considering 60 points have already been spent maxing domination and chaos.

However if you don’t understand the old trait system then allow me to convert it.

You will be running 6, 1-2, 6, ?, ? Viably. With 60/70 or 12/14 points used maxing domination and chaos, and assuming my idea comes in to effect and you grab deceptive evasion (which in this scenario is dueling adept minor trait) then you will use a total of 65/70 points used with 5 left over. OR 13/14 used with 1 left over.

Question marks are there simply to illustrate the possibility that you can possibly place a point there IF you only place 1 point in dueling, Unless you place 2 points in dueling.

Hence the 1-2, or 5-10. Numbers depending what point system you use.

GG

Chaos you and I have some unfinished dueling business.

Also, I like Pyros trait suggestion the best. The best way to deal with DE is to add more alternative forms of clone production, IMO. DE wouldn’t be so dominant if other trait lines offered a way to produce clones more rapidly.

Imagine if Wastrels Punishment spawned a clone on the enemy per interrupt. Suddenly lockdown Mesmer could go 6/2/6 or 6/2/0/0/6 without feeling screwed over.

I wouldn’t mind sword main-hand creating an illusion on its chain 3 of the auto attack. Clone pops up and hits the opponent at the same time as you do, meaning that you remove a total of 2 boons or do even more increased damage if the opponent has no boons – also giving you a clone to shatter if you’d like.

Would look cool as well.

Part of the reason DE is so so so strong is simply because its an “ON DEMAND” clone generation.

We need to execute shatters when and where we see fit. To help counter what our enemy is doing, or take advantage when our enemy is not in the best position/state.

So we need to shatter at a moments notice. That’s what DE (and IP) do for us. Just adding a trait that produces a clone when we interrupt (or some other event) is not going to replace DE. It might make it a little less painful to not have it. But it will not replace it.

- swap Deceptive Evasion with Critical Infusion – this way core skill will be available for 1 point and skill which is improving it considerably for 4 points – this makes more sense IMHO

- change animation of mesmer dodging from jump & summon clone into teleport – ie. mesmer is replaced with clone while he is teleported to the doge endpoint so it is actually usable as deception against players

Wouldn’t the way to solve the DE issue be to make Illusionary Persona baseline instead? This means that you can shatter anytime and don’t need to waste a dodge for it and don’t need DE?