Guild Wars 2

Hey all. I just wanted to come here briefly to discuss the way that it seems like how many (most?) mesmers spawn their clones: via dodge rolling.

Now, while spawning an endless stream of clones is all well and good, one of the problems that I see a lot of mesmers have also involves their rolling. See, Dueling X is a bit of a double-edged sword: while it helps you pop out another illusion, what it also does is instantly reveal which of the mesmers that I’m looking at is the real one. Typically speaking, the instant I see that, what will happen is I’ll change targets and go straight for the mesmer, get them running away, and (assuming they don’t have stealth) I press a few buttons and down them fairly easily. Stealth, stomp, gg.

So, here are a few tips I might have for mesmer players that are having difficulty with issues like this. If anybody else might like to add, that would be great.

-Don’t run Dueling X. It’s that simple. Unfortunately, IMO, Dueling X, when used right, is a great trait to have, so you might not want to give it up that easily.
-Have stealth. Once an enemy sees you, just Decoy or whatever, and, by the time you pop back out of stealth, it’ll be much more difficult for the enemy to see you again.
-Use illusions more like obstacles than as distractions. That way, it’s more difficult for the enemy to see you when you’re dodging or healing, and thus more difficult to discern what is an illusion and what is not.
-Blink. Doesn’t matter how- Staff #2, the Blink utility, Portal- whatever. Makes it much more difficult to see where you’ve gone if you blink away before they can catch you.
-If your enemy isn’t going to attack your illusions, then use them to your advantage. Either use phantasms as virtually permanent allies, bust your illusions at every chance you get, or whatever you have to do.

Anyways, there’s a small list that I’ve started right there. I’m sure many of you can add to it. I just wanted to bring attention to it, mostly because I’ve caught so many mesmers because they were dodge-rolling or healing at the wrong time, and I could tell what was an illusion and what wasn’t.

thats not the point of the trait, or illusions for that matter.

spawning illusions isnt to confuse or distract your enemies, its to do damage via shatters.

any decent player will instantly spot the real mesmer regardless if they dodge or not, a mesmer should always assume the enemy knows which is the real one at all times, and only use illusions summoned by skills or dodging to time shatters.

wads.5730:

thats not the point of the trait, or illusions for that matter.

spawning illusions isnt to confuse or distract your enemies, its to do damage via shatters.

any decent player will instantly spot the real mesmer regardless if they dodge or not, a mesmer should always assume the enemy knows which is the real one at all times, and only use illusions summoned by skills or dodging to time shatters.

That’s all well and good, and, if you’re a more defensively-based mesmer anyways, it might work out well, but remember that mesmers are a class that wears light armor, and whose main unique mechanic is the illusion. If your opponent knows where you are at all times, and you start running away because you can’t do as much DPS to them as they can do to you, you’re going to die. To make up for this, then, mesmers have to be willing to either follow one of the things that I wrote in my post, or learn how to act similar to their own illusions and thereby making it more difficult to tell which mesmer is the real one.

Also, I’m not saying that illusions should be used defensively exclusively- in fact, I vehemently disagree with that point of view. Rather, I think that illusions can and ought to be used both defensively and offensively, similar to how a good thief can use stealth both defensively and offensively, switching between roles when necessary.

Arganthium.5638:

wads.5730:

thats not the point of the trait, or illusions for that matter.

spawning illusions isnt to confuse or distract your enemies, its to do damage via shatters.

any decent player will instantly spot the real mesmer regardless if they dodge or not, a mesmer should always assume the enemy knows which is the real one at all times, and only use illusions summoned by skills or dodging to time shatters.

That’s all well and good, and, if you’re a more defensively-based mesmer anyways, it might work out well, but remember that mesmers are a class that wears light armor, and whose main unique mechanic is the illusion. If your opponent knows where you are at all times, and you start running away because you can’t do as much DPS to them as they can do to you, you’re going to die. To make up for this, then, mesmers have to be willing to either follow one of the things that I wrote in my post, or learn how to act similar to their own illusions and thereby making it more difficult to tell which mesmer is the real one.

Most mesmer pretend that their enemies already see them and play conservative that way. A simple target will never go off until either the target change or the player stealths.

Its not that hard to find a mesmer. In fact, the only hard build to find is really a phastasm build. Its not because they can hide but you cannot ignore their phantasm and target the real mesmer.

Deceptive Evasion sole purpose is for clones. tPVP build needs lots of clones for shatter since they cannot produce enough illusions through utilities and weapons skills.

Arganthium.5638:

but remember that mesmers are a class that wears light armor

well since im running cond. spec i use my staff clones to stack up condicions … however is 3k armor enough for some1 who wear light armor ?

The proper way to play a mesmer (this is super general) is to assume that whoever you are fighting already knows which clone is the real mesmer. Clones are ultimately only a distraction for extremely new players, as it is really really easy to tell which mesmer is the real one.

Clones are a resource, just like anything else in the game. They are used offensively and defensively with shatters, offensively for bleed/condition/vulnerability stacking, or for passive offense and defense with the 3% per illusion traits. The clone on dodge roll trait is vital to clone production for a high volume shatter build, and giving that u kitten illy.

Fighting a thief is very easy and straightforward. All you need to do is dodge the stealth attack. This is easily done by using blurred frenzy and well timed dodge rolls. It is safe to burn both dodge rolls to avoid the stealth attack, because if no stealth attacks hit, you won’t need the dodge rolls for anything else. Blurred frenzy alone is enough to cover 50% or more of all stealth attacks due to the 4 second revealed buff.

When the thief can’t land the stealth attacks, the thief can’t do damage. Burst the thief down at your leisure as such.

Skill required to play a thief:

Arganthium.5638:

I press a few buttons and down them fairly easily. Stealth, stomp, gg.

Skill required to counter a thief:

Arganthium.5638:

Anyways, there’s a small list that I’ve started right there.

Couldn’t resist. :d

Honestly, if you are wanting to confuse people with your clones, you need to do a few things:
(1) Don’t do anything but auto-attack unless forced to or already “figured out”
(2) Equip stealth skills to break targeting … this makes the enemy have to “figure you out” again.

Deceptive Evasion, taking it or not, has nothing to do with this except that if you dodge roll before an enemy has “figured you out”, then you just made their job that much easier.

Good mesmers already know this. The ones who found this useful should probably roll a warrior just in case.

He has a point that dodging just to produce clones is a good way to get yourself focused. Anyhow, I find it refreshing that he decided to share his insight with another profession.

Thanks!

Dastion.3106:

He has a point that dodging just to produce clones is a good way to get yourself focused. Anyhow, I find it refreshing that he decided to share his insight with another profession.

Thanks!

You can see it another way… dodging for a clone gets an extra +100% duration on your F4 shatter, not bad when you didn’t lose a util CD to do it.

A good player should be able to differentiate Clones from the real Mesmer without the real Mesmer doing anything obvious, in fact there is a UI option that does the differentiation for you last time I checked.

Blending in with clones isn’t the core of any viable build. A half decent player will be able to spot the real mesmer regardless of whether or not they’re dodge rolling. Most mesmers that run Dueling X are shatter mesmers and they just roll to get illusions out that they can shatter in just a few seconds. Clones are a temporary distraction or shatter fodder, they’re not long term. Give advice to thieves, not mesmers…

Not to mention the on kill/overwrite traits – dodge clone production is a good way of blowing up clones and applying those conditions if your illusions are not being actively killed.

Yes yes, good players will be able to discern clones, we usually dodge to do a quick shatter combo, etc. etc. it’s been said.

Whatever the reasonings, I think an important point that here we have a player of another profession who has noticed a predictable behavior of Mesmers and utilizes it to his advantage and he’s sharing that with us.

It’s rare we have player of another profession pop over and offer friendly advise, it’s a refreshing change.

Dastion.3106:

Yes yes, good players will be able to discern clones, we usually dodge to do a quick shatter combo, etc. etc. it’s been said.

Whatever the reasonings, I think an important point that here we have a player of another profession who has noticed a predictable behavior of Mesmers and utilizes it to his advantage and he’s sharing that with us.

It’s rare we have player of another profession pop over and offer friendly advise, it’s a refreshing change.

Agreed, it’s nice to see cross profession sharing – makes for a better community.

I disagree with this notion that clones (or any illusion for that matter) is basically there for shatters. Those who say that good players won’t get confused by all those bodies out there aren’t entirely accurate. I have had party members who can’t even follow me and they are on my team and can see me while stealthed. Its a matter of using the dodge-clone and stealthing and/or blinking that can really mess people up.

I prefer running a cond dmg w/ confusion spike build in which I get 140-150 dps from bleed per stack. I shatter here and there but large in part I tend to leave my illusions up to cause more stacks and make it even harder for me to be targeted. Between torch 4, decoy, and mass inv, I usually am extremely hard to follow.

So I play a mesmer. And I do like to decoy, blink, and portal to be confusing. But I also run food bufs so finding me only takes tab targeting around (or noticing that “clone” that just formed with it’s back to you – blink; or a “clone” disappeared at one node of a portal and appeared at the other).

On my Engi I use all of the above and watching for the clone on dodge to make it faster than just tab targetting but if the only way you have of noticing the real mesmer is watching for the dodge then you’re missing a lot of other tells.

The useful of clones to distract people depends on your mobility. Can you get behind them when creating clones. Did you already have clones out when they entered the fight? Can you teleport around? Can you break target using stealth?

The better a player is, the quicker they’ll identify the real mesmer. However, the better the Mesmer is at deceiving their foe(s), the longer that will take. The second(s) this provides is/are second(s) of skills coming off cooldown without additional pressure on the Mesmer.

-Don’t run Dueling X.

I lol’d … seriously wtf?
Running Duelling X has its purpose in some builds, not running it would simply be dumb. Of course there are a lot of “noobish” players in WvWvW as well as sPvP, but a better advise for them would actually be to improve on their general decision making/reactions instead of going that deep and saying dont use skill ‘x’ .
You may want to take a look into some of the mesmer builds that were brought together in Fay.2735s thread (kudos to him/her for doing it! It’s really helpful and some other class forums lack such a thing). I have not found one that relys on duelling X as distracion and that is for a good reason.

Now as a lot of people already mentioned clones wont stop any half decent player from identifying the real mesmer. And by the way most burst classes work clone production wont provide you with any indirect defense at all (again: as long as the enemy is at least half decent). IF you want to confuse an enemy you are bound to use portals/blinks/swaps/invisibilty skills in all sorts of combinations (which often times leave a clone behind).
The point of duelling X is pretty much producing clones for more frequent shatters and maybe for X-on-clone-death traits (although I have happen to run into such a build yet)

A more realistic argument for duelling X beeing a duoble-edged sword would be the fact that you burn your stamina without actually doding anything most of the time. This can be crucial if you mess up your other defensive mechanisms, such as distortion/blinks/aegis, but you did not even bring up this argument.

Agony.3542:

-Don’t run Dueling X.

I lol’d … seriously wtf?
Running Duelling X has its purpose in some builds, not running it would simply be dumb.

This was my point. If you can’t handle the trait, reroll or swap builds. Thanks for obviously having taken this into consideration.

Sebrent.3625:

The useful of clones to distract people depends on your mobility. Can you get behind them when creating clones. Did you already have clones out when they entered the fight? Can you teleport around? Can you break target using stealth?

The better a player is, the quicker they’ll identify the real mesmer. However, the better the Mesmer is at deceiving their foe(s), the longer that will take. The second(s) this provides is/are second(s) of skills coming off cooldown without additional pressure on the Mesmer.

Quoting this for emphasis, probably a pretty good summary.

Arganthium.5638:

Agony.3542:

-Don’t run Dueling X.

I lol’d … seriously wtf?
Running Duelling X has its purpose in some builds, not running it would simply be dumb.

This was my point. If you can’t handle the trait, reroll or swap builds. Thanks for obviously having taken this into consideration.

Dueling X has its purpose in most builds… Any build with the word SHATTER as a describer… Requires this trait… No two ways about it… And coming from a Mesmer to a thief… We honestly do not care if dodging to make clones gives us away because by the time you get to us for dat burst we have already gotten one in…

jportell.2197:

Arganthium.5638:

Agony.3542:

-Don’t run Dueling X.

I lol’d … seriously wtf?
Running Duelling X has its purpose in some builds, not running it would simply be dumb.

This was my point. If you can’t handle the trait, reroll or swap builds. Thanks for obviously having taken this into consideration.

Dueling X has its purpose in most builds… Any build with the word SHATTER as a describer… Requires this trait… No two ways about it… And coming from a Mesmer to a thief… We honestly do not care if dodging to make clones gives us away because by the time you get to us for dat burst we have already gotten one in…

Well, you can say that to all the mesmers that have died under my foot because they thought “LOL SPAM DODGE”. don’t get me wrong, I can usually tell which one is real with very little effort, even without the dodge… But until they heal/dodge like that, it usually takes me a few more seconds to recognize movement patterns that only a player would have.

EDIT: also, I’m not a GC bursting thief, if that’s what you were thinking, I run a much hardier build. Still, after I see which one is real, I go full out on the mesmer, and, at that point, things become a lot more difficult for them if they don’t know what they’re doing. Which is why I made this post.

ExZee.8109:

Skill required to play a thief:

Arganthium.5638:

I press a few buttons and down them fairly easily. Stealth, stomp, gg.

Skill required to counter a thief:

Arganthium.5638:

Anyways, there’s a small list that I’ve started right there.

Couldn’t resist. :d

Eh. I made this post mostly for nooby mesmers who honestly don’t know how to handle their illusions, and start running the instant an enemy starts chasing them… I wouldn’t say that this applies just for thieves vs mesmers, but for any profession vs mesmers. So it’s not so much an issue of thieves not requiring skill as it is that some mesmers completely lack skill, IMHO.

I’m still very new to mesmer, and even I know that trying to flee from a thief is just asking to get killed. Either fight or die.

Also take into consideration that Shatter builds have this skill for shatter fodder. When I run my shatter there are many times where I wish I could toggle this trait on and off at a blink of an eye. It can get annoying popping out a clone that goes and attacks a mob but I can’t take the trait off cause I need it for when I run into a real enemy.

The people running away from you probably are not dodging to confuse you with clones. Anyway who gets confused by clones is a new player or needs glasses cause it shouldn’t take more than a second or two to figure it out anyway cause clones don’t have second hand weapons. They probably are just thinking they will dodge and hopefully evade one of your Heart Seekers or Backstabs and the clone they pop out is a second after effect that they arn’t even thinking about. But out right telling people to not take it is kinda over bored cause they arn’t taking it for the reasons you are arguing.

Vs. a good player it’s night and day to which is the real mesmer. There are constant tells… movement (either clone or player)/black swirl @ the feet when coming out of stealth/attack frequency.

WvW has a lot of baddies though. I’ll sort of test to see if it seems like they can follow me through some basics misdirects and if they can I just toss that idea. Just be ready to evade in the case that they can tell which is which.

It’s similar to how in fighting games spamming some basic attacks will kill noobs… and you should try them on a player you’re not familiar playing against (RAWR Hadoken spam!) but at the same time don’t expect to rely on these sorts of things.

Dueling 20 shouldn’t affect your ability to do this though. It’s amazing fuel for your shatter skills… which are an amazing offense/defense you’ll want to be able to use at any second with any build. Dueling 20 lets you do this with a very low cost.

Blinking will make you stand out… not blend in. Save this for defensive use when they are hitting you or you’re trying to get away.

What I do if it is a duel… I open with decoy then blink behind… Sure they know I decoyed but they think I am going to be popping up somewhere closer… Its really fun to confuse people on mah mes.

Arganthium.5638:

Hey all. I just wanted to come here briefly to discuss the way that it seems like how many (most?) mesmers spawn their clones: via dodge rolling.

Now, while spawning an endless stream of clones is all well and good, one of the problems that I see a lot of mesmers have also involves their rolling. See, Dueling X is a bit of a double-edged sword: while it helps you pop out another illusion, what it also does is instantly reveal which of the mesmers that I’m looking at is the real one. Typically speaking, the instant I see that, what will happen is I’ll change targets and go straight for the mesmer, get them running away, and (assuming they don’t have stealth) I press a few buttons and down them fairly easily. Stealth, stomp, gg.

So, here are a few tips I might have for mesmer players that are having difficulty with issues like this. If anybody else might like to add, that would be great.

-Don’t run Dueling X. It’s that simple. Unfortunately, IMO, Dueling X, when used right, is a great trait to have, so you might not want to give it up that easily.
-Have stealth. Once an enemy sees you, just Decoy or whatever, and, by the time you pop back out of stealth, it’ll be much more difficult for the enemy to see you again.
-Use illusions more like obstacles than as distractions. That way, it’s more difficult for the enemy to see you when you’re dodging or healing, and thus more difficult to discern what is an illusion and what is not.
-Blink. Doesn’t matter how- Staff #2, the Blink utility, Portal- whatever. Makes it much more difficult to see where you’ve gone if you blink away before they can catch you.
-If your enemy isn’t going to attack your illusions, then use them to your advantage. Either use phantasms as virtually permanent allies, bust your illusions at every chance you get, or whatever you have to do.

Anyways, there’s a small list that I’ve started right there. I’m sure many of you can add to it. I just wanted to bring attention to it, mostly because I’ve caught so many mesmers because they were dodge-rolling or healing at the wrong time, and I could tell what was an illusion and what wasn’t.

Here’s a pro tip for you, since you’re here.

You said you play a thief. Great, I already know what you’re going to do. For that reason I want you to know exactly which one I am so you will hone in on me and spam your attacks. We’ll get in real close to eachother, at which point I’ll drop a shatter on you. You’ll run your usual skill drill and rack up the confusion damage. Your life will melt, you’ll freak out and naturally do what all good thieves do and dive for the sanctuary of stealth. Whoops, those stacks of confusion are still there and when you come out of stealth you’re downed and ready for the stomp. Like all good thieves should be.

I think the points being lost here are:
(1) Don’t move like a player until you know they know you’re a player and are forced to so or are easily on the offensive.
(2) Don’t waste all your endurance dodge rolling to make clones unless you have some other form of defense (i.e. blocks, blurred frenzy, etc.) and even then, think about it a bit because you may need multiple defenses

Also, it should be noted that taking toughness as a Mesmer is beautiful as Illusions seem to only take a fraction of your vitality but 100% of your toughness. When I switch from my berserker+cavalier set to my full rabid set or knight’s set, my clones trick people much more as hitting my clone doesn’t move the health bar that much which makes it seem more like a player. I even tricked a player as I had broken target with stealth and was out of his field of vision when I stealth wore off and just auto-attacked (staff) like my clones. He took two shots at me and I didn’t move so he swapped to a clone. My health doesn’t move much when shot and neither do my illusions’. It was amusing.

When I was a new Mesmer, I once stood still in the middle of a WvW battle because I wanted people to confuse me for a clone. Then my teammates started screaming over VoIP: “Jackal! Get your head out of your kitten and do something!”

This is right after I failed to portal golems from the water at Bay onto the dock. I didn’t realize I could use portals in water, and I put the portal where the golems couldn’t reach. I felt super important until I botched that one.

Whether you’re fighting them, playing them, or teaming with them, Mesmers have a little something to teach everyone. That is: Don’t be distracted by the butterflies.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Here’s a pro tip for you, since you’re here.

You said you play a thief. Great, I already know what you’re going to do. For that reason I want you to know exactly which one I am so you will hone in on me and spam your attacks. We’ll get in real close to eachother, at which point I’ll drop a shatter on you. You’ll run your usual skill drill and rack up the confusion damage. Your life will melt, you’ll freak out and naturally do what all good thieves do and dive for the sanctuary of stealth. Whoops, those stacks of confusion are still there and when you come out of stealth you’re downed and ready for the stomp. Like all good thieves should be.

I almost thought that there was going to be something useful here, but then I realized that you completely unjustifiably, stereotyped the entire thief class, and probably think I’m some kittening idiot thief who has no idea what he’s doing. I don’t claim to be the best of the thieves, but I’m certainly not the worst, and let me just say: I make all of my builds from my own ideas. If you’re going to stereotype thieves, please don’t attempt to apply that stereotype to me, because I run much different from your stereotypical “regular skill drill” thief.

No, I’m not stupid enough to ignore confusion damage and flip out like some lunatic. Thank you for your well thought-out response, though. I’ll totally take this into consideration. /sarcasm

Nikked.7365:

Don’t be distracted by the butterflies.

lol

Despite the name Deceptive Eevasion was never used by any competent mesmer for deception. It was only to generate more clones. Blink, stealth, and LOS (real LOS, not game LOS) are used for deception. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you understand the trait.

Arganthium.5638:

Agony.3542:

-Don’t run Dueling X.

I lol’d … seriously wtf?
Running Duelling X has its purpose in some builds, not running it would simply be dumb.

This was my point. If you can’t handle the trait, reroll or swap builds. Thanks for obviously having taken this into consideration.

Well, you clearly haven’t taken into consideration what’s already been pointed out…

Deceptive Evasion has no bearing on telling which is the real Mes. And why would it? Clones don’t dodge roll, no matter what the source: if you get caught dodging then having DE or not will not make any difference.

@Arganthium: As snarky as that comment may have been, it contained some truth. Thieves are extremely predictable. They have to be. You stealth, and you have a short window of time to use that stealth before you have to start over. Since mesmers have so much active defense, it is very possible to completely ruin the rhythm and attacks of a thief.

Stealth, wait a beat, blurred frenzy. You have no option but to waste that stealth, or hit a clone or phantasm or something. Repeating that sort of thing with other active defenses, burning two dodges to do the same thing, this can completely ruin the damage potential of a thief. Yes, you’re using up your active defense a lot, but against a thief, that’s all that matters. If you can completely ruin their ability to use stealth attacks, the thief loses.

shimmerless.4560:

Arganthium.5638:

Agony.3542:

-Don’t run Dueling X.

I lol’d … seriously wtf?
Running Duelling X has its purpose in some builds, not running it would simply be dumb.

This was my point. If you can’t handle the trait, reroll or swap builds. Thanks for obviously having taken this into consideration.

Well, you clearly haven’t taken into consideration what’s already been pointed out…

Deceptive Evasion has no bearing on telling which is the real Mes. And why would it? Clones don’t dodge roll, no matter what the source: if you get caught dodging then having DE or not will not make any difference.

No, I’ve taken it into consideration, I just think that everybody’s ignoring the fact that, whether they like it or not, it’s difficult for any player to tell which mesmer is the real one if they aren’t doing anything to clearly show which one actually is the real one. Everybody just says “oh, a good player can always tell which is the real one”, but that’s only necessarily true under a few circumstances (such as the player being under leveled- clones don’t show up as UL, players do). Under other circumstances, it can be very difficult to discern between mesmers, or, failing that, it at least takes longer to determine which one is real, which is practically the mesmer equivalent of a daze that lasts, oh, say, 5 seconds. During that time, they can’t attack you, because they don’t know where you are, necessarily.

My point with DE is that mesmers often use it as their prime method of spawning clones, which is perfectly fine, but if they abuse it too much (as they often do), then it can backfire.

What in the world… the whole OP is implying that Mesmer’s main defensive mechanic is through fooling the opponent on which one is the real Mesmer. This could not be any further from the truth. Experienced players can easily tell which one is the real Mesmer quite quickly. You never ever want to bank on your opponent’s inexperience.

Deceptive Evasion is basically a must to use in any shatter-oriented build. Period. No offense, but I really think people should refrain from giving build advise on classes they do not play. Tips on how to fight your class, ok, but build advise? No.

Arganthium.5638:

No, I’ve taken it into consideration, I just think that everybody’s ignoring the fact that, whether they like it or not, it’s difficult for any player to tell which mesmer is the real one if they aren’t doing anything to clearly show which one actually is the real one. Everybody just says “oh, a good player can always tell which is the real one”, but that’s only necessarily true under a few circumstances (such as the player being under leveled- clones don’t show up as UL, players do). Under other circumstances, it can be very difficult to discern between mesmers, or, failing that, it at least takes longer to determine which one is real, which is practically the mesmer equivalent of a daze that lasts, oh, say, 5 seconds. During that time, they can’t attack you, because they don’t know where you are, necessarily.

thats wrong, assuming your opponent is not a new players or bad, then even if you stand still and just autoattack, exactly like your clones do, the person you’re fighting will still immediately spot the real mesmer from the clones. simply because clones attack slower than you.

and if the opponent isn’t able to tell which is the real mesmer, then you wouldn’t have to worry about rolling giving you away, because they are bad.

Arganthium.5638:

My point with DE is that mesmers often use it as their prime method of spawning clones, which is perfectly fine, but if they abuse it too much (as they often do), then it can backfire.

We abuse it for shatter fodder to blow you up not to confuse you. This is what EVERYONE is trying to tell you. We are not using DE to CONFUSE you!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, let me play devil’s advocat here and say that it actually is not as easy for other players to tell the real Mesmer apart. Let’s even say you are facing a Mesmer who is actively trying to confuse you in that way (trust me none of us are).

You are posting in the Mesmer Forums. Many of us even if we have other jobs leveled are what we consider to be Mesmerts (Mesmer Experts ) of course we are going to tell you that it is easy to tell the real one apart, it isn’t stretching the truth at all saying that we are well trained in telling which one the real one is more than other classes.

HOWEVER, post this in any forum and MOST maybe not all but MOST people will tell you it is easy. And if you try to say that it is easy because they are not Mesmerts then I have this to say, there are only a few builds that would even try to confuse you with clones and from what I have seen not too many Mesmerts run them.

Arganthium.5638:

shimmerless.4560:

Arganthium.5638:

Agony.3542:

-Don’t run Dueling X.

I lol’d … seriously wtf?
Running Duelling X has its purpose in some builds, not running it would simply be dumb.

This was my point. If you can’t handle the trait, reroll or swap builds. Thanks for obviously having taken this into consideration.

Well, you clearly haven’t taken into consideration what’s already been pointed out…

Deceptive Evasion has no bearing on telling which is the real Mes. And why would it? Clones don’t dodge roll, no matter what the source: if you get caught dodging then having DE or not will not make any difference.

No, I’ve taken it into consideration, I just think that everybody’s ignoring the fact that, whether they like it or not, it’s difficult for any player to tell which mesmer is the real one if they aren’t doing anything to clearly show which one actually is the real one. Everybody just says “oh, a good player can always tell which is the real one”, but that’s only necessarily true under a few circumstances (such as the player being under leveled- clones don’t show up as UL, players do). Under other circumstances, it can be very difficult to discern between mesmers, or, failing that, it at least takes longer to determine which one is real, which is practically the mesmer equivalent of a daze that lasts, oh, say, 5 seconds. During that time, they can’t attack you, because they don’t know where you are, necessarily.

My point with DE is that mesmers often use it as their prime method of spawning clones, which is perfectly fine, but if they abuse it too much (as they often do), then it can backfire.

Even if the Mesmer just stands there and does nothing people can still tell due to their buff bar and the fact clones auto-attack slower. It should not take more than a second or so to discern the real Mesmer. Also the whole notion of attempting to “blend in” with your clones to fool the opponent(s) is just bad. Good players do not even bother to do this because it is completely pointless.

Not only that it only takes 1 person to mark the Mesmer and the only thing that clears it is stealth, so it’s not like each individual member of your team has to actively pick out the real Mesmer. And in large team fights clones drop like flies. You never want to rely on your clones for anything, honestly.

Pyroatheist.9031:

@Arganthium: As snarky as that comment may have been, it contained some truth. Thieves are extremely predictable. They have to be. You stealth, and you have a short window of time to use that stealth before you have to start over. Since mesmers have so much active defense, it is very possible to completely ruin the rhythm and attacks of a thief.

Stealth, wait a beat, blurred frenzy. You have no option but to waste that stealth, or hit a clone or phantasm or something. Repeating that sort of thing with other active defenses, burning two dodges to do the same thing, this can completely ruin the damage potential of a thief. Yes, you’re using up your active defense a lot, but against a thief, that’s all that matters. If you can completely ruin their ability to use stealth attacks, the thief loses.

Ok.

P/P nonstealthing build.

D/D LDB nonstealthing build

D/P Build combining minimal stealth with Signets

S/D (mostly) Nonstealthing Burst Build

Hybrid Stealth/Signet S/P build

“Lifesteal” build, minimal stealth

Point in case: if you honestly believe that thieves “have to be predictable”, that they all use stealth, then I honestly don’t believe that you’ve played thief enough to say anything.

Above are a whole selection of builds that I picked up from all over the place within about 5 minutes, and with each of them, players either use very little stealth or no stealth at all (typically, the builds that fall under the “very little stealth” category only go there because they run SR).

For you, it seems to be a matter of “Stealth → Burst” on thieves, but that’s just not the case. My thief, for example: he sure does use stealth, but it’s for both offensive and defensive reasons, and most of my damage isn’t from backstabbing, either. Although backstabbing does do a nice bit of damage in my build, and I do backstab fairly frequently, other skills like the autoattack, HS, shadow shot, and all of my SB skills are the real meat of the build. If you would do exactly what you stated above, then you’d still get minced by my D/P weaponset, and probably even more easily, because, as you said, you’re “burning up your active defense”. I’ll just roll you over into the ground completely, if that’s your mindset.

I don’t understand why you people suffer from this extremely narrow point of view. There is just as much, if not more variety in thief builds as there is in mesmer builds, guardian builds, or, for that matter, any other profession. If you think that every thief is heavily reliant on stealth attacks (such as Backstab), then I hope that you’ll change your mind after a good thief comes down on you and shows you that that narrow point of view is completely and utterly wrong one day.

Pretty much every non-stealth build on thieves is varying degrees of crap. The lifesteal build is no longer viable since the nerf to the foods. LDB is happily countered by simply walking away from the thief until all his initiative is gone. P/P builds are horrific, and you barely even have to try to counter them as a mesmer. Any non-stealth attack is easily countered by dodging, using LoS with clones, or abusing the massive amounts of active defense a mesmer has. Additionally, a visible thief is a vulnerable thief. Mesmers have lots of hard cc and disables like immobilize on very short cooldowns, and a thief that tries to duke it out with a mesmer without using stealth as an escape is going to die very VERY fast.

Edit: All of this is applying mainly to normal shatter/condie/w/e mesmer builds. If you’re talking about my immortal build, then it hardcounters all of the builds you listed there pretty much by standing in one spot afk, and my OP phantasm build counters them pretty much by pressing 2 buttons for phantasms.

The problem with a thief running a no stealth build is A. Sure they can do damage pretty easily from the AA but it also leaves you completely vulnerable to the other persons AA… And I don’t care how much toughness a thief runs they are the lowest on the totem pole when it comes to being able to build a tank build… Not as much armor as guards not as much access to boons as ele’s… A non stealthing thief will get blown up more than a stealth thief…. Plane and simple.

Skyro.3108:

What in the world… the whole OP is implying that Mesmer’s main defensive mechanic is through fooling the opponent on which one is the real Mesmer. This could not be any further from the truth. Experienced players can easily tell which one is the real Mesmer quite quickly. You never ever want to bank on your opponent’s inexperience.

Deceptive Evasion is basically a must to use in any shatter-oriented build. Period. No offense, but I really think people should refrain from giving build advise on classes they do not play. Tips on how to fight your class, ok, but build advise? No.

Joy, another one of these.

No, I’ll tell you guys again: I understand that illusions aren’t mesmers’ only defensive mechanic. Outside of the obvious armor/toughness/healing stats as defense, I understand that mesmers also have stealth, teleportation, conditions, pushbacks, confusions, and so many other weapons in their arsenal that they can use as defense. What I am saying, however, is that illusions are most certainly one of the mechanics that mesmers have as a method of defense. If you can keep away from an opponent who knows you’re the real mesmer, great. Good for you. You shouldn’t have a problem. If you’re a mes that can use confusion (the condition) to make it difficult for enemies to completely roll you over, wonderful. But if you can’t do either of those, or your opponent is able to avoid your shatters, whatever- then you need to have some plan B, and making yourself the most obvious target is not , IMHO, a very good option.

Lol, you don’t even know what my experience with mesmer is like. For all you know, I’ve never touched a mesmer since GW2 came out… Or perhaps I play it as my alt to my thief. To be honest, I have played mes a decent bit (probably the profession I’ve used second-most-often, the first being the thief), although I don’t enjoy the profession as much anymore. I used to play a lot of PvP with my mes, though, and one of the things that I did was run Dueling X, and it turned out perfectly fine. I played a S/P and Staff Shatter build (that I developed mostly by myself, although the idea was certainly not original to me, I’m sure). The nice thing about it was, at a distance with my staff, I usually didn’t have to worry about opponents coming after me anyways, because of conditions and Staff #2 (which I absolutely love). It was also a lot easier, at a distance, for me to just blend in with my clones anyhow. Then, when my opponent closed in on me, I’d switch to S/P and let loose with as many clones as possible. I’m pretty sure one of the reasons why I survived so well with my S/P set was because my opponent was (literally) being blinded by butterflies, but it was also because, with so many clones around him/her, it was near impossible to tell which mesmer was the real one very easily- it was just too confusing.

I hardly ever killed anything (I hadn’t worked on the build for very long), and yet, with my light armor, I think I must have survived longer than anything I had ever played before. It was insane; I’ll probably go back and try the build again some day.

Either way, this entire thread isn’t about giving advice for build changes, it’s giving advice to mesmers who can’t control a particular trait they have very well. It’s about mesmers who think “better run away now lol” and get mauled for it. So I’m sorry if that bothers you, but please read the OP before putting words I didn’t say in my mouth.

@Arganthium: The problem is that you’re making a few assumptions that don’t line up.

You say: Deceptive evasion allows people to figure out which is the real mesmer.

Here is the problem. If you make your assumption that this person would not know the real mesmer without deceptive evasion or a normal dodge roll, then you also have to make the assumption that this person is hopelessly inexperienced at pvp, or at the very least fighting mesmers, and will get absolutely roflstomped by any even slightly competent mesmer.

The key point here is general competence. When you pvp, you assume your opponent is competent (with the exception of a zergbusting glamour build, but that’s a special case). For mesmers, assuming competence means that you are assuming your opponent will figure out which one is the real mesmer very quickly. Playing based off of that assumption is the right way to play, because a playstyle that works well in that assumption will work even better if your opponent is incompetent.

That really is the basic thing wrong with your advice. You advise us to assume incompetence on the part of the opponent, and that is not a good way to base your playstyle and build.

@OP

You say in the OP to not take X trait. This is, literally, the definition of build advice. You can emphasize the caveat that it is directed at players “who can’t control a particular trait they have very well” all you want, but even then, it simply becomes very very bad advice. The correct advice for these players is simply to learn how to use the trait better.

Also the correlation between this trait and “fooling” your opponent is completely and utterly inconsequential vs experienced players. This notion continues to escape you. I do not think there is a single experienced PvP Mesmer who would recommend attempting to fool your opponent with your clones. That is like saying don’t ever strafe since clones don’t strafe.

And I’m sorry I assumed you didn’t play Mesmer. I would imagine somebody who played Mesmer to any significant degree would know that attempting to fool players with your clones is a fruitless endeavor.

Skyro.3108:

@OP

I would imagine somebody who played Mesmer to any significant degree would know that attempting to fool players with your clones is a fruitless endeavor.

^This
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