Guild Wars 2

Thinking of coming back to the game as I usually do every few months. Having been a thief main for quite awhile this time around thinking of focusing much more on my mesmer. I was wondering if shatter s/s would be viable in the meta and maybe be pointed in the direction of some solid builds. I see most are running s/t or s/f or s/p all of which I have tried in the past (mostly s/f and s/p). I’m open to either staff or g/s offhand tho i would prefer g/s off s/s main if possible. Build would be purely for roaming and spvp if possible. ( though it seems like the extra escape on torch might be to good to pass up against people who Are good at spvp)
P.s. I’ve been reading some general guides but any tips on mesmer play would be welcome as all I’ve mostly only played thief and some ele here and there. My Mesmer the least played out of my classes pvp wise.

No it is not, because as a squishy you need the defense that torch stealth or focus pull/cripple provides. Even on lockdown the off-hand sword struggles to compete against focus (AoE pull/disable) and pistol (stun/hard CC). The daze has low CD, which I think could come in handy when CS gets buffed, but the riposte is just too slow and the phant rushes in melee cleave and dies… -_______-

I run sw+sw whenever I run shatter or cs lockdown. Usually sw+sw/staff, but occasionally GS (when I’m not busy hating on it). Mostly because it allows me to double-trait the weapon.

Unfortunately I’m on my phone, and can’t give many tips, but it does work. The sword phantasm actually doesn’t run into melee range and has a slight invuln on its leap attack. Riposte is strong, but leaves you so open that its best used against a single target. Its good to have some defense to match the offensive style of sw/sw which is why I tend to run staff with it.

I prefer it over pistol and focus in shatter, but while I’m not a fan of the torch, it is a very strong option for shatter

Sword+Sword is quite viable.
There are definite pros/cons to each

You’ll generally find me running Sword+Sword if I’m running a non-standard shatter build where I’m taking Blade Training (the non-standard part) and Illusionary Celerity.

This gives you two -20% cooldown traits that affect Illusionary Leap (#3), Illusionary Riposte (#4), and Phantasmal Swordsman (#5). This can be quite nice

That being said … to truly benefit from this, you need to be very comfortable in melee range … and there are some things you just don’t want to be in melee range with very long.

thank you for the quick replies will prob try both tonight to start to get a better feel for them.

Works for me whenever I play my mesmer. I do prefer the Torch or Focus off-hand for Shatter builds though. But I love to go Sw/Sw for Lockdown builds

Sure it’s viable, maybe not in high End tpvp, there you need some defense. But for roaming and spvp, it works really great. The burst is high, the block is nice and the phantasm hit strong. I play it sometimes with staff, found it stronger and I have more fun with it because of staff “safe stomp” and other nice things haha. But love staff anyway, so maybe its a personal opinion.

Everything is viable if you go low enough on the ladder, but sword is the least useful off hand currently. And don’t try playing shatter in 2015 without a GS unless your goals include MMR free falling.

^ playing shatter without gs is fine

Many of us used to play Shatter with Staff / Sword+Sword all the time to great results.

Not sure what has changed that has people feeling this is less plausible nowadays.

Sebrent.3625:

Many of us used to play Shatter with Staff / Sword+Sword all the time to great results.

Not sure what has changed that has people feeling this is less plausible nowadays.

Because you are likely playing it to great reasults vs not so great players.

witcher.3197:

Sebrent.3625:

Many of us used to play Shatter with Staff / Sword+Sword all the time to great results.

Not sure what has changed that has people feeling this is less plausible nowadays.

Because you are likely playing it to great reasults vs not so great players.

I don’t see your point. If he is able to successfully use a build against his competition (whether they are great or poor is irrelevant) then the build has accomplished what he set it out to do. Why rain on his parade with comments that imply, go meta or go home?

witcher.3197:

Sebrent.3625:

Many of us used to play Shatter with Staff / Sword+Sword all the time to great results.

Not sure what has changed that has people feeling this is less plausible nowadays.

Because you are likely playing it to great reasults vs not so great players.

Witcher.. Be honest with me, isn’t like 85% of the PvP playerbase “not so great”?

The OP is new to Mesmer, he needs something to fall back on for defensive options especially when running shatter. Sw+sw/Staff works and it works very well until you run up against tournament-level Mesmer… And then it still works, but likely not as well as greatsword would. (I honestly can’t say since I don’t have the personal experience of running shatter at that level)

Shatter is hard enough to learn as it is, especially if the OP isn’t running torch. Should they learn to use the GS as well? Of course, but if s/he finds more entertainment in using Staff then that’s fine too. Circumstances, such as what level of competition s/he reaches, will decide on whether or not they have to make that switch and by then they wouldn’t even have to ask the question.

@OP: Wanted tips? Check out this guide from the top shatter Mesmer in NA.

so witcher says because something which isnt meta, it only works against bad players? lol

Witcher … when did you start playing GW2? Mesmer?

Dual Swords w/ Staff used to be THE Shatter build.

Now, over time the Sword has had #2 and #3 nerfed a bit while #1 has been slightly buffed so things have changed … but it’s not some weird way to play shatter that is horrible … in fact, you have more defense in Sword+Sword/Staff than you do with Greatsword/Staff. I’d argue you’re more self-sustaining with Sword+Sword. Greatsword is great when you have teammates that allow you to pew-pew from the edge of the fight or you’re playing only against opponents that suck at closing the gap against a Mesmer that is kiting them.

MandJ.8965:

so witcher says because something which isnt meta, it only works against bad players? lol

Never said that, it’s a very ignorant statement on your part. But there are builds between “meta” and “bad”, actually plenty of them. S/S is not one of those.

Sebrent.3625:

Dual Swords w/ Staff used to be THE Shatter build.

And Axe/Shiel GS used to be THE warrior build. Times change. Yes, I remember that S/S and no-GS used to be a thing, but many things have changed since that. Overall DPS got higher across the classes, people got better at the game etc. GS is by far the best DPS weapon a mesmer has for PvP atm, and without it you lose most of your teamfight/ranged capabilities too. Regarding off-hand sword, blocking a single attack every ~12 seconds is nothing compared to a skill which gives stealth and deals AoE blind.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

(…)

Torch is a better defensive option than off-hand sword, OP should definitely use that. Staff S/S is a duel spec which still can’t hold a point. As a mesmer your best chance of survival is outdamaging your opponent which is significantly harder without GS.

TL;DR Shatter mes is a hard and squishy spec which does not win fights by outsustaining others, I’m not sure if taking away damage/stealth from it helps anyone.

Ah, I was comparing Sword+Sword to the Greatsword in a double-ranged shatter build which uses Greatsword / Staff … swapping out Greatsword for Sword+Sword.

I think the Sword+Sword is a more aggressive version of Sword+Torch given that:

• It has improved illusion generation (lower cooldown on phantasm, additional clone summon on block)
• It has improved damage as iSwordsman damage > iMage damage

Given the nature of Mesmer blocks, I agree that stealth is far better defense at countering focused fire than a single-hit block … though it can be helpful in setting up a shatter combo … though good opponents see the illusions summons that happen before the shatter, count out the stealth, etc. so its far less “powerful” than Thief’s offensive use of stealth.

I think it does boil down to what you’re doing though.

Team Fights … Double-Ranged shatter is possibly a better bet than Sword+Torch/Greatsword … which, btw, is not “Classic Shatter” … that name for it on Metabattle is incorrect imo. Staff provides excellent illusion generation, some CC and AOE damage, as well as boons and fair damage. It also allows for excellent mobility which can be an alternative to stealth when countering being focused.

Dueling … depends on your opponent. All sorts of options open up here and vie for “best” depending on you and your opponent’s builds.

Roaming … stealth is really darn good in roaming. I think this is why we often find several 1vX videos with the Mesmer using Torch on one of their weapon sets as well as Decoy as one of their three utilities.

Conquest … stealth is great, except it prevents you from contesting a point so if you can get the same (or better) results with double-ranged shatter (or a different build) then I’d recommend it.

witcher.3197:

(…)

Most of your comments are very black and white (e.g., "Torch is a better defensive option than off-hand sword, OP should definitely use that. ") when there are a lot of grey areas. The OP wanted to know if S/S was viable for roaming and sPVP and as others have pointed out, it can be viable depending on the situation, playstyle, build, and desired results. That can only be decided by the OP.

I never really liked Torch because of the long cooldowns and prefer the playstyle of S/S. There are times when the extra stealth from Torch would have saved my life but there are probably just as many times where the cc (daze), block, damage from block and harder hitting phantasm with a shorter cooldown (ie. extra damage being the tipping point in killing my enemy), has saved my life as well. To me, its a much more well rounded (versatile) offhand weapon due to the combination of offensive/defensive abilities and shorter cooldowns. Plus it just looks bad-kitten .

I know others use Torch with great success so I know what its capable of but I would not say its the best and only option.

Ergh. I actually read the OP wrong. I thought they had asked if they could use s/s staff, but they actually prefer to use GS.

In that case, yes go right ahead.

@Serebent The torch is excellent in all versus formats whether or not it can contest a point. A stealth shatter burst (prestige does a bit of power damage too) is much harder to avoid and the potential to disengage from a bad situation make it pretty kitten worth it. I personally feel sword+torch / Gs is a better choice than double-ranged since its hard to justify taking staff for… Phase retreat and chaos storm over having ileap, blurred, and prestige.

@Witcher Its funny you say that, because I just told someone the same thing yesterday (as mesmer, your best chance of survival is out damaging the opponent). I don’t disagree, but I do argue that sw+sw/staff can be used effectively beyond duels.

However this inspired me to do a little interview session and get some top players’ opinions on Gs vs staff vs sword/torch in shatter.

MandJ.8965:

so witcher says because something which isnt meta, it only works against bad players? lol

There’s a logical fallacy somewhere here but with my luck I’ll link the wrong one..

That wasn’t implied, but an opposing opinion/perspective is just as valuable. Witcher works to maintain metabattle.com, which strives to keep up-to-date on meta builds run in tournaments, speed runs, ECT. His opinion comes from the perspective of someone who watches a lot of tournaments and thus a lot of top players.

He’s not saying what he’s saying to try and swing his ego around, but to try to steer the OP in the right direction from a competitive-perspective.

@Chaos:
I’m not arguing that Torch is bad. It’s obviously great. It just isn’t without its own faults. If it wasn’t without faults, you likely wouldn’t feel like doing your little interview session with top players to get their opinions.

Also … is there something about my name that messes with people’s eyes? I see Serbent Serbrent, Serebent, etc. more than I see the actual spelling.

Leodon.1564:

it can be viable depending on the situation, playstyle, and desired results. That can only be decided by the OP.

By that logic everything is viable (in very specific scenarios) and there is no point at asking questions about viability.

If out of 100 sword shatter mesmers 99 picks Torch then I think that happens for a reason. I bet I could count on one hand how many off-hand sword guys I’ve met in 2015, or 2014-’15.

Sebrent.3625:

Roaming … stealth is really darn good in roaming. I think this is why we often find several 1vX videos with the Mesmer using Torch on one of their weapon sets as well as Decoy as one of their three utilities.

Not really a WvW person, I don’t know the current situation there.

Conquest … stealth is great, except it prevents you from contesting a point

If you’re standing on the point as a mesmer that means you are doing something wrong. Btw stealth is the best thing a mesmer can have against its hardcounter, Thief. OP will likely have even more trouble fighting thieves than veterans, so that’s one of the reasons why I’d recommend that.

which, btw, is not “Classic Shatter” … that name for it on Metabattle is incorrect imo.

So glad you brought that up. It’s currently called Traditional Shatter because it existed long before Double Ranged but I was just thinking about renaming that build yesterday, I’m open to any suggestions. “Sword/Torch Shatter” or “Sword Shatter” are the current titles I have in mind, but I’d be really grateful for some better ideas. Get creative, people! xP Don’t want to end up with GS Sword/Torch Shatter, but might happen.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

However this inspired me to do a little interview session and get some top players’ opinions on Gs vs staff vs sword/torch in shatter.

That’s a good idea! Be sure to ask them if there’s a scenario where they would fight without GS.

witcher.3197:

Leodon.1564:

it can be viable depending on the situation, playstyle, and desired results. That can only be decided by the OP.

By that logic everything is viable (in very specific scenarios) and there is no point at asking questions about viability.

If out of 100 sword shatter mesmers 99 picks Torch then I think that happens for a reason. I bet I could count on one hand how many off-hand sword guys I’ve met in 2015, or 2014-’15.

Sebrent.3625:

Roaming … stealth is really darn good in roaming. I think this is why we often find several 1vX videos with the Mesmer using Torch on one of their weapon sets as well as Decoy as one of their three utilities.

Not really a WvW person, I don’t know the current situation there.

Conquest … stealth is great, except it prevents you from contesting a point

If you’re standing on the point as a mesmer that means you are doing something wrong. Btw stealth is the best thing a mesmer can have against its hardcounter, Thief. OP will likely have even more trouble fighting thieves than veterans, so that’s one of the reasons why I’d recommend that.

which, btw, is not “Classic Shatter” … that name for it on Metabattle is incorrect imo.

So glad you brought that up. It’s currently called Traditional Shatter because it existed long before Double Ranged but I was just thinking about renaming that build yesterday, I’m open to any suggestions. “Sword/Torch Shatter” or “Sword Shatter” are the current titles I have in mind, but I’d be really grateful for some better ideas. Get creative, people! xP Don’t want to end up with GS Sword/Torch Shatter, but might happen.

Hey I just wanted to interject and vouch for the staff a bit. While I don’t always use it, I find that staff on a shatter spec, even over GS is totally viable for certain matchups. If you go GS/sw/x against a DPS guard, you’ll probably be wrecked, but with staff you have a fighting chance simply because phase retreat and chaos storm are so strong. While this is WvW roaming and not pvp, Osicat would typically run masterul shatter builds using staff and sword/x (usually focus or torch though), meaning that the GS isn’t always necessary, but of course in that scenario the teamfight strenght of the GS isn’t as important as surviving is.

That being said GS is very important for damage from ranged, so I usually find GS/staff to be the safest set up to use. For Offhand sword I don’t think the selection of offhand makes a critically different build in general (I run WH on condi necro) and I think that each one has its advantages and disadvantages. The main caveat is that OH sword excels more for phantasm builds than shatter. I also feel like the torch meta will be at least partially supplanted by shield when it comes out just because its CC and support seem so strong.

@witcher:
I agree that if the Mesmer is the one capping the point, there is likely a problem … but sometimes the **** hits the fan. Heck, Shatter builds use illusionary persona … we’re not standing at max range the whole time.

I think “Prestigious Shatter” could be a good name. It highlights the very iconic ability (The Prestige) that is the main reason you take the Torch. Classic Shatter has me thinking back to the first Shattercat builds by Osicat which made me somewhat perturbed when my nostalgia wkittentered by it not being that when I saw that on Metabattle :-p

@nearlight:
Didn’t Osicat start with Staff / Sword + Pistol … then gravitated towards Sword + Sword … then later Sword + Focus … not really important, just trying to keep my memory working.

I think Osi using torch came after I started my year-long break from the game.

I think you may be right about the Shield replacing the Torch in some builds, but really I think we’re going to have several builds and weapon combinations become much more viable with the new Specializations coming out …. and even more when we get Chronomancer with the expansion.

witcher.3197:

Leodon.1564:

it can be viable depending on the situation, playstyle, and desired results. That can only be decided by the OP.

By that logic everything is viable (in very specific scenarios) and there is no point at asking questions about viability.

If out of 100 sword shatter mesmers 99 picks Torch then I think that happens for a reason. I bet I could count on one hand how many off-hand sword guys I’ve met in 2015, or 2014-’15.

Yes, I kind of do feel that every weapon is viable for roaming/sPVP (casual play) in which the majority are not “great” players as you say. Weapons aren’t horribly balanced against each other (well, maybe scepter :P); there are pros and cons to each. Ultimately, what the OP decides to use will be based on his preference but I think he just wanted to hear some affirmation on whether or not there were other S/S users who have had success with the weapon combo and their experiences.

I don’t deny that off-hand sword users are less common to see (I kind of like that) but that is not what the OP was questioning as he already mentioned that other sword/x combinations were more prevalent.

If the build is on metabattle or some other site people share builds, it will be more prevalent.

I’m sure I’m not the only one that has mentioned some trait to people that play the class and they had no clue what I was talking about if even they are actually using it … because they don’t spend any more brainpower on their builds than to copy & paste what someone/something told them.

So, OP asks if S/S – GS is viable. As beginner: No. As veteran? Yes. If you can play that sure.

@ Chaos

Yea, sure witcher knows what he is talking about. But I love staff, near every build of mine is with staff and i beated most toptier mesmer players with it. So, for me its viable. For others too, but maybe for him not.
If you can play better with gs, why not using this. But if you can play better with staff, why not using staff. I think it comes to the player experience when you talk about two different weapons in the same build.

First off just wanted to say thanks a lot for all the great feedback. I tried both tonight with varied success since I’m pretty rusty in general anyway I had mild success with both. I’m not a completely new mesmer, just have never thought to really try getting into it on top of never trying torch :p. I will say the extra stealth was extremely helpful and being someone who basically only played thief on and off for 2 years having extra stealth is very nice lol. So far I think I will stick with the torch for all of tommrow as I will finally have a full play session. I’m guessing I’m not quite ready for a lockdown build which seems to be the best way to play s/s. It’s not that I don’t understand all the other classes and what to look for more like I feel very slow to recognize things when comig back usually takes a few weeks to feel truly comfortable again. So in a little you will prob hear from me again asking about sword/sword lockdown lol. Again thanks for the feedback and if the spelling was butchered apologies I am on my phone.

Weapon sets on shatter depend on how the player wants to play the build, I rely on sword/sword and staff so I can get back and kite until I have a position of shatter open, and the sword offhand has the block that does up to 3,000 on a critical hit, I also use the Illusionary Swordsman for extra pressure that torch offhand can’t give. Then on the other hand, the sword lacks blind and stealth. So like I said, it’s how the player wants to play.