Guild Wars 2

There seems to be a lot of controversy about the scepter AA buff, so I thought I’d make this thread for people to focus the discussion on just that (and by “discussion”, I mean talk about why it’s a terrible idea).

I like the other buffs, but scepter AA didn’t need torment. I have no idea what Anet’s vision is, but condi mesmer didn’t need a buff. I worry that this does even more to proliferate the “condi meta” and threatens the health of the game.

If I got it right (since I didnt check the vid myself),what we are in fact talking about is 3stacks of torment at max every 3 secs that last for 2 seconds ( 3 in wvw prolly) and for that the mesmer would have to be autoattacking so as to maintain them. Now suppose we talking about pu builds they hardly use aa to begin with and anyone who tries to use it with pu will surely underperform. Now for non pu builds I think it ll only work to keep some condi pressure netween bleed bursts or miaim shatters. All in all the only thing it can do for pu is help presure people that wait to burst down a pu by not attacking. As for condi meta ie buff is imo of greater impact. Of course mesmer not having good aggressive condi builds wont stop the meta as it hasnt for so long.

More condition spam is certainly not needed, but it seems this is the game we play and most professions can do it decently with basic attacks on weapons deemed “condition” by Anet. Apparently this is what Anet wants to do with mesmer, in spite of the fact that in the past they wanted scepter to be more of a support weapon. I thought that was great, but this is what they came up with.

I’d rather them come up with something else. The last thing I want is even more QQ about PU and condition mesmer in general and I believe that would happen with this change. But if torment has to be a thing with scepter, I’d rather see it retained as described on the mesmer’s AA, but not on the scepter clone AA’s.

Also for those that aren’t aware, during the RU skill bar, helseth was able to get Karl’s attention in saying this change was OP and would result in bad things. Karl said “noted”. So the devs are aware. If we are loud enough, we probably have sway to change their minds on the implementation of their torment idea, but I’m guessing likely not the function itself.

Eodwen.2613:

If I got it right (since I didnt check the vid myself),what we are in fact talking about is 3stacks of torment at max every 3 secs that last for 2 seconds ( 3 in wvw prolly) and for that the mesmer would have to be autoattacking so as to maintain them.

Even if you’re underestimating the amount of torment, what you’ve described is already very significant. It’s not just about how many stacks or how long they last, but also the ease of application.

Having torment on each of the scepter AA’s, and on scepter clones, makes torment extremely easy to apply. What this means is that you can effectively maintain permanent torment on your opponent, and they’ll be unable to cleanse it all. At best, it’s another cover condi that they have to cleanse, but torment also does pretty good damage, meaning you could finish opponents with scepter AA alone.

Add this to the bleeds, confusions, long duration torment, and burning that mesmers can apply, and you have an extremely powerful condi build.

Eodwen.2613:

Now suppose we talking about pu builds they hardly use aa to begin with and anyone who tries to use it with pu will surely underperform.

PU builds do autoattack. The point is to maintain permanent torment so that they have one more condition to cleanse. Almost all builds autoattack fairly frequently.

Eodwen.2613:

Now for non pu builds I think it ll only work to keep some condi pressure netween bleed bursts or miaim shatters. All in all the only thing it can do for pu is help presure people that wait to burst down a pu by not attacking.

Not fighting a PU mesmer was one of the best ways to counter the build, but it’ll be much more difficult now. With scepter 2, at least there was some counterplay involved, where an opponent could simply wait out the block or dodge the application. It’s impossible to do either with the scepter AA.

Eodwen.2613:

As for condi meta ie buff is imo of greater impact. Of course mesmer not having good aggressive condi builds wont stop the meta as it hasnt for so long.

IE fix + scepter AA buff makes condi mesmer insanely good. At least with the IE fix, damage in tons of builds will be improved, power builds included. And condi mesmers are one of the main culprits behind the condi meta. They didn’t need to be buffed.

Raise Awareness: Helseth on Mesmer RU

Maybe will see more support and tank builds since no one wants to play those.

All the change did was creating the shatter condition mesmer and fix a underpowered weapon. Mesmer is still a 1v1 class and pvp is still conquest I can’t understand the fear since any +1k ranged weapon owns PU and condition necro,engi…..and mix of popular and non-popular builds have the same effect. Increased of builds used leads to builds to counter them promoting a well organized team not one full of glassy nukers.

Who knows maybe more will be interested in stats,traits and gear other than damage only. It’s 5v5 you can be as glassy as you want as long as your squad make up for your weakness. Self made duels are against the logic of the game they want to do everything their way (solo way).

I really don’t get what people are whining about with the Scepter AA change. I really wonder if these people have actually ever used Scepter, especially the AA. It’s a slow moving, relatively slow attack-rate, medium range attack that does poor direct damage. It was one of the worst AAs in the game, with a meaningless end of the AA chain. Same for the Clones that it created, they were the most useless clones of all weapons BY FAR.

Giving it Torment makes it only marginally more likely that you’re ever going to stand there and AA, basically only when everything else is down and you have nothing else left to do. It’s a short Torment and you’re not going to ever AA enough to keep any meaningful amount of Torment up unless you also use Scepter clones & #2.

And clearly, if that last part has you worried, you don’t understand what iEasticity fix will do to ALREADY stronger staff clones. (Stronger then the Tormenting Scepter ones I mean.)

It will make PU/Condie a tad stronger and most of us agree that’s not a good side effect, but clearly the problem there is NOT Scepter, but PU. I’m sure we’ll see adjustments to PU once a few other builds become more reasonably viable. I just think ANet is worried about killing off PU before knowing how the new changes work out, and alienating Mesmer players even more then they have already.

I think it’s a good change, and a great move on ANets part to choose the right condition for the Scepter. A single Bleed stack for example would simply not have been enough for both the clones and the AA, but Torment gives the enemy the option to have a weak nuisance of a Condie ticking away on you if you stand still, or a relatively strong one if you move.

It’s as much a control ability as it is a condition damage ability. That’s why it fits the Mesmer perfectly to have more of it! (Especially since they’re keeping Confusion weak.)

Lol, mango clearly doesn’t play Mesmer very well, if at all :P

The bottom line is, torment is easier to fight than another condi application AA such as bleeding from Ranger short bow or bleeding/poison from Necro scepter (both of which have faster AA chains and faster projectiles than Mesmer chains). I mean, seriously compare this to Necro scepter. Necro have infinite projectile speed, the attacks themselves are faster, and there’s two separate conditions in the chain, which makes each of them harder to clear. Additionally, this chain reduces your healing by 33%. And as a cherry on top, Necro has so much condi burst that you can easily bury the bleeding and poison under have a dozen other conditions.

Oh, mango, in case you couldn’t find the Necro forums, I linked them for you. And if you’re going to continue being innept on the forums, you should probably move over to the Warrior forums, where you can’t find a single intelligent idea. I feel like you might fit in there.

Necro forums: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer
Warrior forums: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior

Please stop wasting space in a generally intelligent forum. Thank you.

Windwalker.7421:

Giving it Torment makes it only marginally more likely that you’re ever going to stand there and AA, basically only when everything else is down and you have nothing else left to do. It’s a short Torment and you’re not going to ever AA enough to keep any meaningful amount of Torment up unless you also use Scepter clones & #2.

And clearly, if that last part has you worried, you don’t understand what iEasticity fix will do to ALREADY stronger staff clones. (Stronger then the Tormenting Scepter ones I mean.)

No one just stands there and AA’s. You have the 1 skill on auto and you can weave in torments in between other skills. Again, it’s not just the duration or number of stacks, it’s the ease of application that’s problematic. A very strong damaging condition on both clones and AA means it’s impossible for your enemies to cleanse it all, and it provides you another condi that they’d cleanse before other condi’s, only to have it reapplied the next second.

Yes, the IE buff will also buff condi mesmers. But IE also buffs a number of other builds. And IE + staff clones are still a smaller threat than torment on scepter AA. The only condi you inflict on staff is from AA and (briefly) chaos storm. On scepter, you have 5 stacks of torment on 2, and 5 stacks of confusion on 3. Tons of bleeds if you take pistol, and burning if you take torch.

It’s the combination of this scepter AA buff, in addition to the already strong condi output on scepter, that makes this ridiculous.

Windwalker.7421:

It will make PU/Condie a tad stronger and most of us agree that’s not a good side effect, but clearly the problem there is NOT Scepter, but PU. I’m sure we’ll see adjustments to PU once a few other builds become more reasonably viable. I just think ANet is worried about killing off PU before knowing how the new changes work out, and alienating Mesmer players even more then they have already.

The problem is scepter, and not PU. Even if I don’t take PU, a condi spec using rabid + scepter/pistol or scepter/torch will be ridiculously strong. It’s just even worse when you combine this with PU.

Windwalker.7421:

I think it’s a good change, and a great move on ANets part to choose the right condition for the Scepter. A single Bleed stack for example would simply not have been enough for both the clones and the AA, but Torment gives the enemy the option to have a weak nuisance of a Condie ticking away on you if you stand still, or a relatively strong one if you move.

The problem is your clones already inflict bleed on crit. Add torment and this just becomes ridiculous.

Windwalker.7421:

It’s as much a control ability as it is a condition damage ability. That’s why it fits the Mesmer perfectly to have more of it! (Especially since they’re keeping Confusion weak.)

It’s a control ability with no counterplay. Like I said, you can wait out the block or dodge scepter 2, but this scepter AA will inflict good and uncleans-able torment damage throughout the entire fight.

LCV.7245:

Lol, mango clearly doesn’t play Mesmer very well, if at all :P

The bottom line is, torment is easier to fight than another condi application AA such as bleeding from Ranger short bow or bleeding/poison from Necro scepter (both of which have faster AA chains and faster projectiles than Mesmer chains). I mean, seriously compare this to Necro scepter. Necro have infinite projectile speed, the attacks themselves are faster, and there’s two separate conditions in the chain, which makes each of them harder to clear. Additionally, this chain reduces your healing by 33%. And as a cherry on top, Necro has so much condi burst that you can easily bury the bleeding and poison under have a dozen other conditions.

Oh, mango, in case you couldn’t find the Necro forums, I linked them for you. And if you’re going to continue being innept on the forums, you should probably move over to the Warrior forums, where you can’t find a single intelligent idea. I feel like you might fit in there.

Necro forums: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer
Warrior forums: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior

Please stop wasting space in a generally intelligent forum. Thank you.

Hey, nice personal attack. I have 1k+ hours on mesmer, but that’s irrelevant. I see tons of other mesmers (Pyro, Helseth, etc.) are equally concerned about this. Maybe you think they’re also “inept” at the class.

I’m going to read past the ad hominem and address your point directly. The difference between this and, say, a necro’s AA or a pistol thief’s AA, is that your clones will also apply it. Scepter 2 + deceptive evasion allows you to spawn scepter clones very easily, and they’ll apply torment even while you sit in stealth or use other skills. It’s much worse than a mere condi on AA because it’s so much easier to apply.

mango.9267:

LCV.7245:

Lol, mango clearly doesn’t play Mesmer very well, if at all :P

The bottom line is, torment is easier to fight than another condi application AA such as bleeding from Ranger short bow or bleeding/poison from Necro scepter (both of which have faster AA chains and faster projectiles than Mesmer chains). I mean, seriously compare this to Necro scepter. Necro have infinite projectile speed, the attacks themselves are faster, and there’s two separate conditions in the chain, which makes each of them harder to clear. Additionally, this chain reduces your healing by 33%. And as a cherry on top, Necro has so much condi burst that you can easily bury the bleeding and poison under have a dozen other conditions.

Oh, mango, in case you couldn’t find the Necro forums, I linked them for you. And if you’re going to continue being innept on the forums, you should probably move over to the Warrior forums, where you can’t find a single intelligent idea. I feel like you might fit in there.

Necro forums: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer
Warrior forums: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior

Please stop wasting space in a generally intelligent forum. Thank you.

Hey, nice personal attack. I have 1k+ hours on mesmer, but that’s irrelevant. I see tons of other mesmers (Pyro, Helseth, etc.) are equally concerned about this. Maybe you think they’re also “inept” at the class.

I’m going to read past the ad hominem and address your point directly. The difference between this and, say, a necro’s AA or a pistol thief’s AA, is that your clones will also apply it. Scepter 2 + deceptive evasion allows you to spawn scepter clones very easily, and they’ll apply torment even while you sit in stealth or use other skills. It’s much worse than a mere condi on AA because it’s so much easier to apply.

But necro has cc,transfer and higher burst,thief has sustain and control. Both have higher HP and not much boon to steal or corrupt.

Sagat.3285:

But necro has cc,transfer and higher burst,thief has sustain and control. Both have higher HP and not much boon to steal or corrupt.

Mesmers also have decent CC’s. And thieves have a much lower base hp pool than mesmers do. Thieves also have a ton of boons because of consume plasma, thrill of the crime, and power of inertia.

The problem is solely with the Torment being on Ether Bolt. Because Scepter is already a clone factory weapon, there just isn’t a real counterplay option to the endless clones popping out short duaration, frequent Torment. Cleanse? It’s 2 seconds or less before it’s back on you at max stacks from the clones. Kill a clone? It’s 2 seconds or less before that clone is back, smacking you with torment again. This isn’t even factoring in other skills or traits.

With other condition autos, it stacks up, so cleanses can shut out a good amount of damage and buy time while the re-stack. Against Scepter clones, this doesn’t happen.

Keep the Torment off of Ether Bolt. Increase the duration of the Torment on Ether Blast to compensate. The strength of Scepter clones is that there are so kitten many of them. Keep it that way.

@Sagat: Thief has higher HP than Mesmer?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The problem is solely with the Torment being on Ether Bolt. Because Scepter is already a clone factory weapon, there just isn’t a real counterplay option to the endless clones popping out short duaration, frequent Torment. Cleanse? It’s 2 seconds or less before it’s back on you at max stacks from the clones. Kill a clone? It’s 2 seconds or less before that clone is back, smacking you with torment again. This isn’t even factoring in other skills or traits.

With other condition autos, it stacks up, so cleanses can shut out a good amount of damage and buy time while the re-stack. Against Scepter clones, this doesn’t happen.

Keep the Torment off of Ether Bolt. Increase the duration of the Torment on Ether Blast to compensate. The strength of Scepter clones is that there are so kitten many of them. Keep it that way.

@Sagat: Thief has higher HP than Mesmer?

I agree with everything here. I don’t mind torment on all of the AA chain, but I don’t think clones should also apply torment. Alternatively, they could make it something like a 50% chance to proc on crit. Right now, the pressure from scepter AA + clones would be too ridiculous.

mango.9267:

Sagat.3285:

But necro has cc,transfer and higher burst,thief has sustain and control. Both have higher HP and not much boon to steal or corrupt.

Mesmers also have decent CC’s. And thieves have a much lower base hp pool than mesmers do. Thieves also have a ton of boons because of consume plasma, thrill of the crime, and power of inertia.

PU mesmer cc? Dire and carrion thief less hp than PU? Meta condition thief doesn’t use those traits.

Just a correction the scepter is far from a clone factory. The animation, the speed of the bolt make this a really poor way to create illusions. IMO let the changes happen then adjust. Way to much theory crafting on something not implemented yet. The next y2k only in gw2.

Sagat.3285:

mango.9267:

Sagat.3285:

But necro has cc,transfer and higher burst,thief has sustain and control. Both have higher HP and not much boon to steal or corrupt.

Mesmers also have decent CC’s. And thieves have a much lower base hp pool than mesmers do. Thieves also have a ton of boons because of consume plasma, thrill of the crime, and power of inertia.

PU mesmer cc? Dire and carrion thief less hp than PU? Meta condition thief doesn’t use those traits.

Pistol 5, staff 5, sword 3, and F3 are all decent CC options that various PU mesmer builds have access to (some with access to all four). A full dire thief will have around the same hp as a mesmer with rabid + dire mixed. However, for base hp, thieves start out with much less than mesmers. And condition thieves do consume plasma (steal from mesmer) and run thrill of the crime; some of the 00644 p/d specs run both thrill of the crime and power of inertia.

But this is beyond the purpose of the thread, so I won’t go on belaboring this point.

denis.9487:

Just a correction the scepter is far from a clone factory. The animation, the speed of the bolt make this a really poor way to create illusions. IMO let the changes happen then adjust. Way to much theory crafting on something not implemented yet. The next y2k only in gw2.

It’s not just the AA that summons clones. Scepter 2 is a very short cd block that can summon a clone, and deceptive evasion lets you summon one whenever you have a dodge. Put all of it together, and scepter actually does very well at summoning clones.

Torment by itself is already a fairly strong condition. But consider it outside a vacuum for a second.

Easily applicable torment along side easy bleed applications, confusion from scepter #3, perplexity runes, etc. It makes it pretty overbearing and highly pressuring. Plus you have veggie pizza which gives you 40% more condition duration or points into domination and sigils that add condi duration. This adds quite a bit of time to torment.

There is no counterplay to it, besides running away. If you kill the clones, you just inflict bleeds on yourself, if you leave the clones alone they are inflicting bleeds/torment. Plus it isn’t like clone generation is a problem for mesmer.

I never understood how running away is counterplay to a Mesmer. If a warrior, thief or an elementalist is running away from you in WvW, you are preventing them from capping objectives. You are preventing them from engaging you because they know they can’t beat you. Which means if you are defending things like supply camps they can’t cap it from you. Two people might not even be able to cap it. If you are in a small group, you have other people to catch up to stragglers that are running away while you are putting loads of condi pressure on somebody.

I would much rather see buffs to other aspects of the mesmer, such as making them more GvG viable and increase build diversity (i.e, all shatter mesmers more or less go the same build). Possibly better damage on greatsword when less than 1,200 range and better sword auto-attack. Even a rework of the scepter #3 and a more reliable scepter #2. I do agree the auto needed a rework, but I am not sure if this is it.

Summoning what?? Scepter clones are the worst clones on the field. The scepter needed help. Running a main hand weapon and turning the auto attack off tells you something about this weapon. Now whether torment was correct will be seen, but the scepter needed some love.

denis.9487:

Summoning what?? Scepter clones are the worst clones on the field. The scepter needed help. Running a main hand weapon and turning the auto attack off tells you something about this weapon. Now whether torment was correct will be seen, but the scepter needed some love.

I agree that scepter AA could use a buff, but this buff is too much. Considering the builds that use scepter, this buffs mesmers in all the places it didn’t need to be buffed.

There have been a number of other suggestions for how to buff scepter in previous threads. What’s clear is that the current buff is a terrible idea.

We can only judge what is functioning not what is said. The hysteria over this change from a quick image and some words is funny. I hope the testers did their job and see something we do not. Maybe they want condition shatter for pvp, pu is useless in that game mode so the buff to one build to try and bring others up might be a side effect. But what we don’t see, can’t play, doesn’t make much sense to vent over.

Well, if it turns out to be too much, they could maybe just halve the torment-duration of the autoattack and from the clones.

mango.9267:

There seems to be a lot of controversy about the scepter AA buff, so I thought I’d make this thread for people to focus the discussion on just that (and by “discussion”, I mean talk about why it’s a terrible idea).

I like the other buffs, but scepter AA didn’t need torment. I have no idea what Anet’s vision is, but condi mesmer didn’t need a buff. I worry that this does even more to proliferate the “condi meta” and threatens the health of the game.

Please discuss as the OP why you feel scepter was fine and exactly why condition mesmer didn’t need a buff. To simple state without evidence that scepter is fine and condition builds are in a good is not enough evidence to consider those 2 statements truthful and in no need of questioning.

Scepter as weapon is slow. It;s block function creating torment is useful, but only works on a melee strike and proc’s nothing on range. The confusion element of it is weak after the confusion nerf a year ago. It did need improving. It had no upfront damage, and it condition applications were situational and/or underwhelming. To further put scepter at a disadvantage is the fact that traits which aid scepter at master level are found outside of the condition damage tree. Not to mention the condition damage tree is tied to power damage, further complicated by torment on shatter is a grandmaster trait found in a completely different tree again. In order to obtain stream lined synergy one would have to invest 30-20-10-20-30 in order to be able to produce clones, maximise scepter, make use of clone death and cause conditions on shatter. As you can see that build structure is not possible, so already you can create something functional, but not ideal or superior. This opposed to something like warrior where precision and condition damage and in the same tree as duel weilding which applies bleed,torment and cripple faster , and deep cuts which extends bleed time by 50% and increases crit chance on sword which proc’s sigils. Already you can see there is professions that have it much more streamlined.

The current state of conditions builds were much the same as engineer. Debil dissa proc’ed random conditions on clone destruction which made condition application easy, but you had no control over which conditions would be applied. The same issue applies to winds of chaos. The application was random and would often stack vulnerability which aided your cause in no way. Mesmer needed more direct and assured ways of playing out a condition build.

One day..one day we will find out why the community is so hostile to Mesmer being viable.

Granted on that day nobody will care because Mesmer will have been nerfed down to just having sword auto attack on a 5 second cooldown and of course Veil and portal so WvW commanders can say “of course Mesmer is good in WvW you have veil and portal, why wouldn’t you want to log in as it?”

killahmayne.9518:

Torment by itself is already a fairly strong condition. But consider it outside a vacuum for a second.

Easily applicable torment along side easy bleed applications, confusion from scepter #3, perplexity runes, etc. It makes it pretty overbearing and highly pressuring. Plus you have veggie pizza which gives you 40% more condition duration or points into domination and sigils that add condi duration. This adds quite a bit of time to torment.

There is no counterplay to it, besides running away. If you kill the clones, you just inflict bleeds on yourself, if you leave the clones alone they are inflicting bleeds/torment. Plus it isn’t like clone generation is a problem for mesmer.

I never understood how running away is counterplay to a Mesmer. If a warrior, thief or an elementalist is running away from you in WvW, you are preventing them from capping objectives. You are preventing them from engaging you because they know they can’t beat you. Which means if you are defending things like supply camps they can’t cap it from you. Two people might not even be able to cap it. If you are in a small group, you have other people to catch up to stragglers that are running away while you are putting loads of condi pressure on somebody.

I would much rather see buffs to other aspects of the mesmer, such as making them more GvG viable and increase build diversity (i.e, all shatter mesmers more or less go the same build). Possibly better damage on greatsword when less than 1,200 range and better sword auto-attack. Even a rework of the scepter #3 and a more reliable scepter #2. I do agree the auto needed a rework, but I am not sure if this is it.

^This is more of the crux of the concern..how will perplexity affect a torment mesmer in WvW. I feel in spvp scepter will become a hotjoin hero for a short time, but won’’t see the light of day in any higher competitive teams.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

mango.9267:

There seems to be a lot of controversy about the scepter AA buff, so I thought I’d make this thread for people to focus the discussion on just that (and by “discussion”, I mean talk about why it’s a terrible idea).

I like the other buffs, but scepter AA didn’t need torment. I have no idea what Anet’s vision is, but condi mesmer didn’t need a buff. I worry that this does even more to proliferate the “condi meta” and threatens the health of the game.

Please discuss as the OP why you feel scepter was fine and exactly why condition mesmer didn’t need a buff. To simple state without evidence that scepter is fine and condition builds are in a good is not enough evidence to consider those 2 statements truthful and in no need of questioning.

I discuss my reasoning in the posts below. I never said scepter was fine; in fact, I even stated I think scepter could use a buff, but just not like this.

The tl;dr is that torment scepter AA and scepter clones make it so you can permanently torment your opponent, who has no counterplay options and no chance of cleansing it. This buffs condi mesmers, who didn’t need a buff.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Scepter as weapon is slow. It;s block function creating torment is useful, but only works on a melee strike and proc’s nothing on range.

This is wrong. If you block a ranged attack, you still apply torment, even if you’re not in melee range.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

To further put scepter at a disadvantage is the fact that traits which aid scepter at master level are found outside of the condition damage tree. Not to mention the condition damage tree is tied to power damage, further complicated by torment on shatter is a grandmaster trait found in a completely different tree again. In order to obtain stream lined synergy one would have to invest 30-20-10-20-30 in order to be able to produce clones, maximise scepter, make use of clone death and cause conditions on shatter. As you can see that build structure is not possible, so already you can create something functional, but not ideal or superior. This opposed to something like warrior where precision and condition damage and in the same tree as duel weilding which applies bleed,torment and cripple faster , and deep cuts which extends bleed time by 50% and increases crit chance on sword which proc’s sigils. Already you can see there is professions that have it much more streamlined.

I’m not talking about traits, per se. However, PU, debilitating dissipation, and deceptive evasion are all you need to make an insanely OP build with scepter. The other traits are almost irrelevant.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

The current state of conditions builds were much the same as engineer. Debil dissa proc’ed random conditions on clone destruction which made condition application easy, but you had no control over which conditions would be applied. The same issue applies to winds of chaos. The application was random and would often stack vulnerability which aided your cause in no way. Mesmer needed more direct and assured ways of playing out a condition build.

Random proc’s aren’t that unreliable. Condi mesmers still have very reliable sources of condi’s from sharper images, scepter 2, scepter 3, torch 4, torch 5, etc. The new scepter buff just pushes it over the top

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

^This is more of the crux of the concern..how will perplexity affect a torment mesmer in WvW. I feel in spvp scepter will become a hotjoin hero for a short time, but won’’t see the light of day in any higher competitive teams.

The concern isn’t about perplexity at all. Even a condi mesmer not running perplexity would still be very OP with this scepter buff. That said, it would be even worse when combined with all of the already common and strong specs that exist for condi mesmer. Shatter is probably still better for teamplay in pvp, but this scepter buff doesn’t help the condi meta plaguing the roaming scene.

Levetty.1279:

One day..one day we will find out why the community is so hostile to Mesmer being viable.

Granted on that day nobody will care because Mesmer will have been nerfed down to just having sword auto attack on a 5 second cooldown and of course Veil and portal so WvW commanders can say “of course Mesmer is good in WvW you have veil and portal, why wouldn’t you want to log in as it?”

I’m not complaining about any of the other buffs. However, this buffs the wrong mesmer specs in the wrong manner. It has nothing to do with making mesmer viable. The condi builds this improves were already very strong in 1v1 and roaming scenarios, and they didn’t need to be buffed any further.

Helseth made a very good point in his argument.

“The buff to scepter is almost as strong (if not stronger) than the grandmaster trait MtD itself. "

And also as others already pointed it, it promotes passive play and has little counter.

I suggest that we:
- remove the torment in aa skill #2,
- aa skill #1 only inflict 1s of torment,
- and clones will only inflict 1s of torment on crit.

This change is so bullcrap I’m rolling a Mesmer just so I can lol until it’s nerfed.

Torment is a very powerful condition. I’ve mained a Necromancer for nearly a year now and the majority of that time has been spent as a solo roaming condition Necro in WvW. With torment runes and sigil, even with only one way to apply torment, I could manage up to 6stacks of torment on people quite regularly, which did insane amounts of damage. Having torment on the AA with Mesmer, as well as on the #2 skill, and various other ways to access Torment from the looks of the changes, I could see Mesmer’s easily being able to apply up to 15+ stacks of it (assuming +duration foods are used).. And that condition alone, with no others on your target, could probably kill them within seconds. I’m fine with buffing Mesmers even though I absolutely hate fighting them, but this is a little too much.. It might not be very useful in other areas of the game having so much access to Torment, but in WvW it’s going to be extremely difficult to go up against.

So to close, Mesmer buffs: I think the majrotiy are well deserved. Torment on AA, no. No, no, no..

Permanent Torment just from Scepter auto-attack. As if Mesmer needed more condition application.

As if this game needed to be pushed even further into the condi meta.

Why don’t you just give up on the vision already and just give the Guardian a load of conditions as well, sod the lore and let all 8 professions run condition builds, seems that’s all GW2 is destined for.

Torment on the scepter autoattack is lazy and bad design. There are other options that could have made the weapon better without simply tacking on conditions. For example:

What if scepter clones behaved as melee clones? Now you’ve given scepter clones a unique niche for condition builds, because no other condition based weapon has melee clones. With that change, your clones would stick close to your opponents, making it difficult for them to avoid the aoe condition spread from clone deaths. This puts more condition pressure on your opponents without simply adding autoattack spam.

what im worried about is how my ranger is going to deal with this in WvW while kiting clones, even if they are slow generating clones.

how many stacks would you get with Runes of Torment , 40-70% longer torment (if you have 4 or 6 in your condi duration tree)
4-5 average , excluding time warps.
and onther two stacks on Aoe every 20secs that goes really well with the healing skills.

might end up being the same problem as when Perplexity runes came out , just a combat shut down , kite and die , or stay still and get blown up all the while your hp is on constant drain from passive condis.
honestly torment Counters Regen very well , when kiting is involved and all in all it creates a lockdown set up with a limited window.

the Anti toxin heal might be useful, if you are already running a passive heal or regen, would’t that be a Hard counter to the new torment on AA, even -40% duration on food would be good.

as you can tell im a bit Sceptical too on how easy these torment stacks could be maintained if built for them like the old Perplexity builds.

1sec on torment would be useless , it gives you no option for increased duration.

AA 1 could stay the same , AA2 could just add +damage vs moving targets and apply 2sec torment again if moving?

that way you could pressure with clones get them to move increase your torment stacks.
then the target could also just sit still , dodge the clone(shatter or what phantasum is charging them) avoiding most of the Total torment damage.

its more immersive and creates a counter play for the secptor aa chain.
and at the same time makes it easier for the Slow AA to hit because the target is part choosing to stay still?

mango.9267:

Even if you’re underestimating the amount of torment, what you’ve described is already very significant. It’s not just about how many stacks or how long they last, but also the ease of application.

“Ease of application” being that you are using the Scepter AA.

Now, ignore for a moment the actual torment stacks, as those are the net result. Think about what else you’re doing. Scepter AA.

This isn’t Necro scepter, which fires quickly and deals a small amount of direct damage. This isn’t Guardian scepter either which at least fires at the same speed independent of distance from target.

This is Mesmer Scepter AA.

I’m sorry, but how is torment on AA a positive thing? It still means I have to Scepter AA, which means I effectively go AFK, apart from those torment stacks. As I do nothing else the enemy might even notice.
The AA is still so bad for all I care they could add Swiftness, Fury and Stability to it and it’d still be rubbish. You’re, adding Torment to it is a terrible idea. But because the issues are so, so, so much deeper.

It’s a nice little gimmick to have some condi damage on it. Total damage will still be significantly lower than Staff AA simply because Scepter’s AA is so bad outside of that torment.

Carighan.6758:

mango.9267:

Even if you’re underestimating the amount of torment, what you’ve described is already very significant. It’s not just about how many stacks or how long they last, but also the ease of application.

“Ease of application” being that you are using the Scepter AA.

Now, ignore for a moment the actual torment stacks, as those are the net result. Think about what else you’re doing. Scepter AA.

This isn’t Necro scepter, which fires quickly and deals a small amount of direct damage. This isn’t Guardian scepter either which at least fires at the same speed independent of distance from target.

This is Mesmer Scepter AA.

I’m sorry, but how is torment on AA a positive thing? It still means I have to Scepter AA, which means I effectively go AFK, apart from those torment stacks. As I do nothing else the enemy might even notice.
The AA is still so bad for all I care they could add Swiftness, Fury and Stability to it and it’d still be rubbish. You’re, adding Torment to it is a terrible idea. But because the issues are so, so, so much deeper.

It’s a nice little gimmick to have some condi damage on it. Total damage will still be significantly lower than Staff AA simply because Scepter’s AA is so bad outside of that torment.

This point has been addressed numerous times above.

1) You can weave AA’s in between other skills.
2) Your clones also apply torment.
3) Scepter (and the condi builds that use it) already outputs a ton of condi’s.

Putting the first two together means you effectively apply permanent and uncleans-able torment. With scepter clones up, you don’t even have to AA yourself. Just by dodging and sitting in stealth, you’ll still do very good damage. Add this to the already strong condi output on scepter and you get a recipe for disaster.

Funny that everyone is so upset by the scepter buff when it is the staff buff that will cause the most qq once the patch drops. From a numbers standpoint it is really insane and far more deadly than the scepter aa buff. Weird that the top mesmers haven’t complained about it…oh wait, they run staff.

They did not increase velocity for scepter right? Why to worry then? It’s not something like Mesmer scepter auto attack will be direct hit like Necromancer. It’s still lame on PvP anyway because you have to get a hit and its velocity is so slow that players can avoid it in 1 vs 1. Unless you play it with zerg or just PvE. And scepter really needs buff for a long time ago and too bad I change to cavalier before this change.

i just dont see AA torment being that good tbh. Even if clones can also apply it due to the speed of scepter attacks i can only see 3 stacks maintained at most as long as the mesmer is only auto attacking, otherwise propably not even 1 stack. One thing i do agree is that it will cause a lot of uneeded ruckus to the player community atleast until its implemented. A lot of players that dont play mesmer main can make it out something that it isnt and it can look pretty apealling on paper. I wouldnt worry cause if it truly is OP it ll be nerfed a month after implementation at most. Remember the shattered strength buff?

Meh. It’s like I said over in the profession forum:

• My “Scepter Wishlist” was simply speeding up the AA chain and Confusing Images.
• If we “needed” more Condition pressure on Scepter, then why not Confusion? Y’know, the Mesmer “Specialty Condition?”
• And no, I would not have plopped it on the first AA hit.

(Hell, I’d almost think ANet wants a reason to Dumbfire Mesmers. And I don’t tend towards the general Mesmer Stockholm Syndrome.)

I can understand crying over spilled milk. But crying over the milk not even poured is very amusing

Non pu condition mesmer are already strong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PLs0cReY9A when you add pu trait is god mode.

vincecontix.1264:

Non pu condition mesmer are already strong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PLs0cReY9A when you add pu trait is god mode.

Yeah I know, bloody Mesmer-meta everywh… oh.

God mode for a very small niche. Roaming in wvw or by default veil portal duty. We have no solid options for aoe tagging so by surviving we are tagging = bagging. Pu does not have a place in pvp. So because mesmers roam with pu this is a problem. The problem is also any other roamer then.

Carighan.6758:

vincecontix.1264:

Non pu condition mesmer are already strong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PLs0cReY9A when you add pu trait is god mode.

Yeah I know, bloody Mesmer-meta everywh... oh.

With the current effort required to play pu conditon memser it should not become meta in spvp its even more face roll that warrior and there are lots of mesmers about in wvw.

The AA itself is fine and, knowing how slow the Mesmer AA cast and projectile speed is, I don’t think there’s much to worry about with this. It would have been nice to have something more interesting instead of just creating another condi AA, but I don’t think I will find an auto-attacking scepter Mesmer particularly threatening.

The clone applying torment though…..still unsure about this. On my condi build I can’t see myself bothering with scepter clones as staff clones will still be superior for both dps and utility (even without taking the fixed IE). However, it will mean that there’s generally going to be extra pressure when I don’t have my duellists/staff clones available, which my build didn’t really need.

Oh well, at least it’s single target :S

In sPvP torment on scepter/Sclones won’t be a problem, and all the fear mongering is laughable. There will never be a situation where a Mesmer can safely and reliably spam his AA and scepter clones to any true effect. This is not PvE. Your enemies will not simply stand by idly and tank what you have to throw at them. You’re dreaming if you think you can get away with this for any length of time.

Where I see torment on AA shining is for the mesmer giving chase, but only for one built to maintain the chase which rules out classic condi PU mesmers. If an enemy chooses to flee a mesmer with a scepter, traited blink, and with swiftness could keep pace with someone fleeing, AA to apply torment for pressure, and the clone spawning on target can add additional stacks by getting at least one attack off before the target further runs out of range.

And keep in mind that things like straifing, jumping, and slight variations in terrain height will throw a scepter bolt right off course. Truly, the counter to a mesmer who thinks he can get away with spamming 3 scepter clones is to run around in circles jumping. GG.

I’m not sure if torment on scepter will be too powerful alone or not .But the thing is you cant really give players a viable condition build that is also skillful. The key of balance is how much you reward those low risk build .Right now , pu condition build is low risk /low reward in tpvp.
Adding torment on scepter has chance to make pu condition build highly rewarding also with IE fix on staff clone .
What anet could do are nerf to pu trait ,change the idea that gives scepter torment or make it impossible to use both advantages in a single build .
We cant really only discuss that single change alone.

The buff to IE is enough. Buffing scepter aa puts it over the top. I’m sick of seeing all of these passive builds being overbuffed and then we’re stuck with it for months on end. They need to learn from their previous mistakes and take it in steps. Buff IE, wait and see, then if need buff scepter aa.

I am amazed on how pu even enters pvp. The use of any stealth decaps the node. A pu mes is worthless in that game mode hence the previous posts yet you still believe pu mesmer is a pvp build. It only functions in wvw allowing the mesmer to veil his/ her zerg, solo roam.

I don’t think Scepter AA will be an effective chase weapon at all, maybe I misunderstood that, but the projectile is simply too slow for this to be an issue. Anyone running away will easily outrun all AAs from both the Mes and his clones.

And since so many people are worried about the Clones AA spamming Torment, again I’m wondering if you’ve played Condie Staff Mes??? With 3 staff clones you maintain near 100% burn uptime, no way to clear that either, plus lots of bleeds on top.

Torment is only a good damage condition if TWO factors come together:
1) You’ve got 5+ stacks of Torment on the target
2) Target is moving

So the only way the Mesmer can make his Torment an effective damaging attack is by:

1) applying the 5 stacks from the #2 skill, which is not really within his control to land (very hard to land the larger the fight gets)
2) summing 3 staff clones to maintain 4-6 stacks or so provided your opponent doesn’t kite, no one kills the clones, etc.
3) shattering with Maim the Disillusioned along with some AAs.

Outside of #3, everything we’re talking about here is SINGLE target, and #2 is still very SLOW application of Torment stacks.

I just really fail to see the issue with this. I agree with someone above you said that what will really make people QQ in their Wheeties is Ill. Elasticity on Staff clones. Now we’re talking not just a single target attack, but applying constant burn + bleed to multiple targets. Burn is far more reliable high power condition damage then Torment, with no real counter play aside from cleansing, which will be pointless.

Even without Ill. Elasticity, I don’t see the Scepter clones outperforming the Staff ones, and with EI I really don’t see a case where I would ever prefer to have more then maybe 1 Scepter Clone up over a Staff clone instead, just to get Torment into the mix.

Staff clones have longer attack range, bounces, more reliable condie damage, buffs if I’m close, etc… They just hugely outclasses Scepter Clones still IMO. The same goes for the rest of the weapon too, the #2 skill is only useful in 1v1 and even then is unreliable and easy to counter, and #3 is still too slow, too telegraphed and thus easily avoidable and to add insult to injury, the condition it applies is weak and unreliable.

People will be using Scepter mainly because they’re playing a Condie build already, built around Staff, and thus there really is no other option for a secondary weapon.

As long as Scepter remains a single target focused weapon, it’s simply not going to OPd in any way, shape, or fashion! All of this fear mongering is laughable IMHO, just as Ross said.

Windwalker.7421:

I just really fail to see the issue with this. I agree with someone above you said that what will really make people QQ in their Wheeties is Ill. Elasticity on Staff clones. Now we’re talking not just a single target attack, but applying constant burn + bleed to multiple targets. Burn is far more reliable high power condition damage then Torment, with no real counter play aside from cleansing, which will be pointless.

Even without Ill. Elasticity, I don’t see the Scepter clones outperforming the Staff ones, and with EI I really don’t see a case where I would ever prefer to have more then maybe 1 Scepter Clone up over a Staff clone instead, just to get Torment into the mix.

I’ve addressed this argument the first time you made it. However, to repeat:

Yes, if we’re comparing scepter clones to staff clones, then staff clones are better.

However, we’re not doing that. We’re comparing the total condi output from scepter/x to the total condi output from staff. The only sources of condi on staff are clones/AA and (briefly) chaos storm. Scepter, on the other hand, gives you a potential 5 stacks of torment on low cd, 5 stacks of confusion, and (depending on whether you take pistol or torch) 4-6 bleeds or a burn. By adding torment on scepter AA and torment on scepter clones, we’re pushing the total condi output of scepter/x over the top.

Before, when you replaced staff clones with scepter clones, you saw a decent dps drop. After the patch, when you replace staff clones with scepter clones, the dps loss (if any) will be marginal. Instead, you’ll maintain constant condi pressure from scepter clones, on top of the already strong condi pressure from the rest of the skills on scepter/x.

To repeat, no one is disputing that staff clones are better at outputting condi’s. However, we’re talking about the entire staff set vs. the entire scepter/x set, and the builds that use scepter/x already have strong condi output. Buffing scepter just pushes it over the top.

Note also that many condi builds run both scepter and staff. Those are the last builds that need buffing.