Guild Wars 2

Well, it’s been a good run. But with warriors and necros getting the nerf, PU mesmers are up next. I give it til the end of January. If you have doubt, go look at the thief forum, there are at least 8 different threads on the front page raging over mesmer stealth. It’s only a matter of time before the rest of the forums go into an uproar and ArenaNet knee-jerks into a nerf.

They kind of have a point…When I first started with this build months and months ago, I realized it would become mainstream and get subsequently nerfed. So here’s to the good times.

Anyways, my question involves a new build…something with a similar level of deception. My favorite part of my mesmer (and my thief before it got nerfed to bejesus and back) is deception. I love the PU build because when I play it right, my opponent won’t be able to tell up from down, clone from me. So are there any other builds that can accomplish that?

The only thing that should be nerfed is block on stealth.

Some classes have less trouble against us like the condi engine and any necro who knows how to dodge and aoe down illusions. If I pop prestige and decoy without much gain I’m pretty much screwed if my opponent can then close on me and hit me with a cc.

Simplicity.7208:

Well, it’s been a good run. But with warriors and necros getting the nerf, PU mesmers are up next. I give it til the end of January. If you have doubt, go look at the thief forum, there are at least 8 different threads on the front page raging over mesmer stealth. It’s only a matter of time before the rest of the forums go into an uproar and ArenaNet knee-jerks into a nerf.

They kind of have a point…When I first started with this build months and months ago, I realized it would become mainstream and get subsequently nerfed. So here’s to the good times.

Anyways, my question involves a new build…something with a similar level of deception. My favorite part of my mesmer (and my thief before it got nerfed to bejesus and back) is deception. I love the PU build because when I play it right, my opponent won’t be able to tell up from down, clone from me. So are there any other builds that can accomplish that?

The problem with PU is the boons that comes with all that ridiculous stealth uptime.
Shave the boons, or just cap their duration in a way that it would be impossible to achieve that broken protection uptime without heavy investment in boon duration through runes & food, and its effectiveness will be toned down a bit.

Only counter is a full condi burst from a necro and MAYBE a P/D thief. I managed to kill a PU with my D/P thief, but had to rely too much on stealth myself, since I needed to let him waste all his CDs before attempting to finish him, and I was always on the verge of death, not to mention that the mesmer I fought was really bad.

I tried PU but it’s too cheesy.

hihey.1075:

Simplicity.7208:

Well, it’s been a good run. But with warriors and necros getting the nerf, PU mesmers are up next. I give it til the end of January. If you have doubt, go look at the thief forum, there are at least 8 different threads on the front page raging over mesmer stealth. It’s only a matter of time before the rest of the forums go into an uproar and ArenaNet knee-jerks into a nerf.

They kind of have a point…When I first started with this build months and months ago, I realized it would become mainstream and get subsequently nerfed. So here’s to the good times.

Anyways, my question involves a new build…something with a similar level of deception. My favorite part of my mesmer (and my thief before it got nerfed to bejesus and back) is deception. I love the PU build because when I play it right, my opponent won’t be able to tell up from down, clone from me. So are there any other builds that can accomplish that?

The problem with PU is the boons that comes with all that ridiculous stealth uptime.
Shave the boons, or just cap their duration in a way that it would be impossible to achieve that broken protection uptime without heavy investment in boon duration through runes & food, and its effectiveness will be toned down a bit.

Only counter is a full condi burst from a necro and MAYBE a P/D thief. I managed to kill a PU with my D/P thief, but had to rely too much on stealth myself, since I needed to let him waste all his CDs before attempting to finish him, and I was always on the verge of death, not to mention that the mesmer I fought was really bad.

I tried PU but it’s too cheesy.

Actually, the hardcounter is a well played phantasm build.

@OP: It’s not tons of people complaining, it’s 1 or 2 whiners, Go read the threads carefully.

Helios.3598:

Some classes have less trouble against us like the condi engine and any necro who knows how to dodge and aoe down illusions. If I pop prestige and decoy without much gain I’m pretty much screwed if my opponent can then close on me and hit me with a cc.

Uhm… what? What do you actually need to dodge from a PU mesmer?
Any decent guy can dodge scepter #2 or #3, everything else is just passive play, with clone/phantasm bleeds and random condi procs. Not to mention that a skilled PU would use scepter #2 while in stealth to ensure the torment is applied if he sees his opponent swinging his weapon (as he should do against a recently stealthed opponent), since it does not give revealed.

hihey.1075:

Not to mention that a skilled PU would use scepter #2 while in stealth… …since it does not give revealed.

This is false. The scepter block absolutely gives revealed. Go test it.

Pyroatheist.9031:

hihey.1075:

Simplicity.7208:

Well, it’s been a good run. But with warriors and necros getting the nerf, PU mesmers are up next. I give it til the end of January. If you have doubt, go look at the thief forum, there are at least 8 different threads on the front page raging over mesmer stealth. It’s only a matter of time before the rest of the forums go into an uproar and ArenaNet knee-jerks into a nerf.

They kind of have a point…When I first started with this build months and months ago, I realized it would become mainstream and get subsequently nerfed. So here’s to the good times.

Anyways, my question involves a new build…something with a similar level of deception. My favorite part of my mesmer (and my thief before it got nerfed to bejesus and back) is deception. I love the PU build because when I play it right, my opponent won’t be able to tell up from down, clone from me. So are there any other builds that can accomplish that?

The problem with PU is the boons that comes with all that ridiculous stealth uptime.
Shave the boons, or just cap their duration in a way that it would be impossible to achieve that broken protection uptime without heavy investment in boon duration through runes & food, and its effectiveness will be toned down a bit.

Only counter is a full condi burst from a necro and MAYBE a P/D thief. I managed to kill a PU with my D/P thief, but had to rely too much on stealth myself, since I needed to let him waste all his CDs before attempting to finish him, and I was always on the verge of death, not to mention that the mesmer I fought was really bad.

I tried PU but it’s too cheesy.

Actually, the hardcounter is a well played phantasm build.

@OP: It’s not tons of people complaining, it’s 1 or 2 whiners, Go read the threads carefully.

I tried 20 20 0 30 0 and it does not work. Condi appliances are too frequent and a skilled mesmer would stand near its clones to let them take the iDuelist unload or completely reposition away from the phantasms if the opponent is a GS/Sw+Sw user.

The PU I took down while using a phantasm build were actually really, really bad. The only thing that does not work against phantasm mesmers is Perplexity as they can freely stop attacking if they notice the 5 stacks of confusion.

hihey.1075:

Pyroatheist.9031:

hihey.1075:

Simplicity.7208:

Well, it’s been a good run. But with warriors and necros getting the nerf, PU mesmers are up next. I give it til the end of January. If you have doubt, go look at the thief forum, there are at least 8 different threads on the front page raging over mesmer stealth. It’s only a matter of time before the rest of the forums go into an uproar and ArenaNet knee-jerks into a nerf.

They kind of have a point…When I first started with this build months and months ago, I realized it would become mainstream and get subsequently nerfed. So here’s to the good times.

Anyways, my question involves a new build…something with a similar level of deception. My favorite part of my mesmer (and my thief before it got nerfed to bejesus and back) is deception. I love the PU build because when I play it right, my opponent won’t be able to tell up from down, clone from me. So are there any other builds that can accomplish that?

The problem with PU is the boons that comes with all that ridiculous stealth uptime.
Shave the boons, or just cap their duration in a way that it would be impossible to achieve that broken protection uptime without heavy investment in boon duration through runes & food, and its effectiveness will be toned down a bit.

Only counter is a full condi burst from a necro and MAYBE a P/D thief. I managed to kill a PU with my D/P thief, but had to rely too much on stealth myself, since I needed to let him waste all his CDs before attempting to finish him, and I was always on the verge of death, not to mention that the mesmer I fought was really bad.

I tried PU but it’s too cheesy.

Actually, the hardcounter is a well played phantasm build.

@OP: It’s not tons of people complaining, it’s 1 or 2 whiners, Go read the threads carefully.

I tried 20 20 0 30 0 and it does not work. Condi appliances are too frequent and a skilled mesmer would stand near its clones to let them take the iDuelist unload or completely reposition away from the phantasms if the opponent is a GS/Sw+Sw user.

The PU I took down while using a phantasm build were actually really, really bad. The only thing that does not work against phantasm mesmers is Perplexity as they can freely stop attacking if they notice the 5 stacks of confusion.

You played poorly.

PU condie builds absolutely rely on their opponent to attack them for the condie burst. The vast majority of condition application is achieved using clone explosions and the torment block, and neither of these are effective against someone that does not attack.

Phantasm builds have the luxury of not attacking. You simply drop the phantasms and let them go to town. If you refuse to actually attack the PU mesmer yourself, you will never get hit with torment, rarely get hit with a clone explosion, and your innate condition removal from Mender’s Purity will be more than enough to take care of any stray conditions that hit you.

That being said, a poorly played phantasm mesmer will die just as fast as anything else. This style of counter-play absolutely has a skill requirement.

hihey.1075:

Helios.3598:

Some classes have less trouble against us like the condi engine and any necro who knows how to dodge and aoe down illusions. If I pop prestige and decoy without much gain I’m pretty much screwed if my opponent can then close on me and hit me with a cc.

Uhm… what? What do you actually need to dodge from a PU mesmer?

phantasms obviously. Necros often dodge less due to a lot of channeling and ground targeting.

Whiners are the bane of this game, people should just wake up and either learn to play or leave, it’s been constant, whine, get a nerf, look for something else, bleat again. Just look at the history of the class.

If I get beat, two things happen, I log onto the forums of that class, explore the builds, log onto my character of that proffession and try the build, I then think of its weaknesses, then I find some people to duel on my original class and get better. Easy mode is to sit in your porcelain tower and only play one class; cry when you lose, never learn as a player and call for nerfs.

Thieves whine 24/7. If Anet actually listened them, they would be perma stealthed, perma evading one shotting demigods.

PU does need some tweaking, but I doubt it’ll happen anytime soon, if ever. Hope I’m wrong.

PU is probably the least effort/highest return playstyle the Mesmer has right now, I wouldn’t mind at all if it got nerfed and I finally saw a Mesmer who’s not running it for a change.

The less stealth cheese in the game the better.

With the chain stealth from Decoy, Veil, MI and The Prestige, It is literally spam-clones-and-hide-in-stealth-pepperjack-cheese-edition.

PU is a silly, semi-passive pet build no differend from the spirit ranger. I dare to argue most of the people running this cheese couldn’t pull a gc shatter.

Pyroatheist.9031:

hihey.1075:

Pyroatheist.9031:

hihey.1075:

Simplicity.7208:

Well, it’s been a good run. But with warriors and necros getting the nerf, PU mesmers are up next. I give it til the end of January. If you have doubt, go look at the thief forum, there are at least 8 different threads on the front page raging over mesmer stealth. It’s only a matter of time before the rest of the forums go into an uproar and ArenaNet knee-jerks into a nerf.

They kind of have a point…When I first started with this build months and months ago, I realized it would become mainstream and get subsequently nerfed. So here’s to the good times.

Anyways, my question involves a new build…something with a similar level of deception. My favorite part of my mesmer (and my thief before it got nerfed to bejesus and back) is deception. I love the PU build because when I play it right, my opponent won’t be able to tell up from down, clone from me. So are there any other builds that can accomplish that?

The problem with PU is the boons that comes with all that ridiculous stealth uptime.
Shave the boons, or just cap their duration in a way that it would be impossible to achieve that broken protection uptime without heavy investment in boon duration through runes & food, and its effectiveness will be toned down a bit.

Only counter is a full condi burst from a necro and MAYBE a P/D thief. I managed to kill a PU with my D/P thief, but had to rely too much on stealth myself, since I needed to let him waste all his CDs before attempting to finish him, and I was always on the verge of death, not to mention that the mesmer I fought was really bad.

I tried PU but it’s too cheesy.

Actually, the hardcounter is a well played phantasm build.

@OP: It’s not tons of people complaining, it’s 1 or 2 whiners, Go read the threads carefully.

I tried 20 20 0 30 0 and it does not work. Condi appliances are too frequent and a skilled mesmer would stand near its clones to let them take the iDuelist unload or completely reposition away from the phantasms if the opponent is a GS/Sw+Sw user.

The PU I took down while using a phantasm build were actually really, really bad. The only thing that does not work against phantasm mesmers is Perplexity as they can freely stop attacking if they notice the 5 stacks of confusion.

You played poorly.

PU condie builds absolutely rely on their opponent to attack them for the condie burst. The vast majority of condition application is achieved using clone explosions and the torment block, and neither of these are effective against someone that does not attack.

Phantasm builds have the luxury of not attacking. You simply drop the phantasms and let them go to town. If you refuse to actually attack the PU mesmer yourself, you will never get hit with torment, rarely get hit with a clone explosion, and your innate condition removal from Mender’s Purity will be more than enough to take care of any stray conditions that hit you.

That being said, a poorly played phantasm mesmer will die just as fast as anything else. This style of counter-play absolutely has a skill requirement.

This is also the reason I play a hybridized PU style. You get punished for attacking me with condition burst and punished for not attacking me by me coming at you with critical bursts.

Blackwater is amazingly powerful and one of the strongest builds in the game, especially if you see how easy it is to play.

The first time I encountered this build was in a 1v1 against Osicat. I was on my DD ele and I thought I was up for a hard battle but having played 300 hours+ on shatter mesmer myself, I thought I’d have a decent chance. Little did I know this build just got discovered. I got absolutely decimated. If you every attack you do is aoe and he just sits in stealth a lot, gaining the strongest boons in the game, it’s literally impossible.

I then got the gear myself in WvW and tried it out. There has never been a stronger mesmer build around. It is soooo powerful, nothing comes close except you have very little chasing power. I have not lost a 1v1 with this as of yet but I still mainly play shatter because it’s more fun to me. But PU conditions needs a slight nerf. I don’t know where, maybe the boons, maybe the conditions it spits out but currently, it’s one of the best builds in the game.

PU mesmer is only good for solo roaming and dueling.

In a group setting, a shatter or Phantasm w/ shattered conditions brings far more to teh table.

No PU doesnt need to be nerfed. It’s a niche build for trolling.

It’s silly how many people have whined about PU mesmer so far.
Just go look at Vash’s video of gs shatter and see how he melts multiple people.
The difference is people get frustrated by fighting against a condi-PU mesmer because the harder you fight it and just spam buttons the more you hurt yourself.
They shouldn’t complain about PU mesmer being easy, since the reason they die to it is cause they don’t even know how to play their own class.

And no i don’t even play a condi-PU build myself anymore since it’s just a troll build.
You can’t even kill a dolyak with it in under 3 mins.

Jackums.3496:

clipnotdone.9634:

PU is probably the least effort/highest return playstyle the Mesmer has right now,

Least effort? Sure. Highest return? Hardly.

I should think stun warriors and heartseeker thieves rank far above that in the “least effort” category. Mesmer, regardless of the build, is always going to have a high skill requirement. That or it seems that some mesmers are whining that their shatter build is less effective than PU…

PU is powerful. Maybe a bit too powerful, if only slightly. (How about swapping aegis with swiftness, or something small like that?) But that is beside the point, at the moment. My bigger question is why is the PU grief coming from pretty much one source: Thieves?

We all now that certain builds counter certain builds. And no build should be able to counter all others. That is the beauty of this game. So when I hear backstab/heartseeker thieves complain, I see the issue simply as a rock beats paper scenario. Blackwater mesmers have high toughness—this counters thieves’ direct damage. But these builds have crap vitality and bad coni removal, as we all know. Condition thieves (not to mention engis, necros, warriors, etc.) destroy blackwater. And in addition, dagger thieves can just leave the fight and not worry about being chased. I just don’t totally understand the frustration.

And besides, at the end of the day, skill really matters most. But no one who is able to pick and choose fights at will should be able to complain when they can’t win.

If all these PU threads were coming from the Elementalist and Ranger forums I would completely understand. But Thieves? Come on now.

Me thinks there’s a just a bit of frustration that this build is almost equally as trollsome as D/P. A fairly competent P/D condi Thief will have no trouble against PU condi builds. Only the most spammy, impatient Thieves truly melt to PU builds.

The majority source of damage from PU mesmer (Blackwater variation) is:

1. Opponent mindlessly keyspam with confusion on
2. Opponent mindlessly kill clones (at melee range) which triggers Debilitating Dissipation trait
3. Opponent mindlessly decided to sit in the chaos storm for X amount of time
4. Opponent mindlessly allow the PU mesmer to use dodges and spells offensively to trigger Debilitating Dissipation himself and does not stay far enough from the illusions
5. Opponent mindlessly decided to run like a rabbit with torment on

Mainstream PU mesmer (Staff , Sceptor/Torch version), will not be able to catch you if u EVER decide to run away.

If you are involved in a 1v1 match up (duel to death or something) and feel the NEED to kill them:
Be calm , find the real target before you attack, use ctrl ‘T’, find the one that’s dodging, search your screen 360 when they attempt to “reset” targeting by going invis, bait out their long CD condition removals (assuming they’re not running generosity sigil, in that case they probably skipped energy which means lesser dodges)

If not … don’t be the “mindless” opponent or just run away

eozturk.7205:

PU builds are excellent example of showing bad players in the game. If you can’t manage to beat a PU build mesmer, you are doing something wrong. L2P issue.

I wouldn’t necessarily go that far. There are some really powerful PU power based builds. But yes, if you are fighting a staff, scepter/torch condition build, you may not win, but you can really easily not die to them. Not saying that’s the same, but it is something.

Every class should have a noob-friendly build. This build should:
1) be slow and forgiving, which 20/20/30 does in the form of high toughness and stealth.
2) be simple strategically. For this, merely summon phantasms and kite.
3) simple mechanically. This build completely ignores shattering, and has relatively few situational skills (e.g. scepter #2 block, pistol #5 interrupt).

However, what it should not be is an exceedingly powerful build with a few niche counters. The last week I met a self-confessed noob in a PvP dueling arena. He’d started the game that day and was looking for help. I gave him this build. Within 30 minutes he was beating all his friends – a warrior, guardian, and a ranger I believe – who had been playing for ~6 months. He then asked for another build. I thought he might enjoy something more skill-based now that he had a little more experience. I gave him clone-death 10/25/10/0/25 – not much more of a difficult build, to be sure. And he absolutely detested it, because he lost several of his first duels. He asked for another; I gave him the 20/20/0/0/30 shatter. That was even worse. He hasn’t asked for another.
The problem with the PU condition is that it is too powerful for too little skill. The noob had no incentive to try other builds, because he could beat everything he wanted with the skill-less build that he had. He didn’t care about Solo-Queue or Team-Queue; he just enjoyed the fights. He will play that build until he becomes very, very bored, and in all likelihood quit the game.
I suppose it is rather obvious by now, but I think the damage should be nerfed. It should still be just as easy to play- the go to “noob build”, but it should not be as powerful. Rather, there should be clear individual incentives in using different builds. I have yet to see the shatter mesmer, and the shatter mesmer build, that can consistently beat a PU condition one. I would rather like to be corrected on this, but I do not think I will be. As it is now, most mesmers prefer winning on a cheese build to dying on a fun one.

eozturk.7205:

PU builds are excellent example of showing bad players in the game. If you can’t manage to beat a PU build mesmer, you are doing something wrong. L2P issue.

So… you’re basically saying PU builds are the worst builds mesmer has.

Noss.4105:

eozturk.7205:

PU builds are excellent example of showing bad players in the game. If you can’t manage to beat a PU build mesmer, you are doing something wrong. L2P issue.

So… you’re basically saying PU builds are the worst builds mesmer has.

He’s saying PU build is very good against inexperienced players which is quite a large population in gw2…

meichor.7809:

Noss.4105:

eozturk.7205:

PU builds are excellent example of showing bad players in the game. If you can’t manage to beat a PU build mesmer, you are doing something wrong. L2P issue.

So… you’re basically saying PU builds are the worst builds mesmer has.

He’s saying PU build is very good against inexperienced players which is quite a large population in gw2…

No…he is saying if you can’t beat a PU mesmer, you’re a bad player. He said nothing about inexperienced players.

And I’m willing to beat in a duel, two PU memser can’t beat each other. So does that make them both bad?

meichor.7809:

Noss.4105:

eozturk.7205:

PU builds are excellent example of showing bad players in the game. If you can’t manage to beat a PU build mesmer, you are doing something wrong. L2P issue.

So… you’re basically saying PU builds are the worst builds mesmer has.

He’s saying PU build is very good against inexperienced players which is quite a large population in gw2…

IMO, mesmer overall is very good against inexperienced players.

I don’t really care that much if PU gets nerfed or not. But when so many people use one build/trait, it’s usually an indicator that something is wrong. Especially when it comes to mesmer, since we have so many good builds.

PU is a superb trait. I’d say it’s so good that it could be split in two, boons while stealthed and increased stealth duration in different traits.

PU build is trash in spvp so it’s quite unlikely it sees a nerf anytime soon.

A nerf is def on the radar for PU. It’s just wishful thinking if you think it isn’t. We can only hope that Anet doesn’t obliterate it.

It was stated by someone else on here, but my recommendation has always been to switch out the aegis for swiftness. It would be a decent nerf (toning down the raw defense) but with a silver lining (offering mesmers more options for swiftness/mobility).

Pyroatheist.9031:

hihey.1075:

Simplicity.7208:

Well, it’s been a good run. But with warriors and necros getting the nerf, PU mesmers are up next. I give it til the end of January. If you have doubt, go look at the thief forum, there are at least 8 different threads on the front page raging over mesmer stealth. It’s only a matter of time before the rest of the forums go into an uproar and ArenaNet knee-jerks into a nerf.

They kind of have a point…When I first started with this build months and months ago, I realized it would become mainstream and get subsequently nerfed. So here’s to the good times.

Anyways, my question involves a new build…something with a similar level of deception. My favorite part of my mesmer (and my thief before it got nerfed to bejesus and back) is deception. I love the PU build because when I play it right, my opponent won’t be able to tell up from down, clone from me. So are there any other builds that can accomplish that?

The problem with PU is the boons that comes with all that ridiculous stealth uptime.
Shave the boons, or just cap their duration in a way that it would be impossible to achieve that broken protection uptime without heavy investment in boon duration through runes & food, and its effectiveness will be toned down a bit.

Only counter is a full condi burst from a necro and MAYBE a P/D thief. I managed to kill a PU with my D/P thief, but had to rely too much on stealth myself, since I needed to let him waste all his CDs before attempting to finish him, and I was always on the verge of death, not to mention that the mesmer I fought was really bad.

I tried PU but it’s too cheesy.

Actually, the hardcounter is a well played phantasm build.

@OP: It’s not tons of people complaining, it’s 1 or 2 whiners, Go read the threads carefully.

Tbh balthazar runes with condi PU and phantasm mesmers are no longer a problem.
I know its a highly under used runeset, but the 7sec burn is enough to kill the phantasm and deal a nice amount of aoe burn too. I used to use them before the PU buff in my condi spec, worked pretty well.

Ontopic: I think PU is in need of a nerf if im honest, I’ve had absoloutley no problem with warriors when using it. We have enough ways to avoid damage without the need of high uptime on all these boons.

Master of Timespace.2548:

PU build is trash in spvp so it’s quite unlikely it sees a nerf anytime soon.

Sadly this is true.

I’m going to have to side with the “Trolling build” camp. You could tell that in the beginning of PU/Condie’s popularity people just really didn’t know what they were facing, and often just melted. It was hilarious to watch them basically kill themselves and rage out at you about it, but now it is much harder to find opponents that play that badly against this build.

It’s a strong 1v1 build, no doubt, but you almost never see people just melting anymore like they did a couple of months ago. The fights last much longer, and whenever it becomes 2v1 or worse odds, you’re at best trolling a bit until you Wilson out. Tactically speaking from a team point of view, which is >90% of this game, this build is trash.

BTW, you don’t need PU at all to make the Black Water build work just fine for 1v1s. The stealth up-time w/o PU is plenty of defense alone in a 1v1, and the DPS is actually higher if you put the points in the right place. The boons from PU really just add insult to injury in 1v1. What PU does provide is a load of survivability when it’s Xv1, but unless your opponents are complete newbs, you will not kill any of them anymore! (Ever fought people who rotate attacking you? Suddenly one guy kites and takes almost no damage, while the other attacks to keep you under pressure? Then the first heals and attacks you, and the second kites off to heal up? This is how you never lose a 2v1 vs. a PU Condie Mesmer. It’s virtually impossible to get a kill vs. duo doing that.)

This is what shows you that PU is not really the problem for this build, because you can get Protection elsewhere too and do the exact same thing. What really makes the build viable at all is Torment. Without it, the Mesmer basically can’t Condie burst enough to be viable, but it’s single target and reactionary, so it will always be a niche build IMO.

I’ve long moved on to greener pastures then BW myself. Trolling is fun and winning 1v1s is fun too, but when you realize how bad this build is in GvG you always end up going elsewhere. With a bit more skillful play, you can be just as strong 1v1, but be a much greater asset to your teams as well.

Phantasm builds are overall far superior to BW, and just as Pyro said, they’re also a hard counter to PU/Condie if you have a clue. Bonus!

Also remember what created the PU build in the first place! Nothing has changed for Torch in ages, so if they tone PU down they better beef something else up for Torch, or ANet will just manage to destroy the only niche this weapon currently enjoys. (Not to mention the PU trait, which almost NO ONE was traiting before they added the boons to it!)

Personally, I’d be all for a change to PU to both tone it down a tad, but also keep it worthy of a GM trait, as long as the iMage gets a significant boost in the process to keep Torch alive. Ironically, this would probably make BW stronger, not weaker! ;-)

i dont speak for the rest of the thieves out there only for myself by saying i think what irritate thieves the most is that mesmer has the ability to be stealth 30-40% up time of the fight which is like a thief (unique mechanism) and aslo able to do dmg from stealth with illusions while thief cannot
dont get me wrong i love thief and mesmer and both have unique mechanism and play style
what would you say if thieves had the ability to put 8 stacks of confusion on you (without perplexity) and ambush icd would be 10 seconds and doing dmg wouldnt revealed us

and all agree that thieves got thrown away to the far corner by anet

Windwalker.7421:

(Ever fought people who rotate attacking you? Suddenly one guy kites and takes almost no damage, while the other attacks to keep you under pressure? Then the first heals and attacks you, and the second kites off to heal up? This is how you never lose a 2v1 vs. a PU Condie Mesmer. It’s virtually impossible to get a kill vs. duo doing that.)

Hah, yep I’ve had this happen to me quite a few times. It’s a clever way to play against a PU Mesmer. I like it

Nubu.6148:

The only thing that should be nerfed is block on stealth.

Change it to Protection / Regeneration / Swiftness, I’d be happy.

PU builds are rather cheesy and rely for a large part on your opponent just mindlessly killing your clones. You’d imagine that a logically thinking person wouldn’t do this, but it appears that in WvW that type of people is in short supply.

It doesn’t surprise me that thieves are complaining about it, having been a powerful class for such a long time it has its fair share of FOTM rerollers and the vast majority of thieves I face seem to mash their 1 and 2 buttons mindlessly, killing clone after clone in the process.

PU Mesmers are very strong, but only so in 1v1 or small-scale. They also have obvious counters, the most important one being to stop and think for a moment before you attack whatever is nearest to you. Are they too strong? Perhaps, but it can only be judged after the new Meta (10 Dec) settles down.

I ran it for quite a while. It was powerful, but a lot of people have caught on like someone else said and more often than not it’s a trolly build. When I face one, I just run off after a while if I can’t kill him, and there’s nothing that he can do about me running off.

In essence, I got bored with its passive game-play and went back to a power-based build, centred on the Mindcrush lock-down spec. It requires much more skill and resembles much more how the Mesmer should be played in my eyes.

The common denominator and reason for QQ is STEALTH. There are 2 main professions that for a little more than a year have been the constant focus for complaints and subsequent nerfs they are ones that have stealth as a primary (thieves) or secondary(mesmers) mechanic. Remember PU was created because of all the tears over losing Illusionary Membrane. I have not played 1 MMO that stealth is not a cause of complaints.

PU is fine as a grandmaster trait without an increased stealth duration. Why you ask? I have played a condition Mesmer for far longer than the PU change and hated relying on stealth so I never picked it up. Then here comes the condition Meta that I have been heralding since forever and the PU spec is born. My first loss in that original build 1v1 was to a PU build… Why again? The more than generous aegis procs and having to re-target the Mesmer to apply pressure… anytime he stealth’s guess what!? my clones and phantasms re-target a his clones and takes the pressure off the Mesmer. The best counter to a PU build without all the elitism? LEAVE. That’s right walk away there is no reason to fight a troll that can reset the fight at a whim.

Stealth has always been a defensive mechanic for Mesmers to reset being focused now on top of that you have increased stealth durations and defensive boons? DEFENSIVE OVERKILL

I don’t mind PU eating a nerf… we went from as a community politicizing better BUILD DIVERSITY and here we are deliberating over the PU. Mesmer needs a redefined focus because honestly what the mesmer has become is a 2 trick pony PU or Deceptive Illusions take your pick it’s still a crutch that requires no skill.

messiah.1908:

i dont speak for the rest of the thieves out there only for myself by saying i think what irritate thieves the most is that mesmer has the ability to be stealth 30-40% up time of the fight which is like a thief (unique mechanism) and aslo able to do dmg from stealth with illusions while thief cannot
dont get me wrong i love thief and mesmer and both have unique mechanism and play style
what would you say if thieves had the ability to put 8 stacks of confusion on you (without perplexity) and ambush icd would be 10 seconds and doing dmg wouldnt revealed us

and all agree that thieves got thrown away to the far corner by anet

You are wrong. Stealth is not unique mechanism of thieves. Nor is confusion unique to mesmers or retalation to guardians.
Here, I draw you a picture:

Unique mechanics of thief: initative, steal, stealth attacks.
Unique mechanics of mesmer: clones, phantasms, shatters.
Unique mechanics of guardian: virtues.

Charasteristics of thief: stealth, evasion, teleports (shadowstep)…
Charasteristics of mesmer: teleports, stealth, confusion…
Charasteristics of guardian: blocks, retalation, aegis, burning…

read what i have said
mesmers have the ability to be 40% stealth time like thieves like no other class

stealth attack is just another skill and not mechanics
steal is just another shadow step with skills attached to it
and also mesmer have evasion
so basically according to what you wrote mesmer and thief are look alike (beside initiative and confusion). mmm…. exactly what i have said

thanks

messiah.1908:

read what i have said
mesmers have the ability to be 40% stealth time like thieves like no other class

Sorry, but Master of Timespace is correct. None of what you say makes sense, because the Engineer can attain very high levels of stealth uptime as well, most of it AoE through combos, and can also be built to stack confusion equal/better then Mesmers.

Just as stated above, stealth is not unique to thieves, and neither is confusion to Mesmers. Drawing any conclusions about your class based on those is a recipe for frustration.

When you look at all the stealth abilities that Mesmers got, do you really think that stealth wasn’t a major part of the professions design? Stealth based Elite, Veil, Decoy, Torch #4, and a trait that stealths us at 25% health. None of this has anything to do with PU; you can get plenty of stealth uptime without PU. Almost no one deemed PU worthwhile to spec in for just the added stealth duration, before the buffs were added.

I don’t think most BW Mesmers would even care about losing the extra 1s duration to Stealth on PU, but it won’t fix what the whiners are concerned about. As a poorly built & played Thief, you’re still going to get manhandled by a BW Mesmer even without those few added seconds of stealth. (Without even traiting PU too, IMO.)

clipnotdone.9634:

PU is probably the least effort/highest return playstyle the Mesmer has right now, I wouldn’t mind at all if it got nerfed and I finally saw a Mesmer who’s not running it for a change.

The less stealth cheese in the game the better.

What he said.
You don’t destroy everyone but you can easily disengage from everything.
It’s the most defensiv thing we can trait and it’s connected with stealth…
I’m really annoyed because they removed protection from the staff…
This trait alone gives all i would like to have …on stealth….

I don’t like stealth.

Threads like this hurt my brain. The players of GWs are its own worst enemy.

Silas Drake.8946:

Threads like this hurt my brain. The players of GWs are its own worst enemy.

Thankfully, the devs don’t listen to all the worthless whiners in the game.

For better or for worse, the devs do their own thing.

- Stealth is a tricky mechanism. Especially for newer players, it’s something that needs patience and learning. Thieves were very frustrating for me initially because of stealth. But it’s a mechanic that’s in the game, and it’s going to stay.

- Mesmers were designed to have access to stealth. PU is meant to be the biggest investment you can make if you choose to pursue stealth skills.

- The Blackwater build is one build that uses stealth and uses PU. A lot of this thread seems to be complaining about the Blackwater build, but there are other builds that use PU (and, as pointed out above, the Blackwater build does not have to have PU).

The changes to PU caused me to experiment with stealth skills, and ended up allowing me to create a build that I really like. It’s not the Blackwater build, and I think there are probably a lot of builds that use PU that are still possible to make (and that nobody has tried yet). I hope that players keep experimenting with PU (for example, I’m wondering if anyone has ever tried a shatter build that uses PU)

eldenbri.1059:

I hope that players keep experimenting with PU (for example, I’m wondering if anyone has ever tried a shatter build that uses PU)

Oh yeah, when Illusionists Celerity and Shattered Strength are swapped next week Ive got a build in mind for just such a thing. It won’t have as much burst as Illusions 30 but i’ll take the CD reduction.

My two cents about stealth. Experienced players know that AoE is king fighting any stealth build… I’d rather have the option for this kind of versatility instead of having to play ‘hulk smash’. And being on an underpopulated WvW server (still High population… uhh yeah Beavis) PU is quite a life saver. And no I don’t run the Blackwater build, chasing is half the fun!

The problem, as I see it, is simple. Any build that shows effectiveness (even under certain predetermined conditions), becomes the eventual target of backlash in this game.
Meanwhile, the question folk should ask themselves is less, “Is PU too strong?” and
more, “How do we get GM Traits -across the board- to be worth the 30 points plopped down for ’em?”
This same rampant wackiness is what led to the WvW Confusion Debacle, the Shagging of DD Ele, etc. And it never freaking stops. My issue is that: we’re dealing with a dev group who doesn’t go with half-measures, they’ll either over-nerf PU (making it crappy and underused … again), or overbuff something else.

eldenbri.1059:

I hope that players keep experimenting with PU (for example, I’m wondering if anyone has ever tried a shatter build that uses PU)

I’ve tried a shatter/PU build before, but didn’t work out too well. You just need too much stuff to get decent DPS out of shatters, and end up being a weakened GC that is also soft to Condies, and you just about have to use 1 utility slot on MI. (Another reason it doesn’t jive all that well with PU.)

I’m still experimenting with different PU builds though, but not BW/Condie, but more into power & hybrid builds.

Thief players have been whining about PU builds because of perma stealth (which is not true), about perma boons (which also is not true), high damage phantasms while stealthed (which is not true), perma Vigor (which also isn’t true) and damage dealt without being revealed (which is either not true or minimal). This whining and the exaggerations are just fatiguing and it is really hard to keep my mouth shut when reading so many false statements.

I already voiced my opinion in one of the Thief threads. While I think that the PU builds are quite strong I also believe that there is a reasonable amount of ways to counter them (unlike other overpowered builds on other classes). Additionally, as many people pointed out, you could just leave the scene because the Mesmer won’t be able to keep you from running away nor kill you. Just leave if you can’t deal with them. You won’t waste your time on bunker Guardians either.

I don’t think that the recent increase in complains about PU Mesmers is a coincidence. It is most likely connected to Theives getting their perma stealth nerfed. They are annoyed and want someone else to pay for it.

Xaylin.1860:

I don’t think that the recent increase in complains about PU Mesmers is a coincidence. It is most likely connected to Theives getting their perma stealth nerfed. They are annoyed and want someone else to pay for it.

You’re probably right, Xaylin. And it ticks me off; seeing as my main two “go-to” alts are Mesmer and Thief. And you don’t see me trying to get any class nerfed. I’d rather see all classes/Traits touched up to where wins come from skills, not forum-warrior-fuelled nerfbat.