Guild Wars 2

I was going to add this to a topic by Chaos Archangel on (Are Condi Mesmer not supposed to be a thing), but I thought this needs a new topic on it own as if more focus on the class as a problem not just condition.

My thought’s on why, the class in itself paying for all the nerf, cries and complaint that is attached to it in PVP.

There are 4 reason why I see the Mesmer class has this problem. There are more but i will only stick to what i believe are the major cooperate.

PU, no condi clean/all zerk builds and clones. Now add Bad / new players to the mix you have your problem.

I can’t even say which is the biggest cooperate but it seems everyone keeps pointing at PU and not looking at the class as a whole.

Good players understand where am coming from but majority of the player base don’t see the bigger picture, but only point a finger at one trait that other class also have access to.

PU = Stealth.

We have stealth like most other classes like thief, ranger etc, but different is we can also summon illusions that does our dirty deed for us. (Yes they might not be strong), but enough to distract bad players, and those bad players can’t tell the different between real or illusions so the run after everything while we wait and plan our next attack.

Also because all these bad players read the same site the same forum and follow the same act (Meta build/zerk/no clean). Plus they may have come from other mmo’s (wow) where some class are just to powerful (Rouges, Paladin, Warriors) the roll that class and expect the same in GW2, or watch some guy on YouTube who is very skilled at his/her class or some guy who is just face rolling bad players, they not think that can also achieve this with little to no training or time spent of the class but find out this is not they case.

All these and more further adds fuel to fire why they think the class is OP.

As you can see, the common factor in the two examples I have used are the bad players. Not PU but simply bad players that don’t understand the game/class mechanic.

I know when I first started the game over 3 years ago and went up against a Mesmer, i could not tell the difference between the real and illusions. (Then there was clone death which made things even worse). But I have since learnt the game, Learnt the class and all other class and what they are all about, learnt their strength and weaknesses and know how to fight and counter them. Yes it was frustrating at first but that is the beauty of playing any game or doing anything. You face the challenge and over come it.

People / Players don’t want to go through the hard effort of learning each class and how to counter, They just want to be given the OP class so they can start wining. And if these doesn’t work they way they have envision it, they cry.

I mean how many times has anyone read, “Am new what is the best class to play, best class to level, OP class comment”?

Mesmer class is surfing because of these people not knowing what to do, not taking time to learn or the just follow blindly hoping to achieve the same skills as the people that made that build.

im playing this kitten build right now dude…. bad players or not they all die, i dont use clones to try fool people i use them to shatter and cause more problems for my enemy, stealth lets me sit there regenerate and watch them melt for a bit before my next burst

i can keep 6 stacks of confusion on them all the time, condi cleanses are stuck behind a large cd way longer then the speed i can stack conditions. i have 1 reflect 1 invulnerability 3 stealth sources cc and a block as well as a condi transfer, even a necro cant kill me because its gear does not work unless they can see me or i am not blocking/invulnerable, even if they get a lucky one off i just shove it right back on them.

it i literally my first time playing this spec and i rarely play mesmer in general i should be a free lootbag, imagine if i actually knew what i was doing

it could just be my mmr but these people are alot harder to beat on other classes

ps i didn’t even need to look up metabattle the build is obvious if you just read the traits while picking them…….

The fact that you’re so adamant that confusion is the cause of Condi Mesmer damage..

The fact that you can somehow keep 6 stacks on a target permenantly…

The fact that you think anet should balance off duels (Condi mes has little team presence)

… Perfectly proves the OPs point. And no, you’re definitely not fighting good players

Condi Mes isn’t even that great in duels for the purposes of sPvP. As an attrition build it lacks the burst to bring down targets quickly (unless they’re really, really stupid), so while a Condi Mes may eventually win most duels it won’t do so in a timely manner. Worse even a stealthless Mesmer isn’t suited for standing on points, so the most likely result of duels is you lose the point and then +1 arrives for one side or another before you can kill your opponent.

And even the “good in duels” thing is questionable. As pointed out a lot of solo players run Zerker builds with no cleansing, which are handily countered by Condi Mesmers for obvious reasons. Against builds such as Shoutbow War, Cele Signet Necro and DS Staff Ele, Condi Mesmers are almost ineffectual.

ozzy.8059:

im playing this kitten build right now dude…. bad players or not they all die, i dont use clones to try fool people i use them to shatter and cause more problems for my enemy, stealth lets me sit there regenerate and watch them melt for a bit before my next burst

i can keep 6 stacks of confusion on them all the time, condi cleanses are stuck behind a large cd way longer then the speed i can stack conditions. i have 1 reflect 1 invulnerability 3 stealth sources cc and a block as well as a condi transfer, even a necro cant kill me because its gear does not work unless they can see me or i am not blocking/invulnerable, even if they get a lucky one off i just shove it right back on them.

it i literally my first time playing this spec and i rarely play mesmer in general i should be a free lootbag, imagine if i actually knew what i was doing

it could just be my mmr but these people are alot harder to beat on other classes

ps i didn’t even need to look up metabattle the build is obvious if you just read the traits while picking them…….

You lost all credibility when you posted the story about how you never played mesmer before, started playing with a condi build and people just started dropping left and right of you, winning “almost all my 1v1s” despite the fact you have 350+ ping and can’t dodge.

You should really try harder when making up stories about certain build’s op’ness, because what you said makes it pretty obvious you’re either lying or have never played a condi mesmer.

Also, you have a post history of qq-ing about mesmer, here’s a gem:
“i can go nuts on clones all day, the mesmer can produce them faster then you can kill them and you are doing exactly what the mesmer wants you to do, stand next to the clones so it can shatter them. here is an example
i can put down 2 wells and the clones are still standing after this.. with more being pumped out at the same time, it takes a full life transfer to take out the clones, (as if the mesmer is going to let that happen) this is on my tanky build with 2k power 3k defence and bloodlust with 45% crit chance.”

I won’t take anything you say about mesmer serious after this.

Condi mesmer is mediocre at best and fades in comparison to every other meta condi build. It’s frustrating to play against, but that doesn’t make it op. You people need to accept that simple fact and take your qq elsewhere.

I don’t know how to explain it but I feel it’s deeper. We as mesmers were given tools that other classes don’t have. Portal great skill defines our role but imo holds us back. Chrono is coming this will do the same. Either balance better which is an issue imo. Or give all classes the same op “stuff” to balance. I think the ideas portal chrono are awesome but they are crosses to carry as well as cool concepts.

I wish there was less condi mesmers in wvw solo roaming scene. Actualy, I don’t even remember running into another class this week. It’s killing the fun, really.
If everyone and their cats are playing condi mesmers, maybe there’s a problem. Maybe.

Fortunatly, they are non factor in group play, but still, I don’t always have a group to play with and I wish I could fight something else than this cheese build.

Nausicca.6038:

I wish there was less condi mesmers in wvw solo roaming scene. Actualy, I don’t even remember running into another class this week. It’s killing the fun, really.
If everyone and their cats are playing condi mesmers, maybe there’s a problem. Maybe.

Fortunatly, they are non factor in group play, but still, I don’t always have a group to play with and I wish I could fight something else than this cheese build.

Or maybe the problem is with solo roaming itself, a “game mode” with very strict criteria as to what builds can succeed, naturally resulting in very limited build diversity.

Solo roaming should factor exactly nothing into balance. PvE players complain about PvP infringing on its balance, well balancing around solo roaming is 100x worse.

So if solo roaming doesn’t effect balancing. Stealth does not cap nodes in our pvp. In wvw stealth traps and others can sweep same as before. Why was pu nerfed?

denis.9487:

So if solo roaming doesn’t effect balancing. Stealth does not cap nodes in our pvp. In wvw stealth traps and others can sweep same as before. Why was pu nerfed?

If you’re asking me (which begs the question of why…), I said “should”. Either way I care very little if PU is 100% or 50% because for me the only thing it affects is how long I can avoid dogs in the SW labyrinth.

Embolism.8106:

Nausicca.6038:

I wish there was less condi mesmers in wvw solo roaming scene. Actualy, I don’t even remember running into another class this week. It’s killing the fun, really.
If everyone and their cats are playing condi mesmers, maybe there’s a problem. Maybe.

Fortunatly, they are non factor in group play, but still, I don’t always have a group to play with and I wish I could fight something else than this cheese build.

Or maybe the problem is with solo roaming itself, a “game mode” with very strict criteria as to what builds can succeed, naturally resulting in very limited build diversity.

Solo roaming should factor exactly nothing into balance. PvE players complain about PvP infringing on its balance, well balancing around solo roaming is 100x worse.

I know solo roaming is not and will never be balanced. I’m not asking for it. I don’t care tbh. I’m roaming because I like open world pvp. But at least, there was class diversity before. Now it’s only condi mesmer everywhere. It’s just boring. " oh another condi mesmer, woot".

Nausicca.6038:

Embolism.8106:

Nausicca.6038:

I wish there was less condi mesmers in wvw solo roaming scene. Actualy, I don’t even remember running into another class this week. It’s killing the fun, really.
If everyone and their cats are playing condi mesmers, maybe there’s a problem. Maybe.

Fortunatly, they are non factor in group play, but still, I don’t always have a group to play with and I wish I could fight something else than this cheese build.

Or maybe the problem is with solo roaming itself, a “game mode” with very strict criteria as to what builds can succeed, naturally resulting in very limited build diversity.

Solo roaming should factor exactly nothing into balance. PvE players complain about PvP infringing on its balance, well balancing around solo roaming is 100x worse.

I know solo roaming is not and will never be balanced. I’m not asking for it. I don’t care tbh. I’m roaming because I like open world pvp. But at least, there was class diversity before. Now it’s only condi mesmer everywhere. It’s just boring. " oh another condi mesmer, woot".

Before what, I wonder. PU? Because PU just got nerfed.

Condi Mesmers have always been popular for WvW roaming. They haven’t received any upgrades to the actual Condi Mesmer part (in fact it’s been nerfed somewhat) for a long time.

denis.9487:

So if solo roaming doesn’t effect balancing. Stealth does not cap nodes in our pvp. In wvw stealth traps and others can sweep same as before. Why was pu nerfed?

The question wasn’t directed towards anyone. Just a question to inspire thought. Sorry if offense was perceived.

denis.9487:

denis.9487:

So if solo roaming doesn’t effect balancing. Stealth does not cap nodes in our pvp. In wvw stealth traps and others can sweep same as before. Why was pu nerfed?

The question wasn’t directed towards anyone. Just a question to inspire thought. Sorry if offense was perceived.

For the …sigh.. not all condi mesmers use PU. they do not go hand in hand for every build.

Some common knowledge. to solo roam you either need to be exceptionally strong at 1 v x (dueling) or capable of disengaging. Most players use stealth for both. So seeing a stealth heavy class (such as thief or mesmer), a 1 v x class (like dd ele) or a highly mobile class (like warrior, ele, thief or mesmer) is the norm. Dodging packs of players while running around solo is a feat within itself. It is hard even with limited stealth. Especially on higher tiered servers.

ozzy.8059:

im playing this kitten build right now dude…. bad players or not they all die, i dont use clones to try fool people i use them to shatter and cause more problems for my enemy, stealth lets me sit there regenerate and watch them melt for a bit before my next burst

i can keep 6 stacks of confusion on them all the time, condi cleanses are stuck behind a large cd way longer then the speed i can stack conditions. i have 1 reflect 1 invulnerability 3 stealth sources cc and a block as well as a condi transfer, even a necro cant kill me because its gear does not work unless they can see me or i am not blocking/invulnerable, even if they get a lucky one off i just shove it right back on them.

it i literally my first time playing this spec and i rarely play mesmer in general i should be a free lootbag, imagine if i actually knew what i was doing

it could just be my mmr but these people are alot harder to beat on other classes

ps i didn’t even need to look up metabattle the build is obvious if you just read the traits while picking them…….

I don’t even bother bringing cleanse when fighting condi mesmer :p

• 1) It’s easy to avoid the condi application

• 2) The low amount of applied damaging conditions makes the burst easily cleansed

• 3) If you dont have a cleanse and you manage to get hit, a simple disengage with inactive play will negate the torment/confusion, which passes quickly due to the short condition durations.

I think every new player hates Thieves/Mesmers/Rangers (at least one, if not all). Until you understand all the little intricacies of this game’s mechanics as a whole, they’re very difficult to deal with. Some people just don’t let go of that resentment, especially if they never bother to actually try playing those professions.

@Ross
“3) If you dont have a cleanse and you manage to get hit, a simple disengage with inactive play will negate the torment/confusion, which passes quickly due to the short condition durations.”

While playing Condi mes, have you ever fought someone in PvP that didn’t fight back?

About a month ago I engaged a Guardian who just captured a node. 2 seconds into the engagement he noticed I was playing condi mes and just stopped fighting back…. Stood still on the node, timed his cleanses/blocks and had leeching on swap, so he’d smack one of my clones after confusion wore off. I couldn’t get him below 70% health. After rotating through my shatters and realizing i wasn’t getting anywhere I stopped also and we talked for a few seconds till one of his team came to +1.

Condi mesmers don’t kill anyone, they just give people the opportunity to kill themselves.

Mikkel.8427:

Condi mesmers don’t kill anyone, they just give people the opportunity to kill themselves.

lol, I’m saving that for posterity. xD

Here’s a funny story to add. In pvp, I’ve killed a PU mesmer with a trap ranger and this was before PU was nerfed. To make it worse, I absolutely suck as a ranger. Not only do I forget to press F2, I often forget I even have a pet.

As for condi mesmer, it’s a joke these days. I use to play a bleed one that only had Mass Invis for stealth but not prismatic understanding. I could easily win 1v1s and I was getting skilled enough to win 1v2s. I even took down bunker d/d eles and turret engis with it (God, that was SO much fun to bounce Winds of Chaos off their turrets and kill them even faster!). Then the balance patch that changed traitlines hit and that build became so bad that I couldn’t beat anyone with it. In fact, I started playing a trap ranger because I still can’t build it back to what it use to be.

I imagine there are only a handful that want a condi mesmer to work more than I but the fact of the matter is, it sucks.

ozzy.8059:

im playing this kitten build right now dude…. bad players or not they all die, i dont use clones to try fool people i use them to shatter and cause more problems for my enemy, stealth lets me sit there regenerate and watch them melt for a bit before my next burst

i can keep 6 stacks of confusion on them all the time, condi cleanses are stuck behind a large cd way longer then the speed i can stack conditions. i have 1 reflect 1 invulnerability 3 stealth sources cc and a block as well as a condi transfer, even a necro cant kill me because its gear does not work unless they can see me or i am not blocking/invulnerable, even if they get a lucky one off i just shove it right back on them.

it i literally my first time playing this spec and i rarely play mesmer in general i should be a free lootbag, imagine if i actually knew what i was doing

it could just be my mmr but these people are alot harder to beat on other classes

ps i didn’t even need to look up metabattle the build is obvious if you just read the traits while picking them…….

Maybe you should match up with really experience Mesmer players or other class players before you make a bold statement like that.

If you are playing pvp not spvp, you will still meet a lot of inexperienced players. This can also be said for wvw.

You also say everyone falls around, don’t you think that is to do with bad play from their side, or no condi clean, or are you telling us you are just that super good?

I can tell you I have faced many condi Mesmer’s that uses PU and I still out played them. And I have faced condi PU mesmer and many other class in my PU build and still got stumped.

So for you to say everyone falls is not correct, unless you me mean when in a group fight, you come in and do your thing. This is very different because their attention is not on you but on everything.

You also said you don’t use the clones to fool anyone, but the thing is you actually do when you think about it.

Your plan is to shatter but you cannot shatter without setting up your clones. Setting up your clones reduce the focus fire on you. Having you clones out and then going stealth may force the following situation,

1, a good player will stop fighting your clones and start looking for the real one at the same time avoiding the damage from your clones or just taking it since it not that strong
2, some will use their aoe to finish them of fast and then wait for when you revel yourself from stealth.
3, bad players will run after each clones thinking it the real one.

so in a nut shell you are trying to fool the other players to thinking you are your clones so you can spring your trap.

Good or bad as they maybe, you are are still trying to fool them. That is the essence of being a Mesmer. confuse your opponent.

Again bad players, not good but bad players will be the once attacking your clones.

Ozzy and others are not even playing condi shatter how it should be.
Condition shatter is NOT about using PU and keeping 6 (lol thats shockingly low dmg) confusion or w/e and trying to sustain dmg like condi engis. Condition shatter is about spike dmg.
The current condition shatter (im assuming dueling, illusions, inspiration) is actually viable not because you can keep 6 confusion, but because you can spike 10+ torment and confusion, on top of bleeds and burns, ASWELL as have amazing condi removal yourself (condi removal on each shatter, 2 on each heal, null field and 1 per torch skill used)
Everyone knows good players will condi clear as and when, which is why good mesmers save their spikes for when they have no dodges/ used cds. eg ( distortion when using scepter 3, daze/stunning when you have applied max stacks. Remember your blinds also apply confusion. Chaos is right, its the torment that is the daddy.
I feel this build really shines because of Temporal Enchanter. Chaos storm + null field + Resistance is so much on point pressure you can pretty much push any bunker off point.
Condi shatter excels in 1v1s and 2v2s and less as the match ups increase. But if you learn to spike when enemies are clustered you can cause havok for thieves, engis, mesmers.

I tanked my mmr to 8-10+ mins queues and facing/teaming up with the likes of Orng in ranked just by condi shatter and using it properly ( in a non passive PU condi phantasm way)
The build is not op, it DOES take some skill, learning to play and yes good players who know how to cleanse will cause you problems. I feel it excels more because it counter comps/builds the enemy rather than being op you can faceroll on your keyboard.

@Ross Biddle……you must have been fighting THE worse condi mesmer ever if thats all you had to do with 0 condi removal.
People need to learn to play it as it should be, condi shatter, not some passive phantasm condi pu crap where spamming AA and phantasms does not give you a free win.

I think that main problem, that every phantasm\clone skill in most cases don’t do anything except flush of butterflies.
Trash mob? Flush at low hp
Elite mob? Flush at ANY cleave