Guild Wars 2

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Perma-stealth-thief-vs-PU-mesmer/first#post5447142

I just found out there are perma stealth trapper thieves.

If you think PU mesmer stealth is terrible, think again.

PU stealth mesmers are fine. We still appear once every few moments.

What needs a nerf if anything, is a perma stealth trapper thief that loads you with condi and never exits stealth.

EremiteAngel.9765:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Perma-stealth-thief-vs-PU-mesmer/first#post5447142

I just found out there are perma stealth trapper thieves.

If you think PU mesmer stealth is terrible, think again.

PU stealth mesmers are fine. We still appear once every few moments.

What needs a nerf if anything, is a perma stealth trapper thief that loads you with condi and never exits stealth.

Hey, it’s the old troll PU clone-death build reborn!
Except that build was never actually able to perma-stealth…

Its only OP if Mesmer can do it.

Thiefs can’t do it and it’s useless, you have to be dumb to lose vs this kind of thief.

You compare stealth vs Stealth+DMG+Condition+SUSTAIN+Your Doritos, how is that fair comparison ?

Gorisek.2678:

Thiefs can’t do it and it’s useless, you have to be dumb to lose vs this kind of thief.

You compare stealth vs Stealth+DMG+Condition+SUSTAIN+Your Doritos, how is that fair comparison ?

My, that is one confusing post.
You first say they can’t, but…apparently they can?
You then say it’s useless, but…is it? Also, if “it’s useless”, doesn’t that imply that it’s doable?
I mean, to lose to “this kind of thief” you have to be more than just dumb, you have to be able to run into “this kind of thief” in the first place, so… Thieves CAN do it?

And your last sentence just doesn’t seem to make much sense. He’s not comparing just stealth to a thief build, he’s comparing a thief build to a well-known set of mesmer builds, and suggesting that the ability of this thief build to kill you while perma-stealthed puts PU to shame. What’s unfair about it?

AlphatheWhite.9351:

What’s unfair about it?

You’re using advanced arguing techniques such as simple logic and the capability for rational thought. That’s a rather unfair advantage when having a discussion with someone like that.

Fay.2357:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

What’s unfair about it?

You’re using advanced arguing techniques such as simple logic and the capability for rational thought. That’s a rather unfair advantage when having a discussion with someone like that.

xD God Pyro, its like.. I always wanna rebuke you, even when I agree.
But you’re like the Domination to my Inspiration. Better when working together.

But the guy was saying that a thief only has stealth and damage. A mes has stealth, damage, condition damage, survivability AND free Doritos.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Fay.2357:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

What’s unfair about it?

You’re using advanced arguing techniques such as simple logic and the capability for rational thought. That’s a rather unfair advantage when having a discussion with someone like that.

xD God Pyro, its like.. I always wanna rebuke you, even when I agree.
But you’re like the Domination to my Inspiration. Better when working together.

But the guy was saying that a thief only has stealth and damage. A mes has stealth, damage, condition damage, survivability AND free Doritos.

You forgot the extra 2 trait lines Mesmer gets as standart over all other classes with permenant cheese layered on top of said doritos.

On topic, I do like how the thieves defend the build saying only idiots get killed by it, that it’s unviable, easily countered and useless. I’ve met one or two of these guys in WvW, very annoying as they can kill dollies and you’ll never stop them.

started seeing this in the past few weeks.

different than clone death because they can’t make you stand in their dodge-caltrops and there is no one stacking conditions on you from stealth (ambush trap is more of a cc concern). they have to come out to sneak-attack-headshot-perplexity you. access to cover conditions is very limited. is it still cheesy that they can permastealth and avoid any fight they choose, or passively kill yaks / camps without fear for safety? of course.

with clone death, if you didnt kill the clones the phantasms would keep stacking condis on you while the mesmer is stealthed, and they would always be available to shatter. you were kitten ed if you do and kitten ed if you dont.

mesmer and thieves are not the same class. what is op for one, is not necessarily op for the other.

Raven.9603:

started seeing this in the past few weeks.

different than clone death because they can’t make you stand in their dodge-caltrops and there is no one stacking conditions on you from stealth (ambush trap is more of a cc concern). they have to come out to sneak-attack-headshot-perplexity you. access to cover conditions is very limited. is it still cheesy that they can permastealth and avoid any fight they choose, or passively kill yaks / camps without fear for safety? of course.

with clone death, if you didnt kill the clones the phantasms would keep stacking condis on you while the mesmer is stealthed, and they would always be available to shatter. you were kitten ed if you do and kitten ed if you dont.

mesmer and thieves are not the same class. what is op for one, is not necessarily op for the other.

A thief can dodge on top of you in stealth laying caltrops on you, which does no damage so doesn’t reveal them, so yes, they can stack conditions on you from stealth.

The thief has WAY more cover conditions now, steal alone can give 2 conditions, needle trap has 5 in the original build even in the other linked build.

Perplexity….er thief isn’t using perplexity, they’re using trapper, starting to think you’re not looking at the links and talking about old builds.

I appreciate you’re and others are making comparisons to the old PU clone death build but that is long dead now. One thing a lot of people are also missing. A thief still has superior mobility in this build, the old (and current) Mesmer you could walk away from most of the time and get away unless they ran traveler.

apharma.3741:

Raven.9603:

started seeing this in the past few weeks.

different than clone death because they can’t make you stand in their dodge-caltrops and there is no one stacking conditions on you from stealth (ambush trap is more of a cc concern). they have to come out to sneak-attack-headshot-perplexity you. access to cover conditions is very limited. is it still cheesy that they can permastealth and avoid any fight they choose, or passively kill yaks / camps without fear for safety? of course.

with clone death, if you didnt kill the clones the phantasms would keep stacking condis on you while the mesmer is stealthed, and they would always be available to shatter. you were kitten ed if you do and kitten ed if you dont.

mesmer and thieves are not the same class. what is op for one, is not necessarily op for the other.

A thief can dodge on top of you in stealth laying caltrops on you, which does no damage so doesn’t reveal them, so yes, they can stack conditions on you from stealth.

The thief has WAY more cover conditions now, steal alone can give 2 conditions, needle trap has 5 in the original build even in the other linked build.

Perplexity….er thief isn’t using perplexity, they’re using trapper, starting to think you’re not looking at the links and talking about old builds.

I appreciate you’re and others are making comparisons to the old PU clone death build but that is long dead now. One thing a lot of people are also missing. A thief still has superior mobility in this build, the old (and current) Mesmer you could walk away from most of the time and get away unless they ran traveler.

you’re right, i am blurring the lines a bit. i have run in to more condi thieves in the past two weeks than in the previous month total, some are traps and using those runes, others are not and are using deception / poisons. i think its probably some frustration about being pigeonholed into d/p and looking harder for other viable roaming specs, but triggering traps not breaking them from stealth is pretty lame.

ranger traps break stealth because of their direct damage component, but the combination of the short arming time and the grace period provided by the runes makes them still a strong choice. perhaps the addition of a direct damage component to the thief traps would move them to the viable but not perma stealthed category.

A few words about this “OP” build (compared to the PU condi roamer):

Pro:

• Perma stealth
  If you do it right your enemy will never see you while taking damage. There’s an easy counter though which I’ll mention later. The PU build is not even close to the stealth uptime of this build.
• Very tanky + good sustain (stealth + dire gear + SA traits)
  There’s no way to kill a decent trap thief unless you reveal them. The dire gear combined with stealth and SA traits make it really easy to stay alive. It’s pretty similar to the PU condi mesmer. You have more stealth uptime but less boons.
• Decent mobility
  Very mobile compared to the PU build. I don’t think I need to explain this.

Con:

• Low damage
  Keep in mind there’s no burning, torment and very limited access to confusion. The only way to die to this build is by standing in the caltrops for the entire duration and not cleanse the bleeding stacks. Just using your “W” key + condi cleanse from time to time is enough to counter the damage output. Besides that the damaging skills have very high CDs (24 / 30 secs). This is probably the biggest problem with the trap thief. Unless your opponent is afk or doesn’t realize what’s happening there’s no way to kill him meaning you could kill them with any other thief build.

• Revealed
  Another good counter is revealed. The easiest way to get the thief out of stealth is by standing in their black powder. They need to HS through it to get perma stealth which means they’ll hit you and won’t be able to stealth again for 3 secs. This is sometimes enough to kill them but they usually just Infiltrator’s Arrow away.

To sum it up:
They won’t kill you and you won’t kill them unless either one is bad at roaming. It’s lame to have perma stealth while dealing damage but the damage output is so low it won’t be a threat to players with a “W” key and/or condi cleanse. Besides that there’s an easy way to reveal them. The trap thief is similar to the PU condi mesmer. You have more stealth but less damage.

Blackhat.4016:

A few words about this “OP” build (compared to the PU condi roamer):

Pro:

• Perma stealth
  If you do it right your enemy will never see you while taking damage. There’s an easy counter though which I’ll mention later. The PU build is not even close to the stealth uptime of this build.
• Very tanky + good sustain (stealth + dire gear + SA traits)
  There’s no way to kill a decent trap thief unless you reveal them. The dire gear combined with stealth and SA traits make it really easy to stay alive. It’s pretty similar to the PU condi mesmer. You have more stealth uptime but less boons.
• Decent mobility
  Very mobile compared to the PU build. I don’t think I need to explain this.

Con:

• Low damage
  Keep in mind there’s no burning, torment and very limited access to confusion. The only way to die to this build is by standing in the caltrops for the entire duration and not cleanse the bleeding stacks. Just using your “W” key + condi cleanse from time to time is enough to counter the damage output. Besides that the damaging skills have very high CDs (24 / 30 secs). This is probably the biggest problem with the trap thief. Unless your opponent is afk or doesn’t realize what’s happening there’s no way to kill him meaning you could kill them with any other thief build.

• Revealed
  Another good counter is revealed. The easiest way to get the thief out of stealth is by standing in their black powder. They need to HS through it to get perma stealth which means they’ll hit you and won’t be able to stealth again for 3 secs. This is sometimes enough to kill them but they usually just Infiltrator’s Arrow away.

To sum it up:
They won’t kill you and you won’t kill them unless either one is bad at roaming. It’s lame to have perma stealth while dealing damage but the damage output is so low it won’t be a threat to players with a “W” key and/or condi cleanse. Besides that there’s an easy way to reveal them. The trap thief is similar to the PU condi mesmer. You have more stealth but less damage.

It sounds even more like the old clone-death mesmer now.

I don’t use the build, but apparently it’s bad if thieves do it, but not mesmers. PU condi mesmers are the worst, trollish class/build out there.

I’ve seen plenty of mesmers defending their insane stealth builds, giving the standard ltp argument, and excuses for this and that, but if they have to face thieves that do something as annoying, then there’s the “non-biased” arguments to have it nerfed. (granted not all mesmers, probably a similar amount compared to thieves that will say there’s nothing wrong with the perma stealth condi build)

Hypocrisy at it’s finest (both thieves and mesmers are lumped into this).

As a Ghost Thief player reading this Thread

PU Mesmer loses to almost every heavy condition build from a Thief. Ghost Thief is also really good at it because they never see you so they can’t prep invis or a teleport. The only way a PU mesmer can survive is if they teleport away very quickly before I can place my 2nd Needle Trap. However, I’ve seen Shatter mesmers die from just a Steal and the 1st Needle Trap. Whether they’re spamming spells when they panic stealth or something… I dunno.

At the end of the day, if you’re being harassed by a Ghost Thief, drop a reveal trap on the floor and stand on it. Ghost Thief with no stealth is really crippling to us. If you don’t reveal us, we’ll follow you until you die or escape into a tower. Simply Steathing away doesn’t work because of the animation effects you make when you go invis are still visible when you’re invis… Kinda like how you can see and hear Infiltrators Arrow from an invis Thief. Also works with Shadow Shot, you can hear and see that too…

Anyway, I digress. It’s a pretty OP build but it certainly has its counters. The only way to Nerf it is to make certain abilities reveal you, like the Caltrops. You can’t make all conditions reveal you or else every Thief Build gets kittened ’cause you apply poison with your Auto swing chain… Kinda kittens over power builds like d/p or d/d.

The Traps themselves shouldn’t reveal… Trapper runes then become useless.

Right now, our biggest problem is Rangers. That kittenin’ AOE taunt, man. Still gets us when we’re invisible >_>. It’s gotten me killed 8 times. I’m counting.

uglydan.1638:

I don’t use the build, but apparently it’s bad if thieves do it, but not mesmers. PU condi mesmers are the worst, trollish class/build out there.

I’ve seen plenty of mesmers defending their insane stealth builds, giving the standard ltp argument, and excuses for this and that, but if they have to face thieves that do something as annoying, then there’s the “non-biased” arguments to have it nerfed. (granted not all mesmers, probably a similar amount compared to thieves that will say there’s nothing wrong with the perma stealth condi build)

Hypocrisy at it’s finest (both thieves and mesmers are lumped into this).

Wow, you’re really out of touch.
Permastealth is and always has been troll. The ability to deal noticable damage while remaining stealthed was actually a thing before the patch, as clones applied conditions when they died.
So there were, of course, mesmers that did that, and it was the most troll thing ever. It was also not super-effective, the best way to deal with a clone-death build was just to move along.

So here’s a thief build doing the same thing, and reportedly you just do the same thing…move along.

They’re not the same thing, because the key isn’t high stealth…it’s damage while stealthed.
You go ahead and keep sucking your lemons, though.

Nope, I am not out of touch. Permastealth isn’t so bad when the enemy can’t really do a lot to you, but it’s over the top when they can do a butt ton of damage without becoming visible, regardless of profession.

As a non-permastealth thief, I can do reasonably alright against the permastealth mesmers IF I have something to cloak and dagger off most of the time (not counting clones etc) but it’s usually better to just move along since if I get the mesmer low, they usually are slippery enough to get away.

uglydan.1638:

Nope, I am not out of touch. Permastealth isn’t so bad when the enemy can’t really do a lot to you, but it’s over the top when they can do a butt ton of damage without becoming visible, regardless of profession.

As a non-permastealth thief, I can do reasonably alright against the permastealth mesmers IF I have something to cloak and dagger off most of the time (not counting clones etc) but it’s usually better to just move along since if I get the mesmer low, they usually are slippery enough to get away.

What I mean is, there’s no such thing as a permastealth mesmer. It’s not possible.
That’s why you’re out of touch.

uglydan.1638:

As a non-permastealth thief, I can do reasonably alright against the permastealth mesmers IF I have something to cloak and dagger off most of the time (not counting clones etc) but it’s usually better to just move along since if I get the mesmer low, they usually are slippery enough to get away.

What were you saying about hypocrisy?

meepeY.2867:

As a Ghost Thief player reading this Thread

PU Mesmer loses to almost every heavy condition build from a Thief. Ghost Thief is also really good at it because they never see you so they can’t prep invis or a teleport. The only way a PU mesmer can survive is if they teleport away very quickly before I can place my 2nd Needle Trap. However, I’ve seen Shatter mesmers die from just a Steal and the 1st Needle Trap. Whether they’re spamming spells when they panic stealth or something… I dunno.

At the end of the day, if you’re being harassed by a Ghost Thief, drop a reveal trap on the floor and stand on it. Ghost Thief with no stealth is really crippling to us. If you don’t reveal us, we’ll follow you until you die or escape into a tower. Simply Steathing away doesn’t work because of the animation effects you make when you go invis are still visible when you’re invis… Kinda like how you can see and hear Infiltrators Arrow from an invis Thief. Also works with Shadow Shot, you can hear and see that too…

Anyway, I digress. It’s a pretty OP build but it certainly has its counters. The only way to Nerf it is to make certain abilities reveal you, like the Caltrops. You can’t make all conditions reveal you or else every Thief Build gets kittened ’cause you apply poison with your Auto swing chain… Kinda kittens over power builds like d/p or d/d.

The Traps themselves shouldn’t reveal… Trapper runes then become useless.

Right now, our biggest problem is Rangers. That kittenin’ AOE taunt, man. Still gets us when we’re invisible >_>. It’s gotten me killed 8 times. I’m counting.

i suddenly feel a strong need to bring reveal stealth traps…and that feels so wrong…why should i have to bring an external tool to fight??

Doritos are OPd!

Nerf that garbage NOW Frito-Lay!

EremiteAngel.9765:

meepeY.2867:

As a Ghost Thief player reading this Thread

PU Mesmer loses to almost every heavy condition build from a Thief. Ghost Thief is also really good at it because they never see you so they can’t prep invis or a teleport. The only way a PU mesmer can survive is if they teleport away very quickly before I can place my 2nd Needle Trap. However, I’ve seen Shatter mesmers die from just a Steal and the 1st Needle Trap. Whether they’re spamming spells when they panic stealth or something… I dunno.

At the end of the day, if you’re being harassed by a Ghost Thief, drop a reveal trap on the floor and stand on it. Ghost Thief with no stealth is really crippling to us. If you don’t reveal us, we’ll follow you until you die or escape into a tower. Simply Steathing away doesn’t work because of the animation effects you make when you go invis are still visible when you’re invis… Kinda like how you can see and hear Infiltrators Arrow from an invis Thief. Also works with Shadow Shot, you can hear and see that too…

Anyway, I digress. It’s a pretty OP build but it certainly has its counters. The only way to Nerf it is to make certain abilities reveal you, like the Caltrops. You can’t make all conditions reveal you or else every Thief Build gets kittened ’cause you apply poison with your Auto swing chain… Kinda kittens over power builds like d/p or d/d.

The Traps themselves shouldn’t reveal… Trapper runes then become useless.

Right now, our biggest problem is Rangers. That kittenin’ AOE taunt, man. Still gets us when we’re invisible >_>. It’s gotten me killed 8 times. I’m counting.

i suddenly feel a strong need to bring reveal stealth traps…and that feels so wrong…why should i have to bring an external tool to fight??

Because you can. And because you win if you do. So why not?

Thusad.8054:

EremiteAngel.9765:

meepeY.2867:

As a Ghost Thief player reading this Thread

PU Mesmer loses to almost every heavy condition build from a Thief. Ghost Thief is also really good at it because they never see you so they can’t prep invis or a teleport. The only way a PU mesmer can survive is if they teleport away very quickly before I can place my 2nd Needle Trap. However, I’ve seen Shatter mesmers die from just a Steal and the 1st Needle Trap. Whether they’re spamming spells when they panic stealth or something… I dunno.

At the end of the day, if you’re being harassed by a Ghost Thief, drop a reveal trap on the floor and stand on it. Ghost Thief with no stealth is really crippling to us. If you don’t reveal us, we’ll follow you until you die or escape into a tower. Simply Steathing away doesn’t work because of the animation effects you make when you go invis are still visible when you’re invis… Kinda like how you can see and hear Infiltrators Arrow from an invis Thief. Also works with Shadow Shot, you can hear and see that too…

Anyway, I digress. It’s a pretty OP build but it certainly has its counters. The only way to Nerf it is to make certain abilities reveal you, like the Caltrops. You can’t make all conditions reveal you or else every Thief Build gets kittened ’cause you apply poison with your Auto swing chain… Kinda kittens over power builds like d/p or d/d.

The Traps themselves shouldn’t reveal… Trapper runes then become useless.

Right now, our biggest problem is Rangers. That kittenin’ AOE taunt, man. Still gets us when we’re invisible >_>. It’s gotten me killed 8 times. I’m counting.

i suddenly feel a strong need to bring reveal stealth traps…and that feels so wrong…why should i have to bring an external tool to fight??

Because you can. And because you win if you do. So why not?

Well, you still have to kill a dire geared thief that has a shortbow.

EremiteAngel.9765:

PU stealth mesmers are fine. We still appear once every few moments.

Just because you found something that is more cancer than PU does not mean that it is fine Mate.

Assuming it’s about WvW. It’s funny to watch PU mesmers tear their hair out because they’ve been bested by a fellow cheesy broken build.

When I play Trapper thief, it’s mainly to stomp on the PU mesmers ego, although some of them can you give you a run for your money if you’re condi bombed while out of stealth.

Perma stealth is fun, but if you get revealed and don’t have a SB, you’re more than likely dead if it’s a 1vX, so I tend to run with PP/SB, since access to steath is sufficient with traps, stolen stealth and steal, along with Torment on rupt trait so I can condi bomb someone and then rupt their intent of healing or retaliate with pistol 4 and watch them melt.

It’s nasty, very nasty. However, Necros are still around, fortunately there aren’t many to put Trapper thief on his place.

Both PU and perma-stealth trap are annoying as hell because of their defensive, turtle-approach to fighting. But then again I guess the saltiness from both sides won’t go away.

Don’t exempt yourself, folks; if you’re running a defensive-style condi build don’t complain about being stomped by one.

Levetty.1279:

Its only OP if Mesmer can do it.

True dat.