Opinions on PU?
Power mesmers running PU are a completely different beast. They also give up quite a bit to get that stealth. Dueling obviously can’t be dropped. Illusions is also fairly mandatory as it reduces clone/phantasm cds AND shatter cds as well as providing some might. That leaves usually Domination, which can provide an insane amount of vulnerability to a proper burst. So giving up anyone of those lines for stealth isn’t exactly an easy choice.
They do not give up quite a bit to get stealth… Power shatter is highly effective no matter what 2 trees you go into in addition to Dueling. Illusions is not the least bit mandatory imo. Yes, most power shatter builds will benefit from the line, but you give up that extra power & clone management in exchange for either survivability or control. The latter is what is causing issues.
Duel/Chaos/Dom = the ability to quickly lock enemies down via CS and MoD. This is the biggest issue people are seeing. You don’t need the Shatter CDs in Illusions when it only takes 1 shatter out of stealth to down an enemy. Dwayna forbid the Mesmer is running Mental Anguish when he shatters you…
All this is to really say damage across all professions is just high right now. We’ll have to wait a while to see how things shake out and see if people are able to adjust. Maybe we’ll see tanker amulets used in response or more supportive builds being run…
Going Duel/Chaos/Dom with Mantra of Distraction (and assuming both Blink and Decoy are taken) means you have zero condition removal. I’d say that’s a pretty big weakness.
I guess you haven’t faced any Signet Power Shatters then with Mental Anguish… quite nasty! In this day and age, that’s a kittenumption. I rarely use Decoy unless I’m going into Illusions which gives me room for a condi clear. One stunbreak tends to be enough for me personally. Blink out performs Decoy every time. I think most Mesmers have room for a condi clear at this point… especially if they’re using PU which gives you ample time for MoR/MoD recharges.
https://www.twitch.tv/thatcho
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
Just a thought off what mailmail said about shatters not needing to go into illusions and stuff.
At the moment just about the only line a power shatter needs to go into is duelling for DE. A lot of power shatters aren’t even picking up the trait for more damage on shatter.
Could it be that mind wrack is too strong without any form of investment other than berserker gear? Not saying it needs nerfing into the floor but if you can 100-0 someone without having to pick distinctive “do more damage with X” or “do more damage when X” then it says to me it’s too strong.
This is why I’m against nerfing PU atm as we haven’t had enough time to really figure out if it’s the cause of a problem or a side effect of it and the real culprit is elsewhere.
Mind Wrack definitely isn’t too strong in PvE. Untraited it can’t even take 25% out of an open world Veteran (i.e. no event scaling or dungeon mechanics, just one of those random vets in a corner of the map)
The 2-3 phantasms you’re likely to shatter will do the same damage in one attack cycle.
The problem probably stems from fiddling with the base stats, less “wasted” potential investing into defensive traitlines and a general shift in the damage vs hp scale (hp doesn’t really matter in PvE)
So I would suggest adjusting base hp/armor in WvW/sPvP instead of going on a whack-a-mole nerfing spree against all burst combos and damaging conditions.
(edited by Photoloss.4817)
The problem probably stems from fiddling with the base stats, less “wasted” potential investing into defensive traitlines and a general shift in the damage vs hp scale (hp doesn’t really matter in PvE)
Yeah, I’d agree with this. The 100 points or so of Vitality that was given back from the trait changes wasn’t enough. I think ANet might want to tweak the level 80 stats, Vitality→HP formula, or something else to even things out before looking at specific class-level nerfs. It makes the most sense, if we’re seeing damage get too high across the board, which seems to be the case.
Amberley Avalen – Charr Mesmer
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger
i hate stealth abilities longer then 4 sec. stealth supposed to be a mechanism which should be used as re-positioning or disengage and not moving from point to point unseen thus SR for 15 sec is a joke also the buff to pu the same 10 sec and 6 sec????
for mesmer they should do that if illusion hit or created you get revealed
maybe also a unique change which if you stealth and walk close to your enemy you get unstealth (not revealed) so you can choose or to attack or gain stealth again
this way mesmer and thief will choose carefully when to attack and the enemy can move around to try to unstealth them.
Fine as it is. I’ve said it elsewhere, but having plentiful stealth makes sense for Mesmers both mechanically (in that the stated design ideal for Mesmer defense is “don’t get hit in the first place”) and thematically, as you are an illusionist. This is the amount of stealth that Mesmer should’ve had all along.
i hate stealth abilities longer then 4 sec. stealth supposed to be a mechanism which should be used as re-positioning or disengage and not moving from point to point unseen thus SR for 15 sec is a joke also the buff to pu the same 10 sec and 6 sec????
for mesmer they should do that if illusion hit or created you get revealed
maybe also a unique change which if you stealth and walk close to your enemy you get unstealth (not revealed) so you can choose or to attack or gain stealth again
this way mesmer and thief will choose carefully when to attack and the enemy can move around to try to unstealth them.
The first change would cause accidental reveal a huge amount of the time and would probably be way worse than thieves dreaded Last Refuge minor trait. Mesmer already has an issue with bouncing projectiles causing reveal, but with that change it’d make using any kind of stealth while holding a staff almost impossible unless you literally shatter then do nothing(not even dodging) until all the clones reach your target. So stealth would essentially be better for your opponent than it would be for the person actually trying to use it.
As for the unstealth near enemies, that would also kinda defeat the purpose of having stealth. Decoy and the Prestige would fall off almost immediately in a lot of situations since they are typically used while disabled or in melee range. Mesmers and thieves already don’t make good on-point pressure, that change would pretty much doom them to roaming forever as stealth would be almost entirely useless anywhere near a small scale fight with several opponents.
i hate stealth abilities longer then 4 sec. stealth supposed to be a mechanism which should be used as re-positioning or disengage and not moving from point to point unseen thus SR for 15 sec is a joke also the buff to pu the same 10 sec and 6 sec????
for mesmer they should do that if illusion hit or created you get revealed
maybe also a unique change which if you stealth and walk close to your enemy you get unstealth (not revealed) so you can choose or to attack or gain stealth again
this way mesmer and thief will choose carefully when to attack and the enemy can move around to try to unstealth them.
The first change would cause accidental reveal a huge amount of the time and would probably be way worse than thieves dreaded Last Refuge minor trait. Mesmer already has an issue with bouncing projectiles causing reveal, but with that change it’d make using any kind of stealth while holding a staff almost impossible unless you literally shatter then do nothing(not even dodging) until all the clones reach your target. So stealth would essentially be better for your opponent than it would be for the person actually trying to use it.
As for the unstealth near enemies, that would also kinda defeat the purpose of having stealth. Decoy and the Prestige would fall off almost immediately in a lot of situations since they are typically used while disabled or in melee range. Mesmers and thieves already don’t make good on-point pressure, that change would pretty much doom them to roaming forever as stealth would be almost entirely useless anywhere near a small scale fight with several opponents.
the first change make the mesmer using stealth when needed and not abusing it like burst or disengage. thus destroy your clones before you stealth. which make sense as with burst you wanna been seen and not instagab from stealth. and for disengage also dont leave behind illusions to do your dmg
for the second if you cant cap point why using stealth on the point as you cant cap. this change make thieves and mesmer use stealth from bit range above 130r and not just standing and abusing stealth till the right moment come.
but i see your concerns
Interesting, delete the plus of illusions from the mechanic of mesmers to mitigate their burst from stealth…. I’m curious, what would you change first of the engineers that can burst you from stealth at medium-long range?
And of rangers with those stackable trapper runes + QZ + RF + RF after change the set of weapons and from any distance?
And of thiefs that always have a extra burst from stealth inherent to their traits and skills?
(edited by Zoser.7245)
Why not just make stealth auto log out to character select. That way they’ll never find you.
In all seriousness, your changes would make it so stealth pretty much becomes nothing more than a pretty faulty positioning tool that doesn’t work in a majority of situations. Using stealth on point would be wasted since they just run in a small circle and reveal you. Shadow Refuge would literally never work. See mesmer casting mass invis? Just follow them till the cast completes and they’ll have wasted a 90 second cd. Cloak and Dagger immediately reveals you upon giving you stealth since it is indeed a melee range skill. You’d be better off removing stealth completely and replacing it with a new mechanic at that point.
Well I’ve spent a bit of time using PU in shatter, condi, interrupt AND phantasm builds and it honestly feels a bit ridiculous. Mass Invis becomes more powerful than Shadow Refuge with none of the risk as you can just use a 0 clone distortion to always cover most of the cast. Honestly, it just feels wrong in its current state. In my opinion, 100% extra stealth is just too much. Feels kind of bad for the game.
As clone death has but vanished and condition Mesmer generally being weaker with the exception of confusion spike builds, I think it would be better to revert PU to its first incarnation now. Protection, Aegis or Regeneration with an extra second of stealth.
Gandara
Interesting, delete the plus of illusions from the mechanic of mesmers to mitigate their burst from stealth…. I’m curious, what would you change first of the engineers that can burst you from stealth at medium-long range?
And of rangers with those stackable trapper runes + QZ + RF + RF after change the set of weapons and from any distance?
And of thiefs that always have a extra burst from stealth inherent to their traits and skills?
before trapper runes ranger use stealth to re-positioning which is what stealth ment to do . also engi used stealth the same mainly if they felt the pressure on them. now with all the power bugs they use it to sneak on you with grenades
stealth should be mainly for thieves to be used. so if so and you right thieves burst comes with stealth ability make them revealed 1-2 sec after they stand near you
i just dont want ppl to abuse stealth rather used it as it brakes the game .especially pu mesmer
In Conquest, the main issue w/ PvP is it makes your stealth skills last long enough that you can stealth from outside the enemy’s LOS, and then walk up to him for a nearly-instant mirrorblade-mod-gs3-mind wrack burst, which is enough to instagib zerker builds and do heavy damage to other builds.
However, in higher ranked games, PU seems to be necessary for mesmer to survive. If you watch the latest ESL, the mesmers on both teams were still getting farmed by thieves even with PU. But against anything less than a coordinated team, PU gives mesmers a crazy amount of survivability.
When we’re talking about WvW, I don’t really mind PU, except for the mesmers who take Dom/Chaos/Illusion for permastealth (with PU + the torch trait). They’re not really a threat, and they don’t accomplish anything but summon phantasms and camp stealth. It’s just another ineffectual build that rewards sloppy play.
In Conquest, the main issue w/ PvP is it makes your stealth skills last long enough that you can stealth from outside the enemy’s LOS, and then walk up to him for a nearly-instant mirrorblade-mod-gs3-mind wrack burst, which is enough to instagib zerker builds and do heavy damage to other builds.
this is why instagib from stealth should be deleted even for thieves. yes it should do huge dmg but get you 100-0 in 1 sec … NO NO NO .
for now its the main burst for mesmer.
but cause every class has huge burst lets w8 and see
In Conquest, the main issue w/ PvP is it makes your stealth skills last long enough that you can stealth from outside the enemy’s LOS, and then walk up to him for a nearly-instant mirrorblade-mod-gs3-mind wrack burst, which is enough to instagib zerker builds and do heavy damage to other builds.
this is why instagib from stealth should be deleted even for thieves. yes it should do huge dmg but get you 100-0 in 1 sec … NO NO NO .
for now its the main burst for mesmer.but cause every class has huge burst lets w8 and see
Your proposals however would just delete thieves from the game. You don’t like being bursted from stealth and feel the need to destroy it completely. I don’t much like being burst from stealth but then I WvW a lot and you can see it coming miles away because it’s more open.
What stealth needs is a true counter. Guards are getting a trap that reveals players that trigger it, that’s a step in the right direction but there needs to be more things like that. Not passive proc traits like engineer where you get lucky while hitting thin air.
A reminder to all. Shadow refuge is 5 pulses of stealth for 4s which gives about 11s of stealth and barely any cast time on 60s CD. Trained can give you16s of stealth on 48s CD. Granted you have to stay in the circle but it does give a lot more for surprising people.
A thief also has an almost monopoly on smoke fields which when they leap or blast give 3s of stealth (4 traited) and they generally do this 2-3 times to get more stealth.
Anyone saying mesmers have more stealth than thieves is being silly. A thief when they put in as much trait investment as memsers (technically less as they only need 2 traits, one major one minor) can perma stealth not just themselves but up to 4 other players too. No Mesmer can do that.
so just give thieves 2 – 3 seconds until revealed if not attacking
or make SR something else
i dont have problem with 4 sec stealth rather the longer ones like pu and SR
Wait we’re making special circumstances for an ill conceived and silly plan now? So we end up at the exact opposite scenario to what Anet wants which is all skills working as close as if not identically between PvP and PvE. Your idea is bad, you’re on a vendetta against all stealth, you should stop this.
Veil with 2s of stealth is (I’m going all out on this one) absolutely terrible. Look at all the WvW videos, go into WvW and you will see base veil needs to be chained in order to be worth using. That’s not skill, that’s poor design making multiple mesmers required for use.
In fact anyone willing to show me a place where veil is used seriously outside of WvW? I think I’ve only ever seen it in Arah when Mesmer elite was on CD and they had no thief in a record run, hardly in the scope of most players.
i dont have a vendetta i just dont like ppl abusing it
if i played versus power pu and because he couldnt bit me he just stayed in stealth for 16 sec i think . this is wrong
veil is great skill mainly use for tactic measured and not for abuse . saw gvg teams use it and its great
Yes and the common thing about veil in GvG and WvW is that they have to use multiple veils to stay stealthed. The terrible part is the enemy can see the veils though so they aren’t surprising anyone. All because it doesn’t last long enough.
Stealth needs real counter play. Skills that apply reveal if used at the right time. Give revue ant one that pulses reveal and has an upkeep cost. Make ranger pets like the dog track stealth targets and reveal on attack. Allow a traited shout bow warrior to reveal stealthed targets on shouts in their active range.
You know, real counter play where you can bring them out of stealth every now and then.
Your changes wouldn’t add counterplay to stealth. They’d make it so stealth is so bad you don’t even need counterplay.
I think all that needs to be done is that summoning a phantasm should count as a regular attack (i.e. break stealth + apply revealed).
And blocking/blinding/dodging an attack should also cause the attacker to drop out of stealth (but without the revealed debuff).
In Conquest, the main issue w/ PvP is it makes your stealth skills last long enough that you can stealth from outside the enemy’s LOS, and then walk up to him for a nearly-instant mirrorblade-mod-gs3-mind wrack burst, which is enough to instagib zerker builds and do heavy damage to other builds.
However, in higher ranked games, PU seems to be necessary for mesmer to survive. If you watch the latest ESL, the mesmers on both teams were still getting farmed by thieves even with PU. But against anything less than a coordinated team, PU gives mesmers a crazy amount of survivability.
thanks for sharing that, I thought the current changes would at least put Mesmers on equal footing with Thieves in higher ranking PvP tournaments, it’s sad to hear that thieves continue to own the class like before. With that, I would lean towards NOT making any changes to PU, as Mesmers will need every bit of help they can get in higher competitive PvP games.
Sanctum of Rall
Pain Train Choo [Choo]
Mind Smack – Mesmer
Pain Train Choo [Choo]
Mind Smack – Mesmer
Well I love the 100% stealth boost of course, But in pvp I’m so used to having such short stealth times I always happen to reveal my self before the stealth ends. Maybe a habit but I hopefully will break out of it soon.
Having faced a few more Power Mesmers using PU lately, I must say it is extremely frustrating.
The difference between Mesmer and Thief is that thief has to be on top of you in melee in order to burst. Mesmer doesn’t (you don’t need a 4 clone shatter to knock someone down several pegs) AND Mesmer’s burst is AOE. I see issues here with PU.
https://www.twitch.tv/thatcho
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
Having faced a few more Power Mesmers using PU lately, I must say it is extremely frustrating.
The difference between Mesmer and Thief is that thief has to be on top of you in melee in order to burst. Mesmer doesn’t (you don’t need a 4 clone shatter to knock someone down several pegs) AND Mesmer’s burst is AOE. I see issues here with PU.
indeed and that is the reason i suggested that when you create an illusion or if they attacked you get revealed
because if thief attack he get revealed so mesmer attack with illusion must be the same
Having faced a few more Power Mesmers using PU lately, I must say it is extremely frustrating.
The difference between Mesmer and Thief is that thief has to be on top of you in melee in order to burst. Mesmer doesn’t (you don’t need a 4 clone shatter to knock someone down several pegs) AND Mesmer’s burst is AOE. I see issues here with PU.
But that isn’t the fault of PU. PU being a longer duration stealth would allow for a melee range and stronger shatter with better escape, which is in contrast to a ranged shatter. If the Mesmer wasn’t using mental anguish too then it rolls back to what I said earlier. Perhaps mesmer burst needs looking at and that is the real problem.
Before the patch I had concerns about how a lot of the Mesmer traits seemed bursty and to make bursts faster and hit harder. Even if they revert PU to +1 second it won’t change people getting busted from stealth, it will still happen, people will still go 100-0. Only difference is survivability will be hit for running away, oh and veil becomes terrible again.
PU is definitely the best if you opt for 1v1. But I feel in teamfight, it is hardly OP.
I feel it will probably still not be taken as meta just like before patch.
Having faced a few more Power Mesmers using PU lately, I must say it is extremely frustrating.
The difference between Mesmer and Thief is that thief has to be on top of you in melee in order to burst. Mesmer doesn’t (you don’t need a 4 clone shatter to knock someone down several pegs) AND Mesmer’s burst is AOE. I see issues here with PU.
Anything which hits Thieves where it hurts is a good thing IMO. I can’t stand stealther classes. This includes not liking PU conceptually, mind you.
I was happy when picking up Gw2 that on a general level it seemed Stealth was a momentary escape tool here. Not the usual, a guarantee for initiative.
However due to trait mechanics (default stealth is usually fine), it ends up that way. And that’s blergh.
So IMO, remove any and all stealth-duration/-availability modifying traits entirely, then rebalance baseline trait a bit. Not much, stealth should not be a crucial mechanic for no one. Not thieves, not mesmers, not warriors or elementalists.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
I find it irritating that even though it should be blatantly obvious after this patch whether a Mesmer is using PU or not (huge difference in stealth durations), enemies playing other classes still complain about “PU cheese” or “I hate PU” when I’m not even using the kittening kitten trait. >:(
It seems as soon as you pick up a torch and decoy – bam, you’re a “PU Mesmer”, regardless of trait choice… so insulting.
So IMO, remove any and all stealth-duration/-availability modifying traits entirely, then rebalance baseline trait a bit. Not much, stealth should not be a crucial mechanic for no one. Not thieves, not mesmers, not warriors or elementalists.
Ironically enough, the recent changes to Acrobatics can be argued to make stealth more crucial on Thieves. Meanwhile, certain Thief players (myself included) have
always wanted to see the divide between Shadow Arts and Acrobatics closed.
Go figure. Anet logic.
Now, as for the actual subject here? Here’s the truth in my eyes:
- Folk are always going to have “concerns” regarding stealth in games.
- Other folk love the “sneaky” archetype
- MMO makers probably aren’t going to stop coding some kind of stealth into their games.
- I’d personally say PU is fine. Sure, the durations are pretty hectic now … but look at some of the base durations on Mesmer stealth abilities. For example, Veil and MI are pretty darned low-duration for their cooldowns. Especially Veil.
Not to mention that the boons got watered down months ago.
(As an aside, I still think it’s pretty bonkers that our “Elite” stealth on Mesmers has an actual target limit; while Veil’s utility self can cloak whole posses … WTKitten?)
Malegryne (Sylvari Mesmer), Lannka (Asura Thief) – Ferguson’s Crossing: [PRD/BRB/OMFG]
Other 80s: Any but Warrior
Other 80s: Any but Warrior
(edited by Advent.6193)
I take issue with it just because it’s basically building a better thief; the mesmer currently had better stealth uptime than the thief (permanent stealth uptime on the thief is no longer possible), in-stealth burst, long-ranged options, and overall subtantially more group utility. The biggest issue I see with the current trait setup for PU is that there’s basically no reason to leave stealth; damage from shatters if cast from range and phantasms is fairly high and doesn’t cause any kind of revealed effects or punish the mesmer for camping stealth, while also providing a lot of boon benefits. At least with the thief, there is a need to make a judgement of when to leave stealth and attack, and the durations are much shorter with a much higher opportunity cost. They may still pack better reset potential, but they’re not doing any damage or are cluttering up the battlefield in the meantime.
I’d probably have to say that disabling shatters while under the effects of stealth from a mesmer (as thief/mesmer stealth is treated differently by the game, so the distinction already exists) would probably be a good place to start. This makes PU/Phantasm builds still maintain potency and benefits of stealth and reset potential, but will require them, like thieves, to leave stealth (or not use it at all) to actually come out in the open (sort of, considering the clones/distractions :P) to truly kill people and burst them down.
Just my two cents.
Formal Thief Elite Spec proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
I don’t want to see any restrictions on using shatters or skills in stealth because it has been absolutely fine without this pre patch.
It would seriously hurt non-PU builds that use stealth, and make things like torch almost useless. For example prestige, mirror blade blink into F1 would be impossible – and it is a pretty high risk move anyway blowing key cooldowns for surprise burst.
One thing that adds to the problem right now is the conditional cooldown effect of the torch trait – which synergises with and encourages camping in stealth for a long time. I think this trait should be changed back to a flat 20% cooldown reduction on the torch.
Secondly Anet need to decide what they want PU to be – a source of boons, or extended stealth.
I personally think given that Chaos is the “boon line” anyway, it makes sense to have PU be a different way of booning yourself up – through stealth rather than interrupt or shattering.
So the stealth duration should either be removed entirely, or reduced to +1 second as in the past. Individual skills like veil can be fixed separately.
I also suggest changing the boon pool – remove aegis.
Regarding damage from stealth – that should be dealt with separately because damage is too high from every class – either by shaving amulets or changing damage formulas – then unless you are a tissue paper thief you should never get one shot from a stealth burst.
PU is great now. It fits the mesmer theme perfectly. I feel more like a mesmer now than I ever did before.
Remember when Chaotic Dampening was nerfed by 60%, and everyone agreed that that was a knee-jerk reaction to a trait that was strong but didn’t warrant that big of a nerf?
Changing PU back to 1 second (from 3 seconds) is a 66% reduction, or even an 80% nerf in the case of MI. That would be an even larger change. Hopefully this puts it into perspective.
Remember when Chaotic Dampening was nerfed by 60%, and everyone agreed that that was a knee-jerk reaction to a trait that was strong but didn’t warrant that big of a nerf?
Changing PU back to 1 second (from 3 seconds) is a 66% reduction, or even an 80% nerf in the case of MI. That would be an even larger change. Hopefully this puts it into perspective.
Also to put it into perspective, the devs obviously thought that as a GM trait it was lacking, hence the buff to stealth duration in the update.
The only way I would accept a nerf to it would be making it +2s. This keeps the current veil stealth time, shaves torch and decoy stealth down by 33% and MI by 60%, MI at 7s is plenty of time imo. Course changing might to at least vigor or stab would also go a long way to help.
It also has the nice side effect of making most Mesmer stealth in the four to five second bracket which means it’s easier to gauge unless they use the elite which is exceptionally obvious when it’s being cast.
(edited by apharma.3741)
Changing PU back to 1 second (from 3 seconds) is a 66% reduction, or even an 80% nerf in the case of MI. That would be an even larger change. Hopefully this puts it into perspective.
Except people (including some Mesmers) were already complaining about PU before the patch, calling it cheese, etc. There really wasn’t a justification to buff it in the first place. Hopefully this puts it into perspective.
I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
I think all that needs to be done is that summoning a phantasm should count as a regular attack (i.e. break stealth + apply revealed).
And blocking/blinding/dodging an attack should also cause the attacker to drop out of stealth (but without the revealed debuff).
but if thief attacks you and you have block aegis etc he is not revealed too
Changing PU back to 1 second (from 3 seconds) is a 66% reduction, or even an 80% nerf in the case of MI. That would be an even larger change. Hopefully this puts it into perspective.
Except people (including some Mesmers) were already complaining about PU before the patch, calling it cheese, etc. There really wasn’t a justification to buff it in the first place. Hopefully this puts it into perspective.
Not entirely true. They complained mainly about that one clone death condition PU build mostly. Reason being it was so low risk and high reward and generally a complete pita to fight when roaming in WvW. To the point the general advise was “just walk away, they’ll never catch you”.
The original PU used to be +1 second but also gave aegis, regen and protection only. This was way too defensive and so was nerfed by adding swiftness and might into the mix. This watered it down to the point most power players looked for defence elsewhere but the clone death build didn’t need to as it was sufficient still.
Fast forward to now and there are no more clone death conditions, in fact you can just cleave away at mesmers so long as you don’t have torment and confusion on you with little to no downside.
So why not remove the +duration, restore the old boons, buff Veil duration specifically and change the Torch trait to 20% flat reduction?
Changing PU back to 1 second (from 3 seconds) is a 66% reduction, or even an 80% nerf in the case of MI. That would be an even larger change. Hopefully this puts it into perspective.
Except people (including some Mesmers) were already complaining about PU before the patch, calling it cheese, etc. There really wasn’t a justification to buff it in the first place. Hopefully this puts it into perspective.
PU was really only called cheese when looked at in a 1v1 dueling/roaming scenario, which isn’t even a real gamemode that this game is balanced around so it should be a moot point. Lots of people call anything having to do with stealth cheese, and those same people usually have terrible ideas to fix it. I’ve heard, make stealth last 2 seconds max, make it impossible to break stealth(can’t attack while stealthed basically), auto reveal yourself whenever you’re near an enemy, and basically just a ton of different ways of saying “I wish stealth either had incredibly easy counterplay that all classes had access to, or was so weak you don’t even need counterplay to stop it”.
PU was really only called cheese when looked at in a 1v1 dueling/roaming scenario, which isn’t even a real gamemode that this game is balanced around so it should be a moot point. Lots of people call anything having to do with stealth cheese, and those same people usually have terrible ideas to fix it. I’ve heard, make stealth last 2 seconds max, make it impossible to break stealth(can’t attack while stealthed basically), auto reveal yourself whenever you’re near an enemy, and basically just a ton of different ways of saying “I wish stealth either had incredibly easy counterplay that all classes had access to, or was so weak you don’t even need counterplay to stop it”.
Mostly true (except at the beginning, as noted by others). But it was still a reasonably popular trait choice pre-patch (not optimal, but forgiving) that lacked any real justification for a buff.
You’ll note that my comment was in response to someone framing the notion of putting the stealth duration back where it was, when the trait was fine, was an “omfg that’s a 66% nerf!” It wasn’t a call to gut stealth.
I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
(edited by Choppy.4183)
PU was really only called cheese when looked at in a 1v1 dueling/roaming scenario, which isn’t even a real gamemode that this game is balanced around so it should be a moot point. Lots of people call anything having to do with stealth cheese, and those same people usually have terrible ideas to fix it. I’ve heard, make stealth last 2 seconds max, make it impossible to break stealth(can’t attack while stealthed basically), auto reveal yourself whenever you’re near an enemy, and basically just a ton of different ways of saying “I wish stealth either had incredibly easy counterplay that all classes had access to, or was so weak you don’t even need counterplay to stop it”.
Mostly true (except at the beginning, as noted by others). But it was still a reasonably popular trait choice pre-patch (not optimal, but forgiving) that lacked any real justification for a buff.
You’ll note that my comment was in response to someone framing the notion of putting the stealth duration back where it was, when the trait was fine, was an “omfg that’s a 66% nerf!” It wasn’t a call to gut stealth.
If it were set back to the base +1 second and the boons reverted to only include the original 3, it’d be better than nothing, but I still don’t think it is OP in its current iteration. It actually feels like a GM trait now to me and there is for once real merit to all the GM traits in the chaos line. Each is viable and unique. The longer duration helps mesmers with positioning as well as grants a large array of unique boons(Which synergizes well with Chaotic Persistence) and IMO helps reduce the necessity of Blink. Re-positioning in a team fight with the pre-patch PU usually meant Stealth then Blink to insure you shake off any other zerkers targeting you. With the increased duration you no longer need to use blink to re-position effectively.
Not to mention stealth has always had clear disadvantages in all the game modes. In PvE it just means things aren’t dying quickly and is best used for bypassing things altogether. In SPvP, longer stealth duration means a longer period of time where you aren’t holding a point or drawing the focus of the enemy. In WvW, stealth doesn’t protect you from cleave and AoEs so you still need to be very aware of your position, even if they can’t see you.
Mostly true (except at the beginning, as noted by others). But it was still a reasonably popular trait choice pre-patch (not optimal, but forgiving) that lacked any real justification for a buff.
You really can’t compare pre-patch and post-patch traits. Anyway, lots of other traits considered ‘strong’ pre-patch were buffed too.
Meditation traits on Guardian were all rolled into a single GM. However, medi guard was already strong before the patch. Cantrips on Ele, already used by like 90% of the Ele population, also had their traits combined into one.
Should we then nerf the Guardian medi trait because medi guard was already good before the patch and so it ’doesn’t deserve a buff’? Of course not! You can’t just make that kind of comparison. It shouldn’t even factor into the decision at all.
You really can’t compare pre-patch and post-patch traits. Anyway, lots of other traits considered ‘strong’ pre-patch were buffed too.
Meditation traits on Guardian were all rolled into a single GM. However, medi guard was already strong before the patch. Cantrips on Ele, already used by like 90% of the Ele population, also had their traits combined into one.
Should we then nerf the Guardian medi trait because medi guard was already good before the patch and so it ’doesn’t deserve a buff’? Of course not! You can’t just make that kind of comparison. It shouldn’t even factor into the decision at all.
Isn’t that exactly what you did with your nerf comment? Compare pre-patch with post-patch? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying mesmers are a broken class or anything, or that other classes don’t have things that are out of hand. I’m also not saying PU should go back to how it was because it was fine before. I’m saying the PU of today is out of hand, and the PU of yesterday wouldn’t be.
The PU stealth buff is just way too high now. Mesmers have retained the slippery mechanics they had before, but are now, basically, better at stealth than thieves. Plus you have aoe bursts on short cooldowns.
There’s just not a lot of risk in mesmer play at the moment, especially with a trait like PU. And that compounds as you add additional mesmers to the equation.
@Necrotize
Names like Grandmaster and Master Traits don’t really mean anything now that we get everything in a trait line. PU just before the patch, not the original, was still a trait that was selected by some mesmers and largely decried in duel scenarios.
I agree that Anet made some strange choices when deciding what to buff and what not to buff (across all classes), but the pre-patch PU wasn’t garbage and so the notion of returning to it would hardly be an example of a heavy Nerfbat.
I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
(edited by Choppy.4183)
Isn’t that exactly what you did with your nerf comment? Compare pre-patch with post-patch?
No…? I don’t see at all how my comment was comparing the state of Mesmers pre and post patch.
Here I quoted it:
Remember when Chaotic Dampening was nerfed by 60%, and everyone agreed that that was a knee-jerk reaction to a trait that was strong but didn’t warrant that big of a nerf?
Changing PU back to 1 second (from 3 seconds) is a 66% reduction, or even an 80% nerf in the case of MI. That would be an even larger change. Hopefully this puts it into perspective.
Edit: I compared it to 1 second because people were saying to change (revert) the skill to +1 second of stealth.
To be even clearer I meant that just because a trait is strong before the patch, doesn’t mean it is still strong after.
(edited by Sunflowers.1729)
Yeah but staff trait and PU are two entirely different things.
PU was fine, if not already powerful enough before the patch. Now it is ridiculously strong.
Staff trait is currently much weaker than pre patch with a flat 20% cooldown.
Names like Grandmaster and Master Traits don’t really mean anything now that we get everything in a trait line.
I do wish you and everyone else that says this would clue themselves up a little.
Arena net has said grandmaster traits are supposed to be build defining. This is why generally there are very different grandmasters in all lines that, while they may follow a theme (defence, healing, damage, control etc) they work differently and will affect your playing as such.
I believe they mentioned it in the 3 hour AMA on initial specialisations or maybe before hand. I do know they said in regard to the engineers burn GM trait “There’s that build defining trait” as a throw back to this idea.
Ido realise they may not be entirely successful in implementation but it is the intention. GM traits are supposed to be about more than just a trait pick in a line.
I do wish you and everyone else that says this would clue themselves up a little.
Arena net has said grandmaster traits are supposed to be build defining. This is why generally there are very different grandmasters in all lines that, while they may follow a theme (defence, healing, damage, control etc) they work differently and will affect your playing as such.
I believe they mentioned it in the 3 hour AMA on initial specialisations or maybe before hand. I do know they said in regard to the engineers burn GM trait “There’s that build defining trait” as a throw back to this idea.
Ido realise they may not be entirely successful in implementation but it is the intention. GM traits are supposed to be about more than just a trait pick in a line.
We say it because it’s true. Whatever Anets intent, a quick survey of the traits across the classes will show a pretty mixed bag in terms of where “build defining” traits live. There are even a few lines that have the best, or most build defining, sitting in Adept.
And, frankly, even if they followed through with that intent, it would have exactly zero relevance to the question of whether PU needs to be dialed back. “Build defining” isn’t a free pass on the OP Express.
I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
(edited by Choppy.4183)
I do wish you and everyone else that says this would clue themselves up a little.
Arena net has said grandmaster traits are supposed to be build defining. This is why generally there are very different grandmasters in all lines that, while they may follow a theme (defence, healing, damage, control etc) they work differently and will affect your playing as such.
I believe they mentioned it in the 3 hour AMA on initial specialisations or maybe before hand. I do know they said in regard to the engineers burn GM trait “There’s that build defining trait” as a throw back to this idea.
Ido realise they may not be entirely successful in implementation but it is the intention. GM traits are supposed to be about more than just a trait pick in a line.
We say it because it’s true. Whatever Anets intent, a quick survey of the traits across the classes will show a pretty mixed bag in terms of where “build defining” traits live. There are even a few lines that have the best, or most build defining, sitting in Adept.
And, frankly, even if they followed through with that intent, it would have exactly zero relevance to the question of whether PU needs to be dialed back. “Build defining” isn’t a free pass on the OP Express.
No, but it does mean that the GM traits are supposed to be strong which is what the whole discussion is about.