Guild Wars 2

Edit: In fact, a request to please let this thread die – I really don’t want any of what I’ve put in the OP to happen – the only reason I made this thread was for the purpose of “fair trade/exchange” given I’m very concerned MtD will not be fixed and left in this pathetic state.

Disclaimer:
.
.
In all honesty I don’t want any of this to happen – I just want to see MtD restored.

My reason for this thread is sacrificing something to get MtD back, because I don’t believe Anet will simply restore it without fair trade.

Ok? Please understand my irritation in this thread is directed at the MtD nerf, so any unpleasant language or stubborn ideas is as a result of that.
.
.
.
.
.
The nerf to MtD is misguided and incentivising boring, passive play for mesmer condition builds.

We have several main ways to apply conditions:
1. Auto attacks and clone attacks (staff/scepter clones)
2. Phantasm attacks (iduelist)
3. Other weapon skills (confusing images, icounter… yeah… not many options here)
3. Interrupts (mistrust)
4. Shatters (torment/confusion on shatter)

By far the single most passive and boring option is number 1. I find it even more stupid now that it is one of the most strongest options in condition play.

Propositions

1. Nerf clones to NOT apply conditions. Yes, I’m serious – zero conditions.
2. Nerf iCounter to 4 stacks of torment for 6 seconds.
3. Revert MtD to 2 stacks for 6 seconds.
4. Move MtD to Grandmaster and Malicious Sorcery down to Master tier (force a choice between MtD and Ineptitude).
5. Restore the “new” Confusing Combatants in Duelling.
6. Make Sharper Images also apply to the mesmer.
7. If necessary buff staff and scepter auto attack condition stacks to make up for nerf to clones.
8. Buff certain phantasms to be more useful in condition builds (ie iWarlock, iMage (still)…).

Alternative Proposition:

1. Buff Cry of Frustration to deal one stack of torment baseline. Leave everything else alone.

I prefer the first option, but the second might be a quick bandaid fix that could help.

We should be pushing to shatter in order to deal damage, or to use our own weapon skills (including auto attack), phantasms and interrupts – not to sit back and let clones do it for us. It is the most ridiculously passive and boring method of play for condition builds on mesmer and I can’t believe it still exists and traits like MtD are nerfed.

I also find it stupid that iCounter does more single target torment on a ridiculously low cooldown than a 4 illusion shatter. That should not happen. You deal more torment over time by letting scepter clones auto attack and regularly landing iCounter than by mindwracking and CoFing every time they’re off cooldown…

Another problem – pigeonholing of weapons.
A brilliant thing about the patch preview was, together with the vulnerability change, the prospect of using NON-native condition weapons such as Greatsword and Mainhand Sword in condition builds – thanks to Confusing Combatants among other things. Now this is ruined and we are pretty much forced to use Scepter or Staff in a condition build. I find that a bad thing.

As for PU – well nerf the kitten trait then. Don’t take it out on the wrong trait (in this case MtD) because certain builds and traits are broken and overpowered when used in combination with each other.

You… you do realize they didnt nerf MtD right? All the threads complaining when the nerf might happen rejoiced… uh…

Riranor.6315:

You… you do realize they didnt nerf MtD right? All the threads complaining when the nerf might happen rejoiced… uh…

Er – did you see the follow up and the other huge thread on the first page? They did, I’m in game now, it is one stack.

Riranor.6315:

You… you do realize they didnt nerf MtD right? All the threads complaining when the nerf might happen rejoiced… uh…

They nerfed it a few hours after the initial patch

Whoa okay. This is my first time logging in since initial patch, the kitten.

Dungeons require sustained damage
Anet: No you have to shatter constantly!

PvP shatters/burst work and is often better then sustained.
Anet: No you have to camp in stealth and let your clones attack!

And people wonder why we accuse Anet of not actually playing the game.

Curunen.8729:

Propositions

1. Nerf clones to NOT apply conditions. Yes, I’m serious – zero conditions.

In other words, eliminate other builds to make your preferences the only viable choices.

Then use the word “stupid” to describe alternatives because, you know, it would be stupid for anyone not to see things your way.

Majic.4801:

Curunen.8729:

Propositions

1. Nerf clones to NOT apply conditions. Yes, I’m serious – zero conditions.

In other words, eliminate other builds to make your preferences the only viable choices.

Then use the word “stupid” to describe alternatives because, you know, it would be stupid for anyone not to see things your way.

Clones don’t do power damage – I don’t see anyone complaining about that in power builds. What is wrong with the idea that they don’t do condition damage?

Instead of refuting my opinion just for the sake of it, please can you give me an example of where relying on clones to deal condition damage requires any skillful or interesting play, especially if using DE. From where I’m standing you just pop them out, sit back and let them apply their conditions – I find that stupid, yes.

I thought this patch was meant to give more reasons to shatter, so taking all damage away from clones should promote more active play using phantasms, shatters, interrupts and personal weapon skills to apply damage.

I’m trying to give reasons to revert MtD because currently it is unplayable without fully traited scepter to make up for the pathetic stacks.

Majic.4801:

Curunen.8729:

Propositions

1. Nerf clones to NOT apply conditions. Yes, I’m serious – zero conditions.

In other words, eliminate other builds to make your preferences the only viable choices.

Then use the word “stupid” to describe alternatives because, you know, it would be stupid for anyone not to see things your way.

my thoughts exactly

salarasul.4190:

Majic.4801:

Curunen.8729:

Propositions

1. Nerf clones to NOT apply conditions. Yes, I’m serious – zero conditions.

In other words, eliminate other builds to make your preferences the only viable choices.

Then use the word “stupid” to describe alternatives because, you know, it would be stupid for anyone not to see things your way.

my thoughts exactly

Likewise, please give reasons if you want me to understand your point of view.

I’m finally having some decent success playing shatter. If you’re bored please go away but don’t start asking for nerfs.

It DOES NOT make you a “cool” Mesmer to advocate for making the class harder to play.

Or how about we revert MtD, leave clones alone and Anet stops pandering to casual hot joiners who don’t know how to dodge or put condi cleanse on their build?

Ithilwen.1529:

I’m finally having some decent success playing shatter. If you’re bored please go away but don’t start asking for nerfs.

It DOES NOT make you a “cool” Mesmer to advocate for making the class harder to play.

Please understand the point of this thread – it’s about sacrificing something to gain something back, because I don’t believe Anet will restore MtD without an option to curb condition application elsewhere.

Levetty.1279:

Or how about we revert MtD, leave clones alone and Anet stops pandering to casual hot joiners who don’t know how to dodge or put condi cleanse on their build?

I would prefer this of course – but I’m trying to give another option to make it more attractive to restore MtD.

Or we could stop being elitists and realize that Mesmer has finally been built with some sustain.

@Levetty I suggest you go with a main hand weapon only if you don’t feel challenged enough. Mesmer has waited way too long to be able to play shatter without being a fanatic with high level game skills.

A truly skillful player would want the class accessible to all, not be threatened that the class is now a bit more playable in shatter mode.

Curunen.8729:

Clones don’t do power damage – I don’t see anyone complaining about that in power builds. What is wrong with the idea that they don’t do condition damage?

Because conditions builds that rely on clones to apply conditions do rely on condition damage.

This is, in fact, the very thing you complained about when you said it’s “even more stupid now that it is one of the most strongest options in condition play.”

If you don’t care for it, that’s fine, but I hope you can understand why poisoning the well isn’t going to promote constructive discussion.

Ithilwen.1529:

Or we could stop being elitists and realize that Mesmer has finally been built with some sustain.

@Levetty I suggest you go with a main hand weapon only if you don’t feel challenged enough. Mesmer has waited way too long to be able to play shatter without being a fanatic with high level game skills.

A truly skillful player would want the class accessible to all, not be threatened that the class is now a bit more playable in shatter mode.

Have you tried playing condition shatter without scepter today?

Did you read what I said about simply preferring MtD was restored and nothing else done?

This is nothing to do with elitism, please don’t mention that word – it’s about trading something to get something back, given condition shatter has been horribly nerfed anyway.

Majic.4801:

Curunen.8729:

Clones don’t do power damage – I don’t see anyone complaining about that in power builds. What is wrong with the idea that they don’t do condition damage?

Because conditions builds that rely on clones to apply conditions do rely on condition damage.

This is, in fact, the very thing you complained about when you said it’s “even more stupid now that it is one of the most strongest options in condition play.”

If you don’t care for it, that’s fine, but I hope you can understand why poisoning the well isn’t going to promote constructive discussion.

You’ve just stated the obvious – does that make using clones to apply conditions skillful or interesting?

Just because clones are required to output decent conditions now doesn’t mean there’s another way to rearrange the damage application to mirror that of power builds.

Did you read where I mentioned buffing mesmer autoattack condition application, phantasm condition application and condition traits such as sharper images and restoring confusing combatants?

In other words the loss of clone damage would be made up with condiion damage from you (the mesmer), phantasms, and skillful play via interrupts and shatters – so overall you should be able to output good levels of condition damage.

This would of course take detailed reworks of weapon skills and some traits, but I believe it would be for the better.

Actually if you check my “Glamour Girl” build (#shamelessplug ) You will find it’s condi shatter with Staff as the secondary.

I’m seeing confusion stacks as high as 10 at times and melted a ranger or two. Scepter is definitely the go-to weapon for condi but staff is no slouch.

Talking about “boring” and not challenging is stupid given ANET’s manifest propensity for nerfing Mesmer into the ground. I really don’t want that kind of talk on the forum.

Ithilwen.1529:

Actually if you check my “Glamour Girl” build (#shamelessplug ) You will find it’s condi shatter with Staff as the secondary.

I’m seeing confusion stacks as high as 10 at times and melted a ranger or two. Scepter is definitely the go-to weapon for condi but staff is no slouch.

Talking about “boring” and not challenging is stupid given ANET’s manifest propensity for nerfing Mesmer into the ground. I really don’t want that kind of talk on the forum.

Does it work without scepter? For example using Sword/Torch?

Personally I don’t like to be forced into one rigid weapon set to play condiiton – in this case Scepter/x plus Staff. Currently no other weapons are good enough.

Before the patch I could happily use Sword/Torch and Staff and output good damage thanks to 2 stacks on MtD.

Actually sword /torch would work. It wouldn’t be optimal, but it’d work. The key would be to shatter constantly for the heal and blind. I’m stacking confusion, so scepter is the natural choice. Sword / torch would work though if you kept the shatters coming.

Ithilwen.1529:

Actually sword /torch would work. It wouldn’t be optimal, but it’d work. The key would be to shatter constantly for the heal and blind. I’m stacking confusion, so scepter is the natural choice. Sword / torch would work though if you kept the shatters coming.

I am playing this http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgMF9AJcA-w~
currently in pvp with sword/torch + staff, rabid amulet, traveler runes and it’s not good enough.

I don’t think it’s only not optimal, but simply not good enough to play at all vs all the overpowered builds out there – you can barely scratch eles for example.

My only hope is Chrono with alacrity and continuous shatters, but I’ve learnt not to hope for anything now.

The Clone Wars

Curunen.8729:

You’ve just stated the obvious – does that make using clones to apply conditions skillful or interesting?

It is interesting to me, which is why I do it. As to whether or not it is skillful, I suppose that depends on one’s criteria, and under what circumstances they are applied.

I find using clones enjoyable, to the point that I almost never use phantasms. Not only that, I (gasp!) rarely use shatters, either, and don’t care to be pushed into them (or other class mechanics, for that matter) because I’ve found over the years that such things become boring in themselves after being needed over and over, fight after fight.

For you see, long before this latest patch, I relied extensively on clones to do damage, even back when I was rolling with dual swords (before that got nerfed). I even used the scepter when the scepter wasn’t cool.

I really like clones. A lot.

Clones are my trade. I am a cloner. My name is Majic the Cloner. I arrange, design and sell cloneries.*

If you don’t share my enthusiasm for the use of clones, I have no quarrel, but suggesting that they be nerfed and that their use to apply conditions is “stupid” puts us inevitably in diametric opposition.

In a broader sense, you have my sympathy if you’re finding condition play boring, and maybe there are constructive ways to change that. But inferring that something other Mesmers enjoy is “stupid” isn’t one of them.

I dont agree with either the premise or substance of your proposal, because I don’t think all Mesmers should be expected to suffer fewer options to appease one Mesmer.

…

* With apologies to Roger the Shrubber.

If you never use phantasms or shatters I can’t see how you’re build is effective anymore – I assume you also used things like Debilitating Dissipation in the past?

Would you be able to share your current build and playstyle so I can properly appreciate why you find it fun?

I find dodging to pop out clones, doing nothing and letting them deal damage is boring. You can’t pretend to be a clone because it doesn’t work – you’re instantly spotted vs any decent player so I don’t see a fun side to it. Of course I’d love the playstyle of pretending to be a clone if the game was designed to allow it…

You’re saying one mesmer – the essence of this thread is reverting the ridiculous MtD nerf which I know many people want, and my personal belief is Anet won’t do it unless we sacrifice condition application elsewhere in return.

Yes my suggestion of nerfing clones is probably only me, but of all the things I would personally trade to get MtD restored, this is at the top of the list. Why? Because clones deal zero power damage therefore it makes sense that they also deal zero condition damage. Unless you suggest that Anet restore clones to do a little bit of direct damage as they used to for a short while.

In all honesty I don’t want any of this to happen – I just want to see MtD restored.

I’m going to paste that in the OP just for anyone else reading this thread.

MtD is fine, sure they took some of torment out of us, but I still wreck pretty much everyone so it didn’t make that much of a difference to me… And uh, no, I don’t just let my clones attack, I shatter a lot.

Dan.8709:

MtD is fine, sure they took some of torment out of us, but I still wreck pretty much everyone so it didn’t make that much of a difference to me… And uh, no, I don’t just let my clones attack, I shatter a lot.

Do you use scepter or do you play without scepter?

Curunen.8729:

Dan.8709:

MtD is fine, sure they took some of torment out of us, but I still wreck pretty much everyone so it didn’t make that much of a difference to me… And uh, no, I don’t just let my clones attack, I shatter a lot.

Do you use scepter or do you play without scepter?

Honestly its a moot point because pre nerf MtD and scepter was still weaker then condie ele or the stupidly ott condie Engie.

Before attempting to bargain with the devs, I’d first like an explanation of why the MtD nerf makes sense to them on both a micro (looking just at Mesmer) and macro (looking at MtD compared to other classes) balancing scale.

This literally makes no sense to me. It pushes things back to condition passive play, and even that is sub par at this point…

MailMail.6534:

Before attempting to bargain with the devs, I’d first like an explanation of why the MtD nerf makes sense to them on both a micro (looking just at Mesmer) and macro (looking at MtD compared to other classes) balancing scale.

This literally makes no sense to me. It pushes things back to condition passive play, and even that is sub par at this point…

I’d like this too, but you’ve got a higher chance of receiving every precursor back to back in the MF than getting someone from Anet to explain the MtD nerf in a post in this forum. :p

Me And My Imaginary Friends

Curunen.8729:

If you never use phantasms or shatters I can’t see how you’re build is effective anymore – I assume you also used things like Debilitating Dissipation in the past?

Given how sweeping the last patch was, I’m still working on builds, and deciding whether I prefer the staff or the scepter. Yes, these are the go-to weapons for cloners (with the trident being the undisputed king of the seas), but since that’s by design, well, there it is.

And yes, Debiliating Dissipation was very important, as were all the traits that granted damage on clone destruction (not shattering), clones applying conditions on critical hits, traiting with Rabid gear so the clones could inherit the traits, and so on. Heck, I even used Confusion in PvE before it got buffed, which reminds me…

Before we go any further, I would like to point out that context is everything: I’m just a PvE player who mostly solos (let us now cue the adorably adolescent sneers that invariably emanate from some PvPers and dungeon runners so I can enjoy a good laugh). I will let slip that now and then I feel the urge to head to the Mists, and have great fun when I do, but mostly I just run around Tyria, happily slinging clones with a song in my heart, left and right, to and fro, all the livelong day.

If your concerns are centered on PvP, I doubt you’ll find anything I have to say relevant. But your proposal wouldn’t be limited to PvP, hence my objections.

As for effectiveness, that’s a matter of opinion. I play all the professions (I have 32 characters, four of each profession, and 27 lvl 80s at the moment, for background), but I consider one of my Mesmers to be my “main”, and my four Mesmers as a group get far more playtime than my other characters (though I play them a lot, too).

I consider my Mesmers to be far and away the most effective characters I have, but Your Mileage May Vary, of course.

Here’s why I feel that way (condensed and incomplete)…

The Practical Recursionist

Killing things with conditions is never fast, because by their nature, conditions take time to do damage. So anyone looking to the Mesmer or any other class for quick kills would do well to avoid condition builds.

I rely extensively on clones to do damage, and clones only do damage with conditions, so all their limitations apply to me as a Clone Mesmer. Fortunately, I don’t go to my Mesmers for max damage or “efficiency” in the sense of killing things quickly (I’ll grab one of my Thieves or GC Rangers for that), but for fun.

“Fun” for me is being able to dive into absurdly huge crowds of hostile mobs and, after a lot of dodge-clone spawning, phase retreating, blocking (if using the scepter) and, in general, extremely careful tactical management, emerge victorious — usually with full health, my robes unsullied and ready to immediately do it again.

Exploding clones, AOEs and condition stacks are ideal for these scenarios, because even though each mob doesn’t die quickly, they all die eventually, because they all take damage in parallel as the conditions wear them down.

I also find soloing most champions I happen upon to be fun, but it does take quite a lot of time to whittle them down with just me and my clones. Knowing I can, however, and knowing that I can do so reliably whenever I feel like it, is nice.

Which I guess is why I enjoy being a Clone Mesmer so much. Because no matter where I go, or what I do, or what is happening around me, I’m a total badkitten, do whatever I want, whenever I feel like it, almost never have to run away, and almost never die.

I walk the land without fear, and I see that it is good.

I’m sure that would be a different story altogether in PvP, but it’s worth noting that my solo and small-group encounters in WvW have been very encouraging to date, so maybe not. Having a ton of condition-stacking clones coming at you left and right can be a challenge even for experienced players who know how to follow and focus a Mesmer, so who knows?

Granted, not a lot of details to work with. As I mentioned, I’m still adjusting to the new normal. But I can say with great confidence that before the patch, I was in a very good place.

And so far, though an optimum trait arrangement is still in the works, I don’t see that changing.

I’m pretty much in the same boat as Majic.
I love my clone Mesmer, and I’ve been waiting a long time for a fix to condition damage so I could bring him into more content without feeling worthless (read: world bosses).

I do very little PVP.

The biggest loss to me with the patch was effects on clone death, but overall I’ve still seen my kill times improve noticeably due to the condition changes.
Fixing the pistol and scepter traits will help.

I deeply enjoy cloning. Even as a less “fiddly” approach to mesmer than most other builds, it’s still more complex to play than my longbow ranger, for example.
A great deal of clone play depends on your positioning, where you drop your clones, how you manage clone creation. Clones die fast, period. Making sure you keep uptime on your condition application can be tricky, especially when you introduce scepter/pistol into the mix.
It becomes all about timing, knowing where to drop what and what you can get away with…it’s not simple, even if it’s not as complicated as the play Curunen seems to prefer.

Frankly, I’m not sure how anyone gets away with insisting that every possible Mesmer build has to reach some arbitrary level of skill difficulty, that just happens to be greater than other classes.

Seriously, if a longbow ranger can spend the whole fight at the back pounding Quickening Zephyr every time it’s on cooldown, and micromanaging their pet to keep things interesting, and we’re all okay with that, why isn’t it okay for there to be a viable mesmer build that is at least a little closer to that than to a shatter or lockdown mes?

Heck, as I mentioned, even the clone mesmer is loads more complex to play than the simplest builds from other classes.
Why is that not ok?

Curunen, why would you think ruining someone else’s preferred build to favor your own is anything but selfish?

For that matter, why would you believe that allowing clone builds to exist is “stupid” and that no one would want to play such a build, when there are clearly a whole cadre of people who prefer even simpler stuff like longbow ranger?

Majic and I are just two examples of a not-insignificant group of people who like clone-condition play, and in fact prefer it. I just hope that the improvement to the damage output of this build encourages more people to play it and enjoy it.

@Majic:
Here’s the build I’ve been looking at post-patch:
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=VS;4k2l61Q7sU-71;9;4UWT;0147048248;4K7J4aJW8NX8aNX8ak-FD4-gDXIP0-3d384d485d5d0q-Fc1g;57V-1V051V05NV05N7;017V;9;9;8F;4V6s53;00G
Obviously, since the pistol and scepter traits are still broken, there’s room for some variation.
For the moment, I’ve replaced Duelist’s Discipline with Phantasmal Fury,
and Malicious Sorcery + Evasive Mirror with Ineptitude + Blinding Dissipation.

I may stick with the I+BD combo after they fix MS, but for certain MS isn’t good enough without the 15% attack speed to outweigh the blind/confusion stacking, even given how rarely I shatter.

Majic.4801:

The Clone Wars

Curunen.8729:

You’ve just stated the obvious – does that make using clones to apply conditions skillful or interesting?

It is interesting to me, which is why I do it. As to whether or not it is skillful, I suppose that depends on one’s criteria, and under what circumstances they are applied.

I find using clones enjoyable, to the point that I almost never use phantasms. Not only that, I (gasp!) rarely use shatters, either, and don’t care to be pushed into them (or other class mechanics, for that matter) because I’ve found over the years that such things become boring in themselves after being needed over and over, fight after fight.

For you see, long before this latest patch, I relied extensively on clones to do damage, even back when I was rolling with dual swords (before that got nerfed). I even used the scepter when the scepter wasn’t cool.

I really like clones. A lot.

Clones are my trade. I am a cloner. My name is Majic the Cloner. I arrange, design and sell cloneries.*

If you don’t share my enthusiasm for the use of clones, I have no quarrel, but suggesting that they be nerfed and that their use to apply conditions is “stupid” puts us inevitably in diametric opposition.

In a broader sense, you have my sympathy if you’re finding condition play boring, and maybe there are constructive ways to change that. But inferring that something other Mesmers enjoy is “stupid” isn’t one of them.

I dont agree with either the premise or substance of your proposal, because I don’t think all Mesmers should be expected to suffer fewer options to appease one Mesmer.

…

* With apologies to Roger the Shrubber.

That is quite possibly the most intelligent reply I have ever seen. Kudos!

Majic and AlphatheWhite – I chose not to reply to this earlier because quite frankly I couldn’t be bothered based on certain statements I read in your posts, but now that you’ve brought it back to the first page I’ll make an effort and reply to both at the same time seeing as you are both saying similar things.

(see next post because it’s too long for one post)

Cadlarl.8213:

That is quite possibly the most intelligent reply I have ever seen. Kudos!

I’m assuming you’re also in agreement with both their points – in which case see the reply below.

Firstly let me address this:

Majic.4801:

Before we go any further, I would like to point out that context is everything: I’m just a PvE player who mostly solos (let us now cue the adorably adolescent sneers that invariably emanate from some PvPers and dungeon runners so I can enjoy a good laugh). I will let slip that now and then I feel the urge to head to the Mists, and have great fun when I do, but mostly I just run around Tyria, happily slinging clones with a song in my heart, left and right, to and fro, all the livelong day.

If your concerns are centered on PvP, I doubt you’ll find anything I have to say relevant. But your proposal wouldn’t be limited to PvP, hence my objections.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

I’m pretty much in the same boat as Majic.
I love my clone Mesmer, and I’ve been waiting a long time for a fix to condition damage so I could bring him into more content without feeling worthless (read: world bosses).

I do very little PVP.

I’ll start off by saying no I won’t be “sneering” or condescending about this, however it is extremely relevant to the discussion, not some trivial remark that has no relevance.

(see next post)

So let me point out a few things:

1. Anything works in casual/open world PvE.
This should be obvious to anyone playing the game. I honestly don’t understand limiting balance decisions based on both of your playstyle preference in open world pve. If this change was made to clones and your personal weapon skills, auto attacks and phantasm attacks buffed to make up for it, as well as restoring traits like on crit confusion, it would hardly make any difference to your damage output – pve mobs being mindless would still attack clones if they hit first, so you can still use them to “deceive” the pve mobs – the only difference is YOU would be doing the damage with your weapons. Therefore the effective damage output would be equal, but the method of application centred on the mesmer rather than the clones.

The effect of this on things like world bosses would be negligable, providing the buffs are given to mesmer condition attacks to make up for loss of clone damage.

As for not shattering – well this again emphasises my point that anything works in pve.

(see next post – kitten this forum post length limit…)

AlphatheWhite.9351:

The biggest loss to me with the patch was effects on clone death, but overall I’ve still seen my kill times improve noticeably due to the condition changes.
Fixing the pistol and scepter traits will help.

I deeply enjoy cloning. Even as a less “fiddly” approach to mesmer than most other builds, it’s still more complex to play than my longbow ranger, for example.
A great deal of clone play depends on your positioning, where you drop your clones, how you manage clone creation. Clones die fast, period. Making sure you keep uptime on your condition application can be tricky, especially when you introduce scepter/pistol into the mix.
It becomes all about timing, knowing where to drop what and what you can get away with…it’s not simple, even if it’s not as complicated as the play Curunen seems to prefer.

Frankly, I’m not sure how anyone gets away with insisting that every possible Mesmer build has to reach some arbitrary level of skill difficulty, that just happens to be greater than other classes.

Seriously, if a longbow ranger can spend the whole fight at the back pounding Quickening Zephyr every time it’s on cooldown, and micromanaging their pet to keep things interesting, and we’re all okay with that, why isn’t it okay for there to be a viable mesmer build that is at least a little closer to that than to a shatter or lockdown mes?

Heck, as I mentioned, even the clone mesmer is loads more complex to play than the simplest builds from other classes.
Why is that not ok?

Curunen, why would you think ruining someone else’s preferred build to favor your own is anything but selfish?

For that matter, why would you believe that allowing clone builds to exist is “stupid” and that no one would want to play such a build, when there are clearly a whole cadre of people who prefer even simpler stuff like longbow ranger?

Majic and I are just two examples of a not-insignificant group of people who like clone-condition play, and in fact prefer it. I just hope that the improvement to the damage output of this build encourages more people to play it and enjoy it.

.
.
. even given how rarely I shatter.

2. Anet deleted clone death.
I don’t see you complaining about that being a “selfish” decision that negatively affected your preferred playstyle.
Was the nerf to glamour confusion “selfish” in that it destroyed that playstyle overnight?

The point is builds are made possible and made obsolete all the time thanks to (often poor) balance decisions – how is my suggestion of removing conditions from clones any more selfish than any nerf Anet has made in the past which has had the consequence of deleting certain build options.

And refer to point 1 above if you’re afraid about damage output – you can keep the same playstyle with the only difference being that YOU and Phantasms have to apply the conditions – not clones. Clones will still work to deceive pve mobs and do non-zero damage to keep an enemy in combat.

Regarding playstyle – deception and positioning requires thought, but passively letting clones apply damage to your target is mindless and requires no thought. Please understand this – it is about the way conditions are applied and how that is distributed between mesmer, phantasms, clones and interrupts/shatters. Changing the distribution to reduce the application from clones and increase it from the mesmer/phantasms/shatters/interrupts has NO bearing on using clones to deceive open world pve mobs. And in pvp or wvw it makes no difference because no one is fooled anyway.
The only difference is in where your condition application and damage is coming from.

I don’t think I need to say any more than this – I feel I’ve been polite and answered both of your posts sufficiently.

Please take time to read all this through and understand where I’m coming from, because I honestly don’t see any issue with my suggestion having a huge impact on your playstyle, any more than the removal of clone death traits has already done.

@Curunen, irt your five points:
1a. “Anything works in open world”, “so why balance around it?” version.
*You’re not suggesting balance, you’re suggesting the complete removal of damage from clones, which eliminates our clone build entirely. It won’t work in open world after that. I still played my clone build in open world in spite of being a bit less effective than my power-focused characters, but that’s because it was possible. You have asked Anet to make that not possible, and I’m scared someone might listen to you and make this game less fun for me.

1b. “you’ll still do the same damage, it’ll just be on your own skills!”
* But at that point I might as well go play a condition necro or ele, because the damage won’t be on my clones, and illusion management won’t be a part of my play. I like clone builds, I like managing illusions to deal damage, and phantasms just work too differently for me to enjoy swapping completely over to those, even if it were feasible.

2a. “Anet deleted clone death, why aren’t you complaining about that?”
*I am. If you noticed, I made a point about that in my post. I am not happy about it, and neither is Majic. I don’t think Anet should eliminate builds that add diversity to the game, except in rare circumstances (like a build that exists just to exploit a bug that shouldn’t be in the game). Even in those rare circumstances, I think devs should give serious thought to encouraging such emergent play by finding a way to make unexpected builds viable.

If you’re trying to catch us on some kind of inconsistency because we’re complaining about your suggestion invalidating our builds but not the ones invalidated by clone death, I’m not sure I understand how you think that works.
My build does not depend on clone death effects, and even though its removal does affect me, my clone roaming is still functional, as I said in my post.
Your proposal isn’t about clone death, it’s about the very foundation of my build.

If I were reading a thread asking Anet to never reinstate clone death effects, I would object, but not as firmly as I object to your proposal, because I can still enjoy my own playstyle without clone death effects.

It is not inconsistent in the slightest to be more emphatic about stuff that affects you than about stuff that doesn’t affect you.

2b. “how am I being selfish, but Anet isn’t?”
First, note above that I’m already not happy with Anet about removing clone death effects, and neither are a *lot of people on these forums.
*Second, it’s not selfish of Anet to make changes to the game that harm some players’ playstyle, unless they are doing it because it helps Anet employees’ preferred playstyle. It’s selfish of you to ask Anet to harm my preferred playstyle to serve your own.

2c. “passively letting clones apply damage to your target is mindless and requires no thought.”
*No, it isn’t. Majic and I both have numerous level 80 characters, and we have both expressed to you that this is not the case. My longbow ranger is far more mindless than my clone mesmer.

2d. “Please understand this – it is about the way conditions are applied…”
*Please understand this: phantasm generation does not function the same as clone generation, and it never will. Phantasm management and clone management are very different, and it is clone management that I prefer. Making clones a vestigial part of a build that exist only for defensive purposes will not ensure that my build survives.

The origin of the conditions is the whole point of the clone build. It exists because clones applying conditions is a direct synergy with the defensive function of clones. In the “but I don’t wanna shatter!” thread, we’ve already seen an abundance of testimony to how difficult it is to keep phantasms up. Clones are easier and faster to create, and less painful to lose. I can f2-shatter all my clones, and have another set up in 2-3s, while doing the same with phantasms could take anywhere from 6-25 seconds, and require me to swap weapons away from staff, which is the weapon I’d prefer to stay on most of the time. Taking twice as long to build up damage via phantasms, and then even MORE ramp-up time while those phantasm build up condition stacks, does not make my build feasible.

You clearly don’t understand how the clone build works. That says to me you’ve never really played it. Which explains why you don’t understand the damage your proposal would do to my preferred style of play. Your conclusion just reaffirms that, as your assumption that clone death somehow already devastated my build completely ignores the point that I already made, that in practice I’ve found that my build is still more effective post-patch than it was pre-patch.

Frankly, I find myself wondering about your original premise, that “By far the single most passive and boring option is [Auto attacks and clone attacks (staff/scepter clones)],” which you find to be “one of the most strongest options in condition play,”
because it seems clear that you haven’t played it.

*You don’t understand the actual role clone death played in the build.
*You don’t understand why the build only functions if the primary defensive aspect (the clones) is also the primary offensive aspect, and you have, in spite of your assurances, made the clear condescending assumption that we’re too stupid to agree with you.
*You think the build is just “create clones, sit there autoattacking” which anyone who has ever run through the Silverwastes or Orr with this build can tell you is as inaccurate as saying that warriors “run in, swing weapon, win,” or that shatter mesmers “create clones, shatter clones, win.”

You seem totally offended by my objection to your proposal, but you are asking the developers of my favorite game to eliminate the mechanical basis for my favorite playstyle in that game, and you don’t even understand how that playstyle works.

In the interests of giving you some credit, I have a suggestion.
Try it.
Put together a version of the build I linked (exotics work just fine, I don’t have full ascended yet myself), and go play it for a week. Do the Drytop events and Vinewrath a few times, go running through the overworld for a while. You can make a youtube video to prove your chops, if you’re worried I still won’t believe you.
At the end of that time, come back, call me out and we’ll have an earnest discussion about what you learned, and whether you have the same opinions or not, or whether you have some better explanations for your proposal. Or, better yet, if you have some ideas to improve your proposal.

But don’t come in here assuming we just don’t understand the situation, when you’re trying to eliminate a build you’ve clearly not played.

Curunen.8729:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

The biggest loss to me with the patch was effects on clone death, but overall I’ve still seen my kill times improve noticeably due to the condition changes.
Fixing the pistol and scepter traits will help.

I deeply enjoy cloning. Even as a less “fiddly” approach to mesmer than most other builds, it’s still more complex to play than my longbow ranger, for example.
A great deal of clone play depends on your positioning, where you drop your clones, how you manage clone creation. Clones die fast, period. Making sure you keep uptime on your condition application can be tricky, especially when you introduce scepter/pistol into the mix.
It becomes all about timing, knowing where to drop what and what you can get away with…it’s not simple, even if it’s not as complicated as the play Curunen seems to prefer.

Frankly, I’m not sure how anyone gets away with insisting that every possible Mesmer build has to reach some arbitrary level of skill difficulty, that just happens to be greater than other classes.
.
.
.
. even given how rarely I shatter.

2. Anet deleted clone death.
I don’t see you complaining about that being a “selfish” decision that negatively affected your preferred playstyle.
Was the nerf to glamour confusion “selfish” in that it destroyed that playstyle overnight?

The point is builds are made possible and made obsolete all the time thanks to (often poor) balance decisions – how is my suggestion of removing conditions from clones any more selfish than any nerf Anet has made in the past which has had the consequence of deleting certain build options.

And refer to point 1 above if you’re afraid about damage output – you can keep the same playstyle with the only difference being that YOU and Phantasms have to apply the conditions – not clones. Clones will still work to deceive pve mobs and do non-zero damage to keep an enemy in combat.

Regarding playstyle – deception and positioning requires thought, but passively letting clones apply damage to your target is mindless and requires no thought. Please understand this – it is about the way conditions are applied and how that is distributed between mesmer, phantasms, clones and interrupts/shatters. Changing the distribution to reduce the application from clones and increase it from the mesmer/phantasms/shatters/interrupts has NO bearing on using clones to deceive open world pve mobs. And in pvp or wvw it makes no difference because no one is fooled anyway.
The only difference is in where your condition application and damage is coming from.

I don’t think I need to say any more than this – I feel I’ve been polite and answered both of your posts sufficiently.

Please take time to read all this through and understand where I’m coming from, because I honestly don’t see any issue with my suggestion having a huge impact on your playstyle, any more than the removal of clone death traits has already done.

This response is a bit silly. Alpha did complain about the loss of clone death, but it doesn’t make sense to call it selfish since Anet has nothing to gain from dropping it. Your proposal does seem selfish because you want to nerf something that doesn’t work for you in exchange for something that does.

I understand your position and agree with you that the MtD trait shouldn’t have been nerfed and should be fixed. And maybe we will have to trade something for getting it back. But also understand that others don’t want their play styles obliterated to fix what suits you.

In the end we all want the same thing: to have multiple viable ways to play Mesmer in all game modes.

I was hugely disappointed at the quick nerf to MtD and the loss of confusing combatants. I was so looking forward to playing a condition Mesmer in PVE, and it isn’t viable unless you play passively with clones applying condis.

However, I don’t think we should be so quick to make concessions. My nightmare is that the devs will read this and say, “yeah, clones applying condis is too strong and too passive, let’s change that” and we get nothing in return. And let’s face it. That’s more likely to happen than the possibility of a trade off.

TL; DR I think we should fight for everything we want and not give the devs more reasons to nerf us, because at this point it is all going to be nerfs.

I’m going to keep this very brief because I’m too tired to give you a huge response.

1. “You haven’t played it” – and then suggesting to run around open world pve zones…
lol, I don’t know what to say. I was being polite before but if you seriously think I haven’t run around open world pve zones in ANY build with max condition damage letting clones kill mobs then I don’t know what to say. I have played since launch and gone through pretty much every mesmer build in the game, in both pvp and have casually run around open world pve with them when I want to relax. You suggesting my argument is from lack of experience in a particular playstyle in open-world pve is… well utterly ridiculous. I’m certainly not going to bother making a video showing me running around open-world pve zones demonstrating said playstyle so you’ll have to choose to believe me or not.

You create clones, let them apply conditions, use your weapon skills and avoid shattering – positioning aside that’s all there is to it.

And on your point of not wanting to swap weapons – well that also supports my point of “anything goes” in open-world pve and casual non-intesive play.

2. Phantasms
Did you see the part about buffing our personal condition application skills like Winds of Chaos, Scepter auto, and also adding traited components in to non-native condition weapons such as sword and greatsword (ie what confusing combatants would have been)? Nevermind interrupt and shatter application.

Back to power builds – I would be interested if there were any complaints from power build players who may have enjoyed a similar playstyle to yours that clones deal negligable power damage and therefore cannot be used in this way.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. You, Majic and Cadlarl don’t like my propositions, fine – I completely accept that. But I am not going to change my stance and firmly stand by my belief and opinion on this matter of passive play.

Dunno i Never played cond Mess until today… i played like 10 games… and just destroyed 80% of players, and done tons of dmg, utility in tema fights… i dont think Mtd need chanages, For me it is almost in perfect state compared to broken Trapers and Burning spammers.

Michal.4513:

Dunno i Never played cond Mess until today… i played like 10 games… and just destroyed 80% of players, and done tons of dmg, utility in tema fights… i dont think Mtd need chanages, For me it is almost in perfect state compared to broken Trapers and Burning spammers.

How much of your damage came from MtD (the trait) compared to Scepter, and scepter or staff clones? – I assume you were using scepter (apologies if I’m assuming incorrectly)?

Have you played it without Scepter? I don’t like being forced into using that weapon when I was able to use different weapons pre-patch.

I played with Sword/Torch + Staff, 4/4/0/0/6 and it was much better pre-patch without IP than it is now.

Ineptitude and Blinding Dissipation do not make up for losing that second stack.

Power builds are twice as powerful as condition builds for mesmer.

Approaching Limits

Curunen.8729:

I honestly don’t understand limiting balance decisions based on both of your playstyle preference in open world pve.

I don’t understand limiting balance decisions based on your playstyle preference in PVP. See how easy it is to be dismissive when we choose to consider our own interests and not the game as a whole?

When we do consider the game as a whole, foisting narrower options on players for any reason erodes build diversity and ultimately pushes everyone into the same “meta” trap the new Specializations system is supposed to prevent.

As I said before, if you don’t care for my preferred Mesmer playstyle (“mindless”, is it?), I’m really not offended, but if you expect me to concur with such presumptions, I promise to consistently disappoint.

I still don’t agree with either the premise or substance of your proposals, and think they are ill-considered due to the limitations you have placed upon your own insular assessment of the profession. I take some comfort in the belief that the designers tend to be more considerate of all players in their decisions and more temperate in their application, but that is something only the passage of time can confirm.

That said, I hope you won’t take offense to my emphatic dissent, because it is quite possible to differ strenuously yet cordially on just about anything — certainly a game.

And for whatever it may be worth, I do hope your concerns about the Maim the Disillusioned nerf will be addressed to your satisfaction soon, though hopefully in a less radical fashion than you recommend.

No don’t worry, I am not offened.

Everyone’s different after all – I am just very stubborn when I get my teeth into something.

I honestly believe pvp balance is the most important thing, followed by wvw, then dungeon balance, and finally open world pve which in my opinion should not be considered for balance or class changes without going through the above modes first. That’s why I picked on the point you quoted, because I neither believe or accept that point/argument can be fairly reciprocated.

Mirror Images

I know you’ve asked for the thread to be closed, but I do feel compelled to add a few things for the sake of clarity.

First off, even though I tend to be PvE-mostly in GW2, it hasn’t always been that way. I’ve been playing MMOs for a very long time, and other kinds of games (like RTS’s and the venerable FPS genre) for far longer. Over the years I’ve gone through extended periods where all I did was PvP, and I wouldn’t even want to begin to estimate how much of my life has been consumed by Counter-Strike, or LOTRO monster play, or factions in the ill-fated SWG, or the Dawn of War series as a whole.

Suffice it to say, “more than is healthy”. So I’m definitely not anti-PvP in any way, shape or form, hold utmost regard for my PvP brethren and sistren, and hope my current GW2 playstyle preferences haven’t given anyone the wrong impression.

Secondly, in GW2, as with most other games, I consider PvP to be the ultimate proving ground. It is in the crucible of PvP that the slightest advantages or disadvantages tend to be greatly magnified, and when combined with the ingenuity of competitive players, gives game designers the finest laboratory possible for testing their designs.

So when it comes to refining and balancing professions in GW2, I think it makes complete sense for designers to focus on how they perform in PvP, and firmly believe the lessons learned there can be just as relevant in PvE.

Thirdly, I know my preferred styles of play for Mesmer and other professions in GW2 often tend toward “edge cases” or “cheese”, and don’t deny it. I loved using the scepter for clone-bombing with self-exploding clones and that’s about as cheesy as it gets. I do think, however, that a little cheese (okay, that was a lot) isn’t a bad thing to allow for in any game, because it leaves room for innovation and divergence in what can otherwise tend to become an ever-narrowing regime of rigid orthodoxy.

Orthodoxy is boring, and even cheese has its place in a balanced diet.

And last, but not least, when it comes to stubbornness, I have to believe it’s eminently clear by now that I’m not exactly free of it myself (cough), so if anything, I see a kindred spirit when it comes to that, and I hope you will receive my words accordingly.

Respect.

That’s fine and I am also sorry if I came across rudely and acting in my personal interests. I was (and am) just so greatly irritated at the MtD nerf that I’m venting it in any way to get those 2 torment stacks back. To put it simply my build/playstyle and weapon choice was twice as effective before the patch than it is now.

On a completely separate I must say your posts are beautifully worded so thank you for that.