Guild Wars 2

Im happy with this nerf, but i am afraid they will nerf some of the fun stuff. Honestly, i see where you are coming from, this is a very tricky issue. Mesmer condition builds were probably not going to be “meta” and even less so now. But nontheless, a celestial torment shatter build was putting out SO much damage. I traited full inspiration and it still put out too much torment to handle. So it was overly strong (op) in 1v1s and small fights but it would probably still not be meta even before the nerf. I still think it was necessary, it was a VERY faceroll build.

I just made this post in pvp section, il copy and paste what i put because im lazy . ps. this was BEFORE i jsut found out the nerfed MtD…which is a total joke.

This was a response to the argument condition builds cant keep up with the big power burst going on right now:

i disagree. I’ve been playing ranked condition shatter, and 90% of the time winning, and very comfortably at that. And this is playing against ESL players, not hotjoiners.
However, its because condition shatter is totally different to the other condition builds out there, which rely on stacking and sustain.

The beauty of condition shatter right now is the ability to stack on avrage 15+ confusion and 15-20 torment in a matter of seconds. Now this kind of condi bombing is on par with the power burst, honestly. I can literally 100%-0 in 5 seconds if i get the stacks up. Torment ticks for 4k+ alone, with 15-20 stacks.
I kill npcs faster than power.

So, please do NOT nerf MtD or torment in general ANET. It’s early days but i firmly believe condition shatter will have a place in this meta purely because it goes against the concept of other condi builds (being bunkerish, sustain, cc, covering condis with bait ones etc).

Condition shatter; you can, stack 2x torment, 2x confusion, blind, stun/daze, boon strip, slow, increase cd on interrupted skills with ONE shatter…..craaazzzzzy.
Also the Gm scepter trait is sick (Malicious Sorcery) , <3 anet for it. 15% inc speed on scepter skills, so it no longer feels lik a slow sluggish weapon now. Also, the 20% reduction making scepter block +5 torment stacks on a 6 ’ SIX!!!!’ second cd….so good.
I’m gonna keep theory crafting but the only hard counter i can see right now are diamond skin eles and thats only in a 1v1 situation. Everything else, assuming you have a good skill level with shatter (including thieves :p) simply cannot handle the condi spikes.
I’m even getting hate w/ because they think im PU (im not) or people generally saying “omg is this the new mesmers now, its aids” etc etc.

For anyone interested, this is the build im using: If you know how to play shatter or pre patch condi shatter….have fun!

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R3lZ;1VPVz047cVF71;9;4STW;0038138258;4V3X6U;1j2;42y

Liam McColgan.7689:

I’m gonna keep theory crafting but the only hard counter i can see right now are diamond skin eles and thats only in a 1v1 situation.

Use Rampagers (900 power, 900 condi, 1200 crit), Your condi DMG will still really good.

open with your mindwhack shatter, and they’re not that hard to kill….

Yeh i agree, rabid doesnt have the damage to get them below the threshold to the destroy them. But good eles will make it hard anyway. And in a tourney/pvp setting they wont be >90% for long unless you are 1v1ing, but even then you shouldnt be 1v1ing an ele even as power. So keeping the toughness from rabid is a better trade-off seeing it’s stronger in every sense.

Surely it would have been better for Anet to balance conditions across the board before nerfing specific condition application traits?

Whats really funny is a lot of the changes for Mesmer was to make it so every build had to shatter to be effective. 10 hours later and the best thing for a condie mesmer to do is to camp in stealth while staff or scepter clones auto attack.

Simonoly.4352:

Surely it would have been better for Anet to balance conditions across the board before nerfing specific condition application traits?

On one class for one trait by 50%. Agreed. No it’s not the 5k burning that’s the problem, it’s the 2k Torments. lol!

Exciton.8942:

Now I tried the condie mesmer.
Have to say condie combined with PU even after nerf is still pretty strong in 1v1.

Prior to the patch I ran GS & Sc/P with MtD, Phant Haste, Phant +15% dmg, DE. It was a hybrid build that lacked stealth but it had flexibility and it was extremely engaging and active to play. I could pop the iClint and shatter it along with my clones at will, which provided the pressure and burst I needed to kill things before they killed me and my 1100 Toughness with no stealth (beyond Decoy and MI).

That build was fun. The patch made me choose with Phant Haste and MtD, without the latter the build is nothing but a weak shatter with a phantasm thrown in. Now, the torment pressure is so much weaker especially against classes that can quickly cleanse it that I have no choice but to run PU.

Which means torch. GS I can’t replace since everyone kitten out at 20% and all I do half the day is chase people. Does it work? Yes, comfortably, with little risk to me, but the fights take longer and I spend half the time using my GS and the other standing stealthed. Oooo, engaging.

sry to say anet i really try rly rly
now i cant stand versus thief, guard, ele , warrior not to mention hardly contribute to team fight in pvp

mainly you put mtd now as 1v1 and roaming build like the former on clone death pu build

I’ll continue this =0

tetrodoxin.2134:

1. Anet introduced MtD, a underpowered GM trait applying 1 torment on shatter.
2. They buffed it, now applying 2 torment on shatter. Some people actually start playing with the trait.
3. Anet then teases us new traits like increased torment damage and confusion on crit.
4. Anet completely scraps those traits, cause they might be too powerful in a condi build.
5. MtD gets nerfed back to its original pitiful state because of those theoretical traits that never existed.

6. Anet realizes that conditions are too strong and they’ll nerf them globally (one way or another)
7. They’ll forget about the knee jerk-MtD nerf, leaving it even worse than at its initial implementation.

:P

the thing that really stings (and stinks) is that it feels like while everyone else’s meta will have time to settle down in a few weeks, mesmer condi meta “has been settled” by anet in less than 10 hours based on “golem testing”… unfair much?

+1 knee-jerk balancing at its best.

I agree. It was changed prematurely. I also don’t think it was warranted … though have had less than a day to playtest it … but I see far worse things now in-game than 1 to 4 extra stacks of Torment per shatter.

The only silver lining I can see is that MtD no longer competes with IP … so, if they keep this nerf, the trait may not go back to being useless like it did when it was a GM in the only trait system … but I think Might on shatter might have it beat in most scenarios.

Why does the Mesmer suffer. We finally had some fun toys to actually stand up to the holy meta classes. A more logical approach would have been to tone down conditions first across the board then take each class and update together. This would fix the problem with conditions first, then from a company stand point show an unbiased professional approach to fixing classes. Whether they are biased the picking of one class and not letting things settle and taking objective notes shows some hatred.

I vote to revert back this nerf if they remove 50 seconds of stealth. Otherwise keep it the same.

Feral.3609:

I vote to revert back this nerf if they remove 50 seconds of stealth. Otherwise keep it the same.

yo Feral, I see you main guardian, wanna talk about your burning by any chance?

Menaka.5092:

Feral.3609:

I vote to revert back this nerf if they remove 50 seconds of stealth. Otherwise keep it the same.

yo Feral, I see you main guardian, wanna talk about your burning by any chance?

Guardian is a meta class, its allowed to be OP.

+1 this myself. I don’t even run condition shatter but the point was to be to encourage all mesmer types to shatter. So flip floppy …

Yeah, the worst part of this is that tetrodoxin is right.

Conditions are way too strong at the moment, and there will almost definitely be some blanket nerfs to tone them down. Unfortunately, MtD is going to be forgotten when that happens, and will be even more worthless than ever.

Fay.2357:

Yeah, the worst part of this is that tetrodoxin is right.

Conditions are way too strong at the moment, and there will almost definitely be some blanket nerfs to tone them down. Unfortunately, MtD is going to be forgotten when that happens, and will be even more worthless than ever.

if they gonna nerf more down conditions its means condi mesmer will be nerf to the ground .
anet needs to nerf each class application and not the condition itself

so seeing what they did to mesmer they probably gonna do that all classes wide which means condition still be left out of the meta (pve, wvw and pvp but not 1v1)

Just realized this is in the Mesmer forums. So it probably won’t get seen anyway.

Fay.2357:

…. there will almost definitely be some blanket nerfs to tone them down. Unfortunately, MtD is going to be forgotten when that happens, and will be even more worthless than ever.

Sadly, this does fit the patterns of the past.
(1) Specific nerf to a Mesmer skill
(2) Broad-stroke nerf to mechanic that Mesmer skill fell under … without reverting the first nerf or accounting for it

The sound of a thousand knees jerking in Bellevue…

You’re kidding me. MtD already got whacked? (Seriously, I was playing around with the new stuff till almost 7 PM EST … we were still good, then.)

I swear, this really smells like the Mesmer version of the Dhuumfire business.

1. Add Torment to Mesmers in general, and create MtD Trait.
2. Buff the Torment from MtD
3. Decide that overall Mesmer condi application is too much
4. Not only remove Confusing Combatants before it goes live, but also nerf MtD
5. Guaranteed, even if condi application across the board is dropped/modified, MtD will still be dropped down. And, we’ll still not get CC back in.

I think I found a bug. Hitting sell junk at the vendor doesn’t get rid of the nerfed version of this skill.

Sebrent.3625:

Fay.2357:

…. there will almost definitely be some blanket nerfs to tone them down. Unfortunately, MtD is going to be forgotten when that happens, and will be even more worthless than ever.

Sadly, this does fit the patterns of the past.
(1) Specific nerf to a Mesmer skill
(2) Broad-stroke nerf to mechanic that Mesmer skill fell under … without reverting the first nerf or accounting for it

we all remember what happened with confusion and glamours…

Yep … confusion + glamours was one of the major ones …

Sadly, if they had left it the way it was, we might have seen a far less zerg-driven WvW meta … since a mindless zerg spamming abilities does quite poorly when you apply confusion to them ;-)

I can’t play this anymore with Sword/Torch + Staff.

It sucks, the damage pressure is pathetic without scepter and staff auto attacks which do the majority of the heavy lifting.

Very unhappy because Sword/Torch + Staff MtD was a lot of fun prior to this patch.

GUYS go play condi ele

15 stacks of burning
10 stacks of bleeding
blind
immobilze

with celestial even

OMG

anet go test another golem in the mist

Every match I am going in tonight is filled with Engies who can keep up high stacks of all condies on you at all times.

How was Mesmer nerfed before this? I’m really kittened of at this now.

IMHO somebody from anet loves play PU and can’t stand any other condi build -.- , if you want take dmg from MtD give us some control instead eg. Enemies hit by shatter skills are inflicted with torment and whenever you youse shatter skill you inflict 2 sec chill around you (you can give icd for 4 -5sec).

Exactly – condition builds on other classes are insane.

Even at 2 stacks, MtD struggled against some ele builds among other things and I didn’t find it “overpowered”.

I’d sooner delete PU from the game (yes I’m biased) if it meant getting 2 torment stacks on MtD back.

Curunen.8729:

I’d sooner delete PU from the game (yes I’m biased) if it meant getting 2 torment stacks on MtD back.

+1

MailMail.6534:

Curunen.8729:

I’d sooner delete PU from the game (yes I’m biased) if it meant getting 2 torment stacks on MtD back.

+1

if you pu then you cant cap in tpvp so basically pu stays as wvw roaming build – who cares about roaming with stealth – go play thief
mtd must be back even if they nerf all other class condi application

be sure that if i saw mtd with 1 stack was ok i would have said so and demonstrate how. but its far from it

for now i am done with condi mesmer. power it is and condi ele ftw or engi

As of right now, confusion is our strongest and pretty much only source of condition damage applications if the enemy attacks, confusion simply by itself is too little in terms of a condition build when a enemy can simply run away with little to no punishment while he waits for the duration to expire, or simply clear it. With the 2 stacks of torment there was atleast the possibility of condi spike if we land a successful shatter. Even then there is dodge, aegis, and all sorts of things to worry about that balances it out.

Countless

What is this doing on the second page!?

I’m determined to keep this in full view until something is done to make condition shatter playable again.

Curunen.8729:

I’d sooner delete PU from the game (yes I’m biased) if it meant getting 2 torment stacks on MtD back.

The new PU annoys me. I hate it when I need a specific trait to utilize a specific elite skill. More so than with normal skills, although it’s bad enough for those. Which is why the removal of those 20% CD traits and having them baked into the skills was so awesome, it moves power where it belongs, into the base skill, so all specs have all abilities useful and pick according to context only.

I’d rather have MI be baseline 10s and PU not add duration. :’(

+1. Revert to 2 stacks of torment please.

1 stack is just far too weak… it does nothing.

There is no condi mesmer without MtD being a strong trait. There is no point in scepter or staff without condi build.

Landing shatters is not faceroll damage like how other classes click a button and numbers fly. Clones take time to create. Clones do not live long in group pvp, clones have a few seconds to run to their target before they fail. Shatter can be dodged easily as you see clones running at you. Shatter kills your passive damage from phantasms and clones. The new IP baseline adds MtD damage but puts the mesmer in melee range.

I seriously don’t know what to do with my mesmer anymore, if I wanted to play a melee power class I would not be playing mesmer. Please don’t make me play engineer or ranger…

Niminion.1982:

There is no condi mesmer without MtD being a strong trait. There is no point in scepter or staff without condi build.

Landing shatters is not faceroll damage like how other classes click a button and numbers fly. Clones take time to create. Clones do not live long in group pvp, clones have a few seconds to run to their target before they fail. Shatter can be dodged easily as you see clones running at you. Shatter kills your passive damage from phantasms and clones. The new IP baseline adds MtD damage but puts the mesmer in melee range.

I seriously don’t know what to do with my mesmer anymore, if I wanted to play a melee power class I would not be playing mesmer. Please don’t me me play engineer or ranger…

Agreed.

I’m actually tempted to reroll melee ranger because it’s a lot more fun than what we have at the moment.

MtD was not really OP… Right now with a 6 clone burst I can get 8 stacks of it on a target. With rabid amulet they tick for ~1200 which lasts like 4 seconds (it says 7, but it takes time for the clones to catch up and pile the torment on). Not to mention this is predictable and dodge-able and requires the mesmer to be in point blank range. With the old MtD this would be 16 stacks, ticking for presumably ~2400. Compare this to engie and ele who are currently enjoying 7-8k burn ticks, and I don’t see Anet rushing to nerf that at the moment… What the hell?

Edit: Oh yeah, and this combo is even less likely to hit when fighting on point because of all the aoe cleaving clones before they can shatter. GG.

My entire problem with this nerf, regardless of how OP it seemed (and it wasn’t, considering mesmer is about bursting with completely avoidable cool downs and destructible fuel for those coold downs), was that it happened based on golem fights.

Not only was it based on golem fights, but it was done within 12 hours of patch.

And not only was it based on golem fights and nerfed within 12 hours of patch, it was done while EVERYONE WAS TESTING BUILDS WITH ALL THE NEW STUFF.

Seriously, so many builds with less than ideal utilities, traits, and gear. BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE TRYING NEW THINGS. SHINY NEW THINGS.

Nothing was allowed to settle, builds are still in process of testing and developing, and people that were completely not spec’d for condi at all were getting destroyed by condi.

But of course, none of this was taken into consideration, and now mesmers are yet again prematurely nerfed with no compensation. Based on 3 years of history, it will never be undone, and it likely isn’t the last major nerf we will have.

It should be reverted and allowed to be tested for at least 2 weeks while everything is sorted out. Then stepped down, not cut off at the kittening knees.

Back to 2 stacks on shatter, duration to 4 seconds.

Counter play – dodging the shatter, condi cleanse (which will again be plentiful soon enough, along with all the immunities that are prevalent now).

This is not allowed to be on page 2.

Please bring back the original MtD. I don’t want to play a super passive mesmer spamming staff 1 1 1 1 1 50% of the time…

FLIMP.8172:

This is not allowed to be on page 2.

Please bring back the original MtD. I don’t want to play a super passive mesmer spamming staff 1 1 1 1 1 50% of the time…

I couldn’t agree more.

MtD nerf was crude, callous and totally misguided – especially when comparing to all the power builds on every class dealing insane damage burst and condition builds on other classes (ie burn builds) dealing equally insane condition damage ticks.

MtD was perfectly fine at 2 stacks, even with IP.

If it’s considered too powerful when used with PU, then for goodness sake deal with PU – I dunno, decrease all condition damage and power by 50% when in stealth, or just reduce the duration and mindless boon spam.

Look at other trait combinations causing issues if necessary but for goodness sake revert MtD to 2 stacks…

IMHO combo PU + MtD (what is more such setup was possible even before patch, was it OP?) is not that strong. I would rather take CI or even drop entire chaos line and go illu/duel/dom, illu/insp/duel

PU is only strong in those 1v1 builds where it’s about keeping the enemy busy more than getting anywhere. It works miracles there and yes, in combination MtD was really strong. Only, why was MtD nerfed then, not PU? Fix root causes, not symptoms -.-

It’s #anetlogic.

PU is actually much weaker on a maim shatter build than on a power shatter build. In maim shatter, PU is mostly defense with a tiny bit of offense. In power shatter, PU is offense with a side of defense.

PU allows a power shatter build to carefully set up their stun combo from stealth, ensuring the highest chance of success. While it also allows maim to do a similar thing, maim shatter rarely takes CS, and the burst from maim is not as immediately deadly as the power burst, for obvious reasons.

Tl;dr: PU being the reason for the maim nerf makes zero sense.

guys what cant you understans

when mtd was 1 stack no one use it
then it became 2 stacks and few used it while ppl saying condi cant be in the current meta. so anet let it be
and now they saw more mesmer using this in 10 hours so they got panic (strike) and nerfed it on the basis of golem testing) which they failed to do so far (basically no difference before and after (maybe 3 stacks)

now they cant post it was a mistake (ego) so we gonna have to deal with it for 2 years

I find it funny that out of all things that were OP in the entire patch, a conditional bleed that people hardly ever stack on one of the least played professions was such a huge problem it had to be nerfed within hours. Nice job, Anet. /sarcasm