Guild Wars 2

(Was gonna post some of this this in another thread, but I didn’t want to derail it further.)

Before I begin, the fact that I can even start this debate is a good sign. It wasn’t long ago that shatter was simply, undisputedly (not a word), the best tPvP build for a Mesmer. Now, 4/4/6 CI has gained enough respect to actually become a contender against the standard shatter build. I’d like to open a factual discussion as to why people believe whichever spec is better, and not with broad generalizations like “shatter bursts harder” but more specifically things like “the on-demand Shattering from IP offers alot that CI is lacking, for one the burst is heavier and more frequent due to lower shatter cooldowns and heavier shatter damage.” I will start with the competitor, CI, and take quotes as to why people feel it is superior.

CHAOTIC INTERRUPTION

Ross Biddle.2367:

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

…

Meh. With CS I can achieve the same thing (kill the cele) but I don’t have issue of just laying down whenever that Thief comes along.

As for CI, yes it has less damage but that’s what solid interrupt gameplay is for. If you’re chain interrupting and locking the target out of his skill uses, he’s done for.

As for IP no clone shatters. Great thing to have in your handbag but MoD is just as instant, comes with at least 2 casts, and is on a much short CD than Distortion. And so long as a CI mes has at least 1 clone up (not unlikely, easy to produce), he gets Distortion too. Shatter is so squishy he needs that on demand distortion. CI isn’t so dependent.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Fay.2357:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

The OP is rather mistaken. For a long time now, 20/20/30 CI shatter has been the meta shatter build to use.

Actually yeah this is very true. “Shatter” i.e. IP + faster shatter recharge rate doesnt really bring anything additional to the setup over 4, 4, 6 CI lockdown. Only no-clone shatter (which is only for the self) and more frequent shatters. CI traits, stat, and weapon loadouts are far superior. Even CS with appropriate weapons etc is superior because it offers a counter to thieves.

Interrupt/Lockdown is more difficult, but far far far superior. The feats you can pull with it are almost ridiculous in skilled hands.

Shatter offers heavy damage and boonstripping, CI trades off some of that damage for interrupts and immobilizes. CI can last longer, and has favorable matchups against different comps than shatter does. It has less problems with our main hardcounter -thieves- and can fight on the point while having more to offer in teamfights.

SHATTER

Quadox.7834

Okay. Incredible mightstacking, cooldown on illusions, reflect, extra bounce for pressure and burst. These are not to be neglected.

Neptune.2570:

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

Fay.2357:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

The OP is rather mistaken. For a long time now, 20/20/30 CI shatter has been the meta shatter build to use.

It’s so meta that nobody ever uses it in tournaments. The forum fandom of ~r30 players does not reflect what’s viabe.

Barely anyone uses mesmers at all in tounaments. What is viable is simply what works best in the team comps that exist today, and glassy burst shatter isn’t that effective against cele groups.

Disagree with this completely. Shatter is actually a huge counter to the cele Meta, if you lose to a cele engi/ele 1v1, you were likely outplayed. It’s funny how shatter Mesmer (The biggest counter to the cele meta imo) hasn’t been able to form a counter meta. The reason is actually because of how much cele bruisers outperform bunkers atm. Mesmer is not a self sustaining profession. At high level team play, you need to co-ordinate with your ‘Carers’ so to speak. And traditionally that’s always been the thief and guard to assist the Mes. The problem is, bunkers have been 100% replaced by cele bruisers, as they hold a point just as well, 1v1/2v2 better, have more mobility, and more dps. This only leaves room for self sustaining professions, hence why we are seeing 4 cele and S/D thief teams (All specs with there personal self-sustain). This leaves a Mesmer in a match-up vs the infamous S/D thief + the combined condi pressure that all cele’s bring and suddenly it’s a tough life for the shatter Mes.

TL:DR – Shatter Mesmers are the perfect counter to the cele Meta, but Bunkers have been completely eclipsed leaving the Shatter Mes without the support it needs. A buff to bunker guards will see shatter mes back in the meta imo.

witcher.3197:

It’s so meta that nobody ever uses it in tournaments. The forum fandom of ~r30 players does not reflect what’s viabe.

For all CI’s strengths, Shatter is still the go-to build if you’re goal is to kill fast and hard and rip boons while you’re at it. Shatter does not need to rely on interrupts to work properly or to net damage, shatter outputs heavier damage more often, and shatter is much more trusted and predictable in team comps.

And to pull from my interview with Supcutie..

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• Do you feel standard shatter (4/4/0/0/6) is the only “viable” Mesmer comp? Why? Whats your favorite Mesmer playstyle BESIDES shatter?

Shatter is such a synergetic build it’s ridiculous. I think it’s most viable because it is so synergetic and has good cost-effectiveness in terms of traits, but also because of how Mesmer needs to be played based on it’s strengths/weaknesses.
My favorite Mesmer playstyle/build other than Shatter is lockdown/interrupt. With 4/4/6 using chaotic interruption/bountiful interruption/interrupt mantra instead of portal, and S/F GS. I have the build here: http://bit.ly/supcutielockdown You can use Hoelbrak/Traveler/or Pack runes instead of Lyssa.

• Beyond shatter, other Mesmer types have wormed their way into PvP. What other builds have impressed you the most? What roles do you think the following builds should play:

Impressed: Chaotic Interruption lockdown and the bunker mesmer spec that Zeromis showed me http://bit.ly/zeromisbunker.

anndd for some video comparison! Check out:

Jurica’s Shatter Videoguide

Holl’s Chaotic Interruption PvP Montage

Now to make my opinion clear: I have no idea which spec is better. I enjoy CI more and I know it is constantly underestimated/underutilized and that you cannot play CI the same way you play Shatter, the rules are far different and new skills/habits need to be learned. That being said, I do not think that “no one is playing it in tournaments” is a good argument against CI with the meta being so unfavorable to Mesmer in general and most teams are not experimenting with Mesmer comps anyway, much less experimenting beyond shatter.

So what is the deciding factor? What puts Shatter above CI or vice-versa? What say you?

what say I? the same thing i said in the other thread…

It’s personal and one build might not mesh well with someone while it does for someone else.

I play better with CS or IP than i ever have or will do with CI. Not to say i don’t appreciate a decent CI mesmer on my team when i’m rolling shatter.

I will attempt not to be biased here, as everyone knows I play CI mes more. This is also assuming that both mesmers are running similar utilities (Mantra blink and portal for CI, blink decoy portal for shatter)

Shatter: High risk, very high reward.

Pros: Extreme aoe spike damage. A ton of aoe boon removal. Can be a great 1v1er and an excellent team fighter if the mes can survive. Underestimated mobility with blink and portal.

Cons: If not played correctly, it is useless. Hard countered by s/d thief. Not a lot of cc. Very squishy.

CI: Extreme risk, extreme reward.

Pros: Has a ridiculous amount of cc with CI which can end a 1vx or team fight. Chaos tree is just an amazing tree in itself. Extremely underrated burst (I have killed many classes in less then 2 seconds just from 1 interrupt which leads to a 100-0 burst). Actually has a chance against thieves. Can shut down many meta specs (This spec makes d/d eles and necros just fall over and die, they cant deal with the amount of interrupts and immbos).

Cons: If not played correctly, it is completely useless and will just die. Not as much boon removal. Mobility can be slightly worse then shatter, but it depends on the build. May have to give up portal for mantra. Completely different playstyle then any other Mesmer build and takes time to learn.

Personally I think CI is better, but I am slightly biased since I am just better with CI then shatter because of how I play.

In short: Shatter more reliable most of the time while CI is an opportunist, it can shine but it can also really fail. Shatter builds have low cooldowns on shatters and clone skills (decoy). This means that they can kite and survive more reliably.

I do feel that the mesmer meta has sat a little static within its comfort zone, but other classes develop and move onto different pastures so it is only suiting that we must follow-up.

Some questions surrounding the issue and problems I would try to draw attention to on a more social level.

What has made people stick with Shatter builds for so long, is it fondness and mastery over the build which allow/ed/s players to push it to it’s maximum potential i.e trait variants, slot skill changes or is it time for a change in reaction to the cele-meta, if so is there a layman’s build that does well against this?

Nevertheless, should a Shatter Vs Lockdown/CI debate cross out development on either of the builds as its place in spvp/wvwvw or should players play with what they feel most comfortable with?

Same as warlord, I play and am better at CI so that is were I’m leaning towards. But shatter is it’s own genre and has undisputed burst. But honestly, I don’t play mesmer enough to be able to answer this question :/

But than again, look at me rek those teefs in my video :P (Just kidding, just lucky interrupts^^)

Quadox.7834:

In short: Shatter more reliable most of the time while CI is an opportunist, it can shine but it can also really fail. Shatter builds have low cooldowns on shatters and clone skills (decoy). This means that they can kite and survive more reliably.

That.. is not at all the short of… anything, dude. o_O

Shatter builds do not survive more reliably than CI at all. Theres no arguing that CI is significantly more survivable even with shatter having 4 second CD on decoy and a more frequent Distortion. CI doesn’t need to pop distortion nearly as often since it isn’t as squishy.

Both Shatter AND CI are opportunistic, but in different ways. Shatter has a more reliable BURST, yes, but the damage distance between the two isn’t that far apart. CI has more reliable, more frequent CC.

Again, I’m not saying CI is better but your facts don’t point out Shatter’s “clear” superiority.

Why is CI more survivable? The minor traits in chaos? the random boon for BI? The ability to ’rupt more?

In my experience it is just as squishy kittenter

CI needs a buff IMO it does not do enough the grand master minor trait in Chaos is crap as well

Everything in the shatter build is good every minor/major trait

CI is more survivable because of:

30 Chaos – Boon Duration & 300 toughness. This makes a difference, and synergizes with the entire tree. The boon duration extends the boons from Staff/Chaos Armor/Interrupts (usually from 3s to 4s).

Debilitating Dissipation – AoE weakness is nothing to sleep on.

Much higher access to protection Via interrupts and Illusionary Membrane (Chaos Minor)

Interrupts! Interrupts!

Nothing is wasted in the chaos line, only the last minor is less useful than the rest, but condition damage is a factor in a CI build. The problem is that a lot of peoples opinions of CI builds come from assumption or hearsay rather than personal experience.

CI doesn’t need a buff beyond removing the frivolous cripple on interrupt. Its already very strong.

Also to take into consideration is your roaming partner, in the OP it might seem like I’m strictly a shatter player, but I’ve also started to play lockdown against top tier teams.
This is very personal, but I like to play shatter Mesmer if I’m with a S/X or panic strike thief. CI has become my go to if we run a fresh air or burst guard.

Also I’m sure some of the more experienced lockdown players will disagree, but I’ve found myself having more issues in 1vX+no instant daze shatter or IP distort is noticable in clutch moments while playing CI. The trade off of course is being naturally more tanky, and thieves are a hell of a lot easier on CI.

I am a huuge fan of CI specs, but it does fall a bit short in overall usefulness, especially if you’re solo. Noone’s gonna take advantage of the interrupts, which sadly aren’t too reliable, because you will wanna keep them for significant spells. So you can’t really plan attacks because you have to react to your opponent.
It does need a little buff.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

CI is more survivable because of:

30 Chaos – Boon Duration & 300 toughness. This makes a difference, and synergizes with the entire tree. The boon duration extends the boons from Staff/Chaos Armor/Interrupts (usually from 3s to 4s).

Debilitating Dissipation – AoE weakness is nothing to sleep on.

Much higher access to protection Via interrupts and Illusionary Membrane (Chaos Minor)

Interrupts! Interrupts!

Yeah I know…

I do not think it is as significant as good positioning

AoE weakness gets cleansed so fast it is negligible – Ele/Shout War

3/4s of Protection… yeah I don’t think it’s going to save you from a Thief or 300 toughness

It is all really minor to me doesn’t make much of a difference the best way for a Mesmer to survive is to have good positioning and good usage of decoy/blink/f4 which shatter build helps with

It’s all preference in the end – which is why anyone would even use a Mesmer right now – There is no question there are way easier/effective classes to use right now

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Quadox.7834:

In short: Shatter more reliable most of the time while CI is an opportunist, it can shine but it can also really fail. Shatter builds have low cooldowns on shatters and clone skills (decoy). This means that they can kite and survive more reliably.

That.. is not at all the short of… anything, dude. o_O

Shatter builds do not survive more reliably than CI at all. Theres no arguing that CI is significantly more survivable even with shatter having 4 second CD on decoy and a more frequent Distortion. CI doesn’t need to pop distortion nearly as often since it isn’t as squishy.

Both Shatter AND CI are opportunistic, but in different ways. Shatter has a more reliable BURST, yes, but the damage distance between the two isn’t that far apart. CI has more reliable, more frequent CC.

Again, I’m not saying CI is better but your facts don’t point out Shatter’s “clear” superiority.

Toughness will matter somewhat, but not nearly as much as distort CD does. Also, CI has NO decoy at all (not just 4sec shorter cooldown). That is, unless you aren’t running portal / IoL and if you are in fact running decoy AND daze mantra on CI, then why not just run daze mantra and decoy on shatter? Point is, there is nothing that gives CI more frequent CC unless you are giving up distortion.

Edit: nowhere did i outright say that shatter is “clearly superior”. Imo shatter is more reliable, CI more opportunistic but possibly with greater reward (when things go right).

One point I’d like to add is that Lockdown builds tend to have, or at least in my case and Warlock’s, the use of focus for AoE CC. Also, they have the option to double trait Blink, though that’s more secondary.

What I’m trying to say is that CI Lockdown is probably more mobile than Shatter, it has better access to swiftness.

As for damage, I think that Lockdown has to build up a little more than Shatter, and needs a good bit more precision in how its worked, but it can equal or surpkittenter’s damage if done perfectly, though perfectly for Lockdown is a higher skill cap than perfectly for shatter. My line of thought is thus: With the combination of Halting Strike, Vulnerability from Interrupts, and Might from BI, Lockdown will quickly become more bursty than shatter if one can land an interrupts, making its reward much greater than Shatter’s.

In this sense, however, it is more so that shatter is more reliable, it doesn’t rely on interrupting the opponent, putting it all to how well you can perform the shatter combo. At that same point, shatter is more bottlenecked in what is can perform, meaning sneaky backstabs to burst people down, while Lockdown is more flexible in its capability as any of its potential interrupts can easily become the starting point of its burst combo.

…

…

And, since we’re talking about this, I proclaim Condition Shatter MtD to be the best~

Narkodx.1472:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

CI is more survivable because of:

30 Chaos – Boon Duration & 300 toughness. This makes a difference, and synergizes with the entire tree. The boon duration extends the boons from Staff/Chaos Armor/Interrupts (usually from 3s to 4s).

Debilitating Dissipation – AoE weakness is nothing to sleep on.

Much higher access to protection Via interrupts and Illusionary Membrane (Chaos Minor)

Interrupts! Interrupts!

Yeah I know…

I do not think it is as significant as good positioning

AoE weakness gets cleansed so fast it is negligible – Ele/Shout War

3/4s of Protection… yeah I don’t think it’s going to save you from a Thief or 300 toughness

It is all really minor to me doesn’t make much of a difference the best way for a Mesmer to survive is to have good positioning and good usage of decoy/blink/f4 which shatter build helps with

It’s all preference in the end – which is why anyone would even use a Mesmer right now – There is no question there are way easier/effective classes to use right now

On the topic of survivability, the thing I find Lockdown making harder to kill outright is a mix of what Chaos said, but with a greater emphasis on interrupts. These dazes and stuns and whatnot are all denying a potential source of damage each time they land, while at the same time adding to your damage. Along with the boons provided and the toughness had, it makes it harder to land “winning” hits on the mesmer before the mesmer has enough potential damage[Their power+might against the target’s vulnerability stacks and positioning[made rooted by iSwap and CI]] to burst you down the same kittenter.

Dondagora.9645:

And, since we’re talking about this, I proclaim Condition Shatter MtD to be the best~

Once there is a Sinister Amulet in PvP, maybe.

alvarez.3159:

Dondagora.9645:

And, since we’re talking about this, I proclaim Condition Shatter MtD to be the best~

Once there is a Sinister Amulet in PvP, maybe.

Nah, that’s counterproductive to going conditions instead of direct damage. With conditions you’re taking less immediate burst for greater survivability[Vitality and Toughness]. Like Lockdown, it’s a different playstyle.

But, nonetheless, we shouldn’t divert the topic. Another thread can be made if you want to discuss this further, though.

Narkodx.1472:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

CI is more survivable because of:

30 Chaos – Boon Duration & 300 toughness. This makes a difference, and synergizes with the entire tree. The boon duration extends the boons from Staff/Chaos Armor/Interrupts (usually from 3s to 4s).

Debilitating Dissipation – AoE weakness is nothing to sleep on.

Much higher access to protection Via interrupts and Illusionary Membrane (Chaos Minor)

Interrupts! Interrupts!

Yeah I know…

I do not think it is as significant as good positioning

AoE weakness gets cleansed so fast it is negligible – Ele/Shout War

3/4s of Protection… yeah I don’t think it’s going to save you from a Thief or 300 toughness

It is all really minor to me doesn’t make much of a difference the best way for a Mesmer to survive is to have good positioning and good usage of decoy/blink/f4 which shatter build helps with

It’s all preference in the end – which is why anyone would even use a Mesmer right now – There is no question there are way easier/effective classes to use right now

I didn’t say 4s of protection per fight I said far more frequent access to protection, both via prot-on-regen and via interrupts. And good positioning isn’t build-exclusive.

AoE weakness may get cleansed but is a CONSTANT application, granted more significant in smaller fights and adds not only as a cover condition but a damage boost for warlock.

Now separately its all minor, but it all adds up to make a noticeably harder to kill Mesmer. Its also worth noting that interrupts in themselves can very easily be a form of defense, ESPECIALLY versus thieves. Losing decoy(or blink) for mantra isn’t exactly entirely losing a form of defense.

I shouldn’t say that this build is better than this build or that the other build just simply sucks compared to some other build. Rather, everybody knows its uses and its downfalls in situations. My answer to all of this debate is this: Mesmers must know how to deal with certain situations, even if their strengths don’t amount to much against obstacles.

The Shatter builds are more dynamic since they can function in multiple places ranging from its massive spike damage from its Mind Wrack, strip boons with its Shattered Concentration trait, maintain its defensive power with the Staff skills and multiple stun-breaks from its utility, and maybe more that I’m not aware of.

The Chaotic Interruption build focuses on single target, but that single-target focus makes it significant as a proper user can inflict a maximum of 25x weakness. That can make even the bulkiest of tanks fall on their knees because the next burst supported by the 25x weakness will make sure it HURTS. And to make sure that it hurts horribly, the CI has its own crowd control like its immobilizatoin, chills, and cripples to make sure that opponents won’t survive the next lethal hit.

But then, maestros (I shall call practicing mesmers maestros from time to time :P) such as Chaos Archangel and Warlock of Chaos know that since they practiced it from time to time.

The answer shouldn’t be that one build supersedes the other, but the mesmer should know that builds in general will serve a purpose. CI, shatter, or anything else; whatever. Use whatever advantages you have and maximize it. This doesn’t say which build is better, rather which biuld fits with your playstyle and how you’ll impose it on PvP.

Hope someone understands from all of this cause everything looks like crazy rambling…

Quadox.7834:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Quadox.7834:

In short: Shatter more reliable most of the time while CI is an opportunist, it can shine but it can also really fail. Shatter builds have low cooldowns on shatters and clone skills (decoy). This means that they can kite and survive more reliably.

That.. is not at all the short of… anything, dude. o_O

Shatter builds do not survive more reliably than CI at all. Theres no arguing that CI is significantly more survivable even with shatter having 4 second CD on decoy and a more frequent Distortion. CI doesn’t need to pop distortion nearly as often since it isn’t as squishy.

Both Shatter AND CI are opportunistic, but in different ways. Shatter has a more reliable BURST, yes, but the damage distance between the two isn’t that far apart. CI has more reliable, more frequent CC.

Again, I’m not saying CI is better but your facts don’t point out Shatter’s “clear” superiority.

Toughness will matter somewhat, but not nearly as much as distort CD does. Also, CI has NO decoy at all (not just 4sec shorter cooldown). That is, unless you aren’t running portal / IoL and if you are in fact running decoy AND daze mantra on CI, then why not just run daze mantra and decoy on shatter? Point is, there is nothing that gives CI more frequent CC unless you are giving up distortion.

Edit: nowhere did i outright say that shatter is “clearly superior”. Imo shatter is more reliable, CI more opportunistic but possibly with greater reward (when things go right).

That is a good point, and definitely worth considering.

Part of what gives CI more frequent CC is the play style in itself, and the more flexible weapon options. CI requires interrupts to work properly, so techniques like chain-dazing become more important, focus becomes more valuable, Chaos Storm becomes far more deadly.

But like I said, I just don’t see a clear winner here and thats why I have a hard time figuring why shatter is more viable.

Having played nearly 800 ranked games during the Xmas test season exclusively as a solo queueer I feel like I can offer some good perspective from an environment that is going to be more akin to what an average forum reader can expect than high end tournament Mesmer icons.
I’ve spent most of my games as some variation of CI lockdown, but I’ve played dozens of games in all the various builds that sounded remotely viable to me:

• Double Ranged Shatter
• GS/SW+ Torch Shatter
• GS/SW + Focus CI
• Staff/SW+Focus CI
• SW+SW/various CS
• MtD Condition Shatter
• 0/6/2/6/0 Manta Bunker/Support

My preferred build is Staff/SW + Focus CI. My utilities are Blink/Null Field/Manta. Pack Runes. The main reasons I prefer this build over shatter is that it offers an on point presence and it has the ability to stand on point unlike GS which has to stand off point to be effective.

Shatter Mesmer has three completely unfavorable matchups: LB Ranger, Thief and Meditation Guardian. The consensus is that lockdown is way more favorable against thieves. Rapid fire is prime interrupt bait. Besides stopping the channel they are rooted which lets me easily close the gap and/or stack another immobilize via iLeap or Chaos Storm with another CI proc at which point its game over. Meditation Guardian is also easy to interrupt. In exchange for good matchups against these classes I feel like I’m a lot weaker to a GS Shatter Mesmer for the same reasons that the thief matchup doesn’t turn in our favor; your typical shatter build that you see at my level (GS+Sword Torch) just have a lot of ways to deal with immobilize.

As far as playing on point smart use of blurred frenzy/warden/interrupts lets you avoid off point ranged damage. The roots + short range blinks + huge chaos armor uptime lets you avoid up close damage without running off point. Between chaos armor/storm/bountiful interruption/pack runes you’ll have a good half dozen boons up at once.

As far as damage the shatter has the bounce/lower cd on mirror blade, more frequent shatters and IP. The bounce on mirror blade can wreck a single target but is unreliable as to if it actually goes off. Frequent shatters are good but it can be a bit of a double edged sword. You have increased clone generation and are under constant pressure to shatter before you lose illusions. This leads to missed phantasm attacks and unoptimal shatters. The IP damage benefit is very similar. It can net more damage, but you blow a gap closer/stun break to get the extra benefit and you’re not in melee range where you don’t want to be. Granted you can phase retreat back out to get some distance. To my previous point about point holding though you just blew two defensive cool downs offensively. The other major source of damage are GS autos (fire+air sigil FTW).

CI has greater damage per clone shattered due to the might+fury stacking and greater chances of actually landing the shatter due to the plethora of immobilize opportunities. You also tend to get more mileage out of your phantasms. One thing I forced myself to do over the past weeks is really lean on the sword auto more. It deals a lot of damage (compared to GS auto) and strips a boon. With the debuffs from CI you can usually get a chain off with relative impunity as well. Between the sword chain and nullfield you are still very effective at boon stripping (immobilize in null field ftw).

I’ve shattered one someone’s face + mirror blade for 10+k before. I’ve also rooted someone with a 3k halting strike proc while my iLock connected with a 7.5 crit followed by another 4 k from a mind wrack while they were still immobilized.

If I was on a team with some good bruisers/bunkers to hold the point I’d go shatter and pew pew with the best of them. The reality of random ranked queue is that you end up with 2 rangers and thief and your team and the flexibility of being able point hold while still doing huge bursts just tips the scale for me.

I’m aware that a lot of my points have as much to do with weapon/rune selection as with trait loadout.

I play 4/4/0/0/6 shatter, swapping between GS/Staff and GS/(Sword +Torch). However, I run a solo-queue build with Mantra of Distraction/Blink/Decoy (swapping out one of these for the cleansing mantra if I’m against a condition heavy team).

Compared to the build that I run, lockdown mesmers have two main advantages: Increased access to boons and the great setting-up potential of a CI immobilize. CI’s immobilize makes setting up for an illusionary leap + blade frenzy + wind wrack far easier, especially against thieves. However, the issue I have with it (from my limited experience playing some lockdown) is that it is quite unreliable: you not only have to interrupt, you also need to happen to have the sword equipped and be in range to actually hit the blurred frenzy. Sometimes, it works beautifully. Frequently, however, one of the elements just doesn’t line up. For instance, you get the interrupt, but you are out of range of the frenzy, or you get the interrupt, but you just don’t have 2+ clones in range for the mind wrack. In these instances, the immobilize + condition from CI is nice but isn’t game breaking.

Playing with persona, it is much more difficult to get your opponent to hold still for a perfect shatter (+ blurred frenzy if you play with sword). On the other hand, I think that a shatter mesmer’s damage potential is not so dependent on a “chain of events”. For a shatter mesmer, interrupts are just a way of disrupting the enemy and doing damage, not the first step in a burst chain. Illusionary Elasticity, gives a mesmer tremendous burst potential and makes staff clones a threat. Access to illusionist’s celerity also means more mirror blades/phantasms/decoys/phase retreats. The damage from compounding power adds up over time. Might on shatter closes the “boon gap” between the two specs a little. And IP, of course, is amazing, and actually makes interrupting with diversion far easier. A shatter mesmer has more opportunities to “dictate” when to deal damage and deals damage more consistently, whereas a CI mesmer, imo, has to wait for a good opportunity to interrupt and follow up.

So, in short, I think that CI mesmers have the opportunity for some epic plays (i.e. pulling someone off the point with an interrupt+immobilize which then allows for a decap) and have more opportunity to set up for a perfect burst. Shatter mesmers on the other hand are not so dependent on an interrupt for their damage and thus perform more reliably and consistently. That’s my analysis anyway.

One more thing: I am puzzled as to how lockdown mesmers can plausibly survive on point against good players. With my build, I have about the same amount of interrupts as a lockdown mesmer (IP Diversion, lllusionary wave, mantra, chaos storm vs Diversion, focus pull, mantra, chaos storm), so that can’t be the answer. Even with increased boon duration, spam from d/d eles and engis on point would still obliterate the zerker-amulet mesmer, and close range fights against necros ain’t pretty either. How is it possible that you survive in the thick of the melee, unless you’re doing the whole “go in, burst, run out” thing?(in which case the lack of damage in between bursts due to the lack of a GS quickly shows).

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Quadox.7834:

In short: Shatter more reliable most of the time while CI is an opportunist, it can shine but it can also really fail. Shatter builds have low cooldowns on shatters and clone skills (decoy). This means that they can kite and survive more reliably.

That.. is not at all the short of… anything, dude. o_O

Shatter builds do not survive more reliably than CI at all. Theres no arguing that CI is significantly more survivable even with shatter having 4 second CD on decoy and a more frequent Distortion. CI doesn’t need to pop distortion nearly as often since it isn’t as squishy.

Both Shatter AND CI are opportunistic, but in different ways. Shatter has a more reliable BURST, yes, but the damage distance between the two isn’t that far apart. CI has more reliable, more frequent CC.

Again, I’m not saying CI is better but your facts don’t point out Shatter’s “clear” superiority.

I balked at Quadox reply to.

I’m just going to add on to Chaos here, It is also actually far easier to predict (or flat out see coming) a Shatters burst than the start of a Interrupt assault. One dodge, evade, or damage mitigation skill and Shatter is at a loss. On the other side, any attempt from the enemy to act lands him directly into the CI/rupt/lockdown Mesmers game, and at that point its to late. Even if the target breaks free his stun breaks and condi cleanses are limited, and the CI mes’s interrupts bountiful. Having a lockdown Mes on your tail is the single most harrowing experience in the game, and that’s even if you’ve had experience dealing with them.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Quadox.7834:

In short: Shatter more reliable most of the time while CI is an opportunist, it can shine but it can also really fail. Shatter builds have low cooldowns on shatters and clone skills (decoy). This means that they can kite and survive more reliably.

That.. is not at all the short of… anything, dude. o_O

Shatter builds do not survive more reliably than CI at all. Theres no arguing that CI is significantly more survivable even with shatter having 4 second CD on decoy and a more frequent Distortion. CI doesn’t need to pop distortion nearly as often since it isn’t as squishy.

Both Shatter AND CI are opportunistic, but in different ways. Shatter has a more reliable BURST, yes, but the damage distance between the two isn’t that far apart. CI has more reliable, more frequent CC.

Again, I’m not saying CI is better but your facts don’t point out Shatter’s “clear” superiority.

I balked at Quadox reply to.

I’m just going to add on to Chaos here, It is also actually far easier to predict (or flat out see coming) a Shatters burst than the start of a Interrupt assault. One dodge, evade, or damage mitigation skill and Shatter is at a loss. On the other side, any attempt from the enemy to act lands him directly into the CI/rupt/lockdown Mesmers game, and at that point its to late. Even if the target breaks free his stun breaks and condi cleanses are limited, and the CI mes’s interrupts bountiful. Having a lockdown Mes on your tail is the single most harrowing experience in the game, and that’s even if you’ve had experience dealing with them.

Don’t wanna type too much but basically: A build with shorter cooldowns is generally more reliable because you aren’t punished as much for missing one. A longer answer would probably say that there is some unpredictability concerning mesmers without IP. Example is if someone destroys all your clones and you die because you weren’t able to use distortion. This could be considered farfetched i imagine.

i tried 3 builds and tested them against the meta comp
shatter Mesmer feels to me as more like a thief role . go in burst and go out and hide or run away. can do huge short aoe dmg and boon ripping but against the meta comp need to be very good player as the boons reapply and the dmg negated fast. so the only left is to find 2v1 3v2 and help and go out again.

CI mesmer – i can say if i fight against them i hate them all . against good player 1v1 its hard but its not design for 1v1 rather as group support with interrupt cc and some nice pressure . but again hambow warrior can fill this role with its hammer or necro with fear or engi with turrets kd. so… its more suitable with the current meta comp but again very hard to play it well

i like more the ci as it reminds me gw1 more .

(atm i like mtd the most to matter what ppl say about it)

Quadox.7834:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Quadox.7834:

In short: Shatter more reliable most of the time while CI is an opportunist, it can shine but it can also really fail. Shatter builds have low cooldowns on shatters and clone skills (decoy). This means that they can kite and survive more reliably.

That.. is not at all the short of… anything, dude. o_O

Shatter builds do not survive more reliably than CI at all. Theres no arguing that CI is significantly more survivable even with shatter having 4 second CD on decoy and a more frequent Distortion. CI doesn’t need to pop distortion nearly as often since it isn’t as squishy.

Both Shatter AND CI are opportunistic, but in different ways. Shatter has a more reliable BURST, yes, but the damage distance between the two isn’t that far apart. CI has more reliable, more frequent CC.

Again, I’m not saying CI is better but your facts don’t point out Shatter’s “clear” superiority.

I balked at Quadox reply to.

I’m just going to add on to Chaos here, It is also actually far easier to predict (or flat out see coming) a Shatters burst than the start of a Interrupt assault. One dodge, evade, or damage mitigation skill and Shatter is at a loss. On the other side, any attempt from the enemy to act lands him directly into the CI/rupt/lockdown Mesmers game, and at that point its to late. Even if the target breaks free his stun breaks and condi cleanses are limited, and the CI mes’s interrupts bountiful. Having a lockdown Mes on your tail is the single most harrowing experience in the game, and that’s even if you’ve had experience dealing with them.

Don’t wanna type too much but basically: A build with shorter cooldowns is generally more reliable because you aren’t punished as much for missing one. A longer answer would probably say that there is some unpredictability concerning mesmers without IP. Example is if someone destroys all your clones and you die because you weren’t able to use distortion. This could be considered farfetched i imagine.

Yeah, I’ve been running 6, 6, 2 (assassins) with no DE for months now and I rarely if ever use F4 (unnecessary). I also have a low (if at all) death rate over the course of a match. Reliance on F4 is tied directly to the shatter build setup and in particular the typical weapons/utils you need to take with it. And just in case it needs to be said, there’s nothing wrong with using F4 if you’ve got it.

Selya.5039:

I play 4/4/0/0/6 shatter, swapping between GS/Staff and GS/(Sword +Torch). However, I run a solo-queue build with Mantra of Distraction/Blink/Decoy (swapping out one of these for the cleansing mantra if I’m against a condition heavy team).

Compared to the build that I run, lockdown mesmers have two main advantages: Increased access to boons and the great setting-up potential of a CI immobilize. CI’s immobilize makes setting up for an illusionary leap + blade frenzy + wind wrack far easier, especially against thieves. However, the issue I have with it (from my limited experience playing some lockdown) is that it is quite unreliable: you not only have to interrupt, you also need to happen to have the sword equipped and be in range to actually hit the blurred frenzy. Sometimes, it works beautifully. Frequently, however, one of the elements just doesn’t line up. For instance, you get the interrupt, but you are out of range of the frenzy, or you get the interrupt, but you just don’t have 2+ clones in range for the mind wrack. In these instances, the immobilize + condition from CI is nice but isn’t game breaking.

Playing with persona, it is much more difficult to get your opponent to hold still for a perfect shatter (+ blurred frenzy if you play with sword). On the other hand, I think that a shatter mesmer’s damage potential is not so dependent on a “chain of events”. For a shatter mesmer, interrupts are just a way of disrupting the enemy and doing damage, not the first step in a burst chain. Illusionary Elasticity, gives a mesmer tremendous burst potential and makes staff clones a threat. Access to illusionist’s celerity also means more mirror blades/phantasms/decoys/phase retreats. The damage from compounding power adds up over time. Might on shatter closes the “boon gap” between the two specs a little. And IP, of course, is amazing, and actually makes interrupting with diversion far easier. A shatter mesmer has more opportunities to “dictate” when to deal damage and deals damage more consistently, whereas a CI mesmer, imo, has to wait for a good opportunity to interrupt and follow up.

So, in short, I think that CI mesmers have the opportunity for some epic plays (i.e. pulling someone off the point with an interrupt+immobilize which then allows for a decap) and have more opportunity to set up for a perfect burst. Shatter mesmers on the other hand are not so dependent on an interrupt for their damage and thus perform more reliably and consistently. That’s my analysis anyway.

One more thing: I am puzzled as to how lockdown mesmers can plausibly survive on point against good players. With my build, I have about the same amount of interrupts as a lockdown mesmer (IP Diversion, lllusionary wave, mantra, chaos storm vs Diversion, focus pull, mantra, chaos storm), so that can’t be the answer. Even with increased boon duration, spam from d/d eles and engis on point would still obliterate the zerker-amulet mesmer, and close range fights against necros ain’t pretty either. How is it possible that you survive in the thick of the melee, unless you’re doing the whole “go in, burst, run out” thing?(in which case the lack of damage in between bursts due to the lack of a GS quickly shows).

This is pretty much how I feel on this matter. I’m certainly not the best mesmer out there but from my experience, the potential effectiveness of CI is far greater than shatter. If you are landing/chaining interrupts you can be absolutely devastating and the potential amount of AoE CC you can have in a team fight is ridiculous. But the key words there are ‘If’ and ‘Potential’. Your effectiveness is very much dependent on landing/chaining interrupts. And, to me at least, it is that dependancy that makes Shatter a better option in the majority of situations. Shatter’s damage is higher, faster, more frequent and considerably more consistant and reliable.

But man oh man. When things do go right when you are playing lockdown, it is truly glorious.

Locking down everyone on a point and watching as you and your team obliterate them…priceless.

Running 6/2/6 taking both CS and CI and chain stunning/dazing/interrupting/immob’ing a warrior while you just nonchalantly 100-0 him. And afterwards having him say, “Well aren’t you a little <insert four letter word beginning with a ‘C’ here>”…priceless

There is nothing that I have done while playing shatter that has given me more satisfaction than my best moments while playing lockdown. I really do hope that the expansion brings us something to make lockdown builds even better.

PandaBear.7510:

This is pretty much how I feel on this matter. I’m certainly not the best mesmer out there but from my experience, the potential effectiveness of CI is far greater than shatter. If you are landing/chaining interrupts you can be absolutely devastating and the potential amount of AoE CC you can have in a team fight is ridiculous. But the key words there are ‘If’ and ‘Potential’. Your effectiveness is very much dependent on landing/chaining interrupts. And, to me at least, it is that dependancy that makes Shatter a better option in the majority of situations. Shatter’s damage is higher, faster, more frequent and considerably more consistant and reliable.

But man oh man. When things do go right when you are playing lockdown, it is truly glorious.

Locking down everyone on a point and watching as you and your team obliterate them…priceless.

Running 6/2/6 taking both CS and CI and chain stunning/dazing/interrupting/immob’ing a warrior while you just nonchalantly 100-0 him. And afterwards having him say, “Well aren’t you a little <insert four letter word beginning with a ‘C’ here>”…priceless

There is nothing that I have done while playing shatter that has given me more satisfaction than my best moments while playing lockdown. I really do hope that the expansion brings us something to make lockdown builds even better.

This sums up CI vs shatter very well and is basically what every top mesmer agrees with after talking to all of them. Shatter does more reliable burst, but CI has the potential to destroy an entire team with interrupts, provided you can see the opportunity. Hopefully the new Mesmer specialization is chronomancer, which will probably have a ton of lockdown considering they control space and time

My experience from 3h 4/4/6 CI in WvW:
I suck at it in 1v1… especially against D/D eles… for some reason though, when I fight with allies (3v3, 4v4, 5v5) my performance went through the roof. Everything died so quickly. They couldn’t really do a thing. If I have time to think about what’s happening (e.g. not being focused in a fight^^) even I can do amazing things with this build.

And for some other reason, I exceeded at 1v3 battles. Had a few 1v3 battles, one of them in the enemies upgraded camp… I lost that one, but I managed to fight the camp, a necro, an engie and a guradian. The necro went down even^^ However, after my cool downs were through, I was too^^