Guild Wars 2

Hundred Blades will be next on the warrior because the golem didn’t move or stop it

As a comparison – with power shatter you can demolish a target golem effortlessly, and that will be even more the case after tomorrow.

The whole idea with condition shatter is condition burst – so I don’t see what the problem is with high damage ticks. If you miss your shatter, you miss your damage just like with power. The only thing condition has over power is the luxury of speccing more toughness – but then you trade off being able to 100-0 your target in 1 second (exaggeration but you get the point). You also don’t have to worry about cleansing if playing power.

And I still can’t help laughing that a single scepter 2 block will do more damage than a 4 clone shatter if this change goes through. Change kittening scepter to 4 stacks if it’s so scary and reduce the duration.

I dunno why I’m bothering posting this – maybe in the wild hope that some dev is reading this thread and reconsiders the change.

Every class is going to have some crazy builds with whatever damage – power/condition /hybrid – that will be blowing up noobs left right and centre from tomorrow.

I seriously doubt maim the disillusioned is anywhere near the top of that list.

Tomorrow will be known as The Day of the Gank. I was watching the stream for the other classes and the condi burst damage is off the scale. No wonder they gave us so much stealth. It’ll be the only way to stay alive. I see a lot of nerfs incoming. Condition removal will be a must until then. Tomorrow is going to be a fun crazy day. See you guys in PvP.

Before, MtD was a grandmaster trait that got to compete with IP.

Now, MtD is a master trait that gets IP and your grandmaster trait of choice for free.

I believe it’s a fair nerf, considering how it was indirectly double buffed.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Before, MtD was a grandmaster trait that got to compete with IP.

Now, MtD is a master trait that gets IP and your grandmaster trait of choice for free.

I believe it’s a fair nerf, considering how it was indirectly double buffed.

People keep saying stuff like this, why? Under the new system why does a GM trait have to be stronger then a master trait? They both cost the same to equip.

Levetty.1279:

People keep saying stuff like this, why? Under the new system why does a GM trait have to be stronger then a master trait? They both cost the same to equip.

Regardless if it needs to be stronger or not, that’s how it is balanced right now, even with the new changes taken into account.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Levetty.1279:

People keep saying stuff like this, why? Under the new system why does a GM trait have to be stronger then a master trait? They both cost the same to equip.

Regardless if it needs to be stronger or not, that’s how it is balanced right now, even with the new changes taken into account.

Regardless nothing, you said it was fair. Answer the question.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Before, MtD was a grandmaster trait that got to compete with IP.

Now, MtD is a master trait that gets IP and your grandmaster trait of choice for free.

I believe it’s a fair nerf, considering how it was indirectly double buffed.

Let me just explain away a couple of enormous misconceptions you’ve inserted here.

You’re insinuating that maim is competitive with IP. It is not, IP is far stronger, and maim builds are not considered competitively viable. The trait needs direct buffs to be good.

You’re also implying that it being in the master slot means anything at all. It doesn’t. Since specializations mean that you take every line fully; adept, master, and grandmaster are all equally valuable. The only thing that matters is what traits it competes with.

Overall, maim needs buffs in the current meta, let alone the insanely boosted future meta. Your arguments as to why nerfs are justified are both factually inaccurate and ignore the reality of how this game functions.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Before, MtD was a grandmaster trait that got to compete with IP.

Now, MtD is a master trait that gets IP and your grandmaster trait of choice for free.

I believe it’s a fair nerf, considering how it was indirectly double buffed.

Objectively we can currently do a 3 clone shatter for 6 stacks of torment without IP.

If this change goes through, we would be able to do a 3 clone shatter for 4 stacks of torment with IP – providing you also dive into melee to land the extra stack.

I don’t have to say that 4 clone shatters are not frequent compared to two clone ranged shatters or three at a push including shattering yourself. Hence this is a huge nerf.

None of the GM traits in Illusions or traits in any other line make up for that.

Levetty.1279:

Regardless nothing, you said it was fair. Answer the question.

Then it is already answered. You get a GM trait and IP for free, so it easy to understand how the trait is now too strong.

Petition for Anet to ban Karl and Jon from touching mesmer, leaving the decisions up to Robert Gee.

cyyrix.6105:

Petition for Anet to ban Karl and Jon from touching mesmer, leaving the decisions up to Robert Gee.

All of my Yes. Hell, keep ’em away from my Thief, too. >_<

DiogoSilva.7089:

Levetty.1279:

Regardless nothing, you said it was fair. Answer the question.

Then it is already answered. You get a GM trait and IP for free, so it easy to understand how the trait is now too strong.

This must be how the devs think about Mesmer balance:

‘You get IP and a grandmaster for free, so it’s obviously too strong’.

Mindlessly repeating that something is too strong doesn’t make it too strong. People listen better if you apply a bit of brainpower and come up with cogent arguments as to why.

Unfortunately, you won’t be able to do that, because you’re wrong.

“Oh man. Maim the Disillusioned is actually build defining. In hypothetical situations its pretty strong! Look at all the damage it can do to an immobile target that displays the wrong numbers! This has to end. Lets buff engis s’more while we’re at it.”

Chaos Archangel.5071:

“Oh man. Maim the Disillusioned is actually build defining. In hypothetical situations its pretty strong! Look at all the damage it can do to an immobile target that displays the wrong numbers! This has to end. Lets buff engis s’more while we’re at it.”

…Ahem

I told you so.

Really, the devs are playing us all for fools. We’ve been disappointed and angered by their — questionable — decisions so many times before, and most people still give them the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry folks, no doubt left. I feel pretty safe in assuming that anything that seems good for Mesmer will be nerfed before or shortly after release. I’m just waiting to see how they neuter Chronomancer.

Well, until someone shows me some concrete proof, I’m not going to freak out.

Now 30 is approaching so my eyes could be going, but I just double-checked this whole thread and don’t see one link, screenshot, etc..

How about we get actual proof or just wait until tomorrow before we pull out the torches and pitchforks?

I’m going to say it right now … if, when we log in after tomorrow, MtD still applies 2 stacks of torment, you’re going to feel silly at best.

Fay.2357:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

“Oh man. Maim the Disillusioned is actually build defining. In hypothetical situations its pretty strong! Look at all the damage it can do to an immobile target that displays the wrong numbers! This has to end. Lets buff engis s’more while we’re at it.”

…Ahem

I told you so.

Really, the devs are playing us all for fools. We’ve been disappointed and angered by their — questionable — decisions so many times before, and most people still give them the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry folks, no doubt left. I feel pretty safe in assuming that anything that seems good for Mesmer will be nerfed before or shortly after release. I’m just waiting to see how they neuter Chronomancer.

Hey!

You can’t “told-me-so” until they nerf Power Block. Until then, my list of told-you-so’s far outweighs yours right now!

… I’ve just been a gentleman about it. I won’t twist my ’stache until tomorrow.

On this note I think I’m going to continue to hold off on HoT until after it has been released – wait and see how many of the good theoretical changes get nerfed into uselessness before we get to play them.

I prefer that before they nerf it, the devs better wait till the MtD’s practiced en masse. Cause without that torment, we mesmers have horrible condition damage. Not even confusion can cover up our weakness in that.

Sebrent.3625:

Well, until someone shows me some concrete proof, I’m not going to freak out.

Now 30 is approaching so my eyes could be going, but I just double-checked this whole thread and don’t see one link, screenshot, etc..

How about we get actual proof or just wait until tomorrow before we pull out the torches and pitchforks?

I’m going to say it right now … if, when we log in after tomorrow, MtD still applies 2 stacks of torment, you’re going to feel silly at best.

No I will feel good, happy and relieved.

Best time to get loud is right now seeing as they explicitly mentioned it in the stream – which is enough proof that they’re thinking about it.

I will feel 100x more silly if I don’t say anything and they go ahead with the nerf. So my pitchfork is dusted off.

Why all the negativity?

Its OBVIOUS that MtD was way too powerful for Thieves to handle, and therefore it had to be adjusted.

I suspect there will be several more adjustments in the name of favored professions balance.

Sebrent.3625:

Well, until someone shows me some concrete proof, I’m not going to freak out.

Now 30 is approaching so my eyes could be going, but I just double-checked this whole thread and don’t see one link, screenshot, etc..

How about we get actual proof or just wait until tomorrow before we pull out the torches and pitchforks?

I’m going to say it right now … if, when we log in after tomorrow, MtD still applies 2 stacks of torment, you’re going to feel silly at best.

Many of the folks in the thread here were present on the stream when these statements were made in chat. Whether or not the devs come to their senses and don’t nerf it before this sees one second of live play is unknown, but they essentially left the stream with that sentiment.

Look, I don’t know if MtD really is that strong at its new place or not. I’m just saying that I can understand Anet’s logic in this case. There are people in this thread that are talking about this trait’s effectiveness in isolation, regardless of other buffs that indirectly affect it post-patch. My reply was specifically to those people.

Pre-patch, the mesmer’s illusion trait line offers the following for condition builds:

• Confusion on shatter
• 33% confusion duration
• More staff bounces
• Might on shatter
• Torment on shatter or Illusionary Persona

Post-patch, the mesmer’s illusion trait line and the new baseline effects will offer the following for condition builds:

• Confusion on shatter
• 33% confusion duration
• More staff bounces
• Illusionary Persona
• 50-150 condition damage per illusion
• Might or Torment on shatter
• Blind and Confusion on Blind (or the other two)
• Condition damage stat scaling higher

I’m noy saying that MtD will be too strong, because I actually don’t know. I am saying, however, that I can understand how there’s a risk of it being too strong in pvp. Yes, mesmer no longer get might on shatter in order to be able to use it, but 8 (instead of 6) stacks of torment for each shatter, after condition damage being buffed, and still getting extra confusion and blind on top of it (or extra crowd control, or stronger buffs to condition weapons). If anything – and I didn’t do the math – the nerfed version of MtD might not be too far in power from the old/ current version of MtD, all things considered – and condition builds might still end up in a better place, overall.

Advent.6193:

cyyrix.6105:

Petition for Anet to ban Karl and Jon from touching mesmer, leaving the decisions up to Robert Gee.

All of my Yes. Hell, keep ’em away from my Thief, too. >_<

Double amen.

I don’t know if this nerf is Karl or Jon’s doing but it became clear to me from watching the live stream that very few people at Anet know what they are doing as far as class balancing/design is concerned. Some of these lead designers (not counting Robert) seemed to know little about their classes outside of the notes they came prepared with.

As someone who stood by mtd ever since the september balance last year Im agreeing with the devs on this one. People in this thread are tunnel visioning.

Unlike before, mtd WONT be our sole and most valuable condition trait. With the patch on tuesday we are getting many new ways to apply confusion, buffs to pistol which is our best and most reliable source of bleeding, big buffs to scepter if you take the new grand master, high protection uptime with staff, buffs to stealth duration, a complete rework of the confusion condition and on top of all this IP is becoming baseline and mtd is becoming a master trait.

I think mesmer will do just fine stacking conditions on a target even with a nerf to mtd. Furthermore, we now have a much more potent array of conditions rather than purely relying on torment and the odd confusion spike.

Edit.

I agree, karl shouldnt be allowed to touch mesmer, his ridiculous comments and changes to thief were like watching a little boy in a candy shop and hes proven in the past that he doesnt understand mesmer as well as some of the other devs.

Confusing Combatants was removed and replaced with a trait that grants fury when striking an enemy below 50% health, 5s ICD. Good for power, less so for condi builds speccing into dueling.

I can’t wait for the quick handed changes to Chronomancer.

fluxit.8247:

Unlike before, mtd WONT be our sole and most valuable condition trait. With the patch on tuesday we are getting many new ways to apply confusion, buffs to pistol which is our best and most reliable source of bleeding, big buffs to scepter if you take the new grand master, high protection uptime with staff, buffs to stealth duration, a complete rework of the confusion condition and on top of all this IP is becoming baseline and mtd is becoming a master trait.

I think mesmer will do just fine stacking conditions on a target even with a nerf to mtd. Furthermore, we now have a much more potent array of conditions rather than purely relying on torment and the odd confusion spike.

I think you’re entirely wrong.

MtD is our only source of burst torment outside of the scepter block. We’ve always had a bit of bleed pressure from sharper images, and the pistol trait isn’t really going to make any groundbreaking changes there. We still have poor access to burning and poison aaaaand that’s it.

Without MtD we’re left with a bunch of various ways to apply confusion, none of which are better than what an engineer can do, and that’s about it.

I’m sorry, did i miss something? was there another live stream today? If there was, is it posted somewhere or are there notes up?

Dulfy haven’t update much.

I agree with Pyro on this one, essentially they’re removing reasons to shatter your illusions by nerfing Maim back to 1 year ago, back to when no one really use it. That was a time when people take PU over Maim, why? Because illusions can deal more condi damage with bleed and auto than shattering.

I’m speaking from experience as well fluxit, I bought tormenting runes when Maim the disillusioned first came out, and I melt the gear and shove it in my bank when I find it lackluster compare to instant damage from power. I craft out gears again when I find they change it to 6s, but again I melt gears and store those runes when opponent can clear torment stacks before torment realize their full potential.

I finally manage to keep those gear when MtD is buffed to 2 stacks, but it doesn’t make me OP in WvW. It simply means torment stacks can at least match up to the burst nature of shatter, allowing you to deal at least some damage before it’s cleansed.

I can assure you, competent opponents rarely let those torment stacks last full duration unless they have very little condi cleanse, which won’t be a problem after the patch anyway.

Ehrm… the 3rd minor trait in dueling isn’t confusing combatants anymore but a trait that grants 5s of fury whenever we hit a target with less than 75% hp. (some icd) does someone know all changes we didn’t know yet? Did any of the streamers go through all of these?

Me Games Ma.8426:

Ehrm… the 3rd minor trait in dueling isn’t confusing combatants anymore but a trait that grants 5s of fury whenever we hit a target with less than 75% hp. (some icd) does someone know all changes we didn’t know yet? Did any of the streamers go through all of these?

Not too happy about confusing combatants being removed but this does help with the fact that Mesmer hasn’t the best access to fury (depending on the icd). Wonder what else is different.

Not looking good for Condition Mesmer.

I logged in to post exactly that, Me Games Ma! The cooldown was 5 sec … so you should be able to maintain permanent Fury up time if you can get your opponent below 75% health.

As interesting as I though the previous trait was, I like this change as it benefits both condition and power builds.

Just like at launch, the mesmer will never be allowed to live.

Allarius.5670:

I logged in to post exactly that, Me Games Ma! The cooldown was 5 sec … so you should be able to maintain permanent Fury up time if you can get your opponent below 75% health.

As interesting as I though the previous trait was, I like this change as it benefits both condition and power builds.

How does that help a condition build? Fury on us has no affect on our illusions… and w/o confusing combatants we’re not producing conditions on crit either.

Hmmm, hopefully they don’t just halve the effect – though I see the reasons for the change. For a standard maim build it looked borderline, but IP allows abusing it – especially with signet of illusions and/or continuum shift.

I would kinda like to see it add 1 long stack if they have 3 or less stacks already, then switch to multiple short stacks if they have more than 4. Mainly because it sounds like a fun mechanic

Is there any confirmation that it is down to 1 stack with no accompanying duration increase? Even if they added a duration increase though, it really doesn’t help. The point is to “burst,” which means more stacks and less duration. They should have just nerfed duration.

Don’t forget also the changes to confusion. When you shatter you apply torment and a non-useless version of confusion. It’s not obvious to me that this nerf to MtD means condi mesmer is done.

I really think people are majorly overreacting with all this “shelve my mesmer” stuff. We still got a huge amount of buffs, and it remains to be seen what kind of condi builds we can do. I mean isn’t chaos/dueling/illusions going to be pretty crazy? All the staff goodness, PU, scepter and torch buffs, DE and bleeds and confusion on crits. Yeah, not at all obvious to me that this is the end of the world…

Edit Edit: Just read about confusing combatants change; this is dumb.

Me Games Ma.8426:

Ehrm… the 3rd minor trait in dueling isn’t confusing combatants anymore but a trait that grants 5s of fury whenever we hit a target with less than 75% hp. (some icd) does someone know all changes we didn’t know yet? Did any of the streamers go through all of these?

There are no words.

we have to make our voice heard.
nerf Mtd stacks is a mistake.
like someone reasoned before, this is not like there is no counter to the torment stacks. people have tons of condi cleanse. and we exchange our sustain for burst damage, and this is not only true for the power spec but also the case for condi shatter spec as well.
DEV SHOULD NERF THE DURATION BUT NOT STACKS.
a full shatter, 8 stacks is very rare, most of time we get 6 stacks.
in a power shatter build, you get instant damage that happens with no counter play once landed. but condi shatter spec do not get their damage at the point of shatter, rather they have to wait until the damage happen, and there is time for counter play, this already put them at a disadvantage.

Or at least make it 6 max per shatter, or something like that. Maybe only illusions that are shattered stack torment, never the mesmer’s IP? I’d prefer this…

Or have it in a stacking effect that takes IP to account. Make it as more shatter hits, the more damage and torment the attacker should be rewarded with. For this example:

1 – 1 stack of torment
2 – 3 total stacks of torment
3 – 6 total stacks of torment
4 – 8 or 10 stacks of torment

MSFone.3026:

I really think people are majorly overreacting with all this “shelve my mesmer” stuff. We still got a huge amount of buffs, and it remains to be seen what kind of condi builds we can do. I mean isn’t chaos/dueling/illusions going to be pretty crazy? All the staff goodness, PU, scepter and torch buffs, DE and bleeds and confusion on crits. Yeah, not at all obvious to me that this is the end of the world…

Edit Edit: Just read about confusing combatants change; this is dumb.

Its too early to see how this change will play out but I’m worried about what this nerf foretells of our future. Robert has given me hope that our class can be viable/powerful/fun to play once again but if past experience is anything to go on, this nerf is just the beginning of a series of nerfs to our class that will ultimately lead us back to the situation we were in before this trait revamp.

There will be lots of cries of nerfing 6/23 for all classes and my hope is that Anet does not overreact and nerf abilities/traits into the ground as an easy fix which has been Anets approach in the past.

We’ve gone down this road before and I won’t be shelving my mesmer if this is to occur again but I won’t delude myself into ever getting hyped about mesmer changes again only to have the rug pulled out from underneath us.

Remember the last version of confusing combatants worked out to 1 second per crit – at best that’s about 3 constant stacks. They might have added that 5-confusion stack trigger back elsewhere to make it up? Better mechanic anyway…

I’d be cool with an added feature to Miam or maybe even into MS to keep players specialized. Adding a 50% chance to apply 2 stacks of torment for 6 seconds when you apply torment (2-5 sec c/d)

Although the nerf is a little hard I can kind of see where 8 stacks per shatter might be a bit much. But flat 4 is way to low.

Me Games Ma.8426:

Ehrm… the 3rd minor trait in dueling isn’t confusing combatants anymore but a trait that grants 5s of fury whenever we hit a target with less than 75% hp. (some icd) does someone know all changes we didn’t know yet? Did any of the streamers go through all of these?

ok so I’m not crazy… in the build they were playing it was changed to that crappy trait… If that trait actually makes to the game along with MtD nerf, condi mesmers will probably be worse off than before…

Maybe that golem was secretly a thief and went crying on the forums…

So many people here were on the stream and saw it but not one person pressed Print Screen? At best you’re slackers! :-p

I’m sticking with “wait and see” … less than 24 hours … I’ve waited longer than that before.

So basically we know that:
- conditions on clone death are being removed

and it seems that :
- MtD is being nerfed
- confusing combattant is being removed

I am concerned for my condition mesmer now; we might have a lot of troubles keeping up with the other classes. I also don’t understand why some of the devs seem like they don’t communicate with each other: how is it that 1 dev take a decision, and then another dev comes behind and after giving a simple look undo/modify that change just like that.

I’m secretly hoping the removal of confusing combatants means they keep MtD at.2 stacks per illusion.

It’s sad to see confusing combatants go without having tried it, but I’d rather lose that and keep MtD as it is compared with the other way around.

Of course if we lose both then that’s stupid and I won’t be a happy bunny.

Fay.2357:

fluxit.8247:

Unlike before, mtd WONT be our sole and most valuable condition trait. With the patch on tuesday we are getting many new ways to apply confusion, buffs to pistol which is our best and most reliable source of bleeding, big buffs to scepter if you take the new grand master, high protection uptime with staff, buffs to stealth duration, a complete rework of the confusion condition and on top of all this IP is becoming baseline and mtd is becoming a master trait.

I think mesmer will do just fine stacking conditions on a target even with a nerf to mtd. Furthermore, we now have a much more potent array of conditions rather than purely relying on torment and the odd confusion spike.

I think you’re entirely wrong.

MtD is our only source of burst torment outside of the scepter block. We’ve always had a bit of bleed pressure from sharper images, and the pistol trait isn’t really going to make any groundbreaking changes there. We still have poor access to burning and poison aaaaand that’s it.

Without MtD we’re left with a bunch of various ways to apply confusion, none of which are better than what an engineer can do, and that’s about it.

How could I possible argue with a ‘this is true because I say so argument’. Its like youre a believer in the many faced god ‘It is known’. :p

To be fair though I made my comments on the matter before I found out that they got rid of confusing combatants. I cant believe they just dropped it.

Im beginning to agree with the sentiments of this thread. Mesmer is in no doubt headed down nerf bat lane again. Please no. Im so excited for the new mesmer. Its the only thing that really keeps me playing.