Pu mesmers in WvW need a change
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Anet doesn’t balance around WvW roaming, sorry.
I understand your frustration. But it’s been said before, and it will be said again: The game isn’t (can’t be) balanced around WvW roaming. It just won’t work.
Also, (as has been said before), roaming is a weird kind of beast. It basically requires a class that can 1vX multiple enemies, and can avoid/escape groups or enemies that you can’t face down. There are probably 3 or 4 builds right now that can handle that effectively. Is PU Condi the near the top? Yeah, probably.
But the biggest point is this: Roaming just doesn’t matter that much. I enjoy it, it sounds like you enjoy it, but we make pretty minimal impact to the overall WvW “score.” I can circle a borderland capping camps, even solo a tower here or there if I’m on a low tier and it’s an off-time. I can do something similar in EB. But at the end of the day, anything I do can be near-immediately undone by one or two enemies doing the exact same thing, likely in half the time.
Basically, I think it’s just not a high-priority problem for ANet. And it shouldn’t be.
EDIT: Sniped by Fay, with 1/10th of the words. And I’m ok with that.
EDIT: Sniped by Fay, with 1/10th of the words. And I’m ok with that.
I’ve seen this drivel too many times to bother typing up a long post to respond to it.
To add to all that is stated above, mesmers cannot perma-stealth. We can get close at the cost of a lot of damage, but it has been proven to be impossible.
Now, if you want to beat a PU mesmer, try a condi trap ranger. Lay your traps randomly around the area you’re fighting and bring a torch. Rabid gear laughs at bursts, mesmers have a weakness to conditions that some common builds don’t cover and clones die almost instantly when they pop traps. With the right runes, you can stealth too and gain super speed. With enough practice, PU mesmers will fear you.
Anet doesn’t balance around WvW roaming, sorry.
It’s always surprising that people bring it up as if it should be a balancing point, no?
Completely ignoring that the logistics of balanced soon-to-be-9 classes with a myriad spec and gear combinations each for 1v1 situations would be unmanageable.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Are we talking about mesmer or thief because literally everything you complained about thief has, and still does describe thief.
Inb4 Cynz and a tirade about counter play to thief stealth. A smart thief while there is some counter play will be able to stealth whenever.
So my question to the OP is, why is it ok for a thief to do all that you complained about on a greater level (they have more stealth, blinds, ability to reset and you can’t escape them) and not for a mesmer?
If you say it’s because they’re squishy, everything in zerker is squishy with Mesmer having about a 4k buffer in HP.
So my question to the OP is, why is it ok for a thief to do all that you complained about on a greater level (they have more stealth, blinds, ability to reset and you can’t escape them) and not for a mesmer?
Everyone has given up complaining and accepted thieves as the overlords of the roaming “scene”.
N*** Dew Gunnar’s Hold
WvW Roaming with Mesmer
WvW Roaming with Mesmer
Well actually yes thiefs do have a lot of stealth, but they have to set it up such as leaping thorugh a blind field, shadow refuge, gotta get close and CnD etc, and their spike is not from lets say 900 and then whatever staff is im not sure. (like a mesmer) Also i did not say that mesmers have perma stealth, as i stated i play mesmer and ive played a lot of (shatter) mesmer and i know how much stealth they have. And as for the guy who mentioned using conditions, no just no. Having a dire or even a rabids set i dont find fun, i like builds that do dmg (such as beserker etc) Idk how people find it fun to be a tanky lil guy and being able to make 100 mistakes and still win just because their dire condi or whatever, its not enjoyable.
-Whenever i see a mesmer i think kittens more dire trash, and when i see a shatter mesmer i am legitimately surprised because non condi mesmers are so rare.
Well actually yes thiefs do have a lot of stealth, but they have to set it up such as leaping thorugh a blind field, shadow refuge
They have access to utility skills and weapon skills for stealth, just like Mesmer, but more of them. They also have smoke fields and leap finishers on top of that. In short, they have to deal with some fields because they have more stealth in general than anyone. And frankly, pressing two buttons isn’t all that onerous of a “combo.”
gotta get close and CnD etc, and their spike is not from lets say 900 and then whatever staff is im not sure. (like a mesmer)
If only thieves had access to a multitude of buttons that were instant gap closers. Maybe those buttons could also apply benefits to the thief in some cases, and significantly harm the enemy… Ah well, pipe dreams.
And… Mesmer spikes at 900?
Also i did not say that mesmers have perma stealth, as i stated i play mesmer and ive played a lot of (shatter) mesmer and i know how much stealth they have. And as for the guy who mentioned using conditions, no just no. Having a dire or even a rabids set i dont find fun, i like builds that do dmg (such as beserker etc) Idk how people find it fun to be a tanky lil guy and being able to make 100 mistakes and still win just because their dire condi or whatever, its not enjoyable.
Aren’t we talking about condi mesmers? I can’t claim to be an expert of Thief WvW (I probably shouldn’t make a claim to expert of anything in this game), but tanky survival and attrition kind of seems like the name of the game. Hence why only a few builds are able to actually do it successfully. Sure, you can glass cannon from stealth, but then you need to suck it up when a burst fails or you get caught, and you die.
Unless this is just another “My zerker build should be able to solo roam without dying when I’m surprised, ambushed or outnumbered” post.
Whenever i see a mesmer i think kittens more dire trash, and when i see a shatter mesmer i am legitimately surprised because non condi mesmers are so rare.
Non-Condi Mesmers aren’t rare. They comprise basically the entirety of high-level (even mid-level) builds in sPvP and PvE.
And shatter vs. condi Mesmers? You must not play as much Mesmer as you think, because since the trait update, there are few viable (and no high-level) non-shatter WvW or PvP builds. In WvW roaming, if you encounter a Mesmer, it is almost certainly a shatter condi mesmer.
(edited by AtomsOrSystems.9420)
Having a dire or even a rabids set i dont find fun, i like builds that do dmg (such as beserker etc) Idk how people find it fun to be a tanky lil guy and being able to make 100 mistakes and still win just because their dire condi or whatever, its not enjoyable.
- Whenever i see a mesmer i think kittens more dire trash, and when i see a shatter mesmer i am legitimately surprised because non condi mesmers are so rare.
Condi shatter builds can be one of a hell of fun, they’re not inherently boring. You can melt people in seconds and they allow to face outnumbered fights, which requires tons of skill and are more stressful than duels with a power burst build.
They can also do tons of damage also, just they do it in a different way (more over time than instant bursts). However, you can still see 4k confusion + 3k torment + 1k bleeding + 700 burning in a second.
All this “condi builds are boring cause they’re easy” is just a nonsense idea of people who think their skill is elevated to the heaven because playing squishy power builds proclaims you as a skilled player.
There’s a reason why condi builds in pvp don’t work. Players there put their arrogance behind and let the clearance and smartness bright, by taking condi removal and not playing squishy builds when not needed.
Meanwhile, WvW is full of ganking zerker builds that die in a second from condies. Then they yell at you about noobing with condi builds, or come here to the forums to ask for nerfs…
Ansau – Sylvari Mesmer – Exiled Warriors [wE] – Gandara
i7 5775c @ 4.1GHz – 12GB RAM @ 2400MHz – RX 480 @ 1390/2140MHz
i7 5775c @ 4.1GHz – 12GB RAM @ 2400MHz – RX 480 @ 1390/2140MHz
You can melt people in seconds and they allow to face outnumbered fights, which requires tons of skill and are more stressful than duels with a power burst build.
PU + the pledge + passive dmg + high toughness ( and vitaly when using dire) must be so stressful to play.
As stressfull as condi trap thief.
VoxL, NSPPT
You can melt people in seconds and they allow to face outnumbered fights, which requires tons of skill and are more stressful than duels with a power burst build.
PU + the pledge + passive dmg + high toughness ( and vitaly when using dire) must be so stressful to play.
As stressfull as condi trap thief.
He’s talking about outnumbered fights specifically.
Give it a try, it doesn’t matter how long your stealth period is, when you’re outnumbered and you’ve only got 3 stealth skills on your bar, you will run out.
Maybe it’s not fair that pu condi can win a 2v1 in WvW roaming, but it’s been said before: WvW solo roaming pretty much requires being able to win 2v1 by definition.
The moment they try to balance it is the moment solo roaming stops being a thing entirely.
You’ll still get wrecked when you try to wander the Borderlands alone, it just won’t be a solo mesmer/thief/ele that kills you.
(edited by AlphatheWhite.9351)
AtomsofSystems your just not getting my point. Its not a complaint about zerk should be able to beat all, For instance i have a knights/zerk ranger GS/LB with full condi removal, so against pu condi memsers i remove all their condis, but i cant to enough dmg to them even though i am full dmg. So the fights last foreverrrrrrrrrr until i get bored and just leave. (or a friend of theres comes or a friend of mine shows up) This post is not abt thiefs opness whatsoever.
As for as condi dire being hard hahahahahaha. No. A lot of ppl run that condi build as a troll build, or a 1 v 5 build. For 1 v 1’s its not fun, just a faceroll. See your a tanky dude, full dire, so you have toughness and vitality, but you do more dmg then a glass cannon build,(as you say u kill people in seconds) and yet have all the blinds, defenses, blocks, stealth out. Thiefs that are dmg cannot make a mistake, unlike a dire mesmer.
AtomsofSystems your just not getting my point. Its not a complaint about zerk should be able to beat all, For instance i have a knights/zerk ranger GS/LB with full condi removal, so against pu condi memsers i remove all their condis, but i cant to enough dmg to them even though i am full dmg. So the fights last foreverrrrrrrrrr until i get bored and just leave. (or a friend of theres comes or a friend of mine shows up) This post is not abt thiefs opness whatsoever.
I’m sorry, I must be missing something. You’re complaining about pu condi mesmers, but then you just posted that you run a (ranger!) build that has so little difficulty against PU condi mesmers that it’s a boring fight and you just move on.
I don’t get it, are PU condi mesmers OP and hard to deal with, or aren’t they???
Also yes zerk mes are everywhere in spvp and PvE like you said (but this is abt wvw) in which case 1/5 mesmers are dmg builds, the rest have resorted to cheese condi builds. (At least in the tiers in which im playing which are on the t6-t8) Because it is easy to disengage if your outnumbered, its easier to win outnumbered fights more so then other classes. The post originally is about changing something about the mesmer. Make the blind traits have an internal Cooldown (not super long just enough), or change the pledge a bit, or change pu a lil bit and thats pretty much it.
Make the blind traits have an internal Cooldown (not super long just enough), or change the pledge a bit, or change pu a lil bit and thats pretty much it.
Well The Pledge is bugged to be adding 3x as much cdr as it should be, so fixing the bug would at least accomplish something. By the math, in fact, The Pledge is adding more stealth uptime to PU mesmers than PU itself is.
Just a change like that would be perfect, for pve i love all the stuff mes can do, but mes in wvw just needs a lil adjustment( i guess a small nerf you would call it) and i play all 8 classes not just ranger my ranger was just an example
Well actually yes thiefs do have a lot of stealth, but they have to set it up such as leaping thorugh a blind field, shadow refuge, gotta get close and CnD etc, and their spike is not from lets say 900 and then whatever staff is im not sure. (like a mesmer) Also i did not say that mesmers have perma stealth, as i stated i play mesmer and ive played a lot of (shatter) mesmer and i know how much stealth they have. And as for the guy who mentioned using conditions, no just no. Having a dire or even a rabids set i dont find fun, i like builds that do dmg (such as beserker etc) Idk how people find it fun to be a tanky lil guy and being able to make 100 mistakes and still win just because their dire condi or whatever, its not enjoyable.
-Whenever i see a mesmer i think kittens more dire trash, and when i see a shatter mesmer i am legitimately surprised because non condi mesmers are so rare.
Where do I even begin…
- Thieves can do spike damage from 900.
- Mesmers don’t use staff for damage. While it can be turned into a condi weapon with the right traits, out of the box, it’s a utility/survival weapon.
- Yes, you did claim that mesmers had perma stealth. In fact, you said, “Its not just the perma invis thats so bad…”
- If you prefer direct damage over conditions, fine. That’s really a personal choice. However, you had better be prepared to fight people that prefer condi.
- Berzerker stats make you a glass cannon. That is a high risk/high reward playstayle. You either accept that fact or change your build to accommodate for situations when things go south. I suggest getting condi clears and stun breakers and learning when to use them.
- Condi builds are about attrition. The goal is to survive long enough to overwhelm their opponents with lots of small attacks. It is VERY effective against glass cannons, especially when their initial burst is mitigated. If you’re going to roam, you had better learn to deal with this type of opponent.
- While condi builds are more forgiving than zerker, they are NOT easy. You have to constantly gauge when to lay in the pressure and when to back off while also keeping up your defenses. In fact, what makes scrub PU mesmers easy to kill is that they think they’re safe when they’re in stealth.
- PU mesmers have weaknesses, such as the aforementioned condition clears. They are particularly vulnerable to aoes because clones die easily and phantasms have cooldowns and cast times too long to make them decent shatter fodder. Learn to abuse these weaknesses.
- Your impatience is a weakness. Because you expect to end engagements fast, you’re likely to make more mistakes in prolonged battles. Any opponent that realizes this can bait you for an easy kill.
- You also need to learn when to use your burst. Instead of going for the face right off the bat, sometimes it’s better whittle your opponent down with a few hits and then use your burst to finish them off.
- Your arrogance is also a weakness. Because you feel zerker play styles should be better than condi, you get frustrated when proven otherwise. Respect your opponents and their playstyle. Learn how they view things. Look for flaws in their builds and exploit them. The ONLY time you should ask for a nerf is when a build is highly effective and doesn’t have a weakness. PU is definitely not that build.
sigh.
1.) I belive your talking about pistol pistol and who even runs that in wvw when shortbow is so much better.
2.) It is get away wep, the 5 skill gives aegis yeah, the 2 skill replace you with a clone and puts u further back but its phantasm hits hard if youve put lots of condis on the other player.
3.) Its more of an expression, no its not 100% of the time, but its kitten ear close to it (seeing as ive gone into keeps hiding b4 and remained hidden for nearly 2 min, can invis forever with 2 mesmers.)
4.) Yes i have condi clears and stun breaks, not new to wvw, and yes im beserker but i can still beat ppl in outnumbered fights.
5.) Idk how its enjoyable for 30 min long fights, a 5 min fight is fine, even with zerk you can mitigate dmg with blocks etc as well not every fight is short with zerk gear. Yes i know i have to deal with them cause majority of players run condi so they can be tanky and still do pretty darn dmg beside being tanky.
6.) If its a good mesmer all you need is the torch skill removals and your mantra and your good for condi removal. Yes i know to kill their phantasms/ clones while they are in stealth.
7.) impatience? sigh, sorry not everyone finds it enjoyable to have super super super long fights. Theres a good fight, and then theres one thats just dragging on.
8.) Im not new to wvw roaming. Also if the mesmer is low on health hes just going to mass invis +torch stealth distengage come back run away etc if he gets low.
9.) Not that i feel like they should be better, its just that a dire build should not have near the same dmg with condis as with burst or straight up dmg since as you say you are “glass”. Whats that? there are lots of posts where people are saying that pu mesmers need a bit of a nerf (in WvW!) and im not the only one suggesting it? Well then. What do you know. Look down the forums page and just see.
ANet put a lot of efforts try to dethrone zerker builds from the meta. Instead of Nerf PU, I would expect ANet to put up more viable alternatives to PU Mesmer to make zerker build less attractive.
9.) Not that i feel like they should be better, its just that a dire build should not have near the same dmg with condis as with burst or straight up dmg since as you say you are “glass”. Whats that? there are lots of posts where people are saying that pu mesmers need a bit of a nerf (in WvW!) and im not the only one suggesting it? Well then. What do you know. Look down the forums page and just see.
Your ranger build is a shining example of why this isn’t true, though.
As you said, you’re running a dps build (zerker), and yet you fight dire condi mesmers to a standstill.
If the mesmer had “near the same dmg with condis as with burst or straight up dmg”, you should get wrecked by that in anything less than dire/soldiers/cele.
The truth is that the damage from condi builds is high when unmitigated, but mitigation against condi dps is a lot more effective (and readily available, tbh) than mitigation against power burst. The result is a build type that punishes uninformed players but rewards informed ones.
Not sure if this has been mentioned…. subject has been done to death so haven’t read entire thread:
IMO something is OP if you 1). can’t beat it and 2). can’t avoid it.
Mesmers are just about he easiest class to run away from.
You can’t kill him so you run… he can’t kill you… seems fair.
For example – compare with how ‘sticky’ a thief is… seeing as people bringing up thief here.
I understand your frustration. But it’s been said before, and it will be said again: The game isn’t (can’t be) balanced around WvW roaming. It just won’t work.
Also, (as has been said before), roaming is a weird kind of beast. It basically requires a class that can 1vX multiple enemies, and can avoid/escape groups or enemies that you can’t face down. There are probably 3 or 4 builds right now that can handle that effectively. Is PU Condi the near the top? Yeah, probably.
But the biggest point is this: Roaming just doesn’t matter that much. I enjoy it, it sounds like you enjoy it, but we make pretty minimal impact to the overall WvW “score.” I can circle a borderland capping camps, even solo a tower here or there if I’m on a low tier and it’s an off-time. I can do something similar in EB. But at the end of the day, anything I do can be near-immediately undone by one or two enemies doing the exact same thing, likely in half the time.
Basically, I think it’s just not a high-priority problem for ANet. And it shouldn’t be.
EDIT: Sniped by Fay, with 1/10th of the words. And I’m ok with that.
To be fair, as has been said many times, it is far more than just roaming. Reducing the legitimacy of ppl being POed at mesmers in wvw to roaming atm is dishonest. Stealth and portals on one so hard to catch person is a genuine problem that siphon at lot of fun out of wvw.
I’m a rather bad mesmer myself and every time I play mine, even full glass, with a minimum of stealth and blink I’m next to unkillable (never mind using PU) even when the opponent has 20+ The only time I die is when I get kitteny which, to be fair, usually happen to anybody who feel so untouchable… but still… something is definitely wrong.
I understand your frustration. But it’s been said before, and it will be said again: The game isn’t (can’t be) balanced around WvW roaming. It just won’t work.
Also, (as has been said before), roaming is a weird kind of beast. It basically requires a class that can 1vX multiple enemies, and can avoid/escape groups or enemies that you can’t face down. There are probably 3 or 4 builds right now that can handle that effectively. Is PU Condi the near the top? Yeah, probably.
But the biggest point is this: Roaming just doesn’t matter that much. I enjoy it, it sounds like you enjoy it, but we make pretty minimal impact to the overall WvW “score.” I can circle a borderland capping camps, even solo a tower here or there if I’m on a low tier and it’s an off-time. I can do something similar in EB. But at the end of the day, anything I do can be near-immediately undone by one or two enemies doing the exact same thing, likely in half the time.
Basically, I think it’s just not a high-priority problem for ANet. And it shouldn’t be.
EDIT: Sniped by Fay, with 1/10th of the words. And I’m ok with that.
To be fair, as has been said many times, it is far more than just roaming. Reducing the legitimacy of ppl being POed at mesmers in wvw to roaming atm is dishonest. Stealth and portals on one so hard to catch person is a genuine problem that siphon at lot of fun out of wvw.
I’m a rather bad mesmer myself and every time I play mine, even full glass, with a minimum of stealth and blink I’m next to unkillable (never mind using PU) even when the opponent has 20+ The only time I die is when I get kitteny which, to be fair, usually happen to anybody who feel so untouchable… but still… something is definitely wrong.
You start of saying your not that great yet you face 20 plus people not using pu. You my friend are the greatest Mesmer that lives. Or maybe it’s hard to factor in opponent skill hence the raging.
I understand your frustration. But it’s been said before, and it will be said again: The game isn’t (can’t be) balanced around WvW roaming. It just won’t work.
Also, (as has been said before), roaming is a weird kind of beast. It basically requires a class that can 1vX multiple enemies, and can avoid/escape groups or enemies that you can’t face down. There are probably 3 or 4 builds right now that can handle that effectively. Is PU Condi the near the top? Yeah, probably.
But the biggest point is this: Roaming just doesn’t matter that much. I enjoy it, it sounds like you enjoy it, but we make pretty minimal impact to the overall WvW “score.” I can circle a borderland capping camps, even solo a tower here or there if I’m on a low tier and it’s an off-time. I can do something similar in EB. But at the end of the day, anything I do can be near-immediately undone by one or two enemies doing the exact same thing, likely in half the time.
Basically, I think it’s just not a high-priority problem for ANet. And it shouldn’t be.
EDIT: Sniped by Fay, with 1/10th of the words. And I’m ok with that.
To be fair, as has been said many times, it is far more than just roaming. Reducing the legitimacy of ppl being POed at mesmers in wvw to roaming atm is dishonest. Stealth and portals on one so hard to catch person is a genuine problem that siphon at lot of fun out of wvw.
I’m a rather bad mesmer myself and every time I play mine, even full glass, with a minimum of stealth and blink I’m next to unkillable (never mind using PU) even when the opponent has 20+ The only time I die is when I get kitteny which, to be fair, usually happen to anybody who feel so untouchable… but still… something is definitely wrong.
You start of saying your not that great yet you face 20 plus people not using pu. You my friend are the greatest Mesmer that lives. Or maybe it’s hard to factor in opponent skill hence the raging.
I meant that I could nearly always escape even group that big that really wanted my head on a plate. If you play without bravado it’s hella hard to die as a mesmer… unless you loose your cool. That I can manage so well being far, FAR less skilled in that profession says a lot to me… I die a lot more on my main despite the ridiculously bigger time invested in it.
I’m a rather bad mesmer myself and every time I play mine, even full glass, with a minimum of stealth and blink I’m next to unkillable (never mind using PU) even when the opponent has 20+ The only time I die is when I get kitteny which, to be fair, usually happen to anybody who feel so untouchable… but still… something is definitely wrong.
Mmm, and what do you generally accomplish with that build, running away from 20+ people in WvW?
I’ve also got a foolproof way to never die in WvW: never go into WvW. Free will OP?
If you won’t enjoy the fight, just don’t fight it. Simple rule in WvW roaming.
Most of those annoying builds have very little chasing and engaging capability.
For me, PU condie mesmer before or after patch are both trash specs for WvW roaming. Anyone with a half brain can outrun you and laugh at you.
(edited by Exciton.8942)
I’m a rather bad mesmer myself and every time I play mine, even full glass, with a minimum of stealth and blink I’m next to unkillable (never mind using PU) even when the opponent has 20+ The only time I die is when I get kitteny which, to be fair, usually happen to anybody who feel so untouchable…
I think your bullkitten story is the evidence Anet needs to nerf Mesmer some more. You should email them your findings immediately.
And if you have any arbitrary bones to pick any other classes, include those in your report too.
Gutter Rat [cry] | Gandara | Roaming nuisance
~ There is no balance team. ~
~ There is no balance team. ~
Full of players trying to defend a completely broken build. It will get fixed eventualy, but like everything ANet does will take a loong time to do so
Lockn Loada/Ryu Shueki
[RUN] solo/duo roamer
[RUN] solo/duo roamer
Full of players trying to defend a completely broken build. It will get fixed eventualy, but like everything ANet does will take a loong time to do so
If by defense you meant another class that can stealth along side a thief. Or broken build like the ele wearing a giant S on their shirt and a red cape.
Full of players trying to defend a completely broken build. It will get fixed eventualy, but like everything ANet does will take a loong time to do so
Well, we’re full of players blaming their deaths in this game onto their opponents spec instead of their own shortcomings. Sadly, I think the universe doesn’t have a fix coming up any time soon.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
So, you might wanna check out the engineer spec blog now. Stealth counter play is getting much more prevalent which is nice.
And if you thought off-stealth finishing was bad, look at autonomous finishing via the drone. :P
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
So uh… many saying PU mesmer wont be nerfed cuz in pvp if you are so much time invisible you wont cap (i can just /laugh to this statement but ye, its like saying a ranger is useless in pvp cuz he cant easy kite while staying in the point and keeping it contested).
But aniway the main fact is, that if PU doesnt affect that much in pvp, why just not nerf it for wvw since is making roaming (wich is one of the best funny part of this game) not enjoyable??
So uh… many saying PU mesmer wont be nerfed cuz in pvp if you are so much time invisible you wont cap (i can just /laugh to this statement but ye, its like saying a ranger is useless in pvp cuz he cant easy kite while staying in the point and keeping it contested).
But aniway the main fact is, that if PU doesnt affect that much in pvp, why just not nerf it for wvw since is making roaming (wich is one of the best funny part of this game) not enjoyable??
PU performs a solid role in PvP, which is to provide a decent defensive option, an option that was previously served by traits that inflicted conditions when your clones died.
Since stealth does prevent capping, excess stealth in sPvP does not cause the problems that it does in WvW roaming. The same is true of rangers in fact, a ranger that kites too much is in fact a burden to his team, as he’s not helping the cap. It’s not stealth that’s the problem, it’s excess stealth, which is too costly in sPvP to be a major issue.
Again, by excess I don’t mean The Prestige giving 6s, or decoy giving 6s, or even MI giving 10s. I mean the 6+6+10+6=28s+ of continuous stealth that makes people whine about never seeing the mesmer coming in WvW, and the extremely high stealth uptime that you get from combining The Pledge with The Prestige.
Nerfing PU for the sake of WvW roaming, though, does nerf the defensive value of it in sPvP, as it’s not the combined durations of the three main stealth abilities that matters defensively, but their durations separately.
So yes, unless you replace PU with an equivalently strong defensive option, nerfing PU for the sake of WvW roaming will harm mesmers in sPvP.
I’d quite like for it to just be returned to +1 second of stealth, but remove the might and replace it with 1 second of resistance or something. I’d actually find that far more useful in sPvP, whilst also happening to solve a big problem in WvW.
Gandara
So uh… many saying PU mesmer wont be nerfed cuz in pvp if you are so much time invisible you wont cap (i can just /laugh to this statement but ye, its like saying a ranger is useless in pvp cuz he cant easy kite while staying in the point and keeping it contested).
But aniway the main fact is, that if PU doesnt affect that much in pvp, why just not nerf it for wvw since is making roaming (wich is one of the best funny part of this game) not enjoyable??
By that extension can nerf the following as they do not make WvW enjoyable:
Transferring server upward.
Night capping.
Stealth from thieves.
Stealth from mesmers.
Trapper runes.
Ranger longbow range.
Siegerazor.
Perplexity runes.
Dire gear.
Zergs over 20.
Tormenting runes.
Revenant (trust me, this will be on the list when HoT comes out)
Burning.
+/- condition food.
Ghost tonics.
Smallest Asura.
Superior Arrow Carts.
Omega golems.
Other people, I’m just trying to mine.
Get the point? Need I go on as to why that is a poor excuse?
I’m a rather bad mesmer myself and every time I play mine, even full glass, with a minimum of stealth and blink I’m next to unkillable (never mind using PU) even when the opponent has 20+ The only time I die is when I get kitteny which, to be fair, usually happen to anybody who feel so untouchable…
I think your bullkitten story is the evidence Anet needs to nerf Mesmer some more. You should email them your findings immediately.
And if you have any arbitrary bones to pick any other classes, include those in your report too.
In the same way I want d/d cele ele to get some nerf, as opposed to ele period, I don’t suggest a massive class nerf for mesmer but for some traits that do put them in a too good spot in wvw. PU and the pledge being some examples.
Oh god…
Yesterday I had a close encounter with an engi. He was good and we were fighting for about 5 minutes – with his elixir HGH build he had quote good condi cleanse and decent tankiness that was really hard for me to counter. When finally he made mistake and I’ve manage to down him, I was about to compliment his skills when I received a quite vitriolic message about “being a noob playing a noob faceroll build that requires no skills”. He then changed toon to one with even better condi cleanse, found me killed me. I guess his ego was satisfied. While I don’t fully recall his name, it was rhyming with “Zero”… Now I see this post
/facepalm.
Ok, now back to the original post:
Every noob and his dad is playing them now in wvw especially cause dire pu mesmers are the easiest thing to play and get easy kills.
That dear sir is a scrub thinking – http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub . Yes, the condi mesmer is efficient build, but mainly because so many players run full zerker without condi cleanse. Is it easy? That depends what you mean – the only thing that is really easy in this build is to run away from bad fight – getting a kill is not, because it has SO MUCH LOWER burst than normal power builds (not mentioning that condi cleanse like MoR completely wrecks it). Power necro’s 90% of damage comes from #1 button – slash with dagger till full bar, then Death Shroud and again #1 (yes, I’m oversimplifying here but not by much) yet I don’t see people calling them “faceroll noob easy builds”.
Adapt to the game dear sir and stop complaining.
Ok, now back to the original post:
Every noob and his dad is playing them now in wvw especially cause dire pu mesmers are the easiest thing to play and get easy kills.
That dear sir is a scrub thinking – http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub . Yes, the condi mesmer is efficient build, but mainly because so many players run full zerker without condi cleanse. Is it easy? That depends what you mean – the only thing that is really easy in this build is to run away from bad fight – getting a kill is not, because it has SO MUCH LOWER burst than normal power builds (not mentioning that condi cleanse like MoR completely wrecks it). Power necro’s 90% of damage comes from #1 button – slash with dagger till full bar, then Death Shroud and again #1 (yes, I’m oversimplifying here but not by much) yet I don’t see people calling them “faceroll noob easy builds”.
Adapt to the game dear sir and stop complaining.
While what you say is true my main problem with the mesmer as is in wvw is the eternal risk vs reward that is stupidly out of wack. Yes there are some pretty simple and efficient build to run out there but most of them are, IMHO, more balanced in WvW when we tackle the question from a risk/reward angle. If your professions has it super easy to escape any bad situations you inherently don’t risk much mounting any attacks. Specially when invisible while mounting them and teleporting around with blink (sometimes double blinks) and portals. The necro in your example is very deadly but for all his might he will have to face the music if he mess-up. A mesmer as is in wvw will never face the consequences of his mistakes unless he realllllllllly kitten-up baaaad. Yet, the reward he can easily reap is very real and brutal.
While what you say is true my main problem with the mesmer as is in wvw is the eternal risk vs reward that is stupidly out of wack. Yes there are some pretty simple and efficient build to run out there but most of them are, IMHO, more balanced in WvW when we tackle the question from a risk/reward angle. If your professions has it super easy to escape any bad situations you inherently don’t risk much mounting any attacks. Specially when invisible while mounting them and teleporting around with blink (sometimes double blinks) and portals. The necro in your example is very deadly but for all his might he will have to face the music if he mess-up. A mesmer as is in wvw will never face the consequences of his mistakes unless he realllllllllly kitten-up baaaad. Yet, the reward he can easily reap is very real and brutal.
You just described all successful meta roaming builds. Note: Necro is not a popular or meta roamer.
DP thief, high reward, low risk.
Trapper thief, medium reward, low to no risk.
Trapper runes power ranger, low risk at 1500+ range, high reward.
PU condition mesmer, high reward, low risk.
Trapper condition ranger, high reward, low risk.
Condition engineer, high reward, medium risk. (Stealth only really with toss elixir S but it’s enough given their mobility)
The only differences here is Mesmer has 3 reliable condition applications, torment, bleed and confusion, 2 of which require the target to do something to even get a decent benefit from.
Don’t get me wrong, the trait the pledge really needs changing, you’ve been arguing in this forum long enough to know most mesmers want it changed. PU isn’t the problem, especially as we’re getting more and more counters to stealth, which I fully endorse.
While what you say is true my main problem with the mesmer as is in wvw is the eternal risk vs reward that is stupidly out of wack. Yes there are some pretty simple and efficient build to run out there but most of them are, IMHO, more balanced in WvW when we tackle the question from a risk/reward angle. If your professions has it super easy to escape any bad situations you inherently don’t risk much mounting any attacks.
Yes, the risk/reward scales differently but not in a way that you think: powerful zerker builds are indeed high risk/high reward: jump in kill or be killed. Condi mesmer’s risk is lower, indeed because he can run away, but so is the reward: he can be EASILY countered by condi clense or the opponent can simply run away – hence lower reward.
Fact that ~80% of the population haven’t accepted that conditions are more powerful than before hence they don’ invest into real condi cleanse makes the PU condi such an efficient build.
Saying all that, I’d like to see more counters to the invisibility
(edited by Mirmil.5074)
I agree with both of you, however, mesmer is right now not only ubber strong but comes with the added problem of portals that all other professions don’t have… It’s huge and extraordinarily annoying and time and resource consuming to fight and you don’t really have the option to just not care. It’s the mix of several key things that in that context makes a genuine problem.
I agree with both of you, however, mesmer is right now not only ubber strong but comes with the added problem of portals that all other professions don’t have… It’s huge and extraordinarily annoying and time and resource consuming to fight and you don’t really have the option to just not care. It’s the mix of several key things that in that context makes a genuine problem.
I don’t understand how portals makes it more annoying and resource consuming to fight. You mean because of recapping towers? You do know that they’re gonna change that so that being in a tower in the 5 minutes after it’s capped marks you on the minimap, right?
I have played this game since launch and I know that condi mesmers dont work too well in pves or massive zergs, but it’s just rediculous in 1v1 or small group fights. As a pu condi mesmer I have not yet lost to anybody, simply because no matter how much condi you remove (believe me I fought classes that were built to have a kitten ton of removal) but in the end they still lose (fighting them takes a long time but they have to focus all their attention in removing the conditions I apply, so they have no time to focus on dealing damage to me, even if they manage to deal some damage, my ether feast heals over half of my hp anyways, so they basically deal no dmg to me. Also I’m constantly kiting with staff 2 etc, if you try to catch me [I can apply alot of torment], if you try to attack [I apply alot of confusion]. Therefore I’m constantly punishing players for attacking or even moving…. How in the world can that be fair???? I stacked up to 15 stacks of confusion at one time that the enemy deals around 1.5k dmg to himself per melee attack………. Oh you want to heal yourself? NOPE! I run doom on each weapon set, good luck healing…. Pu mesmer can spam stealth, and punishes players for doing anything. In a 1v1 situation, I can never lose.). I run ether feast, disenchanter, null field all which removes conditions applied to me (Just try fighting me with condi build you will understand how every condition that you apply to me gets removed almost instantly) and strip enemy boons, they have absolutely no chance at winning against me using a condition mesmer
PS. TO ANYONE OF YOU CLAIMING THAT PU CONDI MESMERS ARE NOT OP ETC. FIGHT ME!!! I will beat everyone of you. PU condi is so faceroll i wont even have to try.
(edited by IchigoHatake.5098)
I have played this game since launch and I know that condi mesmers dont work too well in pves or massive zergs, but it’s just rediculous in 1v1 or small group fights. As a pu condi mesmer I have not yet lost to anybody, simply because no matter how much condi you remove (believe me I fought classes that were built to have a kitten ton of removal) but in the end they still lose (fighting them takes a long time but they have to focus all their attention in removing the my conditions that they deal no dmg to me). I run ether feast, disenchanter, null field all which removes conditions applied to me and strip enemy boons, they have absolutely no chance at winning against me using a condition mesmer
I know. I’m a living condi-washing machine and there is simply no way I can hope to wash it all and if I don’t…
IKR………. I fought this ranger that took every possible condi removing trait and utility and sigils and rune etc. He said he will beat me easy, but he lost every time :P. Fighting that ranger took a long time due to condi removal, but his skills has cooldown but my condition applying skills has such low cool down that soon enough I apply too much condition for him to remove.
IKR………. I fought this ranger that took every possible condi removing trait and utility and sigils and rune etc. He said he will beat me easy, but he lost every time :P. Fighting that ranger took a long time due to condi removal, but his skills has cooldown but my condition applying skills has such low cool down that soon enough I apply too much condition for him to remove.
These examples all assume that your opponent will be foolish enough to stand and fight in a prolonged, losing battle. As people have said over and over again, walk away. It’s WvW, you don’t need to worry about holding a point, just leave. Outrunning a Condi mesmer is just not that hard.
Every build shouldn’t be capable of stomping every other build, I don’t know why people think that they should. So you can’t win a 1v1 with a Condi mesmer; walk away, do something else, or come back with friends. Job done.
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