Guild Wars 2

Mantra of Distraction. But it’s good with MoF too.

Simonoly.4352:

Duellist’s Discipline which still remains a really odd trait that will only really get use from, I’m not sure….full dire Mesmers with low crit chance?

A common misconception, though I’m not sure why it’s still around.
Phantasmal Fury does exactly the same thing whether you have lots of precision or not. It’s always exactly +20% crit chance. Sharper Images applies bleed on every crit, so Phantasmal Fury is exactly a 20% chance to bleed on every iDuelist hit, unless your personal precision takes you over 80% crit chance (not easy, even full Rampagers/Assassins doesn’t quite do it).

So DD gives a 33% chance of bleed, PF gives a 20% chance on bleed. DD gives more bleed.
But DD also has a recharge component, while PF amplifies physical damage.

denis.9487:

The stealth duration was not the issue. I believe the fraction of seconds will not apply a boon it rounds down.

Please stop saying boon when you mean buff. Boons can be converted and stolen, stealth is not a boon, it is a buff.

And fractions of seconds matter. As I said I already tested this.

Decoy and prestige both give 4.5 seconds now instead of 6. I used them both at the same time and I got 9 seconds of stealth. If fractions of seconds did not matter I would have received only 8 seconds of stealth.

Daniel Handler.4816:

denis.9487:

The stealth duration was not the issue. I believe the fraction of seconds will not apply a boon it rounds down.

Please stop saying boon when you mean buff. Boons can be converted and stolen, stealth is not a boon, it is a buff.

And fractions of seconds matter. As I said I already tested this.

Decoy and prestige both give 4.5 seconds now instead of 6. I used them both at the same time and I got 9 seconds of stealth. If fractions of seconds did not matter I would have received only 8 seconds of stealth.

I have no idea what you are rambling about. With pu you get random boons whether they can be stolen corrupted or just go away it gives the same amount pre patch. I’m glad you keep stating you can count though. The issue again is with boons not stealth time earlier in post.

Yay back to thief bait, forgot to record it but last match I’d get two shot by the thief in the match during each 1v1 with them. Perhaps the fact out of ten matches tonight since the patch yesterday I have won three might show the PU trait was very important to sustain

I think Denis is referring to the boons you get in stealth.

Now i almost never use PU, so i may be wrong… With the 6 seconds we were getting from the prestige we would get 7 random boons (one immediately on activation then one every second, right?). With the nerf reducing its duration to 4.5 seconds, are we now getting 5 or 6 boons over the duration of the stealth? Does that .5 second get you the extra boon?

I’ll be logging in a bit later, ill test it if no one else has.

Mikkel.8427:

I think Denis is referring to the boons you get in stealth.

Now i almost never use PU, so i may be wrong… With the 6 seconds we were getting from the prestige we would get 7 random boons (one immediately on activation then one every second, right?). With the nerf reducing its duration to 4.5 seconds, are we now getting 5 or 6 boons over the duration of the stealth? Does that .5 second get you the extra boon?

I’ll be logging in a bit later, ill test it if no one else has.

Just tested. 4.5 gives you 5 ticks of the boons.

Why do people write things on forums without testing them first?

Thanks for testing. Was posted earlier I am not at computer.

atlrising.5134:

Land of Cheese.2584:

Since boons don’t last fractional seconds, and Anet’s code rounds down, the “new PU” is exactly the same as the old PU in duration with the exception of adding 2 seconds to Mass Invisibility rather than the 1 second of yore.

PU has the following impacts:
Decoy: From 3 seconds to 4 seconds (50% of 3 is 1.5, 1.5 rounded down is 1).
Veil: From 2 seconds to 3 seconds (50% of 2 is 1, no rounding applied).
The Prestige: From 3 seconds to 4 seconds (50% of 3 is 1.5, rounded down is 1).
Mass Invisibility: From 5 seconds to 7 seconds (50% of 5 is 2.5, rounded down is 2).

The effect of this change, at least from a stealth perspective, is put PU, basically, exactly where it was before the big trait revamp. It is, once again, not worth using. It’s gone the way of Fiery Greatsword, Ice Bow, and any other “OP” treat players have enjoyed that’s been nerfed into oblivion.

I forgot all about that in my video but your right, boons dont last half seconds.

What I was referring to.

Heres the thing PU fell in a defensive trait line to help Mesmer’s improve their sustain during fights. We could challenge a thief 1v1 and it was about a 50/50 chance we would win. This is gone now, with the current PU nerf in place unless they adjust the stealth increase to at least 65% I would stay away from any fight that involves a huge amount of sustainability.

With the nerf of PU mesmers who could roam freely now must hold hands with their teammates and prey that their teammates can prop them up. I can honestly tell you at the current 50% I would not even consider PU as a candidate for a grandmaster trait and without it set properly around 60-65% Mass invisibility is not an efficient elite and is no longer worth the 80 second cd.

denis.9487:

Thanks for testing. Was posted earlier I am not at computer.

Your welcome. However I completely disagree with you saying that the stealth duration does not matter.

The stealth duration was everything. The boons were dropped to a 1 in 5 chance. The protection duration for most skills is now limited to a 2 in 5 chance on the first tick(as every 15 seconds gaining regen gains you protection). After that there is a 1 in 5 chance of gaining the boon. Having 3 ticks of protection is around 2%. What this means is that for truly meaningful protection uptime you should take chaotic dampening. Which is intended. If you want meaningful regen uptime take the inspiration tree. If you want meaningful aegis take staff. If you want meaningful swiftness take signet of inspiration/focus. If you want meaningful might take shattered strength in the illusion tree.

If you wanted meaningful duration on the boons you received you should have gone for bountiful disillusionment. PU boons are meant to augment other existing traits. The reason it is there is for the stealth.

Max duration without pu is 20 seconds
with: 30 seconds (almost like it increased it by 50%)
with pu+ alacrity: max is 39+, having difficulty calculating beyond that I know you can at least reach 39 seconds.

My assumption at this point is that you can reach 45 continuous seconds. But that perma continuous steath is no longer possible even with alacrity. (It was and they had nerfed alacrity once partially to deal with it). The nerf didn’t solve the problem so they seemed to go to the source.

Here is what my last ten matches looks like. I finished on top once, I am typically third and the rest of the times at the bottom of the list. Since the nerf I spend most of my time at extremely low HP since I cant stealth to get away.

Just so you know my average placement pre patch yesterday was third. Today has been once at the time and rest at the bottom.

atlrising.5134:

Here is what my last ten matches looks like. I finished on top once, I am typically third and the rest of the times at the bottom of the list. Since the nerf I spend most of my time at extremely low HP since I cant stealth to get away.

I don’t want to be that guy, but do you think this might be indicative of your base ability to play the class?

You are talking about a difference between 4.5 and 6 seconds. Why you needed 1.5 additional seconds to position yourself is something you should ask yourself. And once you find this answer you should focus on improving yourself.

Also the list means nothing, as the most helpful of bunkers will never rank first.

PU condi mesmers in pvp would rank on such lists below sword/dagger thieves, despite the fact they spent much more time in stealth.

also in general match length is correlated to quality of play. I see no helpful data coming from matches that take less than 7 minutes.

atlrising.5134:

Here is what my last ten matches looks like. I finished on top once, I am typically third and the rest of the times at the bottom of the list. Since the nerf I spend most of my time at extremely low HP since I cant stealth to get away.

And here’s my last 10 matches. I guess we can conclude from this that anecdotal evidence is totally meaningless?

Daniel Handler.4816:

denis.9487:

Thanks for testing. Was posted earlier I am not at computer.

Your welcome. However I completely disagree with you saying that the stealth duration does not matter.

The stealth duration was everything. The boons were dropped to a 1 in 5 chance. The protection duration for most skills is now limited to a 2 in 5 chance on the first tick(as every 15 seconds gaining regen gains you protection). After that there is a 1 in 5 chance of gaining the boon. Having 3 ticks of protection is around 2%. What this means is that for truly meaningful protection uptime you should take chaotic dampening. Which is intended. If you want meaningful regen uptime take the inspiration tree. If you want meaningful aegis take staff. If you want meaningful swiftness take signet of inspiration/focus. If you want meaningful might take shattered strength in the illusion tree.

If you wanted meaningful duration on the boons you received you should have gone for bountiful disillusionment. PU boons are meant to augment other existing traits. The reason it is there is for the stealth.

Max duration without pu is 20 seconds
with: 30 seconds (almost like it increased it by 50%)
with pu+ alacrity: max is 39+, having difficulty calculating beyond that I know you can at least reach 39 seconds.

My assumption at this point is that you can reach 45 continuous seconds. But that perma continuous steath is no longer possible even with alacrity. (It was and they had nerfed alacrity once partially to deal with it). The nerf didn’t solve the problem so they seemed to go to the source.

I think we crossed paths. I am not advocating the boons are better. I was under the assumption fractions of a second do not count.

Prismatic Understanding nerf is uncalled for!!! don’t compare Mesmer stealth to thief stealth. I am very upset In this nerf! it made Mesmer so fun and unique to play. This honestly makes me not want to play GW2 ever again! I hate how anet has everyone playing the same build because they nerfed all the other options to where it would suck to use them. now it sucks to use Prismatic Understanding!!!! please anet, change it back to 100% stealth you will make a lot of people happy!

I am bitter since post trait patch we are on a downward spiral. Just like portal chrono will be the newest item to nerf us. I just wish they could balance better.

denis.9487:

Daniel Handler.4816:

denis.9487:

Thanks for testing. Was posted earlier I am not at computer.

Your welcome. However I completely disagree with you saying that the stealth duration does not matter.

The stealth duration was everything. The boons were dropped to a 1 in 5 chance. The protection duration for most skills is now limited to a 2 in 5 chance on the first tick(as every 15 seconds gaining regen gains you protection). After that there is a 1 in 5 chance of gaining the boon. Having 3 ticks of protection is around 2%. What this means is that for truly meaningful protection uptime you should take chaotic dampening. Which is intended. If you want meaningful regen uptime take the inspiration tree. If you want meaningful aegis take staff. If you want meaningful swiftness take signet of inspiration/focus. If you want meaningful might take shattered strength in the illusion tree.

If you wanted meaningful duration on the boons you received you should have gone for bountiful disillusionment. PU boons are meant to augment other existing traits. The reason it is there is for the stealth.

Max duration without pu is 20 seconds
with: 30 seconds (almost like it increased it by 50%)
with pu+ alacrity: max is 39+, having difficulty calculating beyond that I know you can at least reach 39 seconds.

My assumption at this point is that you can reach 45 continuous seconds. But that perma continuous steath is no longer possible even with alacrity. (It was and they had nerfed alacrity once partially to deal with it). The nerf didn’t solve the problem so they seemed to go to the source.

I think we crossed paths. I am not advocating the boons are better. I was under the assumption fractions of a second do not count.

Unfortunately we may have.

I must saw though that fractions of a second only count towards stealth duration. They do not help you will the interval at which you receive boons.

So before with the 10 second mass invis you would receive 11 boons.
Now with the 7.5 second mass invis you receive 8 boons.

If fractions of a second had mattered for the boon application interval you would receive 12 and 9 boons respectively from the different versions. The point I had attempted to impress is that the loss of 2-3 ticks over the orginal made no differences in the grand scheme of boon uptime, as such uptime has always required the use of other traits.

Fay.2357:

atlrising.5134:

Here is what my last ten matches looks like. I finished on top once, I am typically third and the rest of the times at the bottom of the list. Since the nerf I spend most of my time at extremely low HP since I cant stealth to get away.

And here’s my last 10 matches. I guess we can conclude from this that anecdotal evidence is totally meaningless?

Not sure but it looks like you have not played since the patch rolled out.

atlrising.5134:

Fay.2357:

atlrising.5134:

Here is what my last ten matches looks like. I finished on top once, I am typically third and the rest of the times at the bottom of the list. Since the nerf I spend most of my time at extremely low HP since I cant stealth to get away.

And here’s my last 10 matches. I guess we can conclude from this that anecdotal evidence is totally meaningless?

Not sure but it looks like you have not played since the patch rolled out.

That match in Foefire that timed out was against me. It was definitely after the update. I was running a necro condi build to test out the scepter changes.

Mikkel.8427:

atlrising.5134:

Fay.2357:

atlrising.5134:

Here is what my last ten matches looks like. I finished on top once, I am typically third and the rest of the times at the bottom of the list. Since the nerf I spend most of my time at extremely low HP since I cant stealth to get away.

And here’s my last 10 matches. I guess we can conclude from this that anecdotal evidence is totally meaningless?

Not sure but it looks like you have not played since the patch rolled out.

That match in Foefire that timed out was against me. It was definitely after the update. I was running a necro condi build to test out the scepter changes.

Was an awesome match btw. Certainly helped me reaffirm my conviction that the pDisenchanter isn’t a good skill unfortunately :-/

Funny part is a dev wont come on this forum currently because they know they will get chewed out for pigeonholing Mesmers into a single build. This game lacks build diversity because every time a class gets it, someone has a kitten fit and they nerf it.

atlrising.5134:

Funny part is a dev wont come on this forum currently because they know they will get chewed out for pigeonholing Mesmers into a single build. This game lacks build diversity because every time a class gets it, someone has a kitten fit and they nerf it.

The amusing thing is that we know for a fact that Geesus, our lord and savior, actually reads this forum regularly. You’re so wrong it’s comical.

Fay.2357:

atlrising.5134:

Funny part is a dev wont come on this forum currently because they know they will get chewed out for pigeonholing Mesmers into a single build. This game lacks build diversity because every time a class gets it, someone has a kitten fit and they nerf it.

The amusing thing is that we know for a fact that Geesus, our lord and savior, actually reads this forum regularly. You’re so wrong it’s comical.

There is nothing funny about what either of you claim is funny. But what is troublesome is the assertion that developers would ever feel uncomfortable communicating with us. We as a community should be poised enough to deal with nerfs by now without resulting to anger.

I shouldn’t feel the need to log out of matches because I cant do anything.

atlrising.5134:

I shouldn’t feel the need to log out of matches because I cant do anything.

This is correct, you shouldn’t feel that. Mesmer is still more than capable of winning if you’re good at the class.

atlrising.5134:

I shouldn’t feel the need to log out of matches because I cant do anything.

I’m having a really hard time empathizing with you… Mesmer is still (very) strong in PvP. We have the upper hand in most small engagements, even w/o PU.

Is it fair to say that most PU Mesmers could settle if PU was bumped back up to say 65% instead of the current 50%?

atlrising.5134:

Is it fair to say that most PU Mesmers could settle if PU was bumped back up to say 65% instead of the current 50%?

Idk, I’m doing fine as is…

PopeUrban.2578:

Here’s the deal.

PU mesmer was a better thief than thief. That was the primary problem. When the “class with some stealth” became better at both utilizing and providing stealth than “the stealth class”

You’ve discussed thief in your video without also recognizing the fact that thieves have zero sustain, zero ability to actually deal damage while stealthed, and are completely shut down defensively when revealed in the case of most stealth builds.

Mesmers are still relevant. You’ve still got stellar burst, good CC, and sustain the thief would literally give up a weapon set for.

Take it from a thief, they don’t care how much you complain when they hit something that hard. It has happenned to thieves over and over since launch. It’s 50%, and it’s probably going to stay at 50%

I find this quote very telling. It provides a good cross-section of belief among the players but I would also say that it outlines all the misconceptions: It states the expected comments but many of those comments are also clearly incorrect assumptions once you put them to the test.

Yes, the summer’s change was to bring about a better balance between thieves and mesmers as stealthing classes. In hindsight it would have been better to bring them closer together in other ways than just pushing the mesmer up only to bring it back down again.

The assumption the quote rides on would be that thieves are more dependent upon their stealth than mesmers (similar to comments a mesmer would lunge at engineers or rangers). The problem is that the summer-fling mesmer never had more stealth than thieves, better burst, more CC or better sustain. All of that incorrect.

Classes have one build at a time:

Very much like the thief, the mesmer can pick some dimensions of that based on builds – but while the power builds do not have more sustain, the condition builds does not have better burst or CC. In fact, the power builds generally have low sustain and any measure you can take to balance that out (through other weapon combinations etc., can also be done on thieves where S/D offer a more sustained style than D/P, even though it is never a tanky character same as how power mesmers always remain somewhat glassy).

The condi builds never had any particular burst or CC, that has been the balancing point of condi mesmer since forever (even if it admittedly isn’t a very good balancing point). The sustain there comes from the statbase and that is afforded to any condi-player, where even thieves can go a tanky full condi build with a fair amount of stealth-and-tick. The same goes for rangers and engineers even if they may have less stealth and more escapes or immunities. At least, that’s how mesmers perceive them.

Classes rather than builds or stats:

That’s a funny thing with all the complaints about various classes in the summer patch and the reactions afterwards, since almost all classes gained some build that exceeds into the extraordinary. It almost feels as most of the complaints come from players who have not updated their builds to capitalize on the changes (possibly because they don’t want to “cheese” it) yet the complaints often center around classes rather than stats or builds.

They also center around classes while some classes seem to spend more time pointing the fingers at others or being unhappy with their position. Like the thief talking about how nerfed the thieves are or the warrior and necro communities talking about how their damage have dropped – even though evisc and KS builds easily capitalize just as much on the stat changes as any other bursty builds, while the same can be said about any shroud-burst build whether it’s power or hybrid. That goes to show how they were in better positions before, rather than worse positions now.

Why the common class objections are odd:

In light of that, most of this feels more like a case of who yells the loudest than any sensible discussion about actual balance. Everyone has more burst, less defense (at least in offensive gear) and quicker condition application. That’s not a mesmer issue even if the class became trendy in that setting.

So while the summer’s mesmer stealth certainly became an issue, that had to be dealt with, and we began to see alot of mesmers while the situation undoubtedly became salty: it wasn’t because there is some favourable burst, sustain or control in the class and it is quite baffling that we should accept it on thieves (or other classes) because that has been the norm before. It’s easily as cancerous there, and maybe the way forward is not to stack more reveals but to snag 25% general uptime off the thieves as well and cap refuge at 7.5s too. At least that’s a point to consider in the discussion even if it isn’t a sincere suggestion.

Edit: I just watched the video :s

Wonder if I start posting matches since the patch and how important the stealth was to survival would get their heads out of their kitten.

problem is everyone thinks chrono will be the fix but give them 24 hours after release and they will have that nerfed too. We need to be giving them hell now instead of later.

Subversion.2580:

PopeUrban.2578:

Here’s the deal.

PU mesmer was a better thief than thief. That was the primary problem. When the “class with some stealth” became better at both utilizing and providing stealth than “the stealth class”

You’ve discussed thief in your video without also recognizing the fact that thieves have zero sustain, zero ability to actually deal damage while stealthed, and are completely shut down defensively when revealed in the case of most stealth builds.

Mesmers are still relevant. You’ve still got stellar burst, good CC, and sustain the thief would literally give up a weapon set for.

Take it from a thief, they don’t care how much you complain when they hit something that hard. It has happenned to thieves over and over since launch. It’s 50%, and it’s probably going to stay at 50%

I find this quote very telling. It provides a good cross-section of belief among the players but I would also say that it outlines all the misconceptions: It states the expected comments but many of those comments are also clearly incorrect assumptions once you put them to the test.

Yes, the summer’s change was to bring about a better balance between thieves and mesmers as stealthing classes. In hindsight it would have been better to bring them closer together in other ways than just pushing the mesmer up only to bring it back down again.

The assumption the quote rides on would be that thieves are more dependent upon their stealth than mesmers (similar to comments a mesmer would lunge at engineers or rangers). The problem is that the summer-fling mesmer never had more stealth than thieves, better burst, more CC or better sustain. All of that incorrect.

Classes have one build at a time:

Very much like the thief, the mesmer can pick some dimensions of that based on builds – but while the power builds do not have more sustain, the condition builds does not have better burst or CC. In fact, the power builds generally have low sustain and any measure you can take to balance that out (through other weapon combinations etc., can also be done on thieves where S/D offer a more sustained style than D/P, even though it is never a tanky character same as how power mesmers always remain somewhat glassy).

The condi builds never had any particular burst or CC, that has been the balancing point of condi mesmer since forever (even if it admittedly isn’t a very good balancing point). The sustain there comes from the statbase and that is afforded to any condi-player, where even thieves can go a tanky full condi build with a fair amount of stealth-and-tick. The same goes for rangers and engineers even if they may have less stealth and more escapes or immunities. At least, that’s how mesmers perceive them.

Classes rather than builds or stats:

That’s a funny thing with all the complaints about various classes in the summer patch and the reactions afterwards, since almost all classes gained some build that exceeds into the extraordinary. It almost feels as most of the complaints come from players who have not updated their builds to capitalize on the changes (possibly because they don’t want to “cheese” it) yet the complaints often center around classes rather than stats or builds.

They also center around classes while some classes seem to spend more time pointing the fingers at others or being unhappy with their position. Like the thief talking about how nerfed the thieves are or the warrior and necro communities talking about how their damage have dropped – even though evisc and KS builds easily capitalize just as much on the stat changes as any other bursty builds, while the same can be said about any shroud-burst build whether it’s power or hybrid. That goes to show how they were in better positions before, rather than worse positions now.

Why the common class objections are odd:

In light of that, most of this feels more like a case of who yells the loudest than any sensible discussion about actual balance. Everyone has more burst, less defense (at least in offensive gear) and quicker condition application. That’s not a mesmer issue even if the class became trendy in that setting.

So while the summer’s mesmer stealth certainly became an issue, that had to be dealt with, and we began to see alot of mesmers while the situation undoubtedly became salty: it wasn’t because there is some favourable burst, sustain or control in the class and it is quite baffling that we should accept it on thieves (or other classes) because that has been the norm before. It’s easily as cancerous there, and maybe the way forward is not to stack more reveals but to snag 25% general uptime off the thieves as well and cap refuge at 7.5s too. At least that’s a point to consider in the discussion even if it isn’t a sincere suggestion.

Edit: I just watched the video :s

I want you to tell me, with a straight face, than any thief build other than D/P is actually competitive in a given role in PvP.

Thieves are literally relegated to back capping, killing bad players, and +1 detail.

The only things thieves can do better than any other class are providing stealth to allies, and moving between points. In every other measurable metrikittenerally every class now has a leg up in terms of passive sustain, burst damage, or support utility.

Common misconceptions:

Thieves deal tons of burst damage!

False. Thief burst damage is no better than similarly geared and traited burst builds from any other class. Warriors have better burst while maintaining better sustain. So do guardians. So do necros. So do mesmers. The only difference is that thieves can more often initiate a burst from stealth, increasing the odds that the target does not respond appropriately, or allowing the thief to exploit targets in weak situations.

Thieves have sustain builds!

Everyone has sustain builds. Not all of them actually work. Due to a combination of the lowest HP pool, lack of boons, and lack of condition cleansing, all of the thief’s sustain is built around evasion. Playing a thief “sustain” build well enough to simply stay alive is analagous to playing any other sustain build in the game perfectly

Until HoT (and unless some stuff changes, possibly after HoT) you’re severely deluded if you think a non-stealth thief is in any way mechanically viable in PvP. It is not. There is not a single thief sustain build that actually performs against a skilled opponent well enough to kill that opponent.

Mesmers can’t kill thieves though!

Mesmers are more than capable of taking your average thief. You just chose not to build for it. Play a condition mesmer, you just killed a thief, or at the very least forced him off your point. We literally do not have the option to clear enough conditions, even if we take every single avaliable cleanse (which kills our damage)

Our only reliable passive condi cleanse requires us to remain in stealth and wait. We do not have a single universal cleanse. Our passive cleanses, with only a few long ICD exceptions, work on debilitating, but not damaging conditions.

100% PU was not OP, because thieves can stealth all over the place

Pre-nerf PU mesmer wasn’t equal to thieves. It was strictly better. I’m talking loads better. I’m talking generating clones and stacking boons that actually stick around when you leave stealth, and suffering no ill effects from being forcibly revealed better.

Contrast that with thieves. Every thief stealth trait only has any effect when in stealth. In order to benefit from stealth we have to actually be in stealth We can not deal direct damage while stealthed. We can not deal indirect damage while stealthed. We can throw our entire build at traps and be useless trolls, but other than that we can’t actually threaten anyone. We do not rack up sustain that persists after we leave stealth. When we are revealed every benefit we gain from stealth vanishes with only two notable exceptions.

The first is Revealed Training, a static, non-stacking +200 power buff which is equivalent to about 6.6 stacks of might, and can not be extended beyond 4 seconds in any way.

The second is, of course, stealth attacks. Do the math and you’ll find that the only thing that makes stealth attacks worth using is that they don’t cost initiative, and can be made through a trait to auto-crit. A single backstab is no more lethal than any number of high damage abilities in the game, many of which also confer debuffs to the target and are used from a range of 1200 units

The way the 100% PU mesmer utilized stealth was more effective, more efficient, more tanky, output more damage, and just plain better than a class with an entire trait line dedicated to stealth

So yes, they were in fact better thieves than theives.

Whomever posted that really nasty comment on my channel, you were reported to youtube and the comment removed.

What I don’t get is how people considered this a heavy handed nerf when it was changed to its old value before the specialization patch, if anything it’s just a revert. Also when it was 100% it was practically Theif 2.0 except for lesser mobility.

If they wanted to revert it, they should have given it to begin with, those upset about it seem to be willing to be satisfied with it being bumped back up to 65%

Rizigmar.2681:

What I don’t get is how people considered this a heavy handed nerf when it was changed to its old value before the specialization patch, if anything it’s just a revert. Also when it was 100% it was practically Theif 2.0 except for lesser mobility.

Because it was considered a very not good trait before the patch.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Rizigmar.2681:

What I don’t get is how people considered this a heavy handed nerf when it was changed to its old value before the specialization patch, if anything it’s just a revert. Also when it was 100% it was practically Theif 2.0 except for lesser mobility.

Because it was considered a very not good trait before the patch.

There were a number of reasons why it wasn’t good before.
-The old system only supported 70 point spread meaning you’d have to pick either pick PU or IP.
-PU itself was in a condi stat line meaning you’re sacrificing damage.
-PU wasn’t good for Spvp at that time because there was belief that stealth leads to decaps=not good.

PopeUrban.2578:

Common misconceptions:

Thieves deal tons of burst damage!

False. Thief burst damage is no better than similarly geared and traited burst builds from any other class. Warriors have better burst while maintaining better sustain. So do guardians. So do necros. So do mesmers.

Thieves have sustain builds!

Everyone has sustain builds. Not all of them actually work.

Mesmers can’t kill thieves though!

Mesmers are more than capable of taking your average thief. You just chose not to build for it. Play a condition mesmer, you just killed a thief, or at the very least forced him off your point. We literally do not have the option to clear enough conditions, even if we take every single avaliable cleanse (which kills our damage)

100% PU was not OP, because thieves can stealth all over the place

Urban, are you familiar with the concept of strawmen in rhetoric? See, what you’re doing here is taking my post and respond to it’s style while making up a number of topics you pull out of your own hat to defeat. You are being very salty when at it as well, turning this Mesmer grumble thread into a Thief grumble thread in it’s place.

If you instead look at the conclusions you draw in your own responses (rather than the setup), you’ll see that they are not that far from the conclusions I drew in what you quoted. I can appreciate that you reacted to the sour tone of this thread, but I reacted to the tone of your post.

Let’s mull the periphery over again:

I felt as though I was quite clear in pointing out that every class gained alot of burst with the stat changes. I made that argument to underline that it’s not a Mesmer issue. You make the same argument for the Thief. I can assume you agree with me then.

I also pointed out that every class have options in stats and style to play more or less sustained. The argument was that with some styled devotion to sustain, power Mesmer builds are still glassy, same as how S/D builds are glassy even though they are not as all-out burst dependent as D/P. You were claiming the Mesmer had sustain, I was not claiming Thieves did, I was reminding you that none of them do even though both can adapt power-builds that are not 100% assassination styled (note: style, not stat).

Nowhere did I say Mesmers couldn’t kill Thieves. The interesting comment you make in that header though, is the one about conditions. They too, since the summer, are beginning to reach burst-levels (esp. with the popularity of hybrid builds) where hardly any class can cleanse enough conditions in small-scale gameplay. In fact, conditions much like power-crit tend to end up in a situation of burst-counterburst now (which has made transfer-abilities very powerful).

Back to the stealth issue that this thread grumbles about:

The reason stealth was improved for Mesmers was very likely that the disparity in stealth was so gapped that it influenced higher order decisions (how to group players etc.). Uptime is the important factor here and not just in whatever duelling scenario we find in sPvP. In several of the game modes (and sPvP is not excluded) the differences that used to exist turned old Mesmer stealths into a waiting game they’d lose every time – to the point where you couldn’t rely on them to perform a stealthing role – any time you used a stealth other classes could respond to out-wait you and that was a problem. It became a game of wasting cooldowns rather than interesting play-counterplay of stealth abilities.

That’s where all the peripheral discussion comes in, because if we can agree that many of the issues with burst, sustain, conditions and whatever else are stat-based and affect most if not all classes, rather than class-based and Mesmer specific, then the argument about who is the “stealthing class” falls as both classes are dependent upon it and there needs to be some similarities or semblence of balanced uptime.

We did not have that before the summer and the result of the rollback here does not put the Mesmer at a better position than before the summer – at least not beyond its ability to capitalize on the current unsettled power-crit or power-condi environments. Again, essentially all classes have some whacky assassin-style or hybrid-burst build that hardly any sustain or cleanses can deal with. Yet Mesmers are being handled rather heavyhanded on the trait level, leaving us on build options that are questionable even in comparison to the older spring traits (which people are beginning to make note of).

There is a rather troublesome cycle of identifying problems, creating new problems and rolling back to an even weaker position. While some of us can sympathize with you in how something was amiss with all the summer stealth, we expect you to be able to sympathize with how Mesmers were not in a particularily strong position before and that the gap in stealth was one of those issues that was identified – in more modes than sPvP.

That’s the “higher order” concern I have, I do not care very much about the Mesmer versus Thief situation, I care about the overall balance of stealth and Mesmers next to Thieves – because before the summer we had a development where Thieves played better with more Thieves than with Mesmers – and that reflected the position you entered into this thread with: That Mesmers are not a stealth class. Given the attention this discussion garners I think we can safely assume that it certainly is a stealth class, which means that Mesmer stealth obviously needs to be balanced both up and down.

However, a rollback on a single class is not the same as such a rebalance.

While some Mesmers are obviously sour about their candy being stolen, me, along with several other people commenting here, are more concerned about how several of the issues the changes were designed to correct are now being recreated. That includes appeal in taking two Thieves over a Thief and a Mesmer for purposes of stealth or how other classes may risk have better access to conditions chiefly associated with Mesmers and condition-bursting potential (if you read Archangel’s thread made around the same time as this one). Those are fair concerns and interesting discussions, not something to go hyperbole over in another class’ forums.

Subversion.2580:

PopeUrban.2578:

Common misconceptions:

Thieves deal tons of burst damage!

False. Thief burst damage is no better than similarly geared and traited burst builds from any other class. Warriors have better burst while maintaining better sustain. So do guardians. So do necros. So do mesmers.

Thieves have sustain builds!

Everyone has sustain builds. Not all of them actually work.

Mesmers can’t kill thieves though!

Mesmers are more than capable of taking your average thief. You just chose not to build for it. Play a condition mesmer, you just killed a thief, or at the very least forced him off your point. We literally do not have the option to clear enough conditions, even if we take every single avaliable cleanse (which kills our damage)

100% PU was not OP, because thieves can stealth all over the place

Urban, are you familiar with the concept of strawmen in rhetoric? See, what you’re doing here is taking my post and respond to it’s style while making up a number of topics you pull out of your own hat to defeat. You are being very salty when at it as well, turning this Mesmer grumble thread into a Thief grumble thread in it’s place.

If you instead look at the conclusions you draw in your own responses (rather than the setup), you’ll see that they are not that far from the conclusions I drew in what you quoted. I can appreciate that you reacted to the sour tone of this thread, but I reacted to the tone of your post.

Let’s mull the periphery over again:

I felt as though I was quite clear in pointing out that every class gained alot of burst with the stat changes. I made that argument to underline that it’s not a Mesmer issue. You make the same argument for the Thief. I can assume you agree with me then.

I also pointed out that every class have options in stats and style to play more or less sustained. The argument was that with some styled devotion to sustain, power Mesmer builds are still glassy, same as how S/D builds are glassy even though they are not as all-out burst dependent as D/P. You were claiming the Mesmer had sustain, I was not claiming Thieves did, I was reminding you that none of them do even though both can adapt power-builds that are not 100% assassination styled (note: style, not stat).

Nowhere did I say Mesmers couldn’t kill Thieves. The interesting comment you make in that header though, is the one about conditions. They too, since the summer, are beginning to reach burst-levels (esp. with the popularity of hybrid builds) where hardly any class can cleanse enough conditions in small-scale gameplay. In fact, conditions much like power-crit tend to end up in a situation of burst-counterburst now (which has made transfer-abilities very powerful).

Back to the stealth issue that this thread grumbles about:

The reason stealth was improved for Mesmers was very likely that the disparity in stealth was so gapped that it influenced higher order decisions (how to group players etc.). Uptime is the important factor here and not just in whatever duelling scenario we find in sPvP. In several of the game modes (and sPvP is not excluded) the differences that used to exist turned old Mesmer stealths into a waiting game they’d lose every time – to the point where you couldn’t rely on them to perform a stealthing role – any time you used a stealth other classes could respond to out-wait you and that was a problem. It became a game of wasting cooldowns rather than interesting play-counterplay of stealth abilities.

That’s where all the peripheral discussion comes in, because if we can agree that many of the issues with burst, sustain, conditions and whatever else are stat-based and affect most if not all classes, rather than class-based and Mesmer specific, then the argument about who is the “stealthing class” falls as both classes are dependent upon it and there needs to be some similarities or semblence of balanced uptime.

We did not have that before the summer and the result of the rollback here does not put the Mesmer at a better position than before the summer – at least not beyond its ability to capitalize on the current unsettled power-crit or power-condi environments. Again, essentially all classes have some whacky assassin-style or hybrid-burst build that hardly any sustain or cleanses can deal with. Yet Mesmers are being handled rather heavyhanded on the trait level, leaving us on build options that are questionable even in comparison to the older spring traits (which people are beginning to make note of).

There is a rather troublesome cycle of identifying problems, creating new problems and rolling back to an even weaker position. While some of us can sympathize with you in how something was amiss with all the summer stealth, we expect you to be able to sympathize with how Mesmers were not in a particularily strong position before and that the gap in stealth was one of those issues that was identified – in more modes than sPvP.

That’s the “higher order” concern I have, I do not care very much about the Mesmer versus Thief situation, I care about the overall balance of stealth and Mesmers next to Thieves – because before the summer we had a development where Thieves played better with more Thieves than with Mesmers – and that reflected the position you entered into this thread with: That Mesmers are not a stealth class. Given the attention this discussion garners I think we can safely assume that it certainly is a stealth class, which means that Mesmer stealth obviously needs to be balanced both up and down.

However, a rollback on a single class is not the same as such a rebalance.

While some Mesmers are obviously sour about their candy being stolen, me, along with several other people commenting here, are more concerned about how several of the issues the changes were designed to correct are now being recreated. That includes appeal in taking two Thieves over a Thief and a Mesmer for purposes of stealth or how other classes may risk have better access to conditions chiefly associated with Mesmers and condition-bursting potential (if you read Archangel’s thread made around the same time as this one). Those are fair concerns and interesting discussions, not something to go hyperbole over in another class’ forums.

How much have the issues been recreated? The stealth duration values were not put at old PU levels. The bugged torch was confirmed to be intended.

From my own testing the max stealth duration without PU but a traitrd torch is 20 seconds.

With PU and traited torch that number reaches 30

With Chronomancer we get to 40 plus.

What issues are you encountering?

Biggest problem is I dont really enjoy my Mesmer no more. Minor problem I have not won but 3 matches since the patch. Not sure that is matchmaking or the build is just so weak now. Could be both. I am usually an average player.

Fay.2357:

atlrising.5134:

Here is what my last ten matches looks like. I finished on top once, I am typically third and the rest of the times at the bottom of the list. Since the nerf I spend most of my time at extremely low HP since I cant stealth to get away.

And here’s my last 10 matches. I guess we can conclude from this that anecdotal evidence is totally meaningless?

Typically speaking, the less a player uses stealth (for those who have access to it), the less they depend on it, and the more skilled they tend to be, especially when it gets nerfed ever so slightly. This is the same for any innate mechanic which favors a particular class or style. Learn to not use it, and you do better when using it. This is also coming from a thief main since release, and why many of the top-tier thieves have left the game with the only class viability sitting in stealth/decap builds, and why I’m personally very unhappy with the current state of the thief class.

As I mentioned in another thread about the mesmer, PU/stealth overbuffed some aspects of the class that would make any changes elsewhere totally unreasonable. Like the thief, extended stealth access just put them in a state of controversial and subjective balancing (it’s been mentioned about mesmer being better at thief than the thief, this was true in regards to skirmishing potential rather than decap, which, while important, is a very boring and unflattering role existing only on principle due to one skill of one weapon). Reducing that controversy and normalizing the class is a much better and stable way to balance the class in the future. Stealth has been a basis for repeated nerfs of the class every single balance update since release except this past patch, regardless of the class’s abilities to perform otherwise (and even then, that potency was first to go), and with all of the new ways to get Revealed, focus heavily on hard-countering class mechanics like stealth attacks.

Consider if the thief had no access to stealth; would it be a competitive class? I’d argue that in its current state, the majority of players with a reasonable knowledge would argue that it would certainly be terrible in combat. Even now, the class struggles in fights except for very few build/situation encounters, but upwards tweaking is very difficult, especially since it’s very hard to even locate the target of where the tweaks need to be made when stealth provides a platform to create huge variances in combat potency based on the skill or lack thereof of the thief and its opponent.

Because of this, it makes buffing extremely difficult even if arguably necessary. In essence, this is the last situation the mesmer community should want their class to be in. Do I still think PU needs further adjustments for counterplay? Yes. But I think it is because of the boons it provides being random (and thus randomly difficult to finish off a mesmer, even if its location in stealth is known), not the stealth itself. Does it matter in the grand scheme of things? Not really, since most competitive builds are rather cheesy and act similarly. But I do stand by the fact it’s bad design.

Just bear in mind that the mesmer community can take solace in that its numbers can see fair adjustments into the future based on more solidly-defined numbers and concepts rather than the abstract of stealth, and will likely find its quality of life sustained or improved into fairness into the future, rather than very subjective balancing from a very subjective mechanic.

@Subversion (avoiding passive quote pyramid)

I wasn’t out to attack you personally, but your entire post did a lot more to enforce this idea that it wasn’t the thief/mesmer relationship that motivated the change. My opinion is that it was most certainly the thief/mesmer relationship.

The core design of mesmer is and always has been a class primarily designed around the creation, maintainence, and utilization of clones and phantasms. Mesmers were granted limited invisibility in order to aid their intended primary defensive mechanism, target obfuscation.

Stealth on mesmers exists to help them use clones as target obfuscation rather than, as the thief, to rely solely on the act of being invisible. The idea that mesmers should compete with thieves for stealth utility is just as preposterous as suggesting thieves should compete with mesmers for NPC spawning utility.

Mesmers have mass invisibility, thieves have thieve’s guild. Both are supplements to the core mechanisms of the class, not replacements

Mesmers are not and never were intended to rely on stealth as a core defensive mechanism at a basic design level, because their core mechanisms involve using external sources for damage. Mesmers have stealth for the same reason they gave rangers limited stealth: it helps you utilize pets.

In contrast, thieves have limited pets to help them utilize stealth

The two classes are two sides of a coin, but they are not both either heads nor tails.

Mesmers may acquire the ability to become a “stealth class” with future elite specs that drastically reduce their pet utility, but as of now mesmers are not intended to perform as a ‘stealth class’ any more than a thief is intended to perform as a ‘pet class’

Stealth doesn’t need adjusted up and down. It simply needs to stay at a reasonable level for its specific role on the mesmer: enhancing the primary mechanisms of the class. The problems mesmer have are problems that do not need to be addressed with the addition of more stealth reliance any more than the problems that thief has need to be addressed with more pets.

Had to turn off the comments to the video due to the immaturity of some.