Guild Wars 2

Disclaimer: this post is not about balance or power. I do not feel we are weak nor do we need a buff. I don’t want Mesmers gameplay to be dumbed down or changed. I simply want the class to feel coherent, with all the class mechanic elements can play together nicely.

I don’t want to write a wall of text so I will keep my observations really short:

On one hand, the mechanics as they are push me as a player to choose between clones & shatters, and phantasms. These are pretty much mutually exclusive so it would appear smart to pick one side and specialize. Fine, I don’t want to lose 4 different skills so I will go with clones & shatters and get me all the nice traits to back that up.

But on the other hand, EVERY weapon Memers have has 1 phantasm and 1 clone skill. Wait, what? So I can’t specialize? Why isn’t there a weapon that has only phantasm skills or only clone skills. So ArenaNet, you don’t want me to specialize? You want me to use both phantasms and clones?

Now I am confused. I thought I was playing the class that is supposed to cause confusion, but not to itself…

“But on the other hand, EVERY weapon Memers have has 1 phantasm and 1 clone skill.”

wat

You do not have to choose between clones and phantasms, the fact that every weapon combo or 2H weapon offers both should be a clue that you use both. That is part of the defining class mechanic (i.e. not up to choice, just as it’s not up to choice to play like a Warrior if you’re a Mesmer).

What you have a choice with is which part of your toolkit to emphasise and strengthen. Confusion build, Shatter build, Condition build, Damage build, etc. All these will use both clones and phantasms, but in different ways, and in different ways relative to various types of content.

@Rhyno
thats true.
if you have a two hand weapon u have 1 clone 1 phantasm skill
if u have main / offhand weapon u have clone on mainhand and phantasm on offhand

and I too think you are kinda forced to go with illusions, what is kinda sad, but i dont dislike the playstyle ^^

gurugeorge.9857:

You do not have to choose between clones and phantasms, the fact that every weapon combo or 2H weapon offers both should be a clue that you use both. That is part of the defining class mechanic (i.e. not up to choice, just as it’s not up to choice to play like a Warrior if you’re a Mesmer).

What you have a choice with is which part of your toolkit to emphasise and strengthen. Confusion build, Shatter build, Condition build, Damage build, etc. All these will use both clones and phantasms, but in different ways, and in different ways relative to various types of content.

I agree with you. ArenaNet apparently wants you to use phantasms AND clones while still using shatters of course.

But lets take your example. Lets say I choose to go with a phantasm heavy build where I invest all my traits in phantasm life and damage. How does that synergizes with our shatter skills? It doesn’t. Suddenly my class defining skills destroy everything I invested in (I know there are still cases where a shatter is semi-useful but we are talking class defining skills here… we should use them all the time.)

Why not make shatters targeted skill that only affect illusions on the selected target? It’s not overpowered, and it doesn’t dumb down the class. On the contrary, it makes it a little more complex and raises even higher the skill cap.

I’m not sure that I follow the OP here.

If you like using shatter, how does having an extra illusion summoning skill on each weapon hurt? Especially when some of those illusions will grant significant side bonuses until they are shattered?

The way I look at it, phantasms are just a more pet-like illusion, while clones are more about deception and denial.

Personally I don’t like the way shatter works, but if you’re fine with that part, then surely more skills that summon shatterable resources – illusions of any sort – is a good thing?

Roven Leafsong.8917:

I’m not sure that I follow the OP here.

If you like using shatter, how does having an extra illusion summoning skill on each weapon hurt? Especially when some of those illusions will grant significant side bonuses until they are shattered?

The way I look at it, phantasms are just a more pet-like illusion, while clones are more about deception and denial.

Personally I don’t like the way shatter works, but if you’re fine with that part, then surely more skills that summon shatterable resources – illusions of any sort – is a good thing?

I simply wanted to show that its impossible for a Mesmer to have a build that has zero clone or phantasm skills, meaning its actually intended for Mesmer to always utilize both.

Urban Monkey.1580:

Roven Leafsong.8917:

I’m not sure that I follow the OP here.

If you like using shatter, how does having an extra illusion summoning skill on each weapon hurt? Especially when some of those illusions will grant significant side bonuses until they are shattered?

The way I look at it, phantasms are just a more pet-like illusion, while clones are more about deception and denial.

Personally I don’t like the way shatter works, but if you’re fine with that part, then surely more skills that summon shatterable resources – illusions of any sort – is a good thing?

I simply wanted to show that its impossible for a Mesmer to have a build that has zero clone or phantasm skills, meaning its actually intended for Mesmer to always utilize both.

Exactly. So why the thread? You seem to understand it.

The easy answer to your original post is this:

With only clones, you would reach the limit of 3 long before your shatter cooldown, thus making the ability to pump out excessive clones useless. With only Phantasms, your DPS would be too high without you even needing to be there.

By making your main hand weapon summon clones and your off hand weapon summon Phantasms (or 1 each for 2-handed weapons), you have a more balanced ability to specialize however you like – still can get 3 clones out and still get a phantasm or 2, but not at a rate which would be overwhelming to the user or enemy.

By weapon swapping and useing a utility skill can’t you immideatly have 3 phantasms out?

Jinjah.9254:

Urban Monkey.1580:

Roven Leafsong.8917:

I’m not sure that I follow the OP here.

If you like using shatter, how does having an extra illusion summoning skill on each weapon hurt? Especially when some of those illusions will grant significant side bonuses until they are shattered?

The way I look at it, phantasms are just a more pet-like illusion, while clones are more about deception and denial.

Personally I don’t like the way shatter works, but if you’re fine with that part, then surely more skills that summon shatterable resources – illusions of any sort – is a good thing?

I simply wanted to show that its impossible for a Mesmer to have a build that has zero clone or phantasm skills, meaning its actually intended for Mesmer to always utilize both.

Exactly. So why the thread? You seem to understand it.

Because my main point was the fact that on one side ArenaNet forces you to play with both clones and phantasm but at the same time the skills given to you as a class mechanic only synergize well with clones.

Take Signet of Illusions for example. Why would I have a skill that boost the life of my phantasms when the core class mechanic is to break them.

You dont have to use both.

Mesmer , imho, is a single target specialist. Aka veteran and above killer.

That means longer fights, where you can have 3 phantasms out without ever needing or producing a clone.

For instance, if im fighting an aoe heavy opponent, signet of illusions might save my phantasms long enough to shatter at the target. Dont forget, out illusions run to the target and only then shatter, giving enough time to the opponent to destroy them.

I stringly believe there are a lot more styles of play for a mesmer than it shows or youve noticed.

Were far from being a confused class, but we sure as hell know how to confuse others.

Urban Monkey.1580:

Because my main point was the fact that on one side ArenaNet forces you to play with both clones and phantasm but at the same time the skills given to you as a class mechanic only synergize well with clones.

Take Signet of Illusions for example. Why would I have a skill that boost the life of my phantasms when the core class mechanic is to break them.

I agree with you that shatter is an odd choice of mechanic, and I would say that Shriketalon has written very eloquently on the topic in this thread.

I wouldn’t always lump shatter in with clones though, some clones are lots of fun in their own right.

I simply wanted to show that its impossible for a Mesmer to have a build that has zero clone or phantasm skills, meaning its actually intended for Mesmer to always utilize both.[/quote]

Well yeah mate, thats how this class is intented to work. Maybe its playstyle isnt ment for you? Try more classes out m8, maybe you find 1 that suits you just fine. I like the mesmer class and know what it has in store for me, it is an illusion class its not like a necro where you can choose to get your pets or dont. Mesmer illusions doesnt hurt either when you dont want them. they vanish anyways when a mob is dead + most skills we use to summon a mesmer also have a nice damage from ourselfs.

Madness.5810:

Urban Monkey.1580:

I simply wanted to show that its impossible for a Mesmer to have a build that has zero clone or phantasm skills, meaning its actually intended for Mesmer to always utilize both.

Well yeah mate, thats how this class is intented to work. Maybe its playstyle isnt ment for you? Try more classes out m8, maybe you find 1 that suits you just fine. I like the mesmer class and know what it has in store for me, it is an illusion class its not like a necro where you can choose to get your pets or dont. Mesmer illusions doesnt hurt either when you dont want them. they vanish anyways when a mob is dead + most skills we use to summon a mesmer also have a nice damage from ourselfs.

I think you misunderstood my sentence. I didn’t mean I want to have zero clone or phantasm skills. I love the illusions as its really what Mesmer is all about.

I meant that you are always force to have both illusion types. So there is no weapon with 2 clone skills and no phantasms or the other way around.

So lets say I love clones and shatter skills but I dislike phantasms, I am stuck with at least one phantasm skill that I won’t use. That was my meaning.

By the way, I am fine with that as well, I just would like it better if there was some sort of synergy between clones, phantasms and shatters.

having to choose between clones and phantasms is like choosing between bread or eggs for your french toast.

you can’t have one without the other just because you traited one of them more.

personally i use a power/precision/condition damage build, with a GS and Scepter/torch, with 20 in domination and dueling, and 30 in illusions.

my dueling line focuses on making phantasms crit and thus apply bleeding, while the master trait makes me make clones for easily, with the utility skill that summons 2 clones and a simple dodge, i can create 3 clones that cast GS skill 1, and allows me to maintain 19 stacks of bleeding on my enemy.

the domination line focuses on reducing GS cooldowns and making my clones cripple when they die.

my illusion is focused on boosting my scepter/torch, i took distortion grants reflection, 33% longer confusion, and shatter effects count me as an illusion as well, this allows me to be quite defensive while using the scepter, while still allowing me to apply large amounts of confusion.

as you see, i don’t use phantasms only or clones only, you have 2 weapon sets, use each of them to your advantage, and never use the 2 weapon sets for the same purpose, and do not spec your traits to suit only one of those sets either, build your traits to fit everything you use.

Mesmers shoot pink lasers with their sword and stab people with their pistol.

I switched to a setup in which I have ok-ish Phantasms (they have extra power and grant Regeneration, plus +50% HP), I have ok-ish Shatter (it gives Vigor to nearby allies and I produce Clones fast via dodging if needed) and ok-ish Clones (they cause bleeds on crits and if they die they cause AE Cripple and AE Confusion.

So in other words, I intentionally hybridized as much as possible.

Curiously enough, for PvE and WvW, this spec seems golden. The strength of not being blindsided in any situation seems to far outweight the loss from not having 8 traits to augment a single thing.
Really surprised how well such a hybrid-setup works.

But, parts of your spec are fighting other parts. Other classes can do a hybrid-like spec and all of it will work together.

Carighan.6758:

I switched to a setup in which I have ok-ish Phantasms (they have extra power and grant Regeneration, plus +50% HP), I have ok-ish Shatter (it gives Vigor to nearby allies and I produce Clones fast via dodging if needed) and ok-ish Clones (they cause bleeds on crits and if they die they cause AE Cripple and AE Confusion.

So in other words, I intentionally hybridized as much as possible.

Curiously enough, for PvE and WvW, this spec seems golden. The strength of not being blindsided in any situation seems to far outweight the loss from not having 8 traits to augment a single thing.
Really surprised how well such a hybrid-setup works.

Oddly enough, I ended up with a similar build. I normally like to specialize but with the way the Mesmer was designed, it seems far from the best approach. I think the class mechanics do favor a more “Jack of all trades, master of none” approach.

Oh yeah, it’s not without structural flaws. Although as far as our current loadout goes, it seems to perform much better than specialized approaches do.

Thing is, I don’t really know a good way to “fix” the way our stuff inherently works each other, unless we completely remove the “Shatter stuff”-part of the class.

The only other way I could see this work is if Shatter was much stronger (and I don’t mean +50% Mind Blast damage, I mean +400% or so), the 4 have a shared CD and a very large individiual CD, and the shatter skills became our elite skill(s), in a way.

The way that’d work would be that the Shatters are 2-4m CDs which are extremely powerful, and we actually have all 4 ready at a time. In turn they also have X shared CD, and that CD is added to the skills already on CD by extending them.
Then one could feasibly reach a point where Shatter no longer feels like it’s at odds with the other mechanics simply because it happens very rarely and only when you need the power.

But keep in mind, we’d have extremely powerful shatters that way, and I can’t see that being balanceable, even if we’d just passively have no elite slot in turn (since Shatters are the elites).