Guild Wars 2

Prior to 23/6 patch, the Scepter was actually a pretty good power weapon, despite being an apparent condition weapon.
The change to it in the patch hampared its ability in power builds, now its just kinda floating in the middle, not being great for either.

The Torch, was and still is for the most part, entirely useless in power builds, despite being a power weapon, and for condition builds, well…

The Torch is just mostly useless in general.

So I propose the following:
Make the Scepter a power weapon, revert the changes to Illusionary Counter , put the trait in the Domination line, up the damage on Confusing Images a little and speed up the cast time, remove the confusion and then rename it to something else. poopbutt. Whatever.

That Torment and Confusion? Well that moves on over to the Torch, The Prestige can be an AoE confusion bomb and the Phantasm can stack Torment.

This would still leave Mesmers without a mainhand condition weapon, but lets face it, they don’t really have one now.

The Torch trait could more or less still work as is, but the Scepter one would need some changing, to what I don’t currently know.

Thoughts?

I actually like the sceptre and torch as they are now, they really synergise with my build and play style,

However, I wouldn’t mind at all if they lowered the windup for sceptre 3, its too long and then if you are not facing your target it does nothing and ends up wasting time and a cooldown.

I run Scepter/Focus+Staff on my Mes in Tpvp, while I do like the playstyle you are still better off opening up with a confusion bomb and then just spamming staff clones for the rest of the fight.
If they actually stacked a condition reliably they would genuinely be useful, but as it is having them out drops your condi pressure and even as shredding fodder, the staff is a better option.

I get around 4800 damage with torch and also put 10s blindness on enemies.

Scepter is for me the #2 #3 skills, with #2 providing on block 7k torment damage, 7k torment damage to moving targets and #3 hitting for like 1200 damage and landing 5 stacks of confusion for almost 12 seconds with 928 damage on skill use.

These are really good. Not good for power like you say but they are now more like condition build weapons. Whereas sword, focus, gs, pistol are power weapons. Staff is somewhere in the middle, perhaps faring better for condi builds. But as you see there are 4 weapons that provide good dps while only 3 weapons providing good condition damage (including staff).

My mentions to the Scepter as a power weapon were before the patch, at the time it was actually quite commendable as a power weapon, confusing images had pretty good base damage, even now its still serviceable, just rather sub par.

At no point did I say the Torch was a good power weapon, but given that it’s trait is a Master tier Domination trait, that would make it a “power” weapon per say, despite being for all intents and purposes a condition weapon.

The burning is nice, nothing more, with rabid gear and at least 15 into dueling, both the focus and the pistol become better condition offhands because of how well the phantasms can stack bleed. I’m not suggesting removing the burning or blind from the prestige, I’m suggesting buffing the everloving hell out of it by throwing on all the confusion from confusing images and making the Phantasm actually achieve something.

For you Domination might mean the power tree but has it crossed your mind that for a condition based mesmer its also the condition duration tree and that the 20 points spent on the torch trait also brings with it 20% condition duration, which is the real reason that weapon trait is positioned where it is.

This is true yes, but the Torch is still arguably the second worst choice of offhand in a condition build. Stealth is useful yes, but that’s all it really has going for it and even then, the animation kinda gives you away.

Well then we’ll just put that down to a matter of opinion.

Well it is, hence the usage of the word arguably.
Don’t get me wrong, this thread has been filled with some pretty valid and intelligent posts thusfar, and hopefully I’m not coming across as a condescending meow.

I find it good in some situations, but the damage mitigation the prestige can offer can be achieved with both the pistol and the focus on lower cooldown’s with the added utility of being cc.

Did I just read that scepter is not a condi weapon? Um, it’s the quintessential condi weapon since the patch.

If anything the scepter is now one of the most condi specific weapons in the game.

Scepter is still problematic but I wouldn’t say it “floats in the middle” of condi and power. It is most positively a condi weapon now. With 1800 condi the torment rocks people.

Torch is not a power weapon. The placement of its trait means nothing in this regard. Unfortunately, it’s also not a ConD weapon. It is a utility weapon with only 1 skill. The Mage needs to be completely reworked.

Scepter used to be a very bad power weapon and a very bad ConD weapon. Now it’s a very very bad power weapon and an ok ConD weapon, but that’s ONLY due to the block. The auto attack is still worthless and CI is still very bad.

Imo torch needs fixes to both skills, to work good in both a pow/crit build and in a con dmg build.
Some easy fixes would be Scalling the dmg on activate on skill4 (the prestige) same as the Sword skill4 does. That would make skill 4 both viable in pow and con dmg build, since the burn is ok atm.

Me personally would love seing Torch work well, as pistol/focus/offhandsword does in powerbuilds. Would also suit the placement of the CD trait on torch.

Image needs a complete rework, Dmg is way to low, conditions gained and applied are way to weak, the projectile is to slow, this list can go on forever.
Make its dmg scale in a pow build like IWarlock, change conditions from confusion to bleeds or burn/poison to scale well in a con dng build. Problems fixed.

I am easily satisfied with the two weapons as they are now.

Torch gets kitten on all the time,
But The Prestige is an insanely useful skill that gets overlooked just because the phantasm is subpar (Shatter fodder for me anyway.). Target drops (stealth) are invaluable to a profession who gets locked onto so people can keep track of the real mesmer easiest.

Scepter is a little underrated too.
Confusing Images, for example, might be a really kittenty way to either deal damage or inflict confusion, but it is a fantastic way to make the person you target waste both of their dodges. I’ve never fought anyone that just sat there and ate confusing images instead of blowing their endurance so I could burst them to my full potential.

I also felt that scepter is pretty weak after this update.

I’m power build and used to hit 800 – 1200 without critical as normal damage in skill #1. After the update my normal damage is now 180 – 400 and critical hits are around 500 – 800.

The ones that really use scepter in their builds as a main weapon can now notice how Anet made it an unbalanced weapon, so much weaker than it was.

it’s not either good for power, nor to condition the way it is.

Torch is a defensive offhand that is actually quite good with power or condi builds. The one thing that really needs changing on torch imo is the phantasm.

Instead of confusion/ret, just make the image cast a simple fireball type spell that hits for moderate damage and has a short burn. Maybe have it bounce for fireshield or ret or something, but really, if image just did decent (not huge) damage torch would be perfect.

I’m adapting to scepter. It still feels clunky and I don’t like the channeled beam for confusion images especially.

NO…………..!

I am a Condition spec, The Scepter and Torch combo rocks. I feel Scepter #1 attack 3 (the clone spawn) could be a little faster but works they work well together imo

The Phantom i think is great if you are a Confusion spammer, though feel it still isnt quite perfect, that said a few of them plus Scepter #3 is SICK Confusion stacks, i have gotten it up to 11 stacks so far. 5stacks does 1,700 damage on skill use, would be interesting to see just how much 11+ stacks would do.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I am a Condition spec, The Scepter and Torch combo rocks. I feel Scepter #1 attack 3 (the clone spawn) could be a little faster but works they work well together imo

The Phantom i think is great if you are a Confusion spammer, though feel it still isnt quite perfect, that said a few of them plus Scepter #3 is SICK Confusion stacks, i have gotten it up to 11 stacks so far. 5stacks does 1,700 damage on skill use, would be interesting to see just how much 11+ stacks would do.

If anyone lets you get more than 1 mage out during a fight, they are very very bad.

Pyroatheist.9031:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I am a Condition spec, The Scepter and Torch combo rocks. I feel Scepter #1 attack 3 (the clone spawn) could be a little faster but works they work well together imo

The Phantom i think is great if you are a Confusion spammer, though feel it still isnt quite perfect, that said a few of them plus Scepter #3 is SICK Confusion stacks, i have gotten it up to 11 stacks so far. 5stacks does 1,700 damage on skill use, would be interesting to see just how much 11+ stacks would do.

If anyone lets you get more than 1 mage out during a fight, they are very very bad.

Bad isnt the word, but its happened once or twice. Though not very often. Its on quite a big cool down for it to be really possible to get 2-3 out unless you are left free to run wild where they are attacking others.

The Most i have had out is 2 and that was for like 2-3seconds before the first one i summed died so couldnt really see just how many stacks i could get

Torch would be used a lot more if the phantasm associated with it was not complete and utter garbage.

Scepter has a lot of issues with it. From a PvP perspective, long channel skills tend to be pretty terrible overall. It’s just so easy for the enemy to run out of range, run behind you, out of LoS, interrupt you, etc. The auto-attack is pretty terrible, and torment on the block skill seems misplaced. If I were ANet I would completely revamp the weapon and:

1) Make the scepter auto-attack hit instantly, similar to Necro’s scepter auto-attack.
2) Make the scepter 2 skill apply confusion instead of torment on a successful block, and make the secondary activated skill a blind + confusion and also instant cast so it can be used as a clutch blind to a critical skill.
3) Make the scepter 3 not require you to be facing the target after you start channeling (similar to Necro Dagger 2 channel), add a bit of leeway so the channel doesn’t instantly break once they get out of 600 range, make it apply torment instead of confusion, and make the torment pulse 5x torment for 1s so it refreshes torment each pulse. This will frontload the torment damage and make it punishing for players to move while it is targeting them and make it an interesting ability on both sides of the equation.

the only fix both of these need is longer duration on confusion. Confusion as it is now is nearly useless…run up against someone with melandru runes -even with +duration food/gear, and you may as well just breath on them. Against others, its a difficult setup for maybe 1-2k damage. If confusion durations were doubled for both of these weapons they would really go a long way towards making confusion based builds a viable option. It already does damage that is on par with bleeding (unless someone is spamming skills)…so why not make confusion last like bleeding does…or at least better than stuns/fear does?

I normally don’t like comparing classes, but considering necros have such great access to fear, and can do great damage with it, while also providing a hard CC, I think it’s fair. Confusion is meant to be a soft dillemma / CC condition, but as it stands, it’s not…it’s just a little bit of bonus damage, and a condition that the opponent mostly ignores. It doesn’t even really register unless they have like 20+ stacks, and as a mesmer that is tough to accomplish (post blinding beffudlement nerf). Making the duration decent means that the opponent would be forced to recognize when confusion was being applied and adjust accordingly (start cleansing/running away). I don’t mind if it takes a while to get to a dangerous level of it, or if it just winds up being something that you keep on at moderate levels to maintain pressure throughout a fight. I also don’t think it’s a problem to slowly buff individual confusion skill durations – like the torch phantasm – just buff his duration, so the easy counterplay is destroy him early…which is easy. It’s not like it would all of a sudden be powerful enough that everyone would be playing it, it’d just be strong enough to form a foundation for a condition/pressure build.

bobross.5034:

the only fix both of these need is longer duration on confusion. Confusion as it is now is nearly useless…run up against someone with melandru runes -even with +duration food/gear, and you may as well just breath on them. Against others, its a difficult setup for maybe 1-2k damage. If confusion durations were doubled for both of these weapons they would really go a long way towards making confusion based builds a viable option. It already does damage that is on par with bleeding (unless someone is spamming skills)…so why not make confusion last like bleeding does…or at least better than stuns/fear does?

I normally don’t like comparing classes, but considering necros have such great access to fear, and can do great damage with it, while also providing a hard CC, I think it’s fair. Confusion is meant to be a soft dillemma / CC condition, but as it stands, it’s not…it’s just a little bit of bonus damage, and a condition that the opponent mostly ignores. It doesn’t even really register unless they have like 20+ stacks, and as a mesmer that is tough to accomplish (post blinding beffudlement nerf). Making the duration decent means that the opponent would be forced to recognize when confusion was being applied and adjust accordingly (start cleansing/running away). I don’t mind if it takes a while to get to a dangerous level of it, or if it just winds up being something that you keep on at moderate levels to maintain pressure throughout a fight. I also don’t think it’s a problem to slowly buff individual confusion skill durations – like the torch phantasm – just buff his duration, so the easy counterplay is destroy him early…which is easy. It’s not like it would all of a sudden be powerful enough that everyone would be playing it, it’d just be strong enough to form a foundation for a condition/pressure build.

Confusion caps at 10 seconds duration. Scepter 3 can easily be made to achieve this. iMage, with 100% condition duration, can land 6 seconds of confusion. He attacks every 6 seconds (or there abouts), thus an iMage can keep 3 stacks on a target with 100% uptime.

Can it be buffed? Yeah why not. Whatever. But built right, I’d argue mesmer is the strongest condition class in the game (now, with torment).

Just thought of something, I would like a MH Pistol to replace the MH Scepter.
(and largely keep the moves, just with different animations and some slightly changes for sanity)

The reason is that right now, 4 classes use a MH Scepter (Guardian, Elementalist, Necro, Mesmer), but only 2 use a MH Pistol (Engineer, Thief). Moving us over gives us 3 each, which is a more balanced setup.
And since we’d be keeping the skills, we’re really only changing the graphics + some trait balance.

No. CND mesmers are in a goodish place for once. Sure, it’s not pre nerf glamour cheese, but I’m finding my small scale CND spec to be incredibly fun. You power users have so many options for power based weapons, it boggles my mind.

I mentioned I do run condition builds, I’m not saying to just remove the condi the scepter has and throw it away.
Torment on one skill doesn’t fix the problems the scepter has, especially on a block since most good players will know that block is a big PRESS DODGE NOW sign.

Hell, confusing images still does more damage in a power build than what it does with condition builds and even with the block damage halved, the scepter is still more effective in a power build in its current state.

Meanwhile, you have the torch, a weapon that barely anybody uses because what it offers in most builds, can be done with other offhands with better utility and lower cooldowns, PU works with it well and all, but even then, the torch still doesn’t offer much that you cant get elsewhere.

My general reasoning was to give the torch something, and AoE confusion and torment sounds pretty scary to me.
As far as mainhands go, Scepter needs a rework or there needs to be an entirely new condition based mainhand, because right now, even with torment its just not up to scratch.

Ross Biddle.2367:

But built right, I’d argue mesmer is the strongest condition class in the game (now, with torment).

Really!?
Necro Condition builds are STILL and i think will always be stronger, to many utilities that benefit from it, a healing ability that benefits from it, DS if you get spiked, Several fear options as well as an AoE Torment

So no, Mesmers arent the strongest Condition class in the game. I play both Mesmer and Necro Condition classes, While Mesmer is strong in small fights the Necro is just as good in them with better utilities and DS and destroys it in Zerg fights – Corrupt Boon on Guardian and Epidemic = so fun

clipnotdone.9634:

I mentioned I do run condition builds, I’m not saying to just remove the condi the scepter has and throw it away.
Torment on one skill doesn’t fix the problems the scepter has, especially on a block since most good players will know that block is a big PRESS DODGE NOW sign.

Hell, confusing images still does more damage in a power build than what it does with condition builds and even with the block damage halved, the scepter is still more effective in a power build in its current state.

Meanwhile, you have the torch, a weapon that barely anybody uses because what it offers in most builds, can be done with other offhands with better utility and lower cooldowns, PU works with it well and all, but even then, the torch still doesn’t offer much that you cant get elsewhere.

My general reasoning was to give the torch something, and AoE confusion and torment sounds pretty scary to me.
As far as mainhands go, Scepter needs a rework or there needs to be an entirely new condition based mainhand, because right now, even with torment its just not up to scratch.

I have to disagree with you. Power weapons are the sword/pistol/GS/focus. We do not need to add scepter to that list.

I am running a build like this.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNArfWlwzKqHSTmGbNJipHBHyBcoFQqQpVmxsdhA-T0AAzCoIMSZkzIjRSjsGNEZJyRk5CPRA

Between weapon swaps you can get some decent might stacks up. PU helps a lot in surviving while fighting because of the buffs. Torch is meant as a condition weapon due to the burn from stealth and the confusion from iMage. I have gotten upto 10-11 stacks confusion on a thief once using iMage + scepter 3 + dodge + f2. He was eating 1700 confusion damage (he took 2-3 ticks before it ran out lol).

The torment on block is insanely powerful with 1000+ condition damage. I have seen a mesmer at 40% kill himself with just this. So what if its on a block? It is not ideal but with the fast paced combat and spamfest of keys for most classes, it is easy to land a good block on classes without illusions/minions (you can land even those with practice).

Scepter auto replaces clones on the target so each 3rd attack will blow a clone adding a random condition + cripple + confusion. Also, classes that like to AOE your clones will get some real pain :-)

clipnotdone.9634:

My general reasoning was to give the torch something, and AoE confusion and torment sounds pretty scary to me.
As far as mainhands go, Scepter needs a rework or there needs to be an entirely new condition based mainhand, because right now, even with torment its just not up to scratch.

Though i agree the weapons could do with slight tweaks, As a condition build i dont want to see the combo ruined for those of us that run that combo.

Scepter #1 – Speed it up a bit, make the damage instant and make the clone spawning clone have a 50% less cast time. If they REALLY wanted this to be a condition build it could give a Random condition on the 3rd hit as well

Scepter #2 – It should Be slightly changed. Maybe make it so that during its duration you have Retal up and if you are hit during it then you get Retail refreshed and the target is inflicted with Confusion and Vul or something.

Scepter #3 – Change it from Confusion to Torment, start at 5 stacks and every time it pulses it is refreshed. This would give us a more reliable access to Torment without having to be hit in a specific 2second window or the cool down is wasted.

Torch #4 – It works okay, it could be buffed a little bit, Maybe have it that when you reappear the Conditions could be a little bit better and the damage improved

Torch #5 – I cant really stand Confusion i think buffing it up damage wise and giving it Cripple and Torment. Say 3 seconds of Cripple and 3 Stacks of Torment would be very welcome

Of course the problem is, buffing weapons for 2 different types of builds is VERY hard, some people use them in Condition builds (like me) and others in Power builds so i cant really see any changes happening unless Anet come out and say “Scepter and Torch are condition weapons, thus we will nerf the damage potential and buffing the condition potential” sort of thing.

Scepter isn’t exactly what I want, but I currently like it as my best option for main-hand power weapon that can be used from range. Of course, it’s the only main-hand weapon that has all of its skills work from range…

The auto-attack is frustratingly slow when you’re at 900 range, but it does continue to do damage and will spawn a clone eventually.

I actually like the block. It works both if someone gets close and if someone is at range. For sure, it’s tricky if you’re getting attacked by many people. As a power build, the torment damage isn’t that high (about 1400 for non-moving and another 1400 for moving). But the torment seems like one more thing I can use to make my opponent’s life more complicated.

And that’s really the benefit of the confusion on attack #3 for me as well – giving the opponent another thing to think about. The damage on attack #3 is okay – it’s quite nice if you can hit multiple targets with it.

Generally, when I switch to my scepter/pistol set, I’m looking for most of the benefit to come from pistol. The scepter skills are harder to use, but I’m actually liking it better than using sword. I’m sure I’m in the minority on this point Whatever happens with scepter, I hope it at least stays as viable as it currently is as a ranged, main-hand, power damage weapon.

eldenbri.1059:

Scepter isn’t exactly what I want, but I currently like it as my best option for main-hand power weapon that can be used from range. Of course, it’s the only main-hand weapon that has all of its skills work from range…

The auto-attack is frustratingly slow when you’re at 900 range, but it does continue to do damage and will spawn a clone eventually.

I actually like the block. It works both if someone gets close and if someone is at range. For sure, it’s tricky if you’re getting attacked by many people. As a power build, the torment damage isn’t that high (about 1400 for non-moving and another 1400 for moving). But the torment seems like one more thing I can use to make my opponent’s life more complicated.

And that’s really the benefit of the confusion on attack #3 for me as well – giving the opponent another thing to think about. The damage on attack #3 is okay – it’s quite nice if you can hit multiple targets with it.

Generally, when I switch to my scepter/pistol set, I’m looking for most of the benefit to come from pistol. The scepter skills are harder to use, but I’m actually liking it better than using sword. I’m sure I’m in the minority on this point Whatever happens with scepter, I hope it at least stays as viable as it currently is as a ranged, main-hand, power damage weapon.

The issue is (excluding the 3rd skill) scepter has horrible damage power wise.
Since the block damage was nerfed when torment was added, I see this less and less as a good power weapon. Your power options are still there in GS, Staff (it is decent for power if running shatter), Pistol, Focus and Sword. The reason people go sword/pistol is because they just work so well together. Pistol 4-5 then Sword 3-3-dodge-2-f1.

Voila, you just chopped off 40% of your opponents hp and he cannot do anything unless he is very quick at cleansing that immob (which is protected by your bleeds and cripple).