Guild Wars 2

I just got my Mesmer up to level 80 and am wondering on what build to go with for PVE, Dungeons, and {very} occasionally WvW. I know the most viable is a Zerker Greatsword, Sword+Focus (or Pistol) Phantasm build. However I don’t like the Greatsword at all and I really like the Staff skills. I was thinking about doing a shatter condition build with Staff but I’ve heard bad things about Mesmer condition builds. Was wondering if anyone had any advice or could point me in the direction of a viable build I could use as a basis for my own build.

Thanks in advance.

Since when is greatsword viable in dungeons?

No, the best builds to go for are 0/30/0/25/15 or 10/30/0/20/10, normally on sword/sword + sword/focus or sw/sw + sw/p. Conditions are a complete joke in PvE, though staff (with new sig of the ether especially) I can imagine is a nice weapon to open up a fight with by going warlock > sig > warlock > swap to sword+sword/pistol/focus, third dps phant, then whatever.

Shatters will normally just wreck your sustained DPS so it’s something you will generally avoid doing (you’ll learn which encounters and which situations shatters can work, like distortion against Lupicus’ AOE life drain if you don’t have blurred frenzy up).

WvW I honestly haven’t got a clue, you’d have to specify whether you were roaming or zerging, I can imagine stock phantasm or PU loadouts would be ideal for roaming whereas some sort of 20/20/0/0/30 glamour build for zerging would be more meta for that, though take my word on this with a pinch of salt and let someone more qualified answer there.

mahariel.4981:

Since when is greatsword viable in dungeons?

Since when isn’t (stupid censor) it?

I was just generally speaking, since it seems like most of the Mesmer builds people run are Zerker Greatsword builds. The problem I have with using Sword on both weapon sets is I’d be forced to be in melee range all of the time. If I do go with Berserker gear, that seems kinda squishy to be in melee range all the time, unless I’m missing something. I get that there is some survivability with Blurred Frenzy. But it’s on a 12 second cooldown, 9.5 if you’re traiting for it. For the purpose of this build discussion, forget I mentioned WvW. I’ll be doing PVE and dungeons (Fractals) mostly anyways.

Since when isn’t (stupid censor) it?

Since I, Guang and others bulldozed through the entire forum pointing out they were wrong. Range means lower dps and also means being out of boon range. Worst case scenario, you aggro the boss away from melee’ers, and I can tell you how annoying it is for Lupicus to get ranged aggro when I’m trying to melee. On the rare occasions I make a group, seeing greatsword on a mesmer is pretty much an instant kick, I did fractals with Emanuel a little while ago, we got to grawl and needed an extra and the moment I saw the phantasmal berserker and heard the laser, I initiated a kick.

I was just generally speaking, since it seems like most of the Mesmer builds people run are Zerker Greatsword builds.

Therefore the logical conclusion then is that most builds are bad. Note how it’s always pugs using greatswords and not decent players. Again, speaking of dungeons. Open world I find too casual to find worth arguing, and I’m pretty clueless about WvW.

The problem I have with using Sword on both weapon sets is I’d be forced to be in melee range all of the time. If I do go with Berserker gear, that seems kinda squishy to be in melee range all the time, unless I’m missing something.

Boss attacks tend to be quite clearly choreographed, so two dodges, perma-vigour, blurred frenzy and illusionary riposte tends to be pretty good damage mitigation. Lets you sit there and tank Subject Alpha like a champ, lets you block kicks from Lupicus, and gives you a lot of survivability against something like Colossus Rumblus which has annoyingly powerful, frequent attacks (that’s one fight which I repeatedly scrub out on).

But it’s on a 12 second cooldown, 9.5 if you’re traiting for it. For the purpose of this build discussion, forget I mentioned WvW. I’ll be doing PVE and dungeons (Fractals) mostly anyways.

Like I said, my advice is dungeon-centric. Damage mitigation in this game is best done actively, not passively through stacking defensive stats. Get yourself in melee and it’ll force you to pay attention to boss attacks and you’ll improve massively as a player, there’s been a number of times where I’ve had to solo bosses down after the group wiped and it’s knowledge of their attack patterns plus careful use of resources that saved me.

Sword/Sword and Sword/Focus is what I use mostly in Fractals. I will sometimes switch out one for Pistol. I only use a Greatsword on a few bosses (final dredge boss, thermareactor boss, molten duo and jade maw) because most don’t want to melee them.

mahariel.4981:

Since I, Guang and others bulldozed through the entire forum pointing out they were wrong.

I wasn’t aware that anyone had been elected Grand High Arbiter of Right and Wrong when it came to builds.

mahariel.4981:

Range means lower dps and also means being out of boon range.

It also means being out of “dying all the time” range, which is my preference.

mahariel.4981:

Worst case scenario, you aggro the boss away from melee’ers, and I can tell you how annoying it is for Lupicus to get ranged aggro when I’m trying to melee. On the rare occasions I make a group, seeing greatsword on a mesmer is pretty much an instant kick, I did fractals with Emanuel a little while ago, we got to grawl and needed an extra and the moment I saw the phantasmal berserker and heard the laser, I initiated a kick.

Well you’re just so uberUber00ber I’m clearly not worthy to be in your presence. (Honestly, the attitude of some people around here is amazing.)

(never mind, post reappeared)

I wasn’t aware that anyone had been elected Grand High Arbiter of Right and Wrong when it came to builds.

I wasn’t aware that greatsword had higher DPS and relevant utility skills so as opposed to sword and off-hand sword, pistol or focus.

Look at the greatsword objectively, versus something like sword-sword.

The auto attack is weaker. The second skill doesn’t really do anything, the third skill doesn’t do anything (and sword auto is boon stripping per 2.5s), the phantasm is outclassed by swordsman and the five skill is just awkward to use and replaceable by temporal curtain.

Sword auto is stronger, blurred frenzy is an extremely powerful evade, illusionary leap is questionable, illusionary riposte is a nice DPS spike when timed properly plus solid damage mitigation, and swordsman is our second strongest phantasm. Slot in focus, and you get temporal curtain and phantasmal warden which have spades of utility versus phantasmal berserker and illusionary wave.

It also means being out of “dying all the time” range, which is my preference.

If you go in melee, you learn the encounters, which means you die a lot less. Staying at range means you don’t bother to learn mechanics since you can safely pewpew from a distance.

Well you’re just so uberUber00ber I’m clearly not worthy to be in your presence. (Honestly, the attitude of some people around here is amazing.)

We want experienced players, and a mesmer using greatsword is clearly neither experienced nor aware of the actual meta. Since they didn’t fit the criteria of the group, they deserved a kick.

colesy (mahariel) has proven to me that running a phantasm sw/sw (or sw/p) and sw/f build is the best a mesmer can run for a dungeon spec. This would be maxing, if you will. It really is the best if you can learn the boss attacks and properly dodge.

That said, unlike others, I would never, ever kick someone if they took a GS into a dungeon. No, not everyone is aware of the meta and I shouldn’t expect them to be. I would politely try to coach them maybe, but they can do as they wish if it’s a PUG and I didn’t say “no GS mesmers please”.

Now, if I decided (for whatever reason) to bring a GS into a dungeon and got kicked for no apparent reason (meaning it was because of the GS), I would promptly report whomever did it. I’ve never been kicked for this reason and I’ve never reported anyone for anything, but I would in a heartbeat for that. It’s just elitist garbage IMO.

Why would you report them? If you join an experienced only LFG and you don’t fulfill their criteria, you are griefing them, therefore it actually be right for them to report you. I don’t join “lf p1 casual run” groups because I don’t share their mentality and wouldn’t inflict my insistence for efficiency on them and that would be griefing, however if I label my lfg “experienced only” and I get players who can’t perform trash skips, don’t use proper tactics on bosses and aren’t meleeing, it’s fully within my rights to kick them.

“Elitism” isn’t some kind of get out of jail free card that people who don’t care about efficiency can drop when they’re slighted by more hardcore players.

Saying you want experienced members is one thing. I, being aware of the meta, would not take a GS in that case. That’s just me though. Not sure how you can’t see the elitism when you kick someone who may even be a better mesmer than you (you asked for experienced, right) but is carrying a GS. If they’re experienced, just ask them. If they give you a bad answer, politely state that by experienced you meant “not GS”. Seriously you’re doing players no good by just kicking them outright once you hear the purple beam.

Of course that is your prerogative and this is my opinion.

EDIT: @Revlin, sorry about this little rabbit hole here, I don’t want to detract anything from your thread.

Some people seem to be under the bizarre impression that this is a mission-critical military operation rather than a game.

I don’t do dungeons a great deal (in part because it’s boring to do the same thing over and over, and in part because of pompous attitudes like those on display in this thread) but when I do, I go with friends or guildies. Despite not being 100% efficient, we still get through them. Sometimes we actually have a bit of fun, even if it takes a few minutes longer. Shocking, I know.

Oh, and on more than one occasion I have saved the group’s bacon specifically because I was not in melee range.

Not sure how you can’t see the elitism when you kick someone who may even be a better mesmer than you (you asked for experienced, right) but is carrying a GS

I’m pretty terrible on mesmer but if a mesmer is taking GS, they’re pretty much worse than me right there because it takes a conscious decision to be inefficient for someone to take greatsword.

And of course it’s elitist, but if they don’t meet my group’s requirements I have every right to kick them. When I ask for experienced players, I literally mean experienced players, not “i’ve done this a few times hurrrrr”, it’s why I’m at the point I just duo or trio dungeons mostly if I can’t get enough contacts, because I can’t stand carrying players who have claimed to be experienced.

But do you know what else is elitist? “p1, casual run”. That’s excluding metagamers and the people in the party feel them to be beneath them and don’t want to suffer their presence. But of course, that’s perfectly fine because … reasons.

If they’re experienced, just ask them

If a warrior rolls in to a dungeon with a longbow, do you think they’re experienced? No, of course not.

. If they give you a bad answer, politely state that by experienced you meant “not GS”. Seriously you’re doing players no good by just kicking them outright once you hear the purple beam.

I did my whole team good by booting them, we didn’t have time to be carrying people. The only thing I found unacceptable was one of the warriors we took along ,a guy I knew just said “we’re only taking you for the banner” which I thought was out of order.

Some people seem to be under the bizarre impression that this is a mission-critical military operation rather than a game.

OP asks for build ideas, I give him build ideas. You bait long tirades from me by questioning my condescension towards greatsword.

I don’t do dungeons a great deal (in part because it’s boring to do the same thing over and over, and in part because of pompous attitudes like those on display in this thread) but when I do, I go with friends or guildies. Despite not being 100% efficient, we still get through them. Sometimes we actually have a bit of fun, even if it takes a few minutes longer. Shocking, I know.

Listen to our TS comms and tell us all with a straight face that we weren’t having fun. Who would have guessed, efficiency can be fun.

Oh, and on more than one occasion I have saved the group’s bacon specifically because I was not in melee range.

And maybe to stop cheap remarks like this I need to start recording every time I finish off Lupicus or duo Alphard with a group to save them all from everlasting torment.

mahariel.4981:

OP asks for build ideas, I give him build ideas. You bait long tirades from me by questioning my condescension towards greatsword.

My initial question was an honest one as I have never had anyone say boo to me in game about my using a GS anywhere in PvE. The tirades were your choice.

mahariel.4981:

Who would have guessed, efficiency can be fun.

Efficiency can be fun. Dealing with people who think 100% efficiency is the end all be all of playing part of a game, or who obnoxiously boot people from their group because they decide their build isn’t exactly the way they would do it? Not fun.

I’d rather take twice as long to do a dungeon with “inefficient” players than have to endure one with an attitude like yours.

Aaaaaaand here we are with the same stupid discussion with those bulldozers GS-haters speed-everything and those fairytale do-the-peace pvers…

The truth is, GS is a bad choice if you want to maximize the DPS. Sword and offhand weapons surpasses it by a long shot.

BUUT… this doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have one in the inventory to use it in some areas where the laser-autoattack and the iZerker can be more useful.

In fact, every mesmer should have in his inventory 2 swords, 1 pistol, 1 focus, 1 GS and 1 Staff and change the weapon set depending on the situation.
As an example, I change between sword OH, pistol, focus, GS and Staff in CoF p1, the shortest dungeon in the game…

My initial question was an honest one as I have never had anyone say boo to me in game about my using a GS anywhere in PvE. The tirades were your choice.

If nobody has ever criticised it, you’re either playing with bad players, or good players who are too nice to say anything. The tirades were my choice, but you provoked them, so to try and clear yourself from responsibility I find quite pathetic when it’s pretty well known on this subforum that I’ll argue against the weapon until I’m blue in the face.

Efficiency can be fun. Dealing with people who think 100% efficiency is the end all be all of playing part of a game, or who obnoxiously boot people from their group because they decide their build isn’t exactly the way they would do it? Not fun.

You can melee both bosses in grawl fractal, therefore the mesmer having a greatsword demonstrates a lack of experience, an inability to learn, or a conscious decision to use a weaker weapon. If I ask for experienced players, I want experienced players. I dunno, maybe “is comfortable with the mechanics of an encounter and plays and gears appropriately” is too much to ask from a supposedly experienced player.

I’d rather take twice as long to do a dungeon with “inefficient” players than have to endure one with an attitude like yours.

Which is why I don’t dungeon with inexperienced players, again, so I don’t inflict myself on them. If I can do all of you a favour by not partying with you, please do groups asking for experienced players a favour, and leave your ranged weapons at home.

Please get back on topic(Build Ideas). Stop being counterproductive by harassing others about whether they use or don’t use a certain build. It’s not helpful and you can argue morals in a different area of the forum like general discussion.

Now with that said. If you want to have a mix of melee, range build. You could always go with a scepter/pistol, sword, sword/focus. Just keep in mind that a scepter clone will replace the 3rd phantasm if you have 3 out with the auto attack. Sure the scepter’s mostly conditions but it gives you a block and blind, and some range and really in pve phantasms do most of the heavy work anyway.

Skcamow, thanks for your explanation and apology for the comments in this thread. I’d rather not get in the middle of the argument, but I think helping someone understand how to be a better player, as opposed to just kicking them, is something that helps everyone out, so I agree with you.

Qaelyn, I agree with you as well. When I run dungeons, its with guildies and friends who are more interested in showing players how to fights right the first time, instead of just kicking less “experienced” players. I stay away from the LFG tool for the same reason you do (try to avoid elitist groups). After all, it’s a game and people play it to have fun.

On the topic of my thread, I just wanted to get ideas for builds that didn’t involve a GS because I don’t care for the skills. Mahariel states that having a GS means you’re an inexperienced player, which is correct for my mesner, since I just hit 80, hence why I’m asking the question. I’m more interested in whether someone had a condition build that was considered viable. After searching the forums, I’m leaning more towards running with the Blackwater build with some tweaks to make it better for PVE, and less for WvW.

Qaelyn.7612:

mahariel.4981:

OP asks for build ideas, I give him build ideas. You bait long tirades from me by questioning my condescension towards greatsword.

My initial question was an honest one as I have never had anyone say boo to me in game about my using a GS anywhere in PvE. The tirades were your choice.

mahariel.4981:

Who would have guessed, efficiency can be fun.

Efficiency can be fun. Dealing with people who think 100% efficiency is the end all be all of playing part of a game, or who obnoxiously boot people from their group because they decide their build isn’t exactly the way they would do it? Not fun.

I’d rather take twice as long to do a dungeon with “inefficient” players than have to endure one with an attitude like yours.

These comments seem a bit rude, although the person you were talking to may seem overbearing?, they are the only one in this forum that has actually answered your question and gave you ideas just like you wanted. Now I personally am not the most proficient Mesmer and I actually prefer the 0/30/0/25/15 that mahariel.4981 linked, but if you are really attached to your greatsword or you just need to start out a little slower rather than diving in head first heres a possible build for you perhaps, 20/10/0/25/15 it will allow your to specialize in GS, SW/SW, and SW/Focus.

edit: Ah I see I made a mistake in reading you don’t like the great sword

Well I don’t know how well this would work for pve but maybe some kind of shatter build and sharing the might you get off interrupts with signet of inspirations, with some type of 20/0/20/0/30 build, or if you really want to go with staff 10/0/30/0/30, again I don’t play Mesmer all that often so this may not be all that great but I was trying to come up with something you might enjoy but might not necessarily be spectacular.

Qaelyn, I agree with you as well. When I run dungeons, its with guildies and friends who are more interested in showing players how to fights right the first time, instead of just kicking less “experienced” players. I stay away from the LFG tool for the same reason you do (try to avoid elitist groups). After all, it’s a game and people play it to have fun.

Not aimed at me, but there’s a point here worth responding to regardless. Do you think it’s fine that I make an LFG asking for an experienced player, get an inexperienced one and have to kick them since they don’t fit the criteria? Do you think it’s fine to grief my group purely because it’s “elitist”? Again, I will not join a “casual run, p1” group, so why should inexperienced players join my experienced only lfgs?

Not one experienced player I know with a mesmer runs greatsword, and for the extremely rare times that I log mesmer, I don’t either, so why was it wrong for me to kick the mesmer from my fractal when I made the logical assumption that they weren’t experienced? I’d do exactly the same if I saw a shield, scepter, mace or staff on a guardian.

After searching the forums, I’m leaning more towards running with the Blackwater build with some tweaks to make it better for PVE, and less for WvW.

Blackwater is complete trash for PvE since it takes traits that are completely irrelevant, just how running some 30/25/0/0/15 warrior in to PvP is complete trash there since the traits aren’t going to help you survive against the meta. Builds like 0/30/0/25/15, 10/30/0/20/10, 10/30/0/10/20 are the kind of ones you want to run for dungeons since they hit both personal and phantasm damage modifiers, provide cooldown reductions for relevant skills and in any x/x/x/20/x build, you trait your focus which enables your phantasmal warden and temporal curtain to reflect projectiles.

How is it possible to grief someone with a greatsword in a pve dungeon? O.O

It’s a lot easier in pvp/wvw though.

OP’ if you like the blackwater build, may I suggest you a PU phantasm build? It will be more effective than any condi build in pve, and it works really well in wvw too.

They’re griefing because they’re joining an experienced only lfg while not being experienced, just how it would be griefing for me to join a casual group while not being a casual. I don’t like carrying people unless I’ve specifically gone in to the dungeon with intent to carry (like the Arah p2 teaching run I did a little while back).

mahariel.4981:

Do you think it’s fine that I make an LFG asking for an experienced player, get an inexperienced one and have to kick them since they don’t fit the criteria?

I understand that some people, yourself included, like experienced runs and that’s perfectly fine. When I see a LFG post and they say experienced, that tells me that you should know the fight/mechanics of the dungeon before joining. I have no problem with this. My disagreement is that you vote kick someone just because you see they have a particular weapon equiped. They could have a really good build that maybe you never thought of, but you’ll never know since you vote kicked them.

The purpose of this thread was to get ideas for builds, not complain about getting inexperienced players in an “experience run” dungeon group. I never said I was looking for the most efficient Mesmer build, but a build that uses a staff and is somewhat viable/usable in PVE. I know that the Blackwater build has some bad traits for PVE, which is why I said I would modify the build to be more useful in PVE. I think what I’ll end up doing is coming up with my own condition build, buy Carrion gear cause its cheap, and then see how I like it. Just cause I choose a condition build now, doesn’t mean I have to stick with it.

My disagreement is that you vote kick someone just because you see they have a particular weapon equiped. They could have a really good build that maybe you never thought of, but you’ll never know since you vote kicked them.

No, they won’t have a really good build I never thought of, because meta builds are good builds, and not a single meta build uses a greatsword. Also, it’s people who built the meta who are the ones who push classes to their maximum, so there’s no kind of hidden secret that could suddenly make greatsword good, therefore someone using it is clearly inexperienced with either an encounter, their class, or even both.

I know that the Blackwater build has some bad traits for PVE, which is why I said I would modify the build to be more useful in PVE.

Quite literally every single trait in the blackwater build is useless in PvE. Swap the traits around, drop the 10 in domination, 30 in chaos and stick them literally anywhere besides where they originally were and take more appropriate traits. So that leaves you with 10/20/0/0/0 and forty trait points. Drop the 10 in domination for fifty trait points.

I seriously can not believe you guys are perfectly ok with someone attempting to grief my instance, like, I am literally flabbergasted that you’re perfectly cool with it.

@Revlin, an additional dungeon build that works very well (the other meta phantasm build) is 10/20/0/25/15. It hits all of the phantasm boosting traits that you need. The other meta build, 0/30/0/25/15, maximizes your own damage through empowering mantras, and is better DPS in many situations, but 10/20/0/25/15 is a bit easier to use since you are not camping mantras. But also, Mahariel is correct, you should not use staff, it has no place in in dungeons and fractals. It is amazing in PvP/WvW, but not for dungeons.

@Mahariel, to be fair, while melee-ing the first grawl boss can be learned pretty quickly, melee-ing the elemental shaman is difficult, and very few “experienced only” players melee him. I have run a ton of 48 (now 49) fractals and never been in such a group that went full melee on the grawl boss. If you plan on kicking someone who were to use a ranged option, such as scepter/pistol (what I use) or GS, on the elemental shaman, you really are better off not taking a PuG. I think you should be very clear in the post. You can know some of the boss fights very well and be very experienced, such as the final dredge boss and the final grawl boss, and have always run in groups that use ranged weapons. To say it demonstrates an inability to learn or that you are not experienced is excessive. You should probably say “melee everywhere or kick” in your post to be fair to other players.

Just a couple notes.

On greatsword: Since boss cam is bugged in the final grawl fight, I’ve been just gs attacking it recently. I simply can’t stand being next to the boss and being unable to see it. It feels claustrophobic and I usually end up dying from a dive bomb that I didn’t see in time. It’s also very strong in the molten facility boss fight.

Next: Conditions. Don’t do it. Blackwater is not an appropriate build for any sort of PvE. There are other condition builds that would work better even than it, and no condition build is even worth a second thought in PvE. Here’s a quick explanation.

If you maintain 25 bleed stacks and burning 100% of the time on a target, you have the effective dps of 2 swordsmen and halfhearted auto attacking. You won’t maintain 25 stacks, 10 is probably the most you can hope for, and too many classes apply burning to consistently have burn ticks.

The absolute maximum best case condition scenario is worse than a so-so sorta trying phantasm build. Don’t use them.

In general, I’d stick with the standard 10/20/0/25/15 build, with sword/focus+sword/sword, having a gs, torch, staff, and scepter in your inventory just for those niche situations you want them. You could go more specialized with 0/30/0/25/15 or 10/30/0/20/10, but I personally prefer the first one mentioned, I find it more well rounded and generally best performing.

Edit: just noticed you mentioned wvw as well. That’s a whole different situation. What do you intend on doing? Zerging, kill groups, or solo roaming?

Condition builds are in general just bad in pve. Carrion gear is especially bad for mesmers in all aspects of the game. Our main source of bleeds is sharper images + illusions. You can easily hit the 25 bleed cap but then other ppl usually happen and bring those down to ~5-10. This also requires precision. With carrion gear, your average bleed stacks will be like 3. Confusion is also pretty bad in PvE since most of it is short lived and most enemies attack really slow. So at least get rabid/rampagers instead of carrion if you insist on condi builds in pve but it’s going to very suboptimal.

Revlin, since you’re a new player, I won’t compare gs vs sword so much as talk about boons and staying near your team. Might, fury and other class buffs are extremely strong and can easily double your damage. However, they require being close to your team (600 range). So even if GS and sword were equal on their own, double damage by stacking in melee is just too good for an “elitist” to ever consider bringing the GS which does poor damage in melee. Furthermore, the sword+offhands>gs when it comes to utility and damage so a lot of us don’t consider GS “viable” in dungeon builds.

As mentioned above, variants of 0/30/0/20/15 offer the most when it comes to both reflects and damage. Feel free to experiment with builds though. If you want to run 20/20/30/0/0, I’d recommend full zerker gear with full interrupt traits. Then share the might/boons with your team via signet of inspiration. You won’t have any reflects traited and your staff damage will be poor but at least you will occasionally give the group 25 might. As you do dungeons though, if you pay attention, you will realize that it is usually 1 or 2 players that are making a dungeon a breeze for everyone else while the rest of party are doing “fun” builds. If you ever decide you want to try and be that player, go at least 0/20/0/20/0 and full zerker for mesmers. Since other classes do the might/boon stacking much better, leave it to them.

I run dungeons with pugs quite often. Since you mentioned staff Ill throw the build I like out there. 10/15/20/25/0 this offers the expected dps from phantasms and you have a bit more survivability to help with people that get downed. (Since there are people that can run GC and people who like to in pugs…) Its also easy to switch to boon support when you get those selfish signet builds in your pug. The same as any other build you’d run and want to carry an extra of each weapon.

Don’t bother with a mesmer condition spec for pve.

@Mahariel, to be fair, while melee-ing the first grawl boss can be learned pretty quickly, melee-ing the elemental shaman is difficult, and very few “experienced only” players melee him. I have run a ton of 48 (now 49) fractals and never been in such a group that went full melee on the grawl boss.

Then quite clearly they’re not experienced. How is it that someone like me who basically never runs fractals has learnt all of the tells and melees imbued shaman but a ton of “experienced” players don’t? With the camera bug it’s a lot more understandable, but before then it’s practically inexcusable.

think you should be very clear in the post. You can know some of the boss fights very well and be very experienced, such as the final dredge boss and the final grawl boss, and have always run in groups that use ranged weapons.

Again, they’re clearly not experienced and clearly don’t know the fight if they’re ranging. If you actually know the final dredge boss you can go balls deep in melee and not get hit once, use DnT videos as a reference if you want, that’s where I learnt the tells from, and then I rolled a pug, melee’d just fine and basically carried the entire group’s DPS.

To say it demonstrates an inability to learn or that you are not experienced is excessive.

It’s not excessive at all, it’s completely correct. Experienced players know their actual boundaries when it comes to melee vs. ranged such as Vahid in Arah p4, and Archdiviner forces you to back out of melee too since his attacks are very hard-hitting. With pretty much 99% of other bosses though, if you’re ranging it demonstrates one or multiple of the following:

1. Inability to learn
2. Refusal to learn
3. Laziness
4. Incompetence

I’d put “playhowyouwant” as under incompetence too, such as a bearbow who enjoys ranging. Pugs generally fall under all four categories since they’re sheep to the perceived meta; I’m sure if you asked a “no rangers, necros, engis” lfg why they’d just say “bad” or “low dps”, which means that they’re just following a perceived meta they don’t understand, and don’t realise why those classes have a stigma attached to them.

It’s amazing that someone can (in theory) be so good at a videogame, and yet so completely horrible at understanding the natural variances that exist in human ability in a wide variety of areas.

People like you shouldn’t PUG at all. Find a guild with other “ubermenschen” who take themselves far too seriously and run with them – it will insulate you from possibly being stuck with lesser beings, and spare all of us mere mortals from having to deal with your noxious attitude.

Interesting that you’ve resorted to ad hominems and i’m the noxious one. You know my standards for “experienced” are perfectly reasonable, yet you’re arguing against me for no real reason besides “I don’t like you” – it’s at that point you should just step out because your personal feelings are clouding your judgement.

I’m not flawless, I die, I make errors, and anyone I’ve played with can testify to that, but when I write “experienced only” in my lfg, I don’t expect to get people who aren’t geared properly and are clearly not experienced; a mesmer using greatsword is like a ranger using bow – clear signs of an inexperienced player, and yet we will all happily condescend towards bearbows (because hurhur it’s so funny), but when it comes to calling out bads of other classes, like greatsword mesmers and cleric mace/shield guards, people like to defend their abysmal builds.

mahariel.4981:

Interesting that you’ve resorted to ad hominems and i’m the noxious one.

I think your constant insistence that everyone who disagrees with you is somehow either stupid or griefing puts you well into the ad hominem category. And that’s just here; the noxious behavior I was talking about is what you’ve described about how you act in-game.

mahariel.4981:

You know my standards for “experienced” are perfectly reasonable…

No, actually, I don’t. But thanks for again demonstrating your apparent inability to conceive of anyone being different than you are.

People with such specific ideas about what “experienced” means should not be PUGging, IMO.

I think your constant insistence that everyone who disagrees with you is somehow either stupid or griefing puts you well into the ad hominem category.

What? Someone griefing my lfg means I’m using ad hominems?

And that’s just here; the noxious behavior I was talking about is what you’ve described about how you act in-game.

Why yes, I’m a complete horror in-game, just ask all those people who talk to me in game how much of a pain I am.

spoiler alert – i’m not

People with such specific ideas about what “experienced” means should not be PUGging, IMO.

So let’s get this straight:

“is comfortable with the mechanics of an encounter and plays and gears appropriately”

Is an extreme definition of experienced? If someone is well-versed in something, it means they can do it efficiently both through their method and their choice of gear since they know how best to tackle the content.

mahariel.4981:

What? Someone griefing my lfg means I’m using ad hominems?

LOL, I give up.

Classy as ever I see. Not even bothering to answer me with real responses, just calling me out for imaginary ad hominems.

You’ve got a definition of “experienced” that implies specific characteristics of a build that you expect others to magically know, and you’d consider someone applying to your group without meeting your predefined requirements – even if they actually are experienced but just play differently – an act of “griefing”.

That’s a level of self-absorption that precludes any sort of reasonable discussion.

I wrote what I did because I literally laughed at your reply – it’s kind of amazing that you can’t see how wrapped up you are in your own view of things to the point where you’re incapable of entertaining the idea that others might see things differently.

Enough you two. Your posturing is making this forum smell bad.

You’ve got a definition of “experienced” that implies specific characteristics of a build that you expect others to magically know, and you’d consider someone applying to your group without meeting your predefined requirements – even if they actually are experienced but just play differently – an act of “griefing”.

Then they’re not experienced. If a bearbow joins my group, are they “experienced but play differently”? Of course not, they’re just pewpewing content and letting beary the bear roll in to eat hits every now and then. Like I said, an experienced player is someone who is comfortable with the mechanics of an encounter (e.g. meleeing Lupicus because you know his tells) and gears appropriately (i.e. berserker gear since they will be able to mitigate damage through dodging, blocks, blind, invulnerability or whatever other resources their class has at its disposal), and for someone to not fit that is griefing because you’re imposing yourself on a group that’s not interested in having you. If you made a group for a casual dungeon run and I joined, I would be griefing because I don’t share that mentality and as a result do not meet the prerequisite of your group. Again in my case, the pug joining does not meet the prerequisite of my group and is therefore griefing.

That’s a level of self-absorption that precludes any sort of reasonable discussion.
I wrote what I did because I literally laughed at your reply – it’s kind of amazing that you can’t see how wrapped up you are in your own view of things to the point where you’re incapable of entertaining the idea that others might see things differently.

It’s stuff like this that adds nothing to discussion.

Enough you two. Your posturing is making this forum smell bad.

Also this adds nothing. I can’t have an (albeit one-sided) argument or debate in this forum without having insults thrown at me.

mahariel.4981:

You’ve got a definition of “experienced” that implies specific characteristics of a build that you expect others to magically know, and you’d consider someone applying to your group without meeting your predefined requirements – even if they actually are experienced but just play differently – an act of “griefing”.

Then they’re not experienced.

And that’s why I said there’s nothing to discuss with people who think that their way is the only way to do anything. You keep calling it an “ad hominem” but you’re basically agreeing with me that you consider “experienced” to be “does things the way I do them”. I don’t agree with that definition, nor I expect do most people, and so there’s really nothing to talk about.

mahariel.4981:

I can’t have an (albeit one-sided) argument or debate in this forum without having insults thrown at me.

Funny because I can’t recall ever getting into an exchange like this one here before. If it happens to you regularly, you might want to reflect on why that is.

mahariel.4981:

Also this adds nothing. I can’t have an (albeit one-sided) argument or debate in this forum without having insults thrown at me.

I wasn’t attempting to add anything. I was notifying the both of you that nobody wants to watch your kitten contest. Take it to PMs if you must continue.

Also this adds nothing. I can’t have an (albeit one-sided) argument or debate in this forum without having insults thrown at me.

Maybe that’s because there is no real argument or discussion to be had with you, because you apparently believe your viewpoints to be the only correct ones. (So yes, it is one-sided).

There are obviously some builds and ways of playing that are bad or inferior to others, and you’re not wrong in all your points, but your delivery needs some working on. And in the final analysis if a group can successfully complete a dungeon, and do it in roughly the same amount of time (and have fun!), does it really matter if they kill the final boss at range or with melee? Whatever works, works. You can’t argue with results. Although you’ll probably try.

And that’s why I said there’s nothing to discuss with people who think that their way is the only way to do anything. You keep calling it an “ad hominem” but you’re basically agreeing with me that you consider “experienced” to be “does things the way I do them”. I don’t agree with that definition, nor I expect do most people, and so there’s really nothing to talk about.

I don’t understand what’s so extreme about my definition. Would you honestly say “is comfortable with the mechanics of an encounter and plays and gears appropriately” is an unfair definition of an experienced player?

Funny because I can’t recall ever getting into an exchange like this one here before. If it happens to you regularly, you might want to reflect on why that is.

It’s because my views are unpopular so they get flak.

Maybe that’s because there is no real argument or discussion to be had with you, because you apparently believe your viewpoints to be the only correct ones. (So yes, it is one-sided).

If you feel my definition of experienced is unfair, please explain why. It looks reasonable when I read it, I’m not sure what I’m missing. I’ve quoted it again just above this so you can take a look again.

There are obviously some builds and ways of playing that are bad or inferior to others, and you’re not wrong in all your points, but your delivery needs some working on.

My delivery does not need working on, people need to stop getting their feelings involved and start looking at things practically.

And in the final analysis if a group can successfully complete a dungeon, and do it in roughly the same amount of time (and have fun!)

Time to link it again I guess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=427QaI-Ic5U

It’s almost like … we had fun. Did you know minmaxers could have fun? I never would have guessed, it seems crazy.

, does it really matter if they kill the final boss at range or with melee? Whatever works, works. You can’t argue with results. Although you’ll probably try.

What matters is that people who meet the criteria of my lfg join. People who range aren’t experienced and therefore are instantly deserving of a kick.

I think the fair way to resolve this is to get mah and Q to put together a group each and do a dungeon/temple run.. Let’s see.. Maybe a 8 person group with at least 2 mesmer. Q and his team mesmer have to use GS.

If the times come out within 10% then agree to disagree.

If not whoever is 11+% slower can shut-it.

Anywho I’d like to volunteer for Q’s team ;-)

Cya

Well I took part in an 8:58 Arah p3 run, and 12:41 and 12:22 Arah p2 runs, so how about you see how much damage you can do in comparison to our mesmer in each boss fight, there’s full recordings of his perspective too.

Drudgen.6597:

If not whoever is 11+% slower can shut-it.

I’ve already “shut it” – as I said yesterday, it’s pointless to have a discussion with someone who has a “my way or the highway” approach to things.

Anyway, I never claimed to be an expert at running dungeons, and I have no interest in a kitten-waving contest involving stopwatches. I’m sure he’s a lot faster than I am, but that’s really besides the point.

That said, I’d be happy to run with folks here any time. (Well, as long as they don’t take themselves too bloody seriously, anyway.)

ETA: I usually rep OMFG on Sunday along with others. Join in!

You all keep avoiding my question.

Is “is comfortable with the mechanics of an encounter and plays and gears appropriately” an extreme definition of “experienced”? Nobody is answering this, I keep getting told that my expectations are extreme, but the quote is exactly what my standards are when I make an “experienced only” lfg. Is it unfair? And if so, why?

mahariel.4981:

You all keep avoiding my question.

Is “is comfortable with the mechanics of an encounter and plays and gears appropriately” an extreme definition of “experienced”? Nobody is answering this, I keep getting told that my expectations are extreme, but the quote is exactly what my standards are when I make an “experienced only” lfg. Is it unfair? And if so, why?

In my opinion, the quoted definition is not extreme and actually very fair. However, I do believe that you should recognize that while there is the melee method to almost all bosses, some other fights like the elemental shaman, lupicus, and the final dredge boss, all have very common and very often used ranged tactics (out of maybe 50 runs of 48s, I have only twice been in groups that melee these and that’s because someone was vocal about it). I think if a mesmer pulled out a ranged weapon on any of these fights, that you should communicate to him/her that your group is doing the melee method. If the player is experienced, he will know the basic strategies for melee-ing the fight and will switch. You should not insta-kick, just mention the use of melee weapons. for the fight. If he says anything to the contrary and acts all “but GS is king blah blah”, then you are totally within your bounds to kick the player.

I was a bit miffed at the example you mentioned, with the mesmer at the volcanic fractal (which can only be a 3rd fractal), because I believe by, at most, the 2nd fractal, you should have been able to tell if the mesmer played how an experienced mesmer should play, and kicked accordingly. Since he was fine until volcanic, it seems very harsh to kick him upon seeing the greatsword. Maybe he thought he would pull the guys and then switch to melee once they aggroed in the stack? I do not know, it just seemed harsh and that you should have been able to tell sooner.

mahariel.4981:

Is “is comfortable with the mechanics of an encounter and plays and gears appropriately” an extreme definition of “experienced”? Nobody is answering this, I keep getting told that my expectations are extreme, but the quote is exactly what my standards are when I make an “experienced only” lfg. Is it unfair? And if so, why?

There are several problems with your approach.

1. You conflate “experienced” with “efficient”. There are very experienced players in all games who choose to use methods other than what even they consider optimally efficient for a wide variety of reasons.

2. You’re unwilling to entertain the possibility that someone might have come up with a method that’s actually superior to yours. Most of the “way things are done” both in games and in real life start out with an idea that at first many think is weird and sometimes even stupid. Or as Bertrand Russell put it: “Every great idea starts out as a blasphemy.”

3. You won’t take into account personal differences that can have a bigger impact than raw game abilities and figures. Someone who is comfortable with a particular way of doing things, even if it is nominally less efficient, can in some cases be better at it than an average person doing things the “right way”. There are examples across all fields of endeavor.

4. You have specific expectations and demands that you expect others to intuitively understand without communicating them. To you “experienced” means “doesn’t use a GS”, but that doesn’t mean it means the same thing to others. Or put another way, the word “appropriately” as you keep using it is extremely vague and entirely open to interpretation.

5. You’ve admitted that you’d boot someone from a party rather than communicate to them your expectations, which is churlish behavior.

In my opinion, the quoted definition is not extreme and actually very fair. However, I do believe that you should recognize that while there is the melee method to almost all bosses, some other fights like the elemental shaman, lupicus, and the final dredge boss, all have very common and very often used ranged tactics (out of maybe 50 runs of 48s, I have only twice been in groups that melee these and that’s because someone was vocal about it). I think if a mesmer pulled out a ranged weapon on any of these fights, that you should communicate to him/her that your group is doing the melee method. If the player is experienced, he will know the basic strategies for melee-ing the fight and will switch. You should not insta-kick, just mention the use of melee weapons. for the fight. If he says anything to the contrary and acts all “but GS is king blah blah”, then you are totally within your bounds to kick the player.
I was a bit miffed at the example you mentioned, with the mesmer at the volcanic fractal (which can only be a 3rd fractal), because I believe by, at most, the 2nd fractal, you should have been able to tell if the mesmer played how an experienced mesmer should play, and kicked accordingly. Since he was fine until volcanic, it seems very harsh to kick him upon seeing the greatsword. Maybe he thought he would pull the guys and then switch to melee once they aggroed in the stack? I do not know, it just seemed harsh and that you should have been able to tell sooner.

We pretty much 3-manned Fractals and then set up an LFG for volcanic, so the badsword mesmer wasn’t with us beforehand. We had a p/p thief in uncategorised we booted too.

However, since we’ve got it out in the open that my definition is reasonable, it was therefore fair of me to initiate a kick. If most pugs range certain bosses, then well maybe they should stop writing “experienced only” in their LFG because it just means they’re looking for actual experienced players to carry them, and I’ve carried basically every single pug i’ve done Arah p2 with through Alphard despite them supposedly being experienced.

It’s unfair on players like me who want actual experienced players to be subjected to bads like this who refuse to read my LFG properly.