Guild Wars 2

I enjoy the idea of this trait but it doesn’t force a cooldown on the thief. How do you feel about this? I’d like to see instead of a full 10 second lock, maybe place a 5 second lock on the skill since they run different mechanics. You could also look at locking down their initiative gain for 3 seconds per interrupt?

Just spit balling ideas but I’d just like this to be more viable a route for lockdown, but at the moment it seems useless since 1 class almost completely ignores it.

Thief losing initiative and skills usage CD is not enough?

Sagat.3285:

Thief losing initiative and skills usage CD is not enough?

Well, you’re actually wrong on both accounts.

First, most thief skills will not actually cost initiative if you interrupt them too early. This means that the thief will often just get off scot-free if you don’t actually interrupt them at the right part of the skill.

You also seem to think that power block puts thief skills on CD. This is incorrect. Power block has absolutely no effect on thief skills whatsoever. It used to, but it was patched out as apparently requiring thieves to put thought into their skill spam was not intended by Anet.

Not 10 sec CD but not reusable instantly, please don’t tell me you interrupted AA,thief has utilities as well,wasted initiative is enough just like chill imparing thief movement and utilities.

Sagat.3285:

Not 10 sec CD but not reusable instantly, please don’t tell me you interrupted AA,thief has utilities as well,wasted initiative is enough just like chill imparing thief movement and utilities.

I tested it with a guildy to make sure of it. Interrupting a thief’s proper SKILL, doesn’t put it on cooldown or even penalize it. The main “test” was the channeled P/P Unload. I interupted it with Power Lock, Illusionary Wave, Magic Bullet, and Temporal Curtain just to be thorough. It stopped the skill (big surprise, I interupted it) and then it was put on a 1 second cooldown which matched my 1 second daze. This means Power Block did nothing other than waste my investment vs thieves. Not to mention Power Lock itself is a 5 second cooldown between casts so it’s not as though I could double lock the thief and pretend I was spamming headshot lol.

That’s why I brought up the subject. Most thief skills are instant in the first place, interrupting them is a challenge as it’s more or less a 1-2 frame window. In the off chance you’re able to hit them dead on with a Power [B]Lock why shouldn’t it put them on an actual cooldown or carry some sort of penalty?

Because initiative is different than CD , skills are weaker because you can activate them multiple times,swap weapon still got the same initiative, initiative is too fragile but fits the role of thief. They weren’t meant to be is why. Every weapons carries specific downsides and especially post patch, don’t mention p/d it lacks mobility and just like d/d heavily reliant on CnD,missing it hurts.

Sagat.3285:

skills are weaker because you can activate them multiple times

Haha wat.

Yes, heartseeker is very weak. Yes, pistol whip, much weak. Yes, flanking strike/larcenous strike, incredibly weak. Oh yes, a teleport immobilize condition removal, very weak. Hm, a blinding field, oh yes quite weak. Yeah, you’re so wrong it hurts.

Sagat.3285:

swap weapon still got the same initiative, initiative is too fragile but fits the role of thief.

And so according to you, the role of thief is….to be completely immune to anything that might impact their unrestricted skill spamming?

Sagat.3285:

They weren’t meant to be is why. Every weapons carries specific downsides and especially post patch, don’t mention p/d it lacks mobility and just like d/d heavily reliant on CnD,missing it hurts.

Yes, every weapon has specific downsides. Guess who else that applies to…..no, you guessed wrong. The proper answer is…. EVERYONE ELSE. See, every class has downsides associated with their weapons. The difference is that when a mesmer with power block interrupts them, they get punished for it. Thieves don’t. Remind me why you’re so special again?

Edit: Honestly, you may as well just not continue this. Nobody here thinks you’re right, and with good reason. @OP: Until Anet decides that thieves should be punished for skill spamming, nothing will really change, but I suppose we can hope.

Sagat.3285:

Because initiative is different than CD , skills are weaker because you can activate them multiple times,swap weapon still got the same initiative, initiative is too fragile but fits the role of thief. They weren’t meant to be is why. Every weapons carries specific downsides and especially post patch, don’t mention p/d it lacks mobility and just like d/d heavily reliant on CnD,missing it hurts.

See this is a conflict of ideals.

Thief is built around initiative and ignoring weapon cooldowns for high burst.
Mesmer (roughly) is built around CONTROL and punishment.

Due to the design process, both of these directly oppose eachother. The problem I have, is that due to current design, Power Block has no effect on thieves. You’re saying it’s designed like that due to thief’s initial design, but that means it ignores OUR design as well.

As I said earlier, all I want it some effect on thieves. Whether it be a forced cooldown, INIT regen block for a few seconds or even INIT drain. I just want this trait to be as detrimental to thieves as it is to any other class.

@fay
I agree that ANET needs to see this issue and do something about it. That’s why I want to bring it into a real discussion. This really is an issue about design philosophies and flaws.

Just 1 class and you complain? Diamond skin can counter a whole set-up,condition necro own boon classes and has higher win rate against other condition builds…

Changing a class mechanic for 1 trait only seems very minor,very very minor.

Sagat.3285:

Just 1 class and you complain? Diamond skin can counter a whole set-up,condition necro own boon classes and has higher win rate against other condition builds…

Changing a class mechanic for 1 trait only seems very minor,very very minor.

Diamond skin doesn’t make something useless completely, just gives a buffer. I’m stating that there’s an inherent flaw with the design. You either don’t see it or simply want to pretend you don’t. Either way, that’s what I’m explaining. The problem is that it’s completely negated by thief, of any build.

Diamond skin is great, it’s also a 30 point investment, can still be hurt by physical damage, and doesn’t grant complete immunity. Power Lock is a 30 point investment that is ignored with no investment. You’ll notice I haven’t said that it’s “unfair” or “OP”, just that it’s bad mechanical design. I’m looking and suggesting for solutions for this.

Also it’s not just “1” trait =P it’s 1 GRANDMASTER trait.

KeyLimPi.9031:

Sagat.3285:

Just 1 class and you complain? Diamond skin can counter a whole set-up,condition necro own boon classes and has higher win rate against other condition builds…

Changing a class mechanic for 1 trait only seems very minor,very very minor.

Diamond skin doesn’t make something useless completely, just gives a buffer. I’m stating that there’s an inherent flaw with the design. You either don’t see it or simply want to pretend you don’t. Either way, that’s what I’m explaining. The problem is that it’s completely negated by thief, of any build.

Diamond skin is great, it’s also a 30 point investment, can still be hurt by physical damage, and doesn’t grant complete immunity. Power Lock is a 30 point investment that is ignored with no investment. You’ll notice I haven’t said that it’s “unfair” or “OP”, just that it’s bad mechanical design.

Just a tip. You won’t convince him that he’s wrong, just ignore him and he’ll go away.

Fay.2357:

Just a tip. You won’t convince him that he’s wrong, just ignore him and he’ll go away.

Eh, gives me something to do while I’m stuck “working”. Besides, if I do end up convincing him that there’s a flaw with the design of a class vs countertrait, maybe he can also spitball ideas.

How about double the initiative cost for the next use of the interrupted skill?

Really? Bad design is call over the place and I’m open-minded but nope you are not convincing me. Missing a skill on thief is very punishing,the first bad design would be to fix thief weapons THEN your GM trait over thief. Thief is becoming more reflexe and timing based than any other classes even more post patch.

keenlam.4753:

How about double the initiative cost for the next use of the interrupted skill?

Id prefer the thief just die of a stroke. Call it interrupt heartbeat.

Ross Biddle.2367:

keenlam.4753:

How about double the initiative cost for the next use of the interrupted skill?

Id prefer the thief just die of a stroke. Call it interrupt heartbeat.

Lol, that works too although Id prefer: turn the thief into a moa for 3s. The thief goes to downed state after the transformation ends or can the thief go downed as moa instead???
Interesting!

keenlam.4753:

How about double the initiative cost for the next use of the interrupted skill?

It’s possible but that seems a bit severe. For example base initiative is 12 and pistol whip costs 6. If you were to interrupt it then you’d full drain the thief’s initiative. Not a bad idea maybe enhance the next skills cost by 2-3 though.

Sagat.3285:

Really? Bad design is call over the place and I’m open-minded but nope you are not convincing me. Missing a skill on thief is very punishing,the first bad design would be to fix thief weapons THEN your GM trait over thief.

Bad design is all over the place, I agree. The problem with how you phrase it is saying “because there’s a ton of flaws, let’s look over other flaws”. I also agree, missing “certain” skills on thief is punishing. As stated before, if you’re interrupted right off the bat then no initiative is even taken. That makes the mesmer effectively waste his/her daze on you.

As for weapons vs GM “fixing”: Both thief weapons and the GM trait are in an overall good place. I couldn’t decide which I would prioritize ‘fixing’ first and would probably have them both worked on in a single balance patch considering those only come out once every 6 months in the first place. Most thief weapon combos are fine though, biased as it may be, I would probably give a slight prioritization on a GM trait they released knowing the philosophy of both mesmer and thief.

They knew thief runs on initiative and no cooldowns. They know that mesmers are a control class. Why would they then release a GM trait that’s negated fully by a class while not taking both those mechanics into account?

I was talking about this earlier this year, and thought of a few ideas.

Our interrupt [I had thought] takes the initiative the thief spent on the skill. If it apparently doesn’t, well, it should then. This is the replacement for a non-Power Block interrupted cool down on skills. ANet should make sure that if a thief skill is interrupted, it still costs them initiative, which I think may be a bug if it doesn’t.

Now, against thieves I believe our Power Block should not put them on normal CD, given that their mechanic is having a universal CD called initiative. Power Block should therefore drain from their initiative instead to increase their CD. The obvious, yet wrong solution, is to take as much initiative as the skill interrupted cost, thus doubling the amount the thief lost. This is too much, given that skills interrupted are all globally put on a 5 second CD, or 10 seconds with Power Block. Therefore, the extra initiative drained should be universal.

The best number of initiative to remove is 3, I think. Interrupt a Heart Seeker, you make it cost twice as much without any result. You interrupt a 6 initiative skill, you take 9 and make it so they can’t use it again[in most cases] right after the daze, but doesn’t eat their initiative whole. It punishes but doesn’t make them unable to fight on a lucky daze.

Dondagora.9645:

I was talking about this earlier this year, and thought of a few ideas.

Our interrupt [I had thought] takes the initiative the thief spent on the skill. If it apparently doesn’t, well, it should then. This is the replacement for a non-Power Block interrupted cool down on skills. ANet should make sure that if a thief skill is interrupted, it still costs them initiative, which I think may be a bug if it doesn’t.

Now, against thieves I believe our Power Block should not put them on normal CD, given that their mechanic is having a universal CD called initiative. Power Block should therefore drain from their initiative instead to increase their CD. The obvious, yet wrong solution, is to take as much initiative as the skill interrupted cost, thus doubling the amount the thief lost. This is too much, given that skills interrupted are all globally put on a 5 second CD, or 10 seconds with Power Block. Therefore, the extra initiative drained should be universal.

The best number of initiative to remove is 3, I think. Interrupt a Heart Seeker, you make it cost twice as much without any result. You interrupt a 6 initiative skill, you take 9 and make it so they can’t use it again[in most cases] right after the daze, but doesn’t eat their initiative whole. It punishes but doesn’t make them unable to fight on a lucky daze.

Let see how many reasonable players agree with this “proposition” . Let’s allow 1 interrupt to put thief into submission mode used initiative isn’t enough.

Sagat.3285:

Really? Bad design is call over the place and I’m open-minded but nope you are not convincing me. Missing a skill on thief is very punishing,the first bad design would be to fix thief weapons THEN your GM trait over thief. Thief is becoming more reflexe and timing based than any other classes even more post patch.

You should rephrase a bit; Missing your <skill here> with <profession here> is very punishing. It’s not just thieves. Also, if you miss your CnD, you can swap to Shortbow and shadowstep your way out with Infiltrator’s Arrow. You can use Hide in Shadows to gain Stealth and get out. You can use Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, Shadowstep/Shadow Return, Roll for Initiative+Withdraw. There are so many options for retreat on missing a skill like Cloak and Dagger. If you are punished that badly, perhaps you’re just bad (until you get some practice) at playing the Thief profession, sorry but it’s the harsh reality..

It’s also nearly impossible to miss a opener CnD (unless you’re fighting a decent player who has/is playing Thief, but not necessarily when you battle them). Tap CnD and instantly Steal(/Mug) when in range. You’ll shadowstep (and deal damage with Mug if traited, or at least removed the Aegis), and instantly go into stealth as the buffered CnD hits your target, allowing for a instant Backstab as you push through the enemy (don’t have collision on in the Options). Almost nobody is able to react to that, even if they know it’s coming, and you’ve in the matter of the blink of an eye done about 15k damage to pretty much anyone if you’re built glass. Should they by some miracle not be on the floor, you can spam Heartseeker for massive damage on their lowered health.. because you know, it’s a spammable skill that you can repeatedly “exploit” with initiative. The kind of skill you say is weaker because it’s possible to spam. Nope, not really true.

Absconditus.6804:

Sagat.3285:

Really? Bad design is call over the place and I’m open-minded but nope you are not convincing me. Missing a skill on thief is very punishing,the first bad design would be to fix thief weapons THEN your GM trait over thief. Thief is becoming more reflexe and timing based than any other classes even more post patch.

You should rephrase a bit; Missing your <skill here> with <profession here> is very punishing. It’s not just thieves. Also, if you miss your CnD, you can swap to Shortbow and shadowstep your way out with Infiltrator’s Arrow. You can use Hide in Shadows to gain Stealth and get out. You can use Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, Shadowstep/Shadow Return, Roll for Initiative+Withdraw. There are so many options for retreat on missing a skill like Cloak and Dagger. If you are punished that badly, perhaps you’re just bad (until you get some practice) at playing the Thief profession, sorry but it’s the harsh reality..

It’s also nearly impossible to miss a opener CnD (unless you’re fighting a decent player who has/is playing Thief, but not necessarily when you battle them). Tap CnD and instantly Steal(/Mug) when in range. You’ll shadowstep (and deal damage with Mug if traited, or at least removed the Aegis), and instantly go into stealth as the buffered CnD hits your target, allowing for a instant Backstab as you push through the enemy (don’t have collision on in the Options). Almost nobody is able to react to that, even if they know it’s coming, and you’ve in the matter of the blink of an eye done about 15k damage to pretty much anyone if you’re built glass. Should they by some miracle not be on the floor, you can spam Heartseeker for massive damage on their lowered health.. because you know, it’s a spammable skill that you can repeatedly “exploit” with initiative. The kind of skill you say is weaker because it’s possible to spam. Nope, not really true.

What made you assume I play d/d I don’t ,not sure what game mode you are talking about the longer I disengage the higher the higher the chance of getting out of combat fully healing foe,while SR is on CD or maybe while I am busy on a combo field my foe will run away. Choking Gas change also affect that and not everyone out there is zerker or glass, ty the game for valkyrie usable on power thief.

Back to original topic, submission is bad even condi necro>engi is not that dominant.

Sagat.3285:

Dondagora.9645:

I was talking about this earlier this year, and thought of a few ideas.

Our interrupt [I had thought] takes the initiative the thief spent on the skill. If it apparently doesn’t, well, it should then. This is the replacement for a non-Power Block interrupted cool down on skills. ANet should make sure that if a thief skill is interrupted, it still costs them initiative, which I think may be a bug if it doesn’t.

Now, against thieves I believe our Power Block should not put them on normal CD, given that their mechanic is having a universal CD called initiative. Power Block should therefore drain from their initiative instead to increase their CD. The obvious, yet wrong solution, is to take as much initiative as the skill interrupted cost, thus doubling the amount the thief lost. This is too much, given that skills interrupted are all globally put on a 5 second CD, or 10 seconds with Power Block. Therefore, the extra initiative drained should be universal.

The best number of initiative to remove is 3, I think. Interrupt a Heart Seeker, you make it cost twice as much without any result. You interrupt a 6 initiative skill, you take 9 and make it so they can’t use it again[in most cases] right after the daze, but doesn’t eat their initiative whole. It punishes but doesn’t make them unable to fight on a lucky daze.

Let see how many reasonable players agree with this “proposition” . Let’s allow 1 interrupt to put thief into submission mode used initiative isn’t enough.

I intend to find out~

Okay, to be fair, when fighting a mesmer, thieves have halved stealth durations. Class mechanic vs Class Mechanic.

Does this seem fair to you sagat? (no offense of course)

StickerHappy.8052:

Okay, to be fair, when fighting a mesmer, thieves have halved stealth durations. Class mechanic vs Class Mechanic.

How…?

@don

Since sagat said that interrupt is only 1 class mechanic, and they do not work that well on thieves, so just give us equal handicaps right?

I agree that thieves, whatever their class mechanic is should not be excluded from something that other classes experience.

EX: Chill Effects, Interrupts.

Power block should be reviewed to add 10 sec on cooldown.
not to give 10 sec cooldown.
if you interrupt without power most of class beside thief get 5 sec cool down.
with power block it should be 15 sec not 10.

And yes thief are not affected.

Dondagora.9645:

StickerHappy.8052:

Okay, to be fair, when fighting a mesmer, thieves have halved stealth durations. Class mechanic vs Class Mechanic.

How…?

I am wondering how is stealth related to CD and would that factor when thief is in squad even stealth and interrupt are not class mechanics…seems very specific also. Any initiative costing skill interrupted should lose the initiative and have the 3 sec CD before reusage, I’m already ware of the designed weaknesses of thief CD is not one of them.

Sagat.3285:

What made you assume I play d/d I don’t ,not sure what game mode you are talking about the longer I disengage the higher the higher the chance of getting out of combat fully healing foe,while SR is on CD or maybe while I am busy on a combo field my foe will run away.

It doesn’t matter what weapons you play with. The whole point was, thieves have so many backup abilities to escape with that it’s not even funny. Missing a skill now and again is not going to destroy you as a Thief. Nor will getting one skill placed on a CD. That’s what it should do, even though there’s no actual CD’s on Thief skills normally, the skill should still get a cooldown period if it is hit with a Power Block interrupt. What’s so wrong with that? Every other profession suffers from not being able to use one interrupted skill, why should thieves be exempt from this?

And of course, disengaging is technically forfeiting, that’s pretty much the whole idea. And a Thief is.. a hit and run profession. If it fails, you reset. You avoid death, and can shortly afterwards try again. Sure, the enemy may have regenerated, but so have you.

I don’t see why it’s so unreasonable for someone to want to be able to place cooldowns on a skill of yours, if they manage to miraculously interrupt it, after having spent 6 points into a Trait line for said functionality.

hmmm, someone said in the tread that power block should increase initiative cost of the skill. Maybe add extra 2 or 3 initiative cost to a successful interrupt?

Thevies are already an hard counter to mesmer because of class design and these special exception that mesmer has to face.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Why-are-mesmers-designed-to-be-thief-food/first

Guys, this might sound crazy but, what if thieves actually just had to deal with CD’s on interrupted skills just like everyone else and for the same 10s duration?

no?

bad design to force players to think twice and maybe actually be scared of a Mesmer?

Mesmer’s need more hard counters than we already have?

ok.. carry on attempting to change how the entire thief profession works instead then.

Going by the balance team’s track record, the way they’d fix this would be to make Power Block only work on utility skills for everyone.

Clownmug.8357:

Going by the balance team’s track record, the way they’d fix this would be to make Power Block only work on utility skills for everyone.

I lol’d until the moment I realized you might be right. <_<"

What is the difference on interupting a thief with and without the trait ?

Kicast.1459:

What is the difference on interupting a thief with and without the trait ?

If the interrupted skill is thief’s weapon skill, then voila! Absolutely no difference. Hence this thread, because some people (perhaps ANet included) deemed having CD on thief’s weapon skill is an atrocity while other professions are having 10s CD.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Kicast.1459:

What is the difference on interupting a thief with and without the trait ?

If the interrupted skill is thief’s weapon skill, then voila! Absolutely no difference. Hence this thread, because some people (perhaps ANet included) deemed having CD on thief’s weapon skill is an atrocity while other professions are having 10s CD.

This does not sound good game design…what is wrong with anet ?
Why so much and consistent hate on mesmers…why trying so hard to remove anything that could make mesmer shine.

Trait x: does good thing…but not against thief
Pvp: can have added value to a team..but not if there is a thief
Nice 1v1 (class design) but not against thief
Very good dps but les than thieve

Anet summarized its view pretty well: mesmer is about support…they don’t want to bring them nice aoe …because this belong to eles.
This is why they have:
Veil
Portal
Time warp

But this is crappy support…no point taking a mesmer for that…apart for puzzle jump.

Again a big fail in vision: game design….

I myself got rid of my mesmer to take a real support profession : guard.
Guess what ? I am 100 times better at support…have 100 time more sustain…and deal much more damage (at least on big fights)

Kicast.1459:

I myself got rid of my mesmer to take a real support profession : guard.
Guess what ? I am 100 times better at support…have 100 time more sustain…and deal much more damage (at least on big fights)

This is funny because it’s on the big fights (where your Phantasms don’t die) that Mesmers will outshine a Guardian, especially when it’s not in a 5 man group, so having the defensive sharing that Guardian has is really sub-optimal. Take any World Boss (except Taquito and Bear Claw). You can pretty much just drop 3 Warlocks and camp GS or Sword. That’s pretty much guaranteed 5k dps before counting your auto attacks, assuming you aren’t traited for Phantasm DPS. (Appropriate downleveling is necessary, but it’s still possible to have Warlocks hit numbers like 1-2k on Shadow Behemoth).

Additionally, with all 3 Phantasms alive, Mesmer DPS jumps to be pretty high, among the Ele/Thief range. Of course, since it’s not… “plug and play” dps, it’s why we’re pretty useless (one of the lowest dps unless the conditions are right). When doing trash clears/runs, Mesmer has little AoE (Sword Cleave only on 2 skills, all other AoE attacks on ridiculous cooldowns, bar Beam attacks) and relatively high cooldowns.

Back on topic, though, I doubt this will be addressed… Woooo… another hotfix that will never be addressed. Prove me wrong, Anet, I dare you to.

Mesmer is already the best/op duelist class if you dont fight with people siting in a point. Thief one of the only natural viable counter is getting a nerf to sword and pistol offhand at the class balance. No need for more thief nerf. Might as well rename the mesmer class for Duelists if it get even more buffs.

Esplen.3940:

This is funny because it’s on the big fights (where your Phantasms don’t die) that Mesmers will outshine a Guardian

Phantasms don’t die on big fights ??? What is your secret ? Tell me please…I have obviously missed something important here.

xDudisx.5914:

Mesmer is already the best/op duelist class if you dont fight with people siting in a point. Thief one of the only natural viable counter is getting a nerf to sword and pistol offhand at the class balance. No need for more thief nerf. Might as well rename the mesmer class for Duelists if it get even more buffs.

I hope by duelist you’re not referring to PU shenanigans. Because you know, Power Block is a heavy 6 trait investment into domination (leaving you to choose between PU or DE). Interruption or shatter play-style don’t exactly have low skill floor (especially in dueling). Maybe phantasm play-style can best thieves in equal skill level due to its great later stage offense, but if thief pressure the mesmers hard enough they still have a lead before phantasm mesmer set up.

It is perfectly logical that when you see Power Block-mesmer all set up with phantasms or clones you’ll want to remove them with shortbow. If you’re still insisted on close range burst with Sw/P at that stage then you SHOULD be risking, not simply face roll due to your so-called counter, because it also takes time, endurance and weapon skills for mesmer to set up properly.

I play thief and Sw/P is definitely not the only viable option against mesmers. Even just hitting shortbow 1 can bounce your arrow between illusions and “clean them out” from a distance (shortbow 2 is more efficient at that with just the requirement to aim), away from clone death damage. Mug + FS/LS + air/fire sigil proc from Sw/D still have massive instant damage against mesmers, and nerf to FS is the one that you should be worry about, not Sw/P. Dancing dagger from dagger offhands is still useful in removing illusions. Although predictable, D/P still have great single target damage. And don’t even get me started on P/D condition build, they snared at clone death due to how precise they can attack in range. P/P…er…not sure why you run that, since it considered sub par in a lot of situations even among the thieves. For lower skill level thieves, all the above thief weapon sets can operate without actually focusing on mesmer’s animation (in contrast, higher skill level thieves are careful with timing). What about Power Block? It requires mesmers to concentrate on thief’s movement (which most have activation time shorter than 1s, see GW2 Wiki), time through or before thieves’ evade frame (as well as consider mesmer’s own animation time), and deliver the interrupt before the skill ends. I’d say that requires much higher skill floor than pulling off normal thief combos. But what interruption reward does mesmers get? Nothing! This is the reason why interruption mesmers prefer CI over PB, because CI can at least immobilize their opponents.

Btw you said Sw/P is mesmer’s hard counter that’s getting nerf with the new patch, how? Black powder was never effective against mesmers, and such nerf will be unlikely to make it worst. If you’re worried about pistol whip, don’t. Because clone death will also be evade-able after the patch. So pistol whip from Sw/P can evade clone death traits, along with its cleaving ability and stun it’s still a hard counter against mesmers. Does that make you less worried? If not then you can always resort to shortbow for clearing out illusions before you shadowstep + pistol whip on the real mesmer.

If you’re worried about shatter, then use your stealth, evade and timing properly. Shattering illusions do not trace stealthed opponents (whether they stealth before or after shatter command is delivered, which I think is a huge flaw in AI), nor do they go through evades. Shatter skills also have relatively longer CD (and thieves laugh at CD), not to mention you can also remove their primary damage source through bouncing arrow/dancing dagger and cleaves.

Kicast.1459:

Esplen.3940:

This is funny because it’s on the big fights (where your Phantasms don’t die) that Mesmers will outshine a Guardian

Phantasms don’t die on big fights ??? What is your secret ? Tell me please…I have obviously missed something important here.

What’s your definition of a big fight?

My definition of a big fight is like…

Taidha Covington, Shadow Behemoth, Lupicus, etc.

Most of which you can have/maintain 3 Phantasms relatively easily (well, Lupicus not so much after Phase 1, but Mesmer can easily one shot him).

Esplen.3940:

Kicast.1459:

Esplen.3940:

This is funny because it’s on the big fights (where your Phantasms don’t die) that Mesmers will outshine a Guardian

Phantasms don’t die on big fights ??? What is your secret ? Tell me please…I have obviously missed something important here.

What’s your definition of a big fight?

My definition of a big fight is like…

Taidha Covington, Shadow Behemoth, Lupicus, etc.

Most of which you can have/maintain 3 Phantasms relatively easily (well, Lupicus not so much after Phase 1, but Mesmer can easily one shot him).

Ok sorry bro…I was not clear enough…I was talking about wvw. And big fights is 15 + vs 15 +

Kicast.1459:

Esplen.3940:

Kicast.1459:

Esplen.3940:

This is funny because it’s on the big fights (where your Phantasms don’t die) that Mesmers will outshine a Guardian

Phantasms don’t die on big fights ??? What is your secret ? Tell me please…I have obviously missed something important here.

What’s your definition of a big fight?

My definition of a big fight is like…

Taidha Covington, Shadow Behemoth, Lupicus, etc.

Most of which you can have/maintain 3 Phantasms relatively easily (well, Lupicus not so much after Phase 1, but Mesmer can easily one shot him).

Ok sorry bro…I was not clear enough…I was talking about wvw. And big fights is 15 + vs 15 +

Then my secret is running Disruptor’s Sustainment…

I mean Triumphant Distortion… I think? I dunno, they’re all bad.

“Power Block applies Revealed for 5s on interrupt.” (in addition to current effect.)

How does that sound?

Sounds like one of the Revealed love changes they had last feature pack. This one is more about making underwhelming changes that somehow manage to still bend us over.

Kadj.6725:

“Power Block applies Revealed for 5s on interrupt.” (in addition to current effect.)

How does that sound?

I’m not sure for 5 secs but why does every counter a class wants AGAINST THIEF has be stealth related? How come I’ve never heard of STEALING ENDURANCE on mesmer but nah everyone want the ALMIGHTY REVEALED DEBUFF?! It’s always about countering stealth with that countering stealth with this…when stealth is mechanism of only 1 trait line, THE MESMER CHAOS LINE DOES NOT HAVE TO GO STEALTH.

Stealing endurance isn’t going to slow down a thief that much. Weakness already reduces endurance gain.

Revealed is good in this case because it doesn’t oust a single class specifically. Good game design in the case of MMOs is that no skill should work differently for a specific class(unless for ALL classes, like Steal) within mechanical reason – Power Block not working against thieves makes sense from that obscure point. Ergo, we go with an effect that indirectly targets thieves, and it also has the strange side-effect of screwing with area stealths affecting non-thieves.

I suggest Revealed here because it is a counter to a mechanic that… really needs a legitimate counter. This doesn’t apply revealed for free; it has to actually interrupt someone, and if they happen to be in stealth at the time… their stealth skill on full cooldown is the price they paid for expecting a free getaway. (More accurately, for not actually getting away. What kind of actual thief stays around long enough to commit murder??)

It isn’t a perfect solution by any stretch, since of course non-stealth thieves will still get off scott-free. However, it’s the only solution I can currently think of that retains the current effects without requiring players to memorize “oh, this skill works differently against a very specific class”. Anet has made it very clear they want to avoid that kind of thing while in the pursuit of balance.

If non-stealth thieves won’t get that debuff, then it still works in thieves’ favor and shouldn’t create too much outcry. Only 3 skills can reliably do AoE interrupt without target, and even then you can’t really read thieves’ movement without seeing them. That’s iWave, Chaos storm and focus pull (+1 for self diversion if trait IP), all of which is on high CD. Counter blade from sword has really small projection so it is also hard to aim. Best you can do is guess or count the time, both of which are kind of unreliable. Idk if this is the best change but it sure is interesting and at least its a start :P.

*at least its an alternative start since bumping against the CD/initiative wall may do us no good :P

Kadj.6725:

“Power Block applies Revealed for 5s on interrupt.” (in addition to current effect.)

How does that sound?

sounds bad to me….i want them to take the cooldown like all other prof….having a bunny s/d thief spamming evade skills on your head is the pain we need to get rid off.

no special treatment for any prof