Guild Wars 2

Have you heard of the pet ranger build? How about the steal thief? No? What about the attunement ele? Deathshroud necro?

And yet, here we are with the “shatter” Mesmer.

PHANTASM BUILDS – EXTINCT?
Anet’s recent patch pushed Mesmer to shatter, attempting to blur what it means to have a “shatter” build by having every Mesmer build make use of shatters (the way they were supposed to in the first place). Yet it seems in that shift removed the ability to make a viable phantasm build, which historically often rejected the use of shattering at all. The thing is, Phantasm traits have always been spread through different traitlines and resulted in the ability to make phantasm builds that varied from one another.

But in this meta.. Can Phantasm still survive?

That’s what I wanted to find out with this newest venture. I’m very satisfied with the boonshare Mesmer’s turnout and that is my main build, but I’ve had this itch to tackle phantasms for the longest and see if we can’t come up with something that works. Here’s what I asked myself:

• What weapons would suit a phantasm build best?
• How could a phantasm build distinguish itself from shatter?
• What role would a phantasm Mesmer play on a team and can it be competitive?

And as I attempt to find satisfactory answers to these questions I intend on posting my results here.

PHANTASM GAMEPLAY
Phantasm gameplay in general is interesting post-patch. There is no getting around it. No matter what build you play, you have to learn to shatter. Our class mechanic is more integral than ever for any successful build, and phantasm builds are no different. Learning to shatter in a phantasm build is odd at first, but becomes natural.

PROTOTYPE BUILD #1: LYSSA’S BRIGADE

DUELING/ILLUSIONS/INSPIRATION
- Phantasmal fury, Fencers Finesse, Deceptive Evasion
- Persistence of Memory, Phantasmal Haste, Ineptitude
- Persisting Images, Restorative Illusions, Mental Defense
– Sword / Sword + Greatsword, Marauder Amulet

Man.. Naming these things is half the fun. This build is centered on quantity over quality and features four different phantasms. While I do so loathe the greatsword, I cannot deny that it is the most effective for high AoE damage. So I paired it with the Swordsman for strong single-target damage along with 2 utility phantasms.

PROS

• Persistence of Memory works well with four phantasms.
• Phantasmal Disenchanter wrecks stability elites.. but is hard to use.
• Can micromanage damage/boonstrip on multiple opponents.

CONS

• Damage is high but doesn’t match shatter bursts.
• Phantasmal Defender ended up shattered more often than not. (Though that could be badness on my part)
• Phantasms require excellent positioning.
• Difficult build; hard to balance shattering and phantasms

This was my first test on Phantasm builds and while the build is fun, it takes a lot to learn and manage. Positioning and team awareness are always important, but in a phantasm build they are crucial to being successful and effective. I always enjoy trying new builds because they encourage a form of play I’m not used to. Lockdown builds taught me to pay attention to animations and cast times, boonshare taught me to keep my positioning near allies and watch health/status bars, now phantasm is teaching me proper positioning and paying attention to multiple opponents at once.

While this build is enjoyable, it’s still lacking a certain “oomph” (and lawd I just can not rock out with a greatsword) so I made some tweaks to come up with…

PROTOTYPE BUILD #2: PHANTASMAL CHAOS

(DOM/DUELING/ILLUSIONS)
Phantasmal Strength / Furious Interruption / Power Block
Duelists Discipline / Fencers Finesse / Deceptive Evasion
Persistence of Memory / Phantasmal Haste / Malicious Sorcery
Sword/Sword + Scepter/Pistol

Oh my lawd this build is so fun. I just wanted to get that out there before anything else, before talks of viability or effectiveness or roles… Scepter/Pistol with Furious Interruption & Duelistst’s Discipline is madly fun. Summon iSwordsman, Summon iDuelist, Magic Bullet interrupts! Quickness Confuse Ray! Trololol. It’s great.. Really, and even if you never run such a build, you should try that combination at least once in your Mesmery life.

PROS

• Ranged burst is hella strong
• Phantasms can easily take down an opponent without needing to shatter
• … But you can still shatter anyway!
• Scepter is strong with quickness + Malicious Sorcery

CONS

• Hard to defend yourself outside of Blink/Decoy
• Single target focused beyond shatters
• Very difficult build to use

VID
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzWaaZkFhDc

Remember that corny thread I made about how Domination & Dueling goes with everything? Well this buildtakes that principle and uses it for Phantasm builds in a weird Phantasm/Interrupt combination. I was struggling to make good use of Phantasmal Disenchanter so I decided to go for Mantra of Distraction in it’s place. I found myself dealing more damage and surviving longer, but lacking any form of boonstrip/condi removal hurts.

PHANTASM IMPRESSIONS

• Swordsman my favorite phantasm and arguably the strongest. It attacks much quicker than the others and deals the most damage to boot. Though it evades when it attacks, it’s still quite vulnerable to AoE damage.

• Duelist at 1200r this phantasm is on of the safest to cast at distance despite doing less damage than Zerker and Swordsman. It also benefits from (traited) having the lowest cooldown of all phantasms as long as you can land a single interrupt during it’s recharge. I used to sleep on this phantasm’s effectiveness since it’s rapid shots are so evadeable (that wasn’t even a word until today) but it’s arguably more reliable than swordsman.

• Berzerker Spin to win! This phantasm is a monster of an assistant with a strong AoE attack that also cripples. Though it does less damage than swordsman, it is more likely to hit due to the wide range of it’s spin and the fact that it’s multiple hits. Personally, I hate the greatsword but absolutely looove this phantasm.

• Defender Defender is great when you have two of them.. assuming the fight isn’t any bigger than a 3 on 3. In largescale combat defender falls off, only halving the damage of a few attacks before dissipating. It has considerably higher HP than the other phantasms and it’s buff transfers damage from ALL nearby allies to itself, but for me it ended up being Persistence of Memory shatter fodder to lower cooldowns for other phantasms.

• Disenchanter Sigh.. Disenchanter. When your projectile isn’t getting blocked/blinded/dodged/absorbed/reflected you’re actually quite awesome. This phantasm attacks extremely quickly and can make you nigh-immune to conditions in one-on-one fights. Unfortunately, like defender, it falls off considerably in group battles despite it’s incredibly great effect.

OVERALL IMPRESSIONS

So far my feelings are pretty mixed. Phantasm play has changed considerably and trying to play Phantasm the same way as pre-patch is a recipe for failure. I think that there is still potential for phantasm builds but I have not yet determined the answer to my question: Can this be a viable alternative to shatter/lockdown? Is this build effective and unique? It’s hard to say since the builds I’m playing currently are difficult to learn and will take some adjustment before I can really make any determinations.

I’m optimistic that there is something valuable here, though. The playstyle is still distinctly different from shatter/lockdown despite an increased focus on shattering in general and the damage is rather high. Damage alone isn’t enough, though, because then you’re simply competing for the same role as standard shatter. I’ll be continuing to explore phantasm builds throughout the coming month and recording my findings here, I’d love to hear from others who are doing similar testing.

You’re not an iWarden fan here?

I think with chronomancer, if they keep the concept of chronophantasm (they seemed hesitant) phantasm mesmer will be a thing in PvP. For now on, I think the phantasm interrupts may work (lockdown while phantasm destroy your opponent), but I haven’t tried it.

Tealots.6095:

You’re not an iWarden fan here?

I love Warden, but couldn’t find a place for it here. Its a better PvE phantasm and I’ve mostly had success using it defensively.

(also, if I did take it I’d be taking it over offhand sword and I’m just way too biased for that)

Silverkey.2078:

I think with chronomancer, if they keep the concept of chronophantasm (they seemed hesitant) phantasm mesmer will be a thing in PvP. For now on, I think the phantasm interrupts may work (lockdown while phantasm destroy your opponent), but I haven’t tried it.

Chronophantasma is extremely exciting. If they’re afraid its too strong on-shatter then they should make it on-death. Either way it opens up potential for phantasm builds similar to how illsionary inspiration does for boonshare

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Silverkey.2078:

I think with chronomancer, if they keep the concept of chronophantasm (they seemed hesitant) phantasm mesmer will be a thing in PvP. For now on, I think the phantasm interrupts may work (lockdown while phantasm destroy your opponent), but I haven’t tried it.

Chronophantasma is extremely exciting. If they’re afraid its too strong on-shatter then they should make it on-death. Either way it opens up potential for phantasm builds similar to how illsionary inspiration does for boonshare

On-death would be sad and unlikely since the goal was to allow phantasm mesmers to shatter (“we want you to use your class mechanics!”).
The main problem of the trait right now is the burst of 3 synchronized duelists/swordsman just after they shatter. Having 3 damaging phantasms up simultaneously is very unlikely to happen in PvP.
Also I’m afraid that they will die easily after the first shatter since they will move on shatter-range. A duelist or swordsman survives because he is away from the fight…
But I’m looking forward to try it!

I was kind of hoping the implementation would have a “copy” of each phantasm do the suicide run in to shatter…leaving a “pristine” version of itself behind. That way, the phantasm would only be as close as it was anyway, and no more likely to die to cleaves than it was already.

Visually, it would look like the old phantasm left a fully-healed copy of itself behind, and went on the suicide run itself.

Mechanically, the phantasm that does the shatter run is an exact copy of the original, but the original itself just gets healed up to full/cleansed/etc. That resolves the burst issue, as the “new” phantasm is still between attacks if the original was, because it is in fact the original phantasm.

I think that is a good way to implement it indeed. + visually, it’s like phantasms will clone themselves and we have up to 6 illusions on the field

I really tried to make something viable out of phantasm build with this Condi and/or Burst meta.

Dom/Duel/Insp : Signet Phantasm. GS, S/X.
Dom/Duel/Illu/ : Phantasm and interrupt. Sc/S, S/P.
Dom/Duel/Chaos : Phantasm and interrupt. Staff ? Gs ? Sword ? Pistol ? As you like.
Dom/Chaos/Insp : More ‘’tanky/boon/support’‘. GS, Staff. No Fury.
Duel/Chaos/Insp : More ’’tanky/boon/support’’. Melee focused, S/S, S/P.

iWarden is bad nearly everywhere without Distortion and EVEN with that. I only use it for Vinewrath in SW (PvE) !

I always try to put iDesenchanter in my build, but it’s either that or MoR. Reliable condi removal or unreliable one that can boon strip bunkers ?

You always need to do a sacrifice somewhere. Hardest is to stay alive and to keep your damage high. As a Phantasm player, you might want to get more ’’support’’ oriented runes or trinkets, which lower your damage, but your Illusions are still easily killable. Persisting Image + Signet of Illusions ? Only when I’m bored, lazy and in PvE.

If you don’t take Domination, you lose :

Empowered Illusion (%DMG)
Blurred Inscription (Signet Trait) or Furious Interruption
Imagined Burden

If you don’t take Dueling, you lose :

Phantasmal Fury (%CritChance and this one HURTS to lose) VS Duelist’s Discipline (Which is more of a Condi/Interrupt trait)
Fencer’s Finesse (If you use Sword)
Then you scratch your head about which GM to take, none are really interesting for a phantasm build.

If you don’t take Chaos, you lose :

Illusionnary Defense (%Defense by each clones)
Master of Manipulation
Staff trait (I doubt you want to use Staff in a phantasm build)
Then you scratch your head about which GM to take, CI is good, PU is good if you put Decoy or MI in your build, then BD is useless.

Overall, Chaos is good if you’re mixing it with Inspiration (The minor traits)

If you don’t take Inspiration, you lose :

Persisting Images
Protected Phantasm VS Warden’s Feedback (They shouldn’t be on the same tree, iWarden is pretty bad without Distortion)
The GMs ? Mental Defense is good. Illusionary Inspiration is clunky/buggy, it takes a while before the phantasm gives you Regen, but the trait is good if you have traited Signet.

If you don’t take Illusion, you lose :

Persistence of Memory (which helps for phantasm generation when you shatter)
Illusionist Celerity (20% reduction, this one HURTS to lose).
Phantasmal Haste (is godly with iSword and iDuelist)
Then, you don’t really know which GM to take.

What I only wishes ?

Protected Phantasm (Insp)
Phantasm Fury (Duel)
Phantasmal Haste (Illu)
Illusionist Celerity (Illu)
Empowered Illusions (Dom)

Other ? I can live without.

I like your style, CA. Build #2 sounds like a lot of fun. I’ve actually just been thinking about builds using Sc+P/Sw. I can see why you’d prefer Sw/Sw as your second set, though, that Blurred Frenzy evade is too good to pass up.

I’m kind of curious to see how Rabid/Rampager stack up vs. Marauder in this kind of a build. Shame that Rampager is so glassy, because otherwise it seems perfectly suited.

I think I’ll address the question of playstyles and mindset and try and show why I don’t think a phantasm build is compatible with shatters.

The Shatter Mindset/Playstyle

The primary theme of a traditional shatter build is high risk/high reward. Them bursts can down an enemy in seconds, and lots of people like to see high numbers and ending a fight quickly.

But – it’s also obviously risky. The mesmer is the only class (and I’ve had debates on this before, but I stick to my guns), whose class mechanics F1-F4 impose a cost on the mesmer by sacrificing all their illusions. Clones…ok – they’re fodder anyway and besides, we create clones in the normal course of gameplay. Dodging, weapon skills etc.

But phantasms…those guys are not so disposable. We have dedicated weapon slots for them. And I’m a big favorite of the Chaos line with Illusions meaning I get protection for 3 seconds every 15 secs and perma regeneration.

Shatter mesmers also don’t hold points. Their playstyle relies on setting up their big gamble burst and they like to stealth (though the recent patch has made setting it up much easier – hence the lowered viability of phantasms).

In any case, a shatter mesmer doesn’t really rely on phantasms for their burst. Additional damage is welcome of course, but they’re disposable.

So far so good.

The Phantasm Mindset

This is the complete opposite mindset of a shatter mesmer. Where a shatter mesmer wants to end fights quickly and bursts down with periods of vulnerability in between, the phantasm mesmer has a slow build up with pressure constantly increasing. Unlike a shatter mesmer, a phantasm mes becomes more dangerous the longer the fight goes on.

The most vulnerable period for a (traditional) phant mes is the opening stages of the fight where no damage dealers have been summoned yet. Blinds in this stage are particularly deadly and I used to always run power cleanse on my bar only for blinds so I could cast my phantasms. Especially in the middle of a cast.

Unlike a shatter mesmer, phantasm mes is not glass. Damage doesn’t come in intense bursts, but a sustained stream that builds over time. This theme is also has a healthy mix of condi damage because of sharper images (and one day…hopefully…duelist’s). I used to like the Chaos line for the 10% toughness into condi damage for this very reason.

It’s also why I preferred the iWarden with reflects. Fast bleed stacks, safety from projectiles, and it’s also a psychological barrier making people step away. Each moment I am still alive makes my threat bigger. Positioning of the phantasms is obviously important. The iDuelist needs to be spawned a bit away and his damage+bleeds ultimately take their toll over time.

The scepter helped me put some toment stacks and I used veil to do pull people into my warden, disrupt their attacks, reflect, and take pressure off me.

All in all the playstyle is very clear. Phantasms are the slow build up and shatters are the bursters. For this reason, I used a cele ammy – I needed all the stats. Power, condi, healing, crits etc. Shatters on the other hand can do just fine being glassy.

I cannot reconcile these two playstyles by shattering my phantasms. As soon as I shatter my phantasms, I’m left with nothing. The last patch killed the whole concept of slowly building up damage over time. As @Chaos said, you have to shatter even in phantasm builds…and that, I’m sorry to say, doesn’t appeal to me.

To me, a shatter is a sacrifice of long term phantasms for short term gain. From a psychological point of view, that makes me uncomfortable. I am inherently averse to risk. It’s not my playstyle. For 3 years now, I’ve been able to play a phantasm mesmer that matched my slow buildup kind of playstyle meant to hold points. This recent patch has not left me that option anymore.

Maybe our second specialization will give us phant-based Fskills that don’t focus on shattering but instead buffing or controlling our phants.

Coming from pre patch phantrupt which was purely phantasm (rarely shattering), and moving into post patch phantasm here’s my super simple point of view on it.

Yes you shatter now. You’re better off for it. However the question for me quickly became when/where do I switch gears? That’s all it boils down to. Am I going on a huge shatter offensive? Or am I better off changing gear and running the phantasm game?

And that’s it. Learning your matchups, figuring out what’s better when. It can put your opponent through a mind bender, and easily lead to domination over ever the seemingly toughest/annoying opponents.

@Esplen
A suggestion I made some time ago somewhat related to that
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/SUGGESTION-Class-mechanics/first

tobascodagama.2961:

I like your style, CA. Build #2 sounds like a lot of fun. I’ve actually just been thinking about builds using Sc+P/Sw. I can see why you’d prefer Sw/Sw as your second set, though, that Blurred Frenzy evade is too good to pass up.

I’m kind of curious to see how Rabid/Rampager stack up vs. Marauder in this kind of a build. Shame that Rampager is so glassy, because otherwise it seems perfectly suited.

Messed around a teeny bit last night, so I have a few thoughts. Sc/P + Sw/Sw is the way to go. I tried with Scepter mainhand on both sets, and targets are just too slippery without either the Swap/Immob from Sword 3 or the stun from Confounding Suggestions.

I also tried out a Rabid amulet, and I frankly wasn’t impressed. It just doesn’t deal enough damage. I suspect Rampager will be too glassy, but I’ll try it out tonight. Marauder with a condition rune/sigil set may be the way to go if you want a hybrid build.

I played this sorta build shortly after the patch. It is indeed basically a Phantrupt. I would strongly suggest Sw/Pi & GS, as much as I know you love the iSwordsman, I feel that even in your video it was often clear the GS would have served you better. (IMO!)

I also don’t agree that the Swordsman hits harder then the iZerker. If the iZerker crits on all 4 attacks it is in my experiences (and tests) the highest damage Phantasm short of the iWarden. Also, that cast-time difference is so pronounced! That extra 1/4ths of a second can seem like an eternity. I just feel the Swordsman is extremely unreliable and dies too much.

The Pistol is a solid Phantasm on an almost ludicrous CD in an interrupt build with DD. I don’t love the long attack either, although it does help that it continues to hit people in stealth, but it’s really the CD reduction on Magic Bullet that ends up making this OH so tempting. MB has always been nice, but the CD has always been too long. Now with CS and DD you have a really strong ranged CC option on a low CD if you get those interrupts in.

Definitely a fun build, but you had an issue with Condie cleansing. I think changing Illusions for Inspiration would solve that, and make you much tankier in the process.

Dom/Duel/Insp with Sw/Pi & GS, Marauder, Centaur or Pack, HM + MoR + MoD, Decoy, Blink

Nasty PvP Phantasm build! Good sustain & cleansing, 2 strong Phants, solid ranged & melee damage, decent PBAoE damage spikes, very strong interrupts/CC, good mobility.

Here’s what I’ve settled on now, it’s a hybrid/condition variant of Chaos’ build #2: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R3SFF;0VPV11y6BW-71;9;4STW;0158258148;41Kk64;1jwmAjwmA7q

I’ve been enjoying it a lot. It’s obviously not as bursty as the Power variant, but the conditions seem to make it a little more forgiving when you can’t afford to go all-in.

Ok let me just say, your second build, I been running something very similar for both pvp and pve. I have always like the look of duel sword so tried to make it work and loved it.

Build I was using. Gear and other stuff are different when in PVE

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAsc7alknhG0YNawRNwtGLqGEaXSTUIDwI2Z5HKx2A-TJBBAByXGAgnAAN7PEwJBAA

the build was fun but since we are almost forced to use shatter and I have always wanted to be a condi mesmer in every game type with my builds like BBB, I have since change the pvp build to this.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAsf7alknhG0YnawRNwtGL5GkZCe9DQ/RJzRZASdvA-TJxXwAzfCAA2f4QZg/nEAA

I sometime change the weapons around to sp/p when using staff. So far I haven’t found any class I cannot 1v1.

The pve build is a variant of this but without the staff.

if you look at my sig you will see that i have been running a very similar build for sometime now, although some things have changed but the bases is still there.

Blades of Sabatine.5639:

So far I haven’t found any class I cannot 1v1

How do you deal with condi necro? Because I just can’t seem to take them.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Blades of Sabatine.5639:

So far I haven’t found any class I cannot 1v1

How do you deal with condi necro? Because I just can’t seem to take them.

One thing is, I try not to take them on head on, use your stealth to get close and then shatter on their head then stealth out of there. I try to play out-in out-in game type.

Out - rang with iduelist, SP and confusing image for bleed Torment and confusion damage
In - ileap, blurred frenzy, mirror image for shatter and The Prestige to get out back into rang.

Game play,
start with sp/p, summon iduelist, decoy then roll, you now have 3 illusion up
Cast Confusion image then shatter
roll again to summon an illusion
cast ileap then swap
use blurred frenzy then shatter what illusions you have up
right away use mirror images and shatter
(you can roll out if you have it so you now have 3 illusion to shatter)
then use The prestige to get out of there fast.

If you feel you are in too much of a damage or don’t want them to get out of shatter rang, you can use Signet of Domination to stun them.

The condi damage and over all damage this put out will put them very low.

Hope this helps.

I was trying a bunker build in preparation for the beta ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Chrono-bunker/first ) and I found that in general, the “utility” phantasm just don’t work in PvP because they die too fast. In general I will say most phantasms don’t work in PvP outside of their first burst, but it is more annoying for the utility phantasms as to really be worth it instead of a similar non-phantasm utility, they would need to run at least twice. This is especially true considering they are meant as utilities for the whole team, but they don’t stand a chance in team fight!

So I think keeping low HP for damage phantasm makes sense, but utility phantasm (iDefender and iDisenchanter) would need the same number of HP in PvP as in PvE.
What do you think?