Guild Wars 2

I hope that if they really do apply those 2 big last minutes changes, that it will be confirmed openly and officially by the devs…..i don’t know , or maybe just a red post or something.

So the IP going baseline basically becomes a nerf to existing MtD Mesmers. WTG Anet!

However, the problem with all of this really isn’t about what this does to Condition focused Mesmer builds that were never competitive or popular to begin with, but the simple fact that once again Power Shatter becomes the very clear winner as build choice.

At best we’ll see Power Interrupt and Support builds emerge as secondary options, but due to the nature of Interrupts and the fact that support Mesmers will have to fight for a role that hasn’t been defined (yet at least), I doubt these will be remotely competitive to the much boosted Power-Shatter builds. (Of which there will be variants I’m sure, such as incorporating Interrupts and/or support with P-Shatter.)

I don’t really like the removal of Confusing Combatants either. It’s yet another direct nerf to Condition damage builds, which after the complete neutering of MtD will just exacerbate the ineffectiveness of building for Conditions. The GM Chaos trait BD will give you AoE Fury on F3, you can get Fury off SoInsp & CI, not to mention off the Pack Runes since you no longer need Centaur or Travelers. Also remember, the Torch Phantasm now gives Fury! So this trait will be pretty useless for Torch users in general.

It doesn’t help Condition builds at all either, since we no longer have anything that procs Conditions on Crit reliably! (Sharper Images only works on our illusions and Fury doesn’t pass on to Clones.) So this is yet another straight up nerf to Condition builds.

Very disappointed in Anet over this knee-jerk stuff at the last moment.

As for the Confusion update, there is no magic here! We know the formula, and we know it won’t be a significant difference to the current one. You’re just trading a good portion of the burst potential, for a relatively weak DoT so you gain somewhat reliable damage at the cost of burst. Here is to skilled play, SPAM AWAY it won’t hurt anymore!!!

And no, not even Inception with DE (clearly a must have once again!) and it’s “Blind on Shatter”, will make up for the loss of 50% nerf to MtD. (An already underperforming trait in the current game!)

I’m not going to take my toys and go home. I just won’t be speccing for Conditions on my Mesmer, and at the slim chance that Condition builds on other classes become OPd, I will just spec into Inspiration which will basically ensure nearly complete immunity to Conditions.

The main problem with this nerf is that they once again just broke our optimism and trust in their balance process. I now have no doubts that Chronomancy will be nerfed into near uselessness, and it quite frankly is already not looking that strong outside of the 1-trick-pony F5. If it can’t replace Dueling & DE, it will have a hard time finding room in a Power Shatter build…which will still be meta for Mesmers with MtD nerfed into the ground.

What sucks about this is that the new dueling trait in place of confusing combatants is only a buff to solo damage. So it only affects pvp roamers who duel or spvp power builds.

But for PvE, this change is a nerf. In PvE, elementalists and warriors can provide permanent fury uptime for the entire group, so this trait is entirely wasted on the mesmer.

I’m gonna like it while soloing on my mesmer because it is true mesmer self-buffed damage is terrible with no reliable access to fury or mightstacking (just like ranger).

But in groups I’ll barely notice it. I would have rather they had given use a % damage modifier while we are affected by fury. God knows mesmer still needs some modifiers to catch up to elementalists, and as far as thieves well thieves are just gonnaa blow everyone out of the water in damage output after the patch.

Here’s some food for thought though: http://www.twitch.tv/shinryuku_ku/v/6476506 skip ahead to 3:20:00 ish mark. One of the preview streamers tried a condition style mesmer. Although it was a terrible build and something he hashed together in about 30 seconds the condition output was still quite high when he shattered properly.

Velimere.7685:

Me Games Ma.8426:

Ehrm… the 3rd minor trait in dueling isn’t confusing combatants anymore but a trait that grants 5s of fury whenever we hit a target with less than 75% hp. (some icd) does someone know all changes we didn’t know yet? Did any of the streamers go through all of these?

There are no words.

This change is good in my opinion. Duelling is about crits and evades, not conditions. Fury is also something shatter mesmer and interrupt mes can make use of.
However, the MtD change is bad bad bad for condi mesmer.

fluxit.8247:

Here’s some food for thought though: http://www.twitch.tv/shinryuku_ku/v/6476506 skip ahead to 3:20:00 ish mark. One of the preview streamers tried a condition style mesmer. Although it was a terrible build and something he hashed together in about 30 seconds the condition output was still quite high when he shattered properly.

So?

EDIT: And next he shows a warrior. And he just destroys his sparring partner not even being anywhere near bothered by his attacks. And the damage output with that warrior is worlds stronger with several 4k instant hits in a short time. This video shows nothing and doesn’t provide any clue for anything.

I can’t even get through the entire first page of this thread without being sorely disappointed in the devs. It’s just so insulting that they are quick to “hot-fix” nerfs to Mesmer skills while it takes them half a year to shave a percentage off of Warrior’s healing signet.

So basically, my condition shatter build is going to go from being currently subpar to completely unviable??? Wow. And I’m not even touching on the minor gm trait in Dueling. I hope that isn’t true…

edited to add: I try to support the devs and stick up for them whenever it’s possible, but I’m just saddened and disappointed by these knee-jerk changes.

Quadox.7834:

Velimere.7685:

Me Games Ma.8426:

Ehrm… the 3rd minor trait in dueling isn’t confusing combatants anymore but a trait that grants 5s of fury whenever we hit a target with less than 75% hp. (some icd) does someone know all changes we didn’t know yet? Did any of the streamers go through all of these?

There are no words.

This change is good in my opinion. Duelling is about crits and evades, not conditions. Fury is also something shatter mesmer and interrupt mes can make use of.
However, the MtD change is bad bad bad for condi mesmer.

Duelist’s Discipline, Sharper Images and Mistrust say hello.

And they leave in some stuff like Rending Shatter, a trait that will never be close to competing with Confounding Suggestions.
One of the bad traits we mesmers hat before the patch. Devs saying it’s a “decent” one… I cannot understand this.

How about we get the Fury trait in that slot and Confusing Combatants back?!

If they ninja change it beforehand without the community as a whole testing it, I’m gonna be pretty kitten upset.

TyPin.9860:

fluxit.8247:

Here’s some food for thought though: http://www.twitch.tv/shinryuku_ku/v/6476506 skip ahead to 3:20:00 ish mark. One of the preview streamers tried a condition style mesmer. Although it was a terrible build and something he hashed together in about 30 seconds the condition output was still quite high when he shattered properly.

So?

EDIT: And next he shows a warrior. And he just destroys his sparring partner not even being anywhere near bothered by his attacks. And the damage output with that warrior is worlds stronger with several 4k instant hits in a short time. This video shows nothing and doesn’t provide any clue for anything.

Wow….just wow. Great replies so far guy. Just fantastic. :/

SO!?

This thread is about the mesmer community’s worries about our ability to stack conditions after the mtd nerf. This streamer used a less than optimal build against Koroshi, a very well known roaming streamer, and was able to stack enough conditions on him to down him a couple of times.

I’m making a very simple observation. Nothing more, nothing less. Thank you for your kind reply.

MailMail.6534:

Quadox.7834:

Velimere.7685:

Me Games Ma.8426:

Ehrm… the 3rd minor trait in dueling isn’t confusing combatants anymore but a trait that grants 5s of fury whenever we hit a target with less than 75% hp. (some icd) does someone know all changes we didn’t know yet? Did any of the streamers go through all of these?

There are no words.

This change is good in my opinion. Duelling is about crits and evades, not conditions. Fury is also something shatter mesmer and interrupt mes can make use of.
However, the MtD change is bad bad bad for condi mesmer.

Duelist’s Discipline, Sharper Images and Mistrust say hello.

With a 50% critchance the average bleed by one traited iDuelist is 9.33
4 stacks by critical hits using Sharper Images
8*0.33*2= 5.33 using Duelist’s Discipline.
Not Bad imo.

With Phantasmal Fury the average is lower.
8*0.7=5.6

With Confusing Combatants beming removed that’s sadly our only good condition applycation in dueling :/ Mind that it’s only bleeding.

Curunen.8729:

As a comparison – with power shatter you can demolish a target golem effortlessly, and that will be even more the case after tomorrow.

The whole idea with condition shatter is condition burst – so I don’t see what the problem is with high damage ticks. If you miss your shatter, you miss your damage just like with power. The only thing condition has over power is the luxury of speccing more toughness – but then you trade off being able to 100-0 your target in 1 second (exaggeration but you get the point). You also don’t have to worry about cleansing if playing power.

And I still can’t help laughing that a single scepter 2 block will do more damage than a 4 clone shatter if this change goes through. Change kittening scepter to 4 stacks if it’s so scary and reduce the duration.

I dunno why I’m bothering posting this – maybe in the wild hope that some dev is reading this thread and reconsiders the change.

Neeewww Arena net! No nerfy my illusionary counter DX

I’ll be ok with them replacing confusing combatants with this new fury minor IF they do one of the following-

A) remove phantasmal Fury and make fury on us affect our illusions’ crit rate.
or
B) Combine phantasmal fury into this new minor

I figured that confusion on crit was gonna go, just way too much stacking potential especially on condi builds.

Disappointed by MtD though, I’d like to see 2 stacks or if only 1 stack of torment a much longer duration of say 8s so you can get some nice stacking without blowing all your shatters.

I guess the cries of OP are getting listened to without people realising how easy it is to neuter mesmers.

Mikkel.8427:

I’ll be ok with them replacing confusing combatants with this new fury minor IF they do one of the following-

A) remove phantasmal Fury and make fury on us affect our illusions’ crit rate.
or
B) Combine phantasmal fury into this new minor

+1

fluxit.8247:

This thread is about the mesmer community’s worries about our ability to stack conditions after the mtd nerf. This streamer used a less than optimal build against Koroshi, a very well known roaming streamer, and was able to stack enough conditions on him to down him a couple of times.

Setting aside that that is a poster child definition of “knee jerk” balancing, due to a ludicrously small sample size that you’re basing the adjustment on…

Let’s just assume you’re right. So instead of achieving balance here via careful tweaking of new abilities, we take a chainsaw to a trait that has never been deemed viable before? A 50% nerf is not exactly a “small and careful adjustment” it can easily end up making that trait completely worthless. (And in the opinion of many that have actually played with MtD for a while, it will do exactly that.)

If something that clearly wasn’t overpowered before, in fact quite the opposite, how then does it make sense to target this trait, rather than the many other new variables in the equation? I’ll tell you why! Because it’s an easy target for lazy people who really don’t care how it works out in the end. Anyone else would have thought up a different, more careful approach, than to whack something into oblivion with a giant nerf-bat.

Again, the most entertaining part is that this comes after the removal of the +50% damage bonus to Torment damage on moving targets for traited Scepter! lol! That kinda reminds me of the title of a new GM trait in Illusions.

A single stack of Torment per shatter is just plain bad as long as CoF remains on double the CD as MW. It literally kills the concept of a Condition Shatter build in one fell swoop. (Especially considering how bad CoF is compared to MW.)

Oh I’m certain we’ll still have single target Condition builds that will rock other classes pants off in 1v1…but so what? We’ve always had this with PU/Condie builds. The problem is that our ability to pump out viable AoE condition damage to even remotely compete with Power-Shatter, is gone. Added to that, Power Shatter has gained a lot of survivability, making the entire reason to go Condie Shatter much less desireable than before already. Now, with lacking AoE damage output, there really isn’t much of a reason to go for Conditions on a Mesmer, with the same old exception as before to solo roam and 1v1.

So I guess they balance Mesmers around 1v1 performance, but not anyone else. Got it!

If this is true Why change confusing combatants? You didn’t even give the community the chance to even play test it yet, please change it back.

Countless

Windwalker.7421:

fluxit.8247:

This thread is about the mesmer community’s worries about our ability to stack conditions after the mtd nerf. This streamer used a less than optimal build against Koroshi, a very well known roaming streamer, and was able to stack enough conditions on him to down him a couple of times.

Setting aside that that is a poster child definition of “knee jerk” balancing, due to a ludicrously small sample size that you’re basing the adjustment on…

Let’s just assume you’re right. So instead of achieving balance here via careful tweaking of new abilities, we take a chainsaw to a trait that has never been deemed viable before? A 50% nerf is not exactly a “small and careful adjustment” it can easily end up making that trait completely worthless. (And in the opinion of many that have actually played with MtD for a while, it will do exactly that.)

If something that clearly wasn’t overpowered before, in fact quite the opposite, how then does it make sense to target this trait, rather than the many other new variables in the equation? I’ll tell you why! Because it’s an easy target for lazy people who really don’t care how it works out in the end. Anyone else would have thought up a different, more careful approach, than to whack something into oblivion with a giant nerf-bat.

Again, the most entertaining part is that this comes after the removal of the +50% damage bonus to Torment damage on moving targets for traited Scepter! lol! That kinda reminds me of the title of a new GM trait in Illusions.

A single stack of Torment per shatter is just plain bad as long as CoF remains on double the CD as MW. It literally kills the concept of a Condition Shatter build in one fell swoop. (Especially considering how bad CoF is compared to MW.)

Oh I’m certain we’ll still have single target Condition builds that will rock other classes pants off in 1v1…but so what? We’ve always had this with PU/Condie builds. The problem is that our ability to pump out viable AoE condition damage to even remotely compete with Power-Shatter, is gone. Added to that, Power Shatter has gained a lot of survivability, making the entire reason to go Condie Shatter much less desireable than before already. Now, with lacking AoE damage output, there really isn’t much of a reason to go for Conditions on a Mesmer, with the same old exception as before to solo roam and 1v1.

So I guess they balance Mesmers around 1v1 performance, but not anyone else. Got it!

+1

Stop being so right. I am saddened. I’ve been a champion of the MTD playstyle since they buffed it to its current non-competitive state. This change combined with the erasure of Confusing Combatants totally guts what bit of viability MTD already had. And this is all happening days before it’s even released to the public?! What in the actual kitten?!

idgi

Honestly I never liked the sound of confusing combatants, why gut clone death and then implement an equally passive source of even more damaging condition application.
MTD getting gutted seems a bit senseless, even if it wasn’t my fav playstyle.

Neptune.2570:

Honestly I never liked the sound of confusing combatants, why gut clone death and then implement an equally passive source of even more damaging condition application.
MTD getting gutted seems a bit senseless, even if it wasn’t my fav playstyle.

What you don’t seem to understand about it, is even IF you crit, it’s still a 1/3 chance of a stack of confusion still being applied. It’s not a broken trait.

Trigr.6481:

Neptune.2570:

Honestly I never liked the sound of confusing combatants, why gut clone death and then implement an equally passive source of even more damaging condition application.
MTD getting gutted seems a bit senseless, even if it wasn’t my fav playstyle.

What you don’t seem to understand about it, is even IF you crit, it’s still a 1/3 chance of a stack of confusion still being applied. It’s not a broken trait.

I don’t think it’s broken, just against the play that the Dev’s were going for. In the removal of it there should have been other options, and that’s why I’m very against MTD getting gutted. Thats exactly the sort of condi application we should have.

Windwalker.7421:

Setting aside that that is a poster child definition of “knee jerk” balancing, due to a ludicrously small sample size that you’re basing the adjustment on…

Let’s just assume you’re right. So instead of achieving balance here via careful tweaking of new abilities, we take a chainsaw to a trait that has never been deemed viable before? A 50% nerf is not exactly a “small and careful adjustment” it can easily end up making that trait completely worthless. (And in the opinion of many that have actually played with MtD for a while, it will do exactly that.)

If something that clearly wasn’t overpowered before, in fact quite the opposite, how then does it make sense to target this trait, rather than the many other new variables in the equation? I’ll tell you why! Because it’s an easy target for lazy people who really don’t care how it works out in the end. Anyone else would have thought up a different, more careful approach, than to whack something into oblivion with a giant nerf-bat.

Again, the most entertaining part is that this comes after the removal of the +50% damage bonus to Torment damage on moving targets for traited Scepter! lol! That kinda reminds me of the title of a new GM trait in Illusions.

A single stack of Torment per shatter is just plain bad as long as CoF remains on double the CD as MW. It literally kills the concept of a Condition Shatter build in one fell swoop. (Especially considering how bad CoF is compared to MW.)

Oh I’m certain we’ll still have single target Condition builds that will rock other classes pants off in 1v1…but so what? We’ve always had this with PU/Condie builds. The problem is that our ability to pump out viable AoE condition damage to even remotely compete with Power-Shatter, is gone. Added to that, Power Shatter has gained a lot of survivability, making the entire reason to go Condie Shatter much less desireable than before already. Now, with lacking AoE damage output, there really isn’t much of a reason to go for Conditions on a Mesmer, with the same old exception as before to solo roam and 1v1.

So I guess they balance Mesmers around 1v1 performance, but not anyone else. Got it!

I dont disagree with anything besides the low blow in the first paragraph.

Initially I was on the side of the devs until I saw that they just binned confusing combatants before we got a chance to playtest it. Im now dissappointed.

I merely added the link as a point of observation. I wasnt trying to prove a point but some of you guys are out for blood obviously.

Get a grip.

I think people are just justifiably outraged, because once again, the Devs like to take 1 step forward and 10 back with the Mesmer community. Anger is bound to be misdirected when discussing such issues…

Trigr.6481:

What you don’t seem to understand about it, is even IF you crit, it’s still a 1/3 chance of a stack of confusion still being applied. It’s not a broken trait.

Exactly! It was pretty obviously OPd in the first incarnation where it was a 100% chance to proc on crit, but it was fine after that was lowered to 33%. In fact, I was a bit upset about that because it basically again targeted the wrong issue!

If the problem obviously is (GS) Clones AA’ing for massive Confusion stacks, then why not simply remove the part about Illusions and change it to either Phantasms or even just the Mesmer him/her self?

I was seriously looking forward to having Sword be a potential Condition weapon, by making BF apply multiple stacks of Confusion. I don’t think this is OPd in the least, but would actually create a bit more variety.

It’s really lame and inexcusable that MtD was offered at the altar of lazy balancing, because of numerous other minor adjustments made such as Vulnerability, Confusion, Conditions in general, etc. Basically, all these things will help Engies and Necros, but we get our only viable form of AoE Condition damage output nerfed as a consequence of these individual little changes that obviously synergize to create imbalances. (Obvious, because clearly MtD was balanced before. It’s not the added 2 stacks in melee range that warrant a 50% nerf!)

If this nerf is any indication of Anets balancing process in the next few weeks, we’re going to be drowning in tears on all forums…not just this one.

Wait, so let me get this straight….

1. Anet introduced MtD, a underpowered GM trait applying 1 torment on shatter
2. They buffed it, now applying 2 torment on shatter. Some people actually start playing with the trait.
3. Anet then teases us new traits like increased torment damage and confusion on crit.
4. Anet completely scraps those traits, cause they might be too powerful in a condi build.
5. MtD gets nerfed back to its original pitiful state because of those theoretical traits that never existed.

It’s getting harder and harder to not insult someone because of this flawless logic. MtD will be the same crap as they introduced it, that one additional stack (IP) won’t make a difference. Way to go, anet… way to go.

fluxit.8247:

I dont disagree with anything besides the low blow in the first paragraph.

Sorry, I don’t follow that part. Nothing I said was directed at you. I meant the dev team basing their nerf decision on either the Golem, or the video you referred to of a 1v1 fight. (Which I couldn’t see, it didn’t load up for me.)

That’s not exactly sound evidence there to act upon IMHO. That was not direct at you at all.

The only other low blow was the GM in Illusions. :P

Exciton.8942:

Happicakes.2054:

Well, it looks like nerfs to MTD are already confirmed by Jon Peters and Karl in chat : ( (8 torment stacks at 3.1K a tic when standing still was pretty awe inspiring)

3.1K?How did you get that number?
The standing still formula for torment is
1.5+(0.225*Level)+(0.055*Condition Damage)
using Rapid amulet and condie rune would be 1375 condie dmg
So level 80, the damage per second should be 95.125, 8 stacks gives 761

I might have missed something important. But 3.1K is still HUGE.

If it helps I think they were using the new rampager amulet (could be misremembering it though).

fluxit.8247:

TyPin.9860:

fluxit.8247:

Here’s some food for thought though: http://www.twitch.tv/shinryuku_ku/v/6476506 skip ahead to 3:20:00 ish mark. One of the preview streamers tried a condition style mesmer. Although it was a terrible build and something he hashed together in about 30 seconds the condition output was still quite high when he shattered properly.

So?

EDIT: And next he shows a warrior. And he just destroys his sparring partner not even being anywhere near bothered by his attacks. And the damage output with that warrior is worlds stronger with several 4k instant hits in a short time. This video shows nothing and doesn’t provide any clue for anything.

Wow….just wow. Great replies so far guy. Just fantastic. :/

SO!?

This thread is about the mesmer community’s worries about our ability to stack conditions after the mtd nerf. This streamer used a less than optimal build against Koroshi, a very well known roaming streamer, and was able to stack enough conditions on him to down him a couple of times.

I’m making a very simple observation. Nothing more, nothing less. Thank you for your kind reply.

You show one example of one guy against another guy. This “plain observation” and the way you present it does nothing but support the bias against Mesmers. Even considering it’s nothing more then anecdotal evidence in video form. How can one conclude anything from this? And I already explained, how later he moved to warrior in the video and was way more successful with way less effort.

I will repeat it: This video you linked gives no actual information. It’s like I say: I managed to do 9000 Rytlocks. Without context, it doesn’t mean anything. And for you have not provided any context (nor does the video in a sufficient manner) I remain with:

So?

cyyrix.6105:

Petition for Anet to ban Karl and Jon from touching mesmer, leaving the decisions up to Robert Gee.

Just ban Karl and Jon from balance decisions altogether. They’re clearly happy with having two classes be better at literally everything than the rest while everybody else gets pre-emptively nerfed despite having to work harder to hit their theoretical top performance in the first place.

Get some fresh blood in there and form an actual Balance team. Let the class devs establish the play patterns, but have someone else review the numbers before release.

fluxit.8247:

I dont disagree with anything besides the low blow in the first paragraph.

Low blow? If nerfing a trait before releasing it to the public because of the numbers you got against a kittening target dummy isn’t the definition of “knee jerk”, I don’t know what is.

This makes no sense.

If torment is that OP then scepter will be OP, using autos from clones and the block skill?

Firstly – I think a 50% nerf to a trait that was already deemed ineffective at that potency and marginally acceptable at the improved potency is a bit much. There ARE reasons that the trait might now need to be nerfed but I think there are other ways to do it (lesser duration, shatter is intended to be bursty).

However, I am a bit disappointed in some of the wailing and gnashing of teeth, especially from some of the more frequent names in the community. We are receiving some amazing changes guys, and we have people now threatening to shelve their Mesmers over off-handed hearsay? Don’t get me wrong, I won’t be surprised at all if it occurs but seriously guys, this patch is still the best thing for the Mesmer in ages.

Two of the things Robert Gee mentioned as things they were watching carefully were Illusionary Persona baseline and Confusing Combatants. Both of the complaints here are related to that (the latter apparently being replaced sadly. I’m iffy on that one still). Illusionary Persona as a baseline ability is HUGE for us and they are understandably wary.

Shatter conditions was/is potentially very potent. And MTD itself was never combo-able with Illusionary Persona previously because they were both GM traits. To illustrate just what IP being baseline does for us:

Traits (Dom, Duelist, Illusions)
-Confounding Suggestions
-Blurred Inscriptions: Signet CD reduction, condition cleanse, and distortion.
-Blinding Dissipation: Shatters blind in an AoE
-MTD: Shatters inflict 2 (1) Torment
-Ineptitude: Blinds inflict 1 confusion
-Illusionary Retribution: Shatters inflict 1 confusion.

Utility
-Signet of Illusions
-Mimic
-Signet of Midnight

Combo the above and you can shatter twelve times without summoning a single illusion. This gives you the following in the area around you:

12 x Blind: good luck hitting you during this.
30 x Confusion (1 per shatter = 12, 1 per blind = 12, 2 per COF = 6)
24 x Torment
4x 1.25s Daze (single target, at least 1 of these will be a stun.)
20x Vuln from Dazes (Dazzling minor trait. Potentially more if you interrupt even once. Note that this now affects condition damage and domination makes Vuln 50% more effective to you, so 30% bonus dmg).
4s Distortion
Mind Wrack: if the numbers haven’t changed then the total damage is approximately that of two 3 illusion shatters (w/o IP) pre-patch.

All of this with +20% condition duration (a much harder to obtain stat), another potential AoE blind (and thus more confusion) and without using a single weapon skill, elite, or summoning an illusion. There is so little activation time in is combo that it could be mindlessly macro’d and even if MTD is nerfed probably will be. Any most enemies are going to have a difficult time stopping you during it between the ridiculous number of blinds and the fact that you’ll likely have distortion at the beginning and end of each cycle (end each shatter with distortion, then gain it again when you activate SoIllusions). Do so much as actually use your weapon skills to start the first round of shatters off with 3 illusions and it becomes 39 confusion and 30 torment.

TLDR: yea it kinda sucks but we still did kitten good guys. Relax and wait for the patch.

The removal of confusing combatants I find is pretty lame. Ineptitude is good along with blind on shatters but even as a non condi build I was looking forward to clones actually pressuring and punishing thieves for whiffs.

Dastion, your problem is that you’re doing what I think I’m going to start calling ‘Target Golem Balancing’. You’re assuming that your opponents are target golems, and drawing conclusions appropriately.

While you’re busy mashing all of your buttons (which, by the way, will leave you with zero condition removal, zero mobility, and zero stunbreaks), do you really think your opponent is just sitting there watching you?

No, of course they aren’t. They’ll dodge away, or even just walk away and counter your entire thing.

“Shatter conditions was/is potentially very potent”

Don’t make me laugh now, because this is just absurd. Shatter conditions was fun…but not that effective against any decent team comp. You could use it, but it had problems. Now it’s even worse than before. The potential for stacking torment post-patch will be lower than pre-patch even if you get melee range for IP. That’s really messed up.

Now sure, interrupts and power shatter got some decent buffs (that haven’t been nerfed yet at least), but that completely ignores the problem here. The devs, with these changes, are essentially deleting condition Mesmer in all forms from a PvP environment. Every single Mesmer condition build used to fight players either is based on clone deaths or MtD. The former is getting deleted, and the latter is getting neutered. That leaves us with…nothing.

So yeah, you can go play interrupt and power shatter and be happy and completely ignore the devs deleting a significant part of our class from the game. You’d just better hope that they don’t do the same for you.

Fay.2357:

While you’re busy mashing all of your buttons (which, by the way, will leave you with zero condition removal, zero mobility, and zero stunbreaks), do you really think your opponent is just sitting there watching you?

No, of course they aren’t. They’ll dodge away, or even just walk away and counter your entire thing.

The “was/is” potent was referring to with or without the MTD nerf. Poor wording on my part there.

My reply was not specifically referencing sPvP. However that combo can easily be pulled off in an extremely small timeframe (it’s not difficult to count dodges) with little telegraphing and it’s AoE. The multitude of Dazes and stunning also make simply “walking away” not as easy since the combo literally takes only as long as it takes to cast mimic once and SoIllusions twice. If you think that won’t accomplish something potent while on a point then you are being willfully ignorant. An opponent, or opponents, leaving a point in sPvP is a good thing.

As to leaving you with no condition removal, mobility, or stun breaks. I left a lot open. You literally only use your shatters and 2 utilities. You’re left with:

Two weapon sets: Torch + Torch trait lets you remove conditions and potentially escape. Scepter gives you a block, MH sword would give you the ability to close the gap, immobilize, and blurred frenzy for defense. Staff uses are obvious.

Potentially 3 left-over Signets (SoEther, SoMidnight, SoHumility). All of which have innate effects that help your survival, trait effects that give you distortion and cleanse conditions, and SoMidnight is even a stunbreak.

So what exactly am I missing again?

Patch just hit – still 2 stacks per shatter. Good, hopefully it stays that way for the time being and they can evaluate. Also confusing combatants change to fury is real (EDIT: now called Master Fencer).

skcamow.3527:

Patch just hit – still 2 stacks per shatter. Good, hopefully it stays that way for the time being and they can evaluate. Also confusing combatants change to fury is real.

Oh, good. So they didn’t do the really stupid thing, but they still did the kind of disappointing thing.

tobascodagama.2961:

skcamow.3527:

Patch just hit – still 2 stacks per shatter. Good, hopefully it stays that way for the time being and they can evaluate. Also confusing combatants change to fury is real.

Oh, good. So they didn’t do the really stupid thing, but they still did the kind of disappointing thing.

At least the fury trait has somewhat of a decent application for PvE builds and other builds that might want to rely less on precision in exchange for more ferocity. But isn’t that what the sword trait is for…?

SIGH

tobascodagama.2961:

skcamow.3527:

Patch just hit – still 2 stacks per shatter. Good, hopefully it stays that way for the time being and they can evaluate. Also confusing combatants change to fury is real.

Oh, good. So they didn’t do the really stupid thing, but they still did the kind of disappointing thing.

Right, they still could do the really stupid thing as they are definitely watching (per yesterday’s stream). But yeah confusion on crit is definitely not a thing.

So you burn all those cooldowns and utilities and such, and what is the result of that? Let’s assume they don’t dodge or take any sort of evasive action.

Well, they’re left with confusion, vuln, and torment. Blind will fall off after a second or so, or any persistent aoe/cleave. 3 conditions. High stacks certainly…but 3 conditions. They pop one removal, maybe 2 aaaand your entire burst is gonezo.

Now you’re left with no shatters and 1 utility slot to fight someone that barely even noticed what you just did.

That sort of all out absurd burst is never a good idea, regardless of whether it’s condie or power. It’s always going to be a 1-trick pony that works perfectly on some noob once, and then fails miserably 20 times until you find another noob to smush with it. Basing your argument about that kind of burst is just foolhardy.

You could certainly make the case that MtD would have been a very strong build…but you have to actually consider the realities of the game.

1. MtD is not currently a very strong build.
2. Many other classes are getting insanely buffed in the realm of condition damage (see: 8k damage burn ticks on engie).
3. Those other classes aren’t getting knee-jerk nerfs based on target golem balancing.

Add all those up and you come to the logical conclusion that strong buffs are necessary to let MtD even have a chance of competing in the new world of condition builds.

Were the buffs strong? Yes. Were they necessary? Yes. Even with those strong buffs, would MtD be as good at condie stacking as engineer/necro/warrior? Probably not, not even with those buffs.

Any nerfs whatsoever are poorly conceived and indicate a compete and total lack of thought and brainpower from our team of wonderboys.

Edit: Good, no change yet. I won’t stop holding my breath until it sticks for a week or so though.

Confusion on crit is bad but torment on crit for Revenant will be fine?

I did some maths and confusion combatants was just bad. On the other hand perma-fury = massive bleeding from sharper images and with the pistol traits and the fast procs of the duelist, pistol may just be our best condition off-hand weapon. Before I saw these changes, that’s actually what I was hoping for…

skcamow.3527:

Patch just hit – still 2 stacks per shatter. Good, hopefully it stays that way for the time being and they can evaluate. Also confusing combatants change to fury is real (EDIT: now called Master Fencer).

THANK GOD! :o

I don’t care that confusing combatants was changed, but praise the six that they left MtD alone!

Curunen.8729:

skcamow.3527:

Patch just hit – still 2 stacks per shatter. Good, hopefully it stays that way for the time being and they can evaluate. Also confusing combatants change to fury is real (EDIT: now called Master Fencer).

THANK GOD! :o

I don’t care that confusing combatants was changed, but praise the six that they left MtD alone!

Blessed is those who pray to Lyssa.

Niminion.1982:

Silverkey.2078:

I did some maths and confusion combatants was just bad. On the other hand perma-fury = massive bleeding from sharper images and with the pistol traits and the fast procs of the duelist, pistol may just be our best condition off-hand weapon. Before I saw these changes, that’s actually what I was hoping for…

It was stated there was some ICD so not perma-fury. Which means this trait is garbage because you still need to get fury from other sources, and since fury doesn’t stack, if you are getting enough fury from other sources this trait might as well not even be here. It’s a practical complete deletion of a trait for duelists in many situations instead of what was one of the better minor traits for all situations.

Master Fencer: Gain fury for 5 seconds when striking a foe below 75% health. This trait has a 5-second internal cooldown.

looks like perma fury as long as you keep hitting.

MailMail.6534:

Curunen.8729:

skcamow.3527:

Patch just hit – still 2 stacks per shatter. Good, hopefully it stays that way for the time being and they can evaluate. Also confusing combatants change to fury is real (EDIT: now called Master Fencer).

THANK GOD! :o

I don’t care that confusing combatants was changed, but praise the six that they left MtD alone!

Blessed is those who pray to Lyssa.

Amen!

confusion on shatter doest work – bug?!

For me it’s bleeding on crits which doesn’t

I’ve readed in other forum that you need change the original unlocked traits to make it work again. Play with them a bit. It should work.