Guild Wars 2

This has bothered me for a long time now. I know you guys are not going to like what I’m about to said and I am sorry if this is something that has been said before (I can’t imagine that it hasn’t).

Anyone care to discuss/debate why Mesmers should be able to just spam illusions (with no internal cooldown) and invisibility in PvP?

I am no mesmer so feel free to correct me if I have said anything incorrectly. I do know that Stealth is not spammable (at least I think) but the combination with multiple stealth abilities and along with perma clones… is this really good class design?

Let down the flood gates.. I want to discuss this with you mesmers for your input.

This is a dirty, dirty job, but someone must do it, and as I like the mesmer community I will go ahead as a public service:

Clone Generation:
- 4 in dueling causes a clone to be generated on dodge; only spammable in so far as dodging is spammable.
-Various weapon skills produce clones, non of these skills are spammable as all have cd’s, the minimum of which you will see is treated staff phase retreat at about 5 sec, or if you let the mesmer sit back and auto attack you with scepter you will see a clone generated every third attack (but I’m sure you’re not talking about this, which never happens).
-Various weapon skills produce phantasms. These actually do damage and are on much longer cool downs, around 20 sec depending on traits. Again, not spammable.

Stealth: We have 4 possible means for stealth, and nobody takes all of them, so max you see three, but really only two have short enough cd’s and these are the ones you are seeing used in combat:
-Decoy, a utility skill with a 40 sec cd (34 traited) that puts the mesmer in stealth and produces a clone. Not spammable.
-Torch #1, puts mesmer in stealth, 30 sec cd (24 treated)
-Viel: utility that puts a line on the ground that stealths allies who walk through it, 90 sec cd. Need I say not spammable?
-Elite Skill mass invis: 1 3/4 sec cast time, 90 sec cd, stealth for 5 seconds. Easy counter here is to interrupt the giant cast with a huge purple glow. Not spammable.

So, all of this taken together does give mesmer steady clone generation if they trait for it, which most do, because clones/illusions are our resource/a primary part of our damage similar to adrenaline and life force.

I hope that clears it up a little for you.

Edit: Ah I see that many others have joined in here while I was typing this. I also see you are asking if this is good class design. Let me answer that for you: No, it is not. In fact what it is is a failed attempt to bring a unique and awesome class from GW1 and shoehorn it into some, shall we say less than optimally intelligent, person’s vision for class combat and balance in GW2. A class built around counter play, control, and punishing button spamming bad players (I assume this describes you) got replaced with a class that survives by producing ai pets to exploit a horrible targeting ui system in order to win. If you could hit a button and instantly target the last player that hurt you instead of the last enemy (ai or player), all mesmers would die quickly and nobody would cry.

Answer a couple of questions first

What is the problem with clone creation, as you see it?

What is the problem with “spammable” stealth on mesmer, as you see it?

Apparition.1576:

why Mesmers should be able to just spam illusions (with no internal cooldown) and invisibility in PvP?

Well, let me ask a few questions. I’ll assume that when you say ‘spam illusions’, you actually mean ‘spam clones using deceptive evasion’. When you say ‘spam invisibility’, I actually assume that you’re a bad player, but I’ll get to that later.

So, about the ‘spamming illusions’. What exactly gives you trouble about this? I mean, clones don’t really do anything on their own. Are you having trouble identifying the real mesmer? Are you getting killed by shatter combos? What about this ‘illusion spam’ seems unbalanced to you?

As for spamming stealth, the reason why this makes me assume you’re a bad player is because a good player recognizes several things about stealth. Firstly, a mesmer using every stealth skill off cooldown in PvP will never accomplish anything at all, since PvP is all capture point based. Secondly, a mesmer using every stealth skill off cooldown will end up managing about 25 seconds of stealth every 90 seconds….and have a horrible build. Is it really that hard for you to kill the mesmer in the 65 seconds they’re visible?

@Fay

My thread please don’t deviate from my question. If you have a question at least answer mine first or create your own thread.

@Rose

The problem is that there is no internal cooldown for this ability, which means they are spammable. I believe that is bad game design and wanted to get your perspective.

Apparition.1576:

@Fay

My thread please don’t deviate from my question. If you have a question at least answer mine first or create your own thread.

Fine, I’ll answer your questions, but you won’t like my answers until you give me something to work with.

No. There is no problem with clones being spammable or mesmer having stealth skills. You just need to learn to play.

Apparition.1576:

@Rose

The problem is that there is no internal cooldown for this ability, which means they are spammable. I believe that is bad game design and wanted to get your perspective.

Yeah, see, this response doesn’t make sense, because it’s circular logic.

“I don’t like how this stuff is spammable.” …. “Why is spammable a problem?” …“It’s a probablem because it’s spammable.”

See the issue here?

@Fay

By that logic.. why have cooldowns for any skills period?… is that seriously your argument?

As fay has already pointed out invis is NOT spammable, and clones are a resource that mesmers utilize for skills. Clones have very little damage even when traited for bleeds and on death effects. Their only actually a threat if the mesmer is playing a shatter setup and even then landing a shatter is incredibly difficult and has what may be the most obvious tell in the game (clones running at you). Fay brought up many good points and asked you what it is you specifically found imbalanced, so that we can better assist you. Until you state more clearly what it is you have an issue with it will be hard to have any type of debate.

Also you cannot have more then 3 illusions active at any given time. So even if they had no cooldown (which they do), it does the mesmer no good to continously spam their clones when they already have 3 out.

Apparition.1576:

@Rose

The problem is that there is no internal cooldown for this ability, which means they are spammable. I believe that is bad game design and wanted to get your perspective.

See, the internal cool down is endurance.

Also, as clones are only good at fueling our shatters, if it had a internal cool down the trait would be useless given it is mainly used to either give use constant clones to punish those not levelheaded enough to spot the real mesmer or to fuel out shatter, which requires 3 illusions to be fully effective. In the case of the latter, we need to either use another skill or a sigil[endurance on swap] to get the most of our mechanic. Clones are incredibly weak and die fast, so if we plan on shattering we want to make clones fast and shatter immediately. If we can’t do that, it will break most shatter builds.

You can’t just say “Its bad design because you can spam it.”

Also, clones aren’t “spammable.” Auto attacks are spammable, thief skills are somewhat spammable. Dodge-clones are limited to your amount of dodges, Mesmer’s dodges are limited by endurance, like any other class.

Most Mesmer run 2-3 invis, btw. The problem you’re having just comes from lack of experience versus Mesmer, not from bad design.

As I have already pointed out “I do know that Stealth is not spammable (at least I think)” that is why I did not respond #failure to read my entire question

I am aware that clones are capped at three as far as dealing very little damage we know thats not true. Necro’s minions have cooldowns, so does just about every other skill in this games.. clones do not.

Apparition.1576:

As I have already pointed out “I do know that Stealth is not spammable (at least I think)” that is why I did not respond #failure to read my entire question

I am aware that clones are capped at three as far as dealing very little damage we know thats not true. Necro’s minions have cooldowns, so does just about every other skill in this games.. clones do not.

Neither do thieves. =/

Can someone explain this “no cooldown” thing? Did Anet ninja patch mesmers to use initiative and have infinite endurance?

In order for clones to actually do noticeable damage you have to stand in between all 3 and the mesmer and let them auto attack you down. If you let that happen then it is simply an issue of not understanding that you can walk back 600 yards and we cant do much. Clones are slow moving and their auto attacks are even slower. With the exception of someone who afks and gets autoed down, they are in no way a threat without shatter. You may be confusing clones with phantasms, but that is a whole different debate.

Apparition.1576:

As I have already pointed out “I do know that Stealth is not spammable (at least I think)” that is why I did not respond #failure to read my entire question

I love it though. See, first you complain that spamming clones and invisibility is overpowered. Then, in an attempt to forestall the obvious reaction of people noting that you’re wrong and bad, you say that ‘yes, I know invis isn’t spammable, so please don’t say that as an argument even though it’s true and shows that my original complaint is wrong’.

Waynesyaboy.5806:

In order for clones to actually do noticeable damage you have to stand in between all 3 and the mesmer and let them auto attack you down.

Even if you stand in a pile of Clones, you won’t take much damage. My Auto Attack does about 1500 a hit, my clones do 15 damage. They literally do 100x less than a single auto attack.

Phantasms, yes, but they have significant cooldowns and crumble to any AoE. Hit one once or twice and the Mesmer DPS will drop off the map. It’s also impossible to confuse them with the Mesmer due to them being pink and transparent.

They need to separate pvp and pve balance before they even touch Clones. In PvE Phantasms are 100% required for DPS and you need all three out to match the DPS of most other classes (aoe fights are sad times) while clones are just ‘filler’ for when you get another Phantasm. Making it any harder to get them out would make the class even worse at pve, something it does not need.

“Anyone care to discuss/debate why Mesmers should be able to just spam illusions (with no internal cooldown) and invisibility in PvP?”

This is where most of the confusion is coming from, you may want to edit your post to better reflect the topic you would like to discuss.

You’re welcome.

Pyro is turning into a bitter old man that throws cats at noobs.

“Git off my lawn and L2P!” =P

Cut him some slack in his OP he admitted his ignorance to the class and unlike most he didn’t change into the forum demanding nerfs

ToxicToothpick.4396:

Waynesyaboy.5806:

In order for clones to actually do noticeable damage you have to stand in between all 3 and the mesmer and let them auto attack you down.

Even if you stand in a pile of Clones, you won’t take much damage. My Auto Attack does about 1500 a hit, my clones do 15 damage. They literally do 100x less than a single auto attack.

Phantasms, yes, but they have significant cooldowns and crumble to any AoE. Hit one once or twice and the Mesmer DPS will drop off the map. It’s also impossible to confuse them with the Mesmer due to them being pink and transparent.

They need to separate pvp and pve balance before they even touch Clones. In PvE Phantasms are 100% required for DPS and you need all three out to match the DPS of most other classes (aoe fights are sad times) while clones are just ‘filler’ for when you get another Phantasm. Making it any harder to get them out would make the class even worse at pve, something it does not need.

True but i am talking about PU condition builds traited for bleeds and staff clones which apply burning, as that is what actually does damage and seems to be what the op is upset about.

MSFone.3026:

-Various weapon skills produce clones, non of these skills are spammable as all have cd’s, the minimum of which you will see is treated staff phase retreat at about 5 sec, or if you let the mesmer sit back and auto attack you with scepter you will see a clone generated every third attack (but I’m sure you’re not talking about this, which never happens).

Actually, as far as I know, the minor illusion trait and weapon CD traits do NOT stack, so the lowest you can get phase retreat to is 8 sec CD.

Anyway, it’s clear the OP is not reading everyone’s answers. Not only is mesmer clone generation not spammable, but it requires us to use a dodge (one of the best defenses all classes have) in order to generate one.

Furthermore, clones are really only a threat when shattered, and these shatter skills have similar functionality to skills of other classes, EXCEPT ours requires clones to use.

@ Waynesyaboy

Or the alternative, you can actually read my entire question. Edit your answers properly to refute, or properly discuss your answers in regards to my questions rather than derail.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Pyro is turning into a bitter old man that throws cats at noobs.

“Git off my lawn and L2P!” =P

Cut him some slack in his OP he admitted his ignorance to the class and unlike most he didn’t change into the forum demanding nerfs

Half my snark came from the little wordplay with the complaint about spammable stealth. The other half came from…

@Fay

My thread please don’t deviate from my question. If you have a question at least answer mine first or create your own thread.

@ Waynesyaboy

Or the alternative, you can actually read my entire question. Edit your answers properly to refute, or properly discuss your answers in regards to my questions rather than derail.

@chaosmike

In the past 40 minutes I have made attempts to respond to anyone who addressed my concerns. Was this the response you were looking for? Its really hard to properly respond to miscellaneous posts that don’t address my concerns. Anytime, you deviate from a discussion you really invalidate your own responses..

Apparition.1576:

@ Waynesyaboy

Or the alternative, you can actually read my entire question. Edit your answers properly to refute, or properly discuss your answers in regards to my questions rather than derail.

Sigh again you stated outright that invis was spammable and asked to discuss why its ok. You then tried to make a note at the end claiming ignorance of the mechanic when 50% of your original question was asking us to tell you why we think “spammable invis” is ok.

All that aside, you now know that it isn’t and half of your question has been answered. To the other half, yes it is ok that clones are on a SHORT CD. Does anything else confuse you?

@OP
Seriously just try leveling a Mesmer. Or even just grab one and jump into PvP. We can try to explain on paper why it’s certainly not overpowered, but you will realize very quickly if you play one yourself.

Jump in, grab a build, and just play 10 games. I can guarantee you will understand the mechanics better. You can even add me and I’ll show you some basic rotations for the class.

Mesmer is a class that is very confusing to fight when you haven’t played one, or are new to the game. They can easily seem overwhelming at the beginning. However once you understand what is going on they will not seem overpowered, and you will have a much easier time fighting them.

@Dondagora

That is a valid argument in regards to the shatter. However, I still feel that clones should still be limited. For example, a Necro’s death shroud has an internal cooldown between uses but it also requires life force to access. This is not a limitless resource. The same logic applies to adrenaline for warriors.

Apparition.1576:

@chaosmike

In the past 40 minutes I have made attempts to respond to anyone who addressed my concerns..

I’m.. Pretty sure you responded everyone except the people who addressed your concerns, dude.

Edit: Ninja’d

Apparition.1576:

@Dondagora

That is a valid argument in regards to the shatter. However, I still feel that clones should still be limited. For example, a Necro’s death shroud has an internal cooldown between uses but it also requires life force to access. This is not a limitless resource. The same logic applies to adrenaline for warriors.

Life force gives a 2nd health bar and 5 new skills. Please do not even compare the two. clones do nothing but fuel shatters, do enough damage to offset regen boons, and “confuse” players who do not understand how the class works. when clones are strong enough/useful enough to warrant a high cd I am sure anet will reevaluate how ofent we can produce them, as it stands now they do too little to be on any type of long cd/icd.

Waynesyaboy.5806:

Apparition.1576:

@Dondagora

That is a valid argument in regards to the shatter. However, I still feel that clones should still be limited. For example, a Necro’s death shroud has an internal cooldown between uses but it also requires life force to access. This is not a limitless resource. The same logic applies to adrenaline for warriors.

Life force gives a 2nd health bar and 5 new skills. Please do not even compare the two. clones do nothing but fuel shatters, do enough damage to offset regen boons, and “confuse” players who do not understand how the class works. When clones are strong enough/useful enough to warrant a high cd I am sure anet will reevaluate how ofent we can produce them, as it stands now they do too little to be on any type of long cd/icd.

Apparition.1576:

@Dondagora

That is a valid argument in regards to the shatter. However, I still feel that clones should still be limited. For example, a Necro’s death shroud has an internal cooldown between uses but it also requires life force to access. This is not a limitless resource. The same logic applies to adrenaline for warriors.

What part of ‘clone summoning skills have cooldowns, and you can’t dodge endlessly’ doesn’t compute for you?

@Chaos: Now you know why I snarked. I have a good nose for obstinance.

If you think clones are spammable then you must also admit that dodge is spammable.

Since we all no that is not true, then your original statement is also false.

Clones have a definite limit/second as to how many can be made, and one must take time between their generation.

Decoy traited is 32 seconds.

Apparition.1576:

Anyone care to discuss/debate why Mesmers should be able to just spam illusions (with no internal cooldown) and invisibility in PvP?

They are not able to spam illusions and invisibility.

All illusion generating abilities have a cooldown (except scepter autoattack, but that one has an intrisecal cooldown since it’s a chain skill): weapon skills, utilities, clones on dodge (since you don’t have infinite endurance), all have cooldowns.

Same goes for stealth, as someone already mentioned.

1. Anet designs mesmer as a class that relies heavily on clones and phantasms.
2. For certain mesmer builds, e.g. shatter, clones are their main resource of doing damage and gain survivability. I hope you do notice that clones have very low health and do almost no damge themselves. If the clone generation speed is too slow, then other players can simply autoattack to destroy them, leaving mesmer with no other tricks to play.

I highly suggest u play a shatter mesmer yourself for at least 10 games and you should understand the class design a bit more.

Waynesyaboy.5806:

Also you cannot have more then 3 illusions active at any given time. So even if they had no cooldown (which they do), it does the mesmer no good to continously spam their clones when they already have 3 out.

That is not technically true.

If a mes has on ‘on clone death’ traits, when one more clone than 3 is made, the first clone made will explode. Some random and some not random effects will hit nearby enemies.

-To be clear, I don’t agree with the OP. I just wanted to point that out.

Apparition.1576:

@Dondagora

That is a valid argument in regards to the shatter. However, I still feel that clones should still be limited. For example, a Necro’s death shroud has an internal cooldown between uses but it also requires life force to access. This is not a limitless resource. The same logic applies to adrenaline for warriors.

Wait… lol are you trying to say that I should have to BUILD-UP the ability to pop clones? That is hilarious.

You had many options for your…let’s call it a ‘plight’.

Let’s mention what you could of done?

1. You could of gone to your own forums and asked how to beat mesmers. (they would of told you and probably laughed at you moreso than us here.)

2. You could of asked the mesmer community how clone generation and stealth work? You would of got many friendly answers.

3. You could of QQ’d on your class forums. They would of just made fun of you.

4. You could of played one. That is a slow answer but you would have completely understand the class then.

5. You could of asked us here on the Mesmer forums, ’How do I beat mesmers?" People would of given you ALL kinds of tips, pointers, maybe even knew your class and offered spec/gear advice.

But what you did, you came and called for a full class rework on our forums and called mesmers OP. Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong.

That was a huge mistake because , while these forums are filled with the most friendly and helpful player base, they are imo the most intelligent players in game. And more importantly, right now, most of us are very angry due to the plethora of nerfs and unfixed bugs.

Apparition.1576:

Anyone care to discuss/debate why Mesmers should be able to just spam illusions (with no internal cooldown) and invisibility in PvP?

But the combination with multiple stealth abilities and along with perma clones… is this really good class design?

Being as serious as I can be…..you are asking a question from an assumption that is untrue. We cannot spam clones.

I can make a combination of three clones/phantasms. Make one more and it just makes one blow up. I can’t carry them from one fight to another like a necros pets.

I can make a bunch of clones in fight against a target but not before a fight without a enemy targeted and I believe in range. But that isn’t the same as spamming is it? And they don’t do much.

If I do make extra clones (more than 3) the extra will blow up and might put some weak effects or bleeds on you if I have the clone on death trait. Having extra energy from sigils gives me more energy for more dodges, if I have clone on dodge=more clones.

Is it really a good class design? I’m not sure really. Our class used to be decent.
If all my clones confuse you in fights, then sure, its a great class design

Is it a good class design that warriors can hit like trucks and run away as soon as they feel threatened?

@EnderzShadow

Is it a good class design that warriors can hit like trucks and run away as soon as they feel threatened?

Meanwhile you can hit like a truck and just go invisible multiple times… =) Very bad comparison.

If by truck you meant a hot wheel then yes. Mesmer hit like a toy truck. Our damage is tied to our phantasms. We have no sprint speed unless using runes. The invis is a target drop. If you are invis you are not doing damage. Take that time to kill our phantasm means 0 damage done.

So you admitted to not knowing the class but start a thread titled called mesmer clone/inviz abuse. Why don’t you learn the class and maybe you’ll understand the intricacies that mesmers face. This is a trash thread barely disguised by you wanting to “discuss” mesmer mechanics. Rather you wanted to vent yes? Well vent away. You will continue to lose to even average mesmer players if you dont bother learning how the class works.

Apparition.1576:

@EnderzShadow

Is it a good class design that warriors can hit like trucks and run away as soon as they feel threatened?

Meanwhile you can hit like a wet noodle and still get hit in stealth multiple times

^Fixed

Since this thread has repeatedly derailed it is now closed.