Guild Wars 2

EasymodeX.4062:

Because 2 phantasm + 2 shatter > 2 phantasm + 0 shatter.

M4th is h4rd.

Two Phantasms ARE better than two shattered phantasms, because they’ll attack again in 6-8 seconds and deal two or three times the damage of the shatter.

Strill.2591:

EasymodeX.4062:

Because 2 phantasm + 2 shatter > 2 phantasm + 0 shatter.

M4th is h4rd.

Two Phantasms ARE better than two shattered phantasms, because they’ll attack again in 6-8 seconds and deal two or three times the damage of the shatter.

You can reconjure phantasms which of whom attack immediately upon spawn.

Take duelist for example.

Duelist shoots→shatter→reconjure as duelist is shattering.

So instead of waiting 6-8 seconds between attacks, you shatttered for damage and had to wait only 2 seconds between duelist attacks only due to the cast time.

Two Phantasms ARE better than two shattered phantasms, because they’ll attack again in 6-8 seconds and deal two or three times the damage of the shatter.

But I summoned 2 more immediately, so I get 2 phantasms + 2 shatters whereas you afk’d and just have 2 phantasms.

Ergo I do more damage.

Also, a single phantasm does not do 2-3x a traited Mind Wrack. Just no.

EasymodeX.4062:

Two Phantasms ARE better than two shattered phantasms, because they’ll attack again in 6-8 seconds and deal two or three times the damage of the shatter.

But I summoned 2 more immediately, so I get 2 phantasms + 2 shatters whereas you afk’d and just have 2 phantasms.

Ergo I do more damage.

Why don’t you try winding it back a little bit there. You can’t just summon four phantasms in a row.

To start, we both summon two phantasms. Then you shatter yours while I leave mine out. By the time our phantasm cooldowns are up again, my phantasms have attacked again, far outdamaging your shatter, and I can summon a third phantasm while you still only have two out. Alternatively, if my phantasms have been blocking damage from you and I think they’ll die, I can shatter them and do the same thing you did, but get more damage out because I left my phantasms out to attack twice while you shattered yours immediately.

Also, a single phantasm does not do 2-3x a traited Mind Wrack. Just no.

I never said that. I said two phantasms deal that much because they can both attack twice.

To start, we both summon two phantasms. Then you shatter yours while I leave mine out. By the time our phantasm cooldowns are up again, my phantasms have attacked again, far outdamaging your shatter,

Or I could wait until the phantasm cooldown is just about up to Shatter so I can, you know, re-summon immediately. Like I said.

OMG MIND BLOWN.

EasymodeX.4062:

To start, we both summon two phantasms. Then you shatter yours while I leave mine out. By the time our phantasm cooldowns are up again, my phantasms have attacked again, far outdamaging your shatter,

Or I could wait until the phantasm cooldown is just about up to Shatter so I can, you know, Shatter immediately. Like I said.

OMG MIND BLOWN.

“Immediately” and “wait” are antonyms. I don’t know what you’re trying to say.

Actually you would shift damage AWAY from shatter’s and simply buff the shatter traits.

Not following here. Shift the base damage of Wrack and Cry into other abilities before we consider traits? Won’t this irritate people who are already having a hard time with our kit in PvP? I mean I’m all for making our 1 abilities not so laughably bad on most weapons but I don’t think our Phantasm build needs to hit other players harder.

If this is a PvE discussion about PvE mechanics then this is a moot point and what you’re saying makes sense. But if I take PvP into account we’ll just kill people faster.

EasymodeX is saying that you hold onto those phantasms while you eye their cooldown timers. As the phantasms cooldowns come back up you watch the ones currently out and wait for them to finish their next attack.

The second you see them use that their attack press your shatter key and start summoning a replacement phantasm.

I do not know if this is actually a DPS gain though and I’d need someone to go over the numbers for us.

Well you not only double the phantasms’ actual attack, but add a bonus shatter (+shatter procs) on top.

The comparison is pretty clear.

It feels that way but I’m unsure about all the trait interactions etc. Plus I’m sick and somewhat delirious with fever so I just need others to confirm my sanity. At least until my health improves.

Shatter works great for condition mesmers. Consider the stack of 5 confusion from the scepter plus cry of frustration on a single target and they suddenly have 12 stack of confusion and die in about 4 seconds. It work just fine as it was intended to. Just because you don’t use it that way doesn’t mean others don’t.

Itolis.8590:

Shatter works great for condition mesmers. Consider the stack of 5 confusion from the scepter plus cry of frustration on a single target and they suddenly have 12 stack of confusion and die in about 4 seconds. It work just fine as it was intended to. Just because you don’t use it that way doesn’t mean others don’t.

This post feels a lot like it’s out of left field. Whose the you you’re referring to in that last sentence?

Also I’d just like to add a tidbit about illusion and how much I hate it for solo PvE. Mob attack speed is slow most of the time. Really really slow. You usually see about 1 tick that stack you worked so hard to put up before it’s gone. Boss attack speed is generally incredibly slow as well making its use in dungeons just as limited. At least that’s how it feels.

Scepter on the whole felt like a very weak weapon to me when I used it.

EasymodeX.4062:

Well you not only double the phantasms’ actual attack, but add a bonus shatter (+shatter procs) on top.

The comparison is pretty clear.

Also you’d need that second phantasm to be able to beat out the warlocks damage. The zerker from the GS comes no where near his DPS. Warden would do nicely but its getting him to live longer than 3seconds that’s the issue.

It makes for a more active playstyle sure but I’m not sure you can beat out 3 warlocks spamming their ability.

So we need to be sure that the phantasm for the other weapon set is able to get near the warlocks damage output. Since you won’t replace 2 warlocks before the phantasm build rockets past you in output you need to use your other weapon set. So your option needs to be Sword/Focus + Staff for this shatter build to attempt to be viable. Or am I wrong here? Will Pistol come close enough?

So the rotation would have to be something along the lines of spawn Warden > swap > 3 > Cstorm > wait for warden warlock CD > shatter alternatively you could Warden > 3 > 3 follow up > 2 > swap > Cstorm > 2 > 3 > Wait for lock CD > Shatter and hope the warden is still alive after all that time? This sounds unreasonable

I want the idea to work because the whole spawn 3 locks is getting old but it’s trying to find a reliable phantasm that beats out 2 warlocks that’s the issue. It seems like only the warden will work and he dies so easily.

Abarcine.7189:

Also you’d need that second phantasm to be able to beat out the warlocks damage. The zerker from the GS comes no where near his DPS. Warden would do nicely but its getting him to live longer than 3seconds that’s the issue.

1. iSwordsman unconditionally does 50% more DPS than iWarlock.
2. iD does more DPS than iW in a condition [damage] build with SI and crit% (note: in a pure power build, iD does 1400 damage per 6s compared to iW’s 1500 damage per 6s with 3-4 conditions on the target; iD gains significant advantages with SI and crit%).
3. iB is competitive with iW in a non-extreme-power build with SI since it hits 3 times (iB in a similar pure power build would do about 1350 damage).
4. iB outclasses most phantasms in any AOE situation.
5. iB has the most utility with its damage due to cripple.
6. iWarden trashes everything else on the table assuming it stays alive and the target stays in range.
7. iWarden completely dominates any comparison by a mile if you have Warden’s Feedback on a ranged target.
8. iWarlock has the least interesting combo finisher of any phantasm (1 Projectile per 6s; iD has Projectile x8 x20% per 6s, iS has Leap per 4s, iB has Whirl x3 per 6s, and iWarden has Whirl x? per 8s? I think).

So, there are a lot of variations and conditions — your “iWarlock” constraint seems very random.

It makes for a more active playstyle sure but I’m not sure you can beat out 3 warlocks spamming their ability.

Pretty sure you can beat out 3 phantasms minus clone generating abilities using 2 phantasms + shatters + cone generating abilities.

Although, none of this is really relevant since 3 afk phantasms is not viable in any relevant combat situation.

Oh good, someone that knows what’s up, I was worried I’d have to drop some knowledge bombs in this thread but Easymode has it taken care of.

1 : How far does he leap back or is he as likely to get trashed by AOE as the iB? Is that higher DPS vs a target with 5-7 conditions going.

2: Several issues I have with condition builds are their inability to be effective in events with destroyable objects that are also present in dungeons as well as a certain boss that’s immune to them. iW is useless in the above as well but you’ve got more weapon options with a power build I feel. Against most things that matter you’re going to have an average of 5-7 up

3: The bleed does about 1350 damage or iB after bleeds does about 1350 damage? Is that total supposed to be near iW’s output on single target with 5-7 conditions up? I feel like a lot of these comparisons are in made from a condition mesmer’s PoV where the warlock isn’t such an attractive option.

4: Yup

5: Agreed but we’re not really talking about how much utility each phantasm brings. I this situation I’m after damage not snares.

6: Big Ifs there

7: Again the squish or target moved issue

8: Sure he’s boring but he’s also reliable and effective.

Maybe I’m missing something but what other clone generator than Mirror Blade is contributes to damage? Is using a greatsword required ?

Looking at this entire thread, we’ve gotten way off track. So just let me say
1: Getting 3 phantasms out and keeping them out is virtually impossible.
2 : Shatters builds are infinitely more fun
3 : You’ll need to change weapons depending on the mechanics of the dungeon anyway so ideal situations are useless to describe
4 : Let’s talk about how to make shatters more useful for ALL specs.

So far I really like the Mind Wrack and Cry are now instant ranged abilities.

Out of left field – what about reducing shatters down from four skills to two, with the other two effects becoming traitable? The traits themselves would need to be more powerful than they currently are, but it would make shattering builds more viable and easier to use.

F1 – Mind Wrack
F2 – Diversion

Traits:
- Shattering illusions applies Confusion (3/5/7 stacks for 5s)
- Shattering illusions gives you Distortion (2/3/4s)

Because 2 phantasm + 2 shatter > 2 phantasm + 0 shatter.
M4th is h4rd.

Actually what your comparing is 3phantasm+0 shatter > 2phantasm+2shatter. (This is really 1 shatter with 3 clones)

Then you factor in that you didn’t have to weapon swap merely to resummon and you now have a spare phantasm cooldown in case one of yours gets destroyed. Also you didn’t waste that bit of extra time resummoning which means it’s actually 3phantasm+1attack+0shatter >2 phantasm +1shatter.

Apparently for you math IS hard.

1: Getting 3 phantasms out and keeping them out is virtually impossible.
2 : Shatters builds are infinitely more fun
3 : You’ll need to change weapons depending on the mechanics of the dungeon anyway so ideal situations are useless to describe

1: It’s really not.
2: Subjective
3: Even if you do you will still have at least 1 choice of a decent ranged phantasm.

Malakree.5912:

1: It’s really not.

Huh?
The whole point of all the whine-threads about 3Phantasm-builds is that “Waaaa, my third phantasm gets replaced by a clone”, “Noes, my Phantasms die before I have all three up” and “kitten, Fury runs out before I even have the second phantasm out”.

In other words, yes, it is hard. The point of all the whine threads is that the game doesn’t support 3-Phantasm play outside of very ideal situations (no AE, 15s+ prep-time or utility-use for the “inferior” Phantasms), Scepter isn’t possible, Underwater is difficult to pull off.

Exactly my counter-argument to the 3-Phantasm setups in the first place. As high-damage as it may be I prefer being useful over doing max-DPS most of the time (and that means being a mix of a heckler, debuffer and defender as a Mesmer, with weight according to spec/setup), and the game denies you the 3-Phantasm setup left right and centre, anyhow.

It’s almost… you know… as if the devs didn’t intend Phantasms to be stacked up to 3 Duelists / Wardens / Zerkers / Swordsmen. Expect nerf to limit Phantasms to one of each type. Just a hunch, but I am fairly certain this is gameplay they didn’t intend.

Huh?
The whole point of all the whine-threads about 3Phantasm-builds is that “Waaaa, my third phantasm gets replaced by a clone”, “Noes, my Phantasms die before I have all three up” and “kitten, Fury runs out before I even have the second phantasm out”.

I have no problems keeping 3 phantasms up in PvE. In PvP I would never WANT 3 unreplaceable phantasms up since it would dump my survivability into the toilet. Maybe I just realize that you can’t expect to have 3 completely unbuffed phantasms standing around and use signet of illusions+the 20% hp trait so that they DON’T die instantly.

Most of the QQ I see regarding the phantasm build is actually people whining that we SHOULDN’T be keeping 3 phantasms up rather than the fact we can’t.

Underwater is difficult to pull off

It’s entirely possible underwater, the big question I have hear is why you want to since your mirror image trident clones are the greatest things we heave, they are in fact the ONLY clones worth having.

It’s almost… you know… as if the devs didn’t intend Phantasms to be stacked up to 3 Duelists / Wardens / Zerkers / Swordsmen. Expect nerf to limit Phantasms to one of each type. Just a hunch, but I am fairly certain this is gameplay they didn’t intend.

No its actually pretty clear they DID expect us to, you can tell from the following long list I posted in the greatsword thread to someone who claimed exactly the same thing.

Phantasmal Haste – Phantasms recharge 20% faster.
A trait which is specifically based around the idea that you will get more than one volley out of your phantasm, a core part of the PvE phantasm build just fyi. 20 points into illusion. Then for indirect hints they want them out for a while.
Phantasmal Fury – Your phantasms have fury.
This originally had a duration of 2 hours, that’s right 2 hours. It now has a duration of 10seconds and is instantly refreshed every 10seconds as a counter measure to someone stealing a TWO HOUR FURY BUFF off your phantasm.
Persisting Images – Phantasms have 20% more health.
Signet of Illusions – Passive: Grants more health to your illusions ( Illusion Health Bonus: 50%)
Both of these massively increase the longevity of your phantasms, both heavily hinting that they want you to keep your phantasms (cos a 50% hp bonus on a clone is useless) out for much longer.
Basically there are several key things which a phantasm build is based around that specifically increase the effectiveness of phantasms with the aim being to keep as many of them out for as long as possible.

Essentially anyone who bothers to look at a proper phantasm build can see it’s not only intended that we keep phantasms out and stack them but it’s ironically the best supported in the trait tree. The amount of support for a phantasm build is about 3 times that of a shatter build. I would go so far as to say that a basic look at our trait trees shows that it was never intended that we should shatter our phantasms.

EDIT:

Most of the QQ I see regarding the phantasm build is actually people whining that we SHOULDN’T be keeping 3 phantasms up rather than the fact we can’t.

Scratch that, most of the whine I see regarding the phantasm build is YOU complaining we shouldn’t.

1 : How far does he leap back or is he as likely to get trashed by AOE as the iB? Is that higher DPS vs a target with 5-7 conditions going.

iS leaps back a decent amount. Maybe 500 units? Out of range of small AOEs, but in range of large AOEs. Note that iB will be out of range of AOEs depending on where it starts the spin. If it starts close to the target it will go through them a pretty good distance away.

2: Several issues I have with condition builds are their inability to be effective in events with destroyable objects that are also present in dungeons as well as a certain boss that’s immune to them. iW is useless in the above as well but you’ve got more weapon options with a power build I feel. Against most things that matter you’re going to have an average of 5-7 up

Well, two things:

- Phantasms are power build functions for the most part. SI is what makes Phantasms relevant with a condition damage build.
- iWarlock is no exception — it deals pure power damage. The scaling is based on # of conditions, not their strength. It is viable to run a build with Staff/iWarlock in a pure power build, but you are then using the Staff conditions for the utility, CC, and defensive capabilities as an off-weapon. You are not spamming Staff1 as a damage vector.

3: The bleed does about 1350 damage or iB after bleeds does about 1350 damage? Is that total supposed to be near iW’s output on single target with 5-7 conditions up? I feel like a lot of these comparisons are in made from a condition mesmer’s PoV where the warlock isn’t such an attractive option.

iB does 1350 direct damage non crit against a heavy armor golem using a heavy power build. The bleed, in a moderate condition damage and moderate crit rate build with SI, will do roughly 600 damage. Note that iB would do significantly more than 1350 damage with crits and against targets that aren’t heavy armor.

6: Big Ifs there

Perhaps. I find that Into the Void and Sword3 tends to be able to shift things to my favor. Also, enemy siege units do not move in WvW.

7: Again the squish or target moved issue

No: reflecting projectiles against a range target removes half their offensive capability … and reflects it. Also, target moved is irrelevant. If they move, you move to keep the iW between you and the target.

8: Sure he’s boring but he’s also reliable and effective.

Effective is too broad a term to apply to the situation.

Maybe I’m missing something but what other clone generator than Mirror Blade is contributes to damage? Is using a greatsword required ?

All clone generators generate potential damage from shatters and traits. That aside, Mirror Blade is the big one since it does a lot of damage and has significant buffs/debuffs, particularly with Elasticity.

Scepter2 does very very good damage if the block takes effect, as does Sword4.

Out of left field – what about reducing shatters down from four skills to two, with the other two effects becoming traitable? The traits themselves would need to be more powerful than they currently are, but it would make shattering builds more viable and easier to use.
F1 – Mind Wrack
F2 – Diversion
Traits:
- Shattering illusions applies Confusion (3/5/7 stacks for 5s)
- Shattering illusions gives you Distortion (2/3/4s)

I rather like having more Shatter buttons, because each one procs more Shatter traits, but w/e. As long as the Mesmer is not weaker after any changes, shrug.

Actually what your comparing is 3phantasm+0 shatter > 2phantasm+2shatter. (This is really 1 shatter with 3 clones)

Actually what I’m comparing is 3 phantasm + 0 shatter < 2 phantasm + clone + MB + shatter x3-4.

Also you didn’t waste that bit of extra time resummoning which means it’s actually 3phantasm+1attack+0shatter >2 phantasm +1shatter.

The time is not weasted if the phantasms are not attacking anyways.

Btw, I don’t suck at timing to I get a free half attack cycle for resummoning the phantasms.

Therefore I don’t get 2 phantasms, I get 3.

3 phantasms + 0 shatter < 3 phantasms + 2 clones + MB + shatter x3-4.

Holy kitten my kitten just shot through the roof. I am so bad at this game but you make me look so good.

Essentially anyone who bothers to look at a proper phantasm build can see it’s not only intended that we keep phantasms out and stack them but it’s ironically the best supported in the trait tree.

Really? There are more shatter traits than phantasm-stay-alive traits.

Now that I’m feeling better I’m not sure what exactly I was trying to argue or why I thought having a discussion about a boss that moved frequently and had no/little Aoe was worth having at all.

Couple of issues i’m having.

1 : I feel like I’m expected to keep up with 3 different MHs and 2 OHs at all times. Staff GS and Sword and pistol focus offhands. I’d like our weapons to be a bit more differentiated, I feel like there is too much overlap.

2 : Shatter builds and phantasm builds kitten hate each other to the point that Malakree and Easymode are having an inflamed discussion about what does more damage and what’s more viable in reality. Potential damage is nice but if your illusions go poof constantly in a dungeon potential doesn’t really convert into observed output.

Why is our class mechanic so unfriendly to a popular build right now!?

Traits that exist seem to encourage the play of fielding as many phantasms as for as long as possible. This flies in the face of what shatter wants to treat our clones and phantasms as; disposable minion bombs.

3: We NEED a way to make shatters more reliable. Minion bombs is not always a viable delivery system. Especially if said bomb doesn’t explode on death. I feel almost like it’s intentionally underpowered because it does pretty decent spike in PvP. Are they just afraid of what would happen if we could guarantee that spike virtually all the time? If so, this solution flat out sucks for the PvE mesmers. I want something that’s dependable and can see a use no matter what I’m doing. You could say distortion is this shatter, but I’m talking more about our damage delivery system.

4: Mantras feel like they need a lot of improvement. We have so many traits that seem to encourage taking a Mantra from damage boosts to group heals. However Null Field and Feedback always seem to warrant a utility slot in a dungeon, and MoR takes too long to surpass other heals when you need it to save you. The fact that we have so many traits for mantras and they still feel weak should say something.

Why is our class mechanic so unfriendly to a popular build right now!?

The real question is why a particular build is popular if it is generally (but not technically) unfriendly to the class mechanic?

Answer: The build is easy to execute, easy to grasp for casual players, and offers generally effective gameplay. The class mechanic requires timing and resource management; the average player gravitates to the phantasm build and away from using shatters.

Later on they get good and realize that both are effective, but /shrug.

I mean, the long and short of the tangent earlier in this thread is that using shatters at the correct time is almost a pure DPS add. Poor timing will cause players to lose phantasm uptime and generally be bad, but ohwell?

Traits that exist seem to encourage the play of fielding as many phantasms as for as long as possible. This flies in the face of what shatter wants to treat out clones and phantasms as; disposable minion bombs.

This is incorrect: there are only 2 traits that directly support sustained phantasms. These are the 20% phantasm health and recharge cooldown on phantasm attacks. The other phantasm traits are more or less similarly effective for sustained phantasms or normal phantasm use.

Even if you count all traits that directly affect phantasms, I’m pretty sure they do not outnumber the traits that directly affect shatters. Off the top of my head:

- Illusion damage
- Phantasm damage
- Retaliation Phantasm
- Fury Phantasm
- Regen Phantasm
- Phantasm hp
- Sharper Images is close enough to count mostly because of iD

There are an additional ~5 traits that affect all illusions (movespeed, damage, damage reduction per illusion count, proc on illusion death). These do not synergize with phantasms in particular.

For Shatters:

- Mind Wrack 20% damage
- Mind Wrack 10% crit
- Retal on F2
- Confusion on shatter
- Vuln on Shatter
- Vigor on Shatter
- Heal on Shatter
- Illusory Persona
- AOE Diversion
- Reflect on Distortion (eh probably wouldn’t count this trait, lulz)
- I consider vuln on daze as “close enough to count”
- Might on Shatter
- Boon strip on Shatter
- Recharge Shatters at 50% hp
- Condition removal on Shatter

The above lists illustrate that most players simply ignore Shatters because they are weaned on phantasm whoring.

3: We NEED a way to make shatters more reliable. Minion bombs is not always a viable delivery system.

Illusory Persona. QED.

Also, Illusions are pretty reliable for delivering Shatters from what I’ve seen. The only thing that gets tricky is Diversion timing.

Abarcine.7189:

2: Several issues I have with condition builds are their inability to be effective in events with destroyable objects that are also present in dungeons as well as a certain boss that’s immune to them. iW is useless in the above as well but you’ve got more weapon options with a power build I feel. Against most things that matter you’re going to have an average of 5-7 up

I currently run a condition build Mesmer. Staff with Sword+Focus. When facing the destroyable objects, immune to conditions, then the Sword+Focus comes to for.
Spawn a few clones, Shatter, spawn I.Warden and use Blurred Frenzy and watch the destroyable object’s hp disappear. I.Warden is especially useful if the destroyable object is a Turret, as it will block the shots (Or reflect them if you trait that way for even more dmg).
I.Warden is great for Condition builds, as you also go Duelist for Crit-Bleeds for Illusions and I.Warden can rack those up on multiple targets at once if you can keep him alive (Chaos Storm helps alot!). If a boss moves away from it, then it makes for a great spot to stand to prevent Ranged Attacks from hitting you and the I.Warlocks you’ll hopefully spawn in/behind the I.Warden.
(Squish = Counter with Chaos Storm for a bit as Aegis Blocks)
(Enemy Moves away = Protection from Ranged Attack Location, for yourself, Staff Clone, & I.Warlock. leaving Feedback for emergency or big calls)

Having gone 30 in Illusions and grabbing Illusionary Persona, I’ve found my usage of Shatters to have changed a bit.

F4(Distortion) is still my panic button, but now can have anywhere from 1(guaranteed) to 4 seconds of effect, dependent on how many clones are available. Its always useful, and has slowly become ingrained to hit when I panic. (And tempted to see if I can rebind to a more easily hit/located key blindly. Especially as I will always have that 1 second Distortion, even with 0 clones out.
F3(Diversion) is still the strange one. Its great for getting through CC Immunity stacks as always, just being able to deplete a 4x CC Immunity stack in one go now. But its also useful for blocking the melee charge swings when out of energy and Blurred Frenzy is on CD (or not currently the main weapon). Even with no clones, it means I can Daze(1s) a target next to me I see rearing back something painful.
F2(CoF) for 8 stacks of Confusion on the target? Great if its a target that Confusion is worthwhile against. Definitely not going to say no to it, if it procs at least once when there is an 8 stack on a target.
F1(MW) for AoE damage, for Events especially. Leap, Swap, Dodge, Decoy, Shatter. 4x AoE damage in one go, and no Phantasm is stuck on CD. Dodge + Leap for CoF(6x Stack Confusion) as a possibility if CD allows (or swap to staff for Staff clone to make it 8x and start laying down Chaos Storm+I.Warlock). Then summon I.Warden, swap to Staff, Staff Clone, I.Warlock, and Chaos Storm, if anything is still left alive at the time.

That said, PvP is nice with Sword Clones. Either the enemy faces Vulnerability, Boon Removal, and Bleed from the easily dispatched source, or they get Confusion and Cripple for each one they kill. Thats not counting that the Mind Wrack and Cry of Confusion activates much faster as the clones are already there. Mixing Staff Clones with Sword Clones is best, for delaying out Daze durations.

I’ll say this, I’ve had much better luck getting the Clones/Phantasms to actually shatter against a target now then I had during the BWEs.

There are an additional ~5 traits that affect all illusions (movespeed, damage, damage reduction per illusion count, proc on illusion death). These do not synergize with phantasms in particular.

If you’re looking to run a phantasm build these synergize pretty well. Just becuse they also effect clones doesn’t mean a phantasm build won’t see the movespeed, damage reduction, and damage increase, and want take this as “keep their 3 phantasms for these useful bonuses!”

Shatters work well on a large majority of bosses however there are quite a few that they don’t work on and on those few Illusionary Persona won’t help. Let’s look at the dredge dungeon for instance. The golem boss is particularly clone unfriendly. You’ll often be using 1-2 clone shatters just because they’ll melt away so rapidly. Melee range offers very little time to react to their more dangerous abilities so Illusionary Persona becomes dangerous to use. On the one it is usable on you’re better off standing at range and using the GS to spawn clones and the iB so the lightning won’t jump from you and immediately smash anything spawned by weapons other then a Scepter/Focus combo. Being locked into a particular weapon set for a fight to make your class mechanic function makes it feel more like a crutch. And if you have any melee party member, just forget about having any clones reliably up ever.

The final boss of the dungeon cannot be shattered at all there isn’t anywhere for melee Phantasms to stand. iWar and iB and iS are automatically less useful here. And shattering or Illusionary Persona isn’t possible at all. Thankfully we’re pretty good at spiking down the adds but other classes will have an easier time at that as well. It’s not uncommon to send your clones after an add only to watch them get obliterated by a laser from the boss, again Illusionary Persona won’t help here.

I think I’d like a trait for the final tier of Illusion. We can either grab persona for added spike, or choose to give them a ranged delivery here.
Will this be overpowered?

EasymodeX.4062:

Answer: The build is easy to execute, easy to grasp for casual players, and offers generally effective gameplay. The class mechanic requires timing and resource management; the average player gravitates to the phantasm build and away from using shatters.

Later on they get good and realize that both are effective, but /shrug.

I’m level 80 and halfway to my Legendary weapon. When am I gonna realize that both are effective?

Abarcine, the specific details you give seem to be about Sorrow’s Embrace Story mode. I could be wrong though, but it seems so familiar to that.

For the final boss of that dungeon, you are meant to beat down the adds then toss the boulders they leave behind at the Terminator-wannabe. I.Persona was useful, in spiking down my add, so I could toss the boulder then either target a different add or waiting till the next lava dump with ranged attacks.
(Still laugh at remembering the thumbs up)

I will admit, its annoying getting stuck with the Scepter as it ends up being the only feasible MH-Weapon in quite a few situations for a lack of options. Flowers from TA? Scepter (G.Sword only works well at max range in comparison but then respawns get you, Staff is too slow, Sword will get you killed.). The fact I find the scepter to be a horrid weapon, and forced to use it because its the only MH-Ranged auto-attack is annoying.

Anyways, on Shatters and Bosses? I do find that I tend not to use them unless for emergencies (Distortion), or for breaking through CC Immunity (3-4x Clones to remove that many CC Immunities is also great. Confusion on most bosses is lackluster, due to low attack rate. MW is about as pointless for me, tbh. They only get used if my Phantasms go down, and before I resummon them I’ll put out a few clones to shatter specifically.

MLieBennett.9031:

Abarcine, the specific details you give seem to be about Sorrow’s Embrace Story mode. I could be wrong though, but it seems so familiar to that.

For the final boss of that dungeon, you are meant to beat down the adds then toss the boulders they leave behind at the Terminator-wannabe. I.Persona was useful, in spiking down my add, so I could toss the boulder then either target a different add or waiting till the next lava dump with ranged attacks.
(Still laugh at remembering the thumbs up)

I will admit, its annoying getting stuck with the Scepter as it ends up being the only feasible MH-Weapon in quite a few situations for a lack of options. Flowers from TA? Scepter (G.Sword only works well at max range in comparison but then respawns get you, Staff is too slow, Sword will get you killed.). The fact I find the scepter to be a horrid weapon, and forced to use it because its the only MH-Ranged auto-attack is annoying.

Anyways, on Shatters and Bosses? I do find that I tend not to use them unless for emergencies (Distortion), or for breaking through CC Immunity (3-4x Clones to remove that many CC Immunities is also great. Confusion on most bosses is lackluster, due to low attack rate. MW is about as pointless for me, tbh. They only get used if my Phantasms go down, and before I resummon them I’ll put out a few clones to shatter specifically.

I’m aware about the boulders being intended to use on the boss . However all other classes have someway to use their defining mechanic to contribute in many situations. Illusionary Persona was useful, just not so useful that it felt like it warranted 30 points in a trait line. And having no safe zone for phantasms at ALL on that fight seemed silly. My clones need to be disposable, but useful in doing so, I should always be able to use my class mechanic when I have the resource for it and feel good about doing so. Lava dump coming? Too bad nothing to shatter. Adds down and laser coming? Too bad. The best solution I found was to spawn things on the catwalks after a laser and wait for a dump and then rapidly replace them on the add and then shatter before the next laser. So it works best to refrain from using something that should be iconic, save for a tiny window on the fight.

The example here was being used to illustrate that a lot of dungeons seem to be overly punitive for our mechanics specifically, and not to describe a challenging encounter; this boss was not particularly difficult and yes the terminator reference was awesome.

And I hate the scepter. I used it for the same reasons you did but I’ve just gone to GS and tried to deal with it being inferior in some situations. I really can’t stand the weapon. But having the 300 condition damage glaring at me for being 30 in illusion when I want to run a power build makes me cringe. I feel like I need to go staff/Scepter and alternate pistol and focus.