Guild Wars 2

Any other classes i have is ok but when it comes to play my mesmer, I for now on refuse to play it in a ranked spvp tourn. Why should i? Why should i be the weakest link in the team & be food for thieves & bring me down more on the leader board. I’m hoping this will send a msg to Anet balancing team & fix this now.

I’m actually really good with my mez. Not one of the greats like Helseth or Subcu. But good anoth to 1v1 a win. But there is a problem & it needs to be addressed…

We all know the problem… When it comes to thieves, no matter what build you have, most of the time you win 1 in 3 vs a thief. There burst is just stupid. I’ve ranted on this before & alote of you have to. Ppl cried for mesmer nerf, & they got what they wanted. I’m crying HAVOC for re-balancing.

I understand the frustration, but have to disagree. This isn’t a class issue, it’s more of a meta issue.

The only case where thief hard counters mesmer is when mesmer plays a standard shatter build. Literally any other mesmer build has a solid chance at beating a thief 1 on 1 in PvP and winning more than 1 in 3. Even good shatter mesmers have a decent chance at beating good d/p thieves depending on how the first steal goes. s/d is the real problem with shatter mesmers. To fix that, Consume Plasma could maybe be toned down a tad.

Shatter mesmers are played at the highest levels in the current meta. In every other scenario (99%), many, many viable builds can be used, most of which perform decent vs most thieves out there.

skcamow.3527:

I understand the frustration, but have to disagree. This isn’t a class issue, it’s more of a meta issue.

The only case where thief hard counters mesmer is when mesmer plays a standard shatter build. Literally any other mesmer build has a solid chance at beating a thief 1 on 1 in PvP and winning more than 1 in 3. Even good shatter mesmers have a decent chance at beating good d/p thieves depending on how the first steal goes. s/d is the real problem with shatter mesmers. To fix that, Consume Plasma could maybe be toned down a tad.

Shatter mesmers are played at the highest levels in the current meta. In every other scenario (99%), many, many viable builds can be used, most of which perform decent vs most thieves out there.

Respectfully, i don’t agree. keeping the why as simple as possible. Not even meta.. thief mighty burst & quick incoming attacks as well as there in & out stealth.. .!!! Consume plasma is just the tip of the problem.

Vieux P.1238:

play it in a ranked spvp tourn. Why should i?

Removing the context makes the quote equally as valid.

(sorry, couldn’t help myself, still completely baffled something like sPvP is in a MMORPG)

Carighan.6758:

Vieux P.1238:

play it in a ranked spvp tourn. Why should i?

Removing the context makes the quote equally as valid.

(sorry, couldn’t help myself, still completely baffled something like sPvP is in a MMORPG)

Well the point is there’s a problem! & we want action!

I agree with skcamow, the problem is the meta moreso than the class.

Having a hardcounter isn’t a balance issue. Engis are hardcountered by Necros, Necros are completely shut down by lockdown Mesmer, Thieves have plenty of lousy matchups themselves. Check this from the How Mesmer Feel About Thieves thread in the Thief forum.

Arikyali.5804:

Meh..I get the feeling that thieves in general, are a little more ‘humble’ than mesmers. Usually. Not always. Just usually.

Mesmers hate thieves. It’s justified hate, it’s understandable hate, but it’s uneducated hate. I play both mesmer and thief, and I’ve see how they interact and counter each other. But if I try to defend a thief from mesmer, I know it’ll fall on deaf ears.

What counters a mesmer? Nothing but thief. What counters a thief? Everything but mesmer.

I’m in the minority here, but I feel Mesmer is pretty balanced for PvP atm. Yes Celestial Might Stacking is ridiculous, yes Engineers & some others need some tweeks, but things aren’t as terrible as this thread is making it out to seem.

There’s a lot that needs rebalancing, but this whack-a-mole stuff to fix class vs class interactions isn’t the way to go about it. And besides, what would you suggest? A buff to Mesmer? A nerf to Thieves? Crying just to make noise for a change is less likely to be listened to than a reasonable argument with reasonable requests.

[/quote]Crying just to make noise for a change is less likely to be listened to than a reasonable argument with reasonable requests.[/quote]

You would think! But untrue. Look at history, it’s fill with ppl all over the world fought & cried about inequality & there rights. & things has change for the better becuz they got heard by yelling about it. & it has bin prooven the same here. Peeps did cry about the mez bin to OP, what happened, we got nerfed! But we got nerfed to the point we aRe rekt as a class.

As a black man I’ve learned plenty about fighting for equal rights and seen more than my share of unfair dealings.

My point still stands: there is usually a plan and usually a goal. People don’t just scream out, there’s is sweat, blood, and tears poured into a unified ideal. Even if the methods are unorthodox, there is still a clear message desiring a specific result in many of the most influential protests

What would you like to see changed? Thieves nerfed? Mesmers buffed? Celestial nerfed? Is the problem really class-specific or an overarching issue with game balance? I’m fine with having a hard counter, but one hard counter doesn’t push a class out of the meta. A lack of defined role does.

Right now nearly all zerker classes are suffering, not just us.

I would say it is an overarching issue of mesmer being nerfed too heavily in the past, and other classes being buffed in a meaningful way where mesmers get “cute” new tricks here and there lookin at you disrsuptors sustaintment!

The cele meta needs gutted (or at least the classes that make the most use of the amulet.) Or mesmers ability to meaninfully tank damage needs brought up.

The biggest slap in the face of all time was when Anet said a long long long time ago when the broadcasts were called “State of the Game” and Josh Davis was a lowly shoutcaster instead of an Anet employee, that they want both warriors and mesmers to be weak to conditions.

They greatly buffed warriors sustainability against conditions to where now a bunker guardian can’t even cleanse conditions as fast as a warrior, and mesmers got the mantra cleanse to be AOE… even though by design we shouldn’t be in an area where we are in said AOE. Anet needs to seriously look at our ability to cleanse conditions and handle that.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

As a black man I’ve learned plenty about fighting for equal rights and seen more than my share of unfair dealings.

My point still stands: there is usually a plan and usually a goal. People don’t just scream out, there’s is sweat, blood, and tears poured into a unified ideal. Even if the methods are unorthodox, there is still a clear message desiring a specific result in many of the most influential protests

What would you like to see changed? Thieves nerfed? Mesmers buffed? Celestial nerfed? Is the problem really class-specific or an overarching issue with game balance? I’m fine with having a hard counter, but one hard counter doesn’t push a class out of the meta. A lack of defined role does.

Right now nearly all zerker classes are suffering, not just us.

Nerfing the thief? no! Tweaking it to be adjusted.. Yes! But I would love to see mesmer retooned.. tweaked. at least not go down on the first 3 hits of the thief spams.

Vieux P.1238:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

As a black man I’ve learned plenty about fighting for equal rights and seen more than my share of unfair dealings.

My point still stands: there is usually a plan and usually a goal. People don’t just scream out, there’s is sweat, blood, and tears poured into a unified ideal. Even if the methods are unorthodox, there is still a clear message desiring a specific result in many of the most influential protests

What would you like to see changed? Thieves nerfed? Mesmers buffed? Celestial nerfed? Is the problem really class-specific or an overarching issue with game balance? I’m fine with having a hard counter, but one hard counter doesn’t push a class out of the meta. A lack of defined role does.

Right now nearly all zerker classes are suffering, not just us.

Nerfing the thief? no! Tweaking it to be adjusted.. Yes! But I would love to see mesmer retooned.. tweaked. at least not go down on the first 3 hits of the thief spams.

I just started playing sPvP and I can share the same sentiment, mesmers need some love from ANet, enough with spoiling the thief community as is.

IMO the real problem is consume plasma. Like OP said, we’re literally food lol. 10s of all boons, how is that not OP? 3-4s would have been fine.

Vieux P.1238:

Nerfing the thief? no! Tweaking it to be adjusted.. Yes! But I would love to see mesmer retooned.. tweaked. at least not go down on the first 3 hits of the thief spams.

Then the real problem is lack of build diversity. =P An option to spec tankier while still being effective is needed. Hopefully the expansion will remedy this.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Vieux P.1238:

Nerfing the thief? no! Tweaking it to be adjusted.. Yes! But I would love to see mesmer retooned.. tweaked. at least not go down on the first 3 hits of the thief spams.

Then the real problem is lack of build diversity. =P An option to spec tankier while still being effective is needed. Hopefully the expansion will remedy this.

I really beg to disagree with the diversity thing.

Its either:

1.) People still won’t hop off the meta train/popular builds and try to experiment. (i.e. zerk CI build vs A Condi CI build)

2.) When People experiment, they don’t a lot enough time to test builds leaving the potential of a build greatly undiscovered.

3.) When people post/share their builds on the forums, the so called “pros” shoot them
down immediately without them testing the build itself, making the poster discouraged. (i.e. Cele builds)

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

There are a lot of revamps/fixes/ tweaks that the mesmer class needs which also limits diversity, but the main thing I see is the lack of courage to experiment.

One of the only reasons mesmer is taken by a few top tier pvp teams is because of portal. Otherwise thieves can do anything we can if you want a ganker. Or instead, why not take another cele ele to bunker down the points.

I dont believe mesmer is in that bad of a state. There are definately frustrations I have and many traits I would change.

Personally, I think some of the mesmer traits, skills, and so called buffs have me scratching my head and that anet really didnt have a clear vision for mesmer upon creation. This coupled with all the nerfs weve recieved to useful skills I think the mesmer traitlines have become a little confused.

Take for instance the glamour bomb nerf. One of our few reliable sources of condition damage was confusion. But not only did they nerf confusion but they nerfed skills like blinding glamours and befuddlement and leave that other glamour trait as a master trait in domination effectivley making it useless. Then they added maim the disillusioned because they realized they screwed up then they made further buffs to it making torment one of our only reliable conditions.

Now about thieves and mesmers. I where people get frustrated by thieves, I know I do, is when they come in out of nowhere while youre in the middle of fighting someone else, and 1-1-1 you to death in a few hits. If youre lucky and you havent blown all your cooldowns you might be able to get away but you gotta be quick. I know its frustrating but thats what thieves do. Thats their job, to make a fight uneven and end it quickly.

There are a couple of things that other people have mentioned that could be toned down on thieves like the duration of stolen items. Furthermore, shadow stepping through walls, uh uh… that downright kittenes me off. You get punished for good positioning and trying to line of sight them. They used to be able to do it at clock tower from the bottom floor, not sure if they still can. But the other day i was fighting a sd thief on skyhammer at point A and he shadow stepped through the wall by using steal on me. I still beat him but its the principle. Also, Their spammable shortbow blinks make it very difficult for a caster class who needs to reposition or get out of there by blinking to higher ground. Oh, and 1 more q.q, that trait or skill that sd thieves use to spam dazes, putting your skills on a short cd. Sometimes I think they make a better lockdown mesmer than a lockdown mesmer.

StickerHappy.8052:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Vieux P.1238:

Nerfing the thief? no! Tweaking it to be adjusted.. Yes! But I would love to see mesmer retooned.. tweaked. at least not go down on the first 3 hits of the thief spams.

Then the real problem is lack of build diversity. =P An option to spec tankier while still being effective is needed. Hopefully the expansion will remedy this.

I really beg to disagree with the diversity thing.

Its either:

1.) People still won’t hop off the meta train/popular builds and try to experiment. (i.e. zerk CI build vs A Condi CI build)

2.) When People experiment, they don’t a lot enough time to test builds leaving the potential of a build greatly undiscovered.

3.) When people post/share their builds on the forums, the so called “pros” shoot them
down immediately without them testing the build itself, making the poster discouraged. (i.e. Cele builds)

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

There are a lot of revamps/fixes/ tweaks that the mesmer class needs which also limits diversity, but the main thing I see is the lack of courage to experiment.

Both of you bring up good arguments. & yes, Plasma is more OP then our old Prismatic Understanding trait. & they bia@tch about it & Anet somehow listen & nerf us for it! So unfair.

But as a seasoned mesmer player & one who actually test all types of build & ways to play the mesmer efficiently. I’ve concluded threw out all my plays & all the types of builds & variation, there’s only 3 major things that we lack of. & that’s where they need to focus on. (Mind you one point) if they ever did fix the 3 points i’m about to list, the already greats as SubQ & HellS would go from Great to Gods & for good players to great ones. so here it is….

1-Speed, as in mobility. Unless you equip yourself for it, we lack of it. & lots of it.

2- Survivability, as in toughness or vitality. It’s kinda unfair to have to go zerker or rabid to be able to dmg anyone but leaving us vulnerable to either 15k crits or condition damage that melts you in seconds. & going the other way renders you useless in damaging anyone. So what’s the point!!!!?

3rd & most important, Casting time. We do have some great skill’s & all & some of them have bin buffed up. But what’s the point of doing so? I mean no matter how many skill’s they buff up, it serve you useless if you cant cast it cuz your dead. Even before you dish out your first skill, a thief immobilize & lock you out before the first click. Then poof in a flash your dead. So excuse me if i dont shout hourra when Anet so call patches up mesmers. Up to now patches bin very disappointing.

yay ppl here are talking about build diversity!

How did anet give diversity to us mesmers?

• removed glamour builds
• removed retalitation phantasm builds
• nerfed down Power Block after seeing that mesmers were actually able to play a new build
• kicked Illusionists Celerity to higher tiers (adept→grandmaster→master) Yes this helped build diversity a lot!

hype!

Isnt it illusionists celerity cost 25 pts befoe?

StickerHappy.8052:

Isnt it illusionists celerity cost 25 pts befoe?

Costed 5 in from launch and was pushed to 25 then back to 15.

Lets get back on subject. From the points above voice out your opinions. Now is the time.

I want to add that increasing build diversity doesn’t just mean trying to buff a few interrupt traits when due to to how the game works interrupt builds will never be useful outside of dueling.

StickerHappy.8052:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Vieux P.1238:

Nerfing the thief? no! Tweaking it to be adjusted.. Yes! But I would love to see mesmer retooned.. tweaked. at least not go down on the first 3 hits of the thief spams.

Then the real problem is lack of build diversity. =P An option to spec tankier while still being effective is needed. Hopefully the expansion will remedy this.

I really beg to disagree with the diversity thing.

Its either:

1.) People still won’t hop off the meta train/popular builds and try to experiment. (i.e. zerk CI build vs A Condi CI build)

2.) When People experiment, they don’t a lot enough time to test builds leaving the potential of a build greatly undiscovered.

3.) When people post/share their builds on the forums, the so called “pros” shoot them
down immediately without them testing the build itself, making the poster discouraged. (i.e. Cele builds)

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

There are a lot of revamps/fixes/ tweaks that the mesmer class needs which also limits diversity, but the main thing I see is the lack of courage to experiment.

1.) People aren’t hopping off the meta train/popular builds, because every new trait/build that Anet has given us to make other builds besides the meta shatter (PvP), is overall lack luster when it is compared to other classes doing the same build. The big standout here is halting strike. Sure interrupt builds are kinda creeping in, but aoe interrupting is still something that other classes can do better (Slick shoes anyone?).

2. Even our condi builds become weaker and weaker the bigger the team fight gets because we don’t put out enough cover conditions to keep what we have from getting cleansed. So once again other classes (Necro/engi) do it better. So yes people experiment extensively, but usually it winds up being the same conclusion.

3. Builds aren’t shot down immediately, however it is well known that a shatter build played by an amazing player will out perform most other builds when played by that same player.

People aren’t afraid to experiment with builds, its’ just that when we do, the same conclusion is usually drawn. For this game mode (speaking from pvp only), shatter is king. Even then the reason that mesmers are still taken in pvp is more so for portal than their spike damage.

Me Games Ma.8426:

yay ppl here are talking about build diversity!

How did anet give diversity to us mesmers?

• removed glamour builds
• removed retalitation phantasm builds
• nerfed down Power Block after seeing that mesmers were actually able to play a new build
• kicked Illusionists Celerity to higher tiers (adept->grandmaster->master) Yes this helped build diversity a lot!

hype!

Right?!

I can think of at least two build per class that have been viable for high end pvp since launch, except mesmer.

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

Ok alanis, gimme 1?

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

So you’re suggesting to build especially just against one class?

Caelus.7139:

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

So you’re suggesting to build especially just against one class?

This is a dumb question tbh, no offense.

Would you go against a condi class without 0 cleanse and expect to win?
Would you run towards an LB ranger with no reflects and expect to win?

Yes you can win against them but only at a very very low percent. same as your thief situation. Change builds and Adapt.
Yes you can build to counter another class’ build to win, not just thieves.

The hard counter happens against Shatter Mesmers, or other zerk specs, you can play another spec if you get frustrated.

I for one would respec for my team.

UNLESS you can only play 1 build.

Again, Its not just about building against thieves, you must be able to adapt to any situation.

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

Ok alanis, gimme 1?

Condi Mesmer.

Me Games Ma.8426:

yay ppl here are talking about build diversity!

How did anet give diversity to us mesmers?

• removed glamour builds
• removed retalitation phantasm builds
• nerfed down Power Block after seeing that mesmers were actually able to play a new build
• kicked Illusionists Celerity to higher tiers (adept->grandmaster->master) Yes this helped build diversity a lot!

hype!

Yep.

Well at least we got MtD and torment in return, but I agree that there is less diversity now than before, because of whining people from other classes saying nerf this/nerf that – and not only nerf it but break it completely in the process.

Me Games Ma.8426:

StickerHappy.8052:

Isnt it illusionists celerity cost 25 pts befoe?

Costed 5 in from launch and was pushed to 25 then back to 15.

Tbh there are times when I wish it was back at 5 point minor.

While Shatter Mesmers are especially vulnerable against Thieves I don’t agree that other builds overall have a significantly easier time against them. Thieves just happen to counter one of our major defensive mechanics (mobility) by just being better at it. The same goes for stealth. Mesmers also are at a disadvantage because most of our skills require a target which is pretty annoying when fighting someone who is constantly evading or stealthing up.

I don’t feel that nerving Thieves in general to make it easier for Mesmers is the right thing to do. While Mesmers might be at a very notable disadvantage against Thieves they do need their current tool set to be able to deal with the other classes.

There are some things which could easily be changed without causing too many balance issues. The most obvious one probably is Consume Plasma. It’s just ridiculous especially when facing a traited Steal.

That said, Thieves probably aren’t the sole (or the most important) reason Mesmers are having a rather hard time in the current meta. However, this might also be due to the fact that Thieves aren’t necessarily on every team as it has been in the past. The team with a Mesmer as a roamer will still be at a disadvantage if the opposing team runs a Thief.

StickerHappy.8052:

Caelus.7139:

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

So you’re suggesting to build especially just against one class?

This is a dumb question tbh, no offense.

Would you go against a condi class without 0 cleanse and expect to win?
Would you run towards an LB ranger with no reflects and expect to win?

Yes you can win against them but only at a very very low percent. same as your thief situation. Change builds and Adapt.
Yes you can build to counter another class’ build to win, not just thieves.

The hard counter happens against Shatter Mesmers, or other zerk specs, you can play another spec if you get frustrated.

I for one would respec for my team.

UNLESS you can only play 1 build.

Again, Its not just about building against thieves, you must be able to adapt to any situation.

You right to a certain extent. To help your team you respec to another class.

StickerHappy.8052:

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

Ok alanis, gimme 1?

Condi Mesmer.

Ah yes, the famous Condi mesmer.. Aka (PU Condi). Yes that was the great thief equalizer. I use to play one. But guess what, PU got nerfed among the other things & is no longer the great equalizer. So try again… ps: If you get downed by a condi mesmer, maybe you might want to considder spamming on button number 2 instead of just the usual button mashing number 1 to kill the mesmer. That might help..

Xaylin.1860:

While Shatter Mesmers are especially vulnerable against Thieves I don’t agree that other builds overall have a significantly easier time against them. Thieves just happen to counter one of our major defensive mechanics (mobility) by just being better at it. The same goes for stealth. Mesmers also are at a disadvantage because most of our skills require a target which is pretty annoying when fighting someone who is constantly evading or stealthing up.

I don’t feel that nerving Thieves in general to make it easier for Mesmers is the right thing to do. While Mesmers might be at a very notable disadvantage against Thieves they do need their current tool set to be able to deal with the other classes.

There are some things which could easily be changed without causing too many balance issues. The most obvious one probably is Consume Plasma. It’s just ridiculous especially when facing a traited Steal.

That said, Thieves probably aren’t the sole (or the most important) reason Mesmers are having a rather hard time in the current meta. However, this might also be due to the fact that Thieves aren’t necessarily on every team as it has been in the past. The team with a Mesmer as a roamer will still be at a disadvantage if the opposing team runs a Thief.

Unless i miss something, Except for maybe plasma & some tweaking, nobody talked about nurfing the thief for the benefit of the mesmer. No, we talk mostly about what’s wrong with the mesmer vs the thief & you do bring up some valid points on that subject. We as in mesmer players want real adjustments. Real fixes. To make it viable vs all classes as they are viable towards us & all others. & anyone saying that the mesmer is not broken & the fault stands to the player skill, is an idiot!!! & does not know what the hell he is talking about.

Vieux P.1238:

Xaylin.1860:

While Shatter Mesmers are especially vulnerable against Thieves I don’t agree that other builds overall have a significantly easier time against them. Thieves just happen to counter one of our major defensive mechanics (mobility) by just being better at it. The same goes for stealth. Mesmers also are at a disadvantage because most of our skills require a target which is pretty annoying when fighting someone who is constantly evading or stealthing up.

I don’t feel that nerving Thieves in general to make it easier for Mesmers is the right thing to do. While Mesmers might be at a very notable disadvantage against Thieves they do need their current tool set to be able to deal with the other classes.

There are some things which could easily be changed without causing too many balance issues. The most obvious one probably is Consume Plasma. It’s just ridiculous especially when facing a traited Steal.

That said, Thieves probably aren’t the sole (or the most important) reason Mesmers are having a rather hard time in the current meta. However, this might also be due to the fact that Thieves aren’t necessarily on every team as it has been in the past. The team with a Mesmer as a roamer will still be at a disadvantage if the opposing team runs a Thief.

Unless i miss something, Except for maybe plasma & some tweaking, nobody talked about nurfing the thief for the benefit of the mesmer. No, we talk mostly about what’s wrong with the mesmer vs the thief & you do bring up some valid points on that subject. We as in mesmer players want real adjustments. Real fixes. To make it viable vs all classes as they are viable towards us & all others. & anyone saying that the mesmer is not broken & the fault stands to the player skill, is an idiot!!! & does not know what the hell he is talking about.

Yep. Reiterating my rant on Consume Plasma. 10s of all boons is just overkill. It’s like Anet saying to Thieves, “Hey, if you guys see any mesmers they count as boons.”

Vieux P.1238:

StickerHappy.8052:

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

Ok alanis, gimme 1?

Condi Mesmer.

Ah yes, the famous Condi mesmer.. Aka (PU Condi). Yes that was the great thief equalizer. I use to play one. But guess what, PU got nerfed among the other things & is no longer the great equalizer. So try again… ps: If you get downed by a condi mesmer, maybe you might want to considder spamming on button number 2 instead of just the usual button mashing number 1 to kill the mesmer. That might help..

Most maim builds wreck thieves.
PU, played well, wrecks thieves.
Countless’ clone on death build obliterates thieves.
Certain celestial specs wreck thieves, though you won’t see them actively advertised here cause haters.

I could go on with various power builds but don’t see the point. Build diversity isn’t perfect but certainly not the problem in this case. There are plenty of viable builds that can be used when you see a thief on the other team. It just takes more experimentation to play these other builds so that when you’re up against a thief you have options, as opposed to the inflection in this thread that mesmers are rendered helpless against them.

skcamow.3527:

Vieux P.1238:

StickerHappy.8052:

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

Ok alanis, gimme 1?

Condi Mesmer.

Ah yes, the famous Condi mesmer.. Aka (PU Condi). Yes that was the great thief equalizer. I use to play one. But guess what, PU got nerfed among the other things & is no longer the great equalizer. So try again… ps: If you get downed by a condi mesmer, maybe you might want to considder spamming on button number 2 instead of just the usual button mashing number 1 to kill the mesmer. That might help..

Most maim builds wreck thieves.
PU, played well, wrecks thieves.
Countless’ clone on death build obliterates thieves.
Certain celestial specs wreck thieves, though you won’t see them actively advertised here cause haters.

I could go on with various power builds but don’t see the point. Build diversity isn’t perfect but certainly not the problem in this case. There are plenty of viable builds that can be used when you see a thief on the other team. It just takes more experimentation to play these other builds so that when you’re up against a thief you have options, as opposed to the inflection in this thread that mesmers are rendered helpless against them.

Sorry for off-topic but just wanted to ask, from my 7 month absence prior to now, were celestial stats buffed?

On-topic though, since expac is coming and hearing how “build diversity” has been one of the major focuses of the devs alongside specializations, it brings some sort of hope. Then again it could mean nerfing and breaking here and there again.

skcamow.3527:

Build diversity isn’t perfect but certainly not the problem in this case.

I’d say in the larger context it is actually one of the biggest issues with build diversity in this game, the thief issue is not just a mesmer problem, nearly every glassy build on any class is subpar to thief with very rare exceptions like medi guard which has other issues.

In the vast majority of cases a glass thief simply has better engage, better disengage, overall better survivability, better mobility and usually harder to avoid burst than glass builds on other classes.

The result of which is classes either go to more defensive sustainable options – e.g engy you never see a static discharge zerker for the aforementioned reasons, so they have gone either condi or cele.

Or you have examples like mes or ele (when ele does not have anything else viable like the months pre-celestial patch) and they simply go glass and suck it up as being thief food, and simply end up as a rare sight in teams.

It is also a problem for thieves, as Anet’s “answer” seems to be quite a lot of nerfing, which just makes thieves weaker and weaker against builds they already struggle with, whilst doing very little to lessen the way they counter other classes going glass.

skcamow.3527:

Vieux P.1238:

StickerHappy.8052:

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

Ok alanis, gimme 1?

Condi Mesmer.

Ah yes, the famous Condi mesmer.. Aka (PU Condi). Yes that was the great thief equalizer. I use to play one. But guess what, PU got nerfed among the other things & is no longer the great equalizer. So try again… ps: If you get downed by a condi mesmer, maybe you might want to considder spamming on button number 2 instead of just the usual button mashing number 1 to kill the mesmer. That might help..

Most maim builds wreck thieves.
PU, played well, wrecks thieves.
Countless’ clone on death build obliterates thieves.
Certain celestial specs wreck thieves, though you won’t see them actively advertised here cause haters.

I could go on with various power builds but don’t see the point. Build diversity isn’t perfect but certainly not the problem in this case. There are plenty of viable builds that can be used when you see a thief on the other team. It just takes more experimentation to play these other builds so that when you’re up against a thief you have options, as opposed to the inflection in this thread that mesmers are rendered helpless against them.

In the past i would agree with you. But all does builds bin seriously chopped off & has not much to offer anymore. Shatter is the best bet that’s stands a chance IF your a great player at it. Unlike the 1-2 button smash where any newb can call himself a Gw2 master. Most thief i encountered do.

Reading this makes me ponder. The biggest problem is our lack of generating boons. The only option we have is the hated pu. But think about what it gives. Life giving boons. The problem is pu is tied to stealth so can’t be used in conquest mode. The other posts say consume plasma is an issue. But think what it does it lets the thief have access to boons. No wonder why they target us.

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

Ok alanis, gimme 1?

MtD builds
Various Signet builds (Countless clone-death; Celestial signet interrupt)
Various Lockdown builds (both CS and CI hold up fairly well)

denis.9487:

Reading this makes me ponder. The biggest problem is our lack of generating boons. The only option we have is the hated pu. But think about what it gives. Life giving boons. The problem is pu is tied to stealth so can’t be used in conquest mode. The other posts say consume plasma is an issue. But think what it does it lets the thief have access to boons. No wonder why they target us.

CS and CA give a good amount of boons. The Chaos line also grants additional boons through minor (regen, prot) and major (BI) traits.

alanis.6094:

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

Ok alanis, gimme 1?

MtD builds
Various Signet builds (Countless clone-death; Celestial signet interrupt)
Various Lockdown builds (both CS and CI hold up fairly well)

Seriously Alanis do you even play a mesmer? Sure, does builds & others not mentioned are good. In the good old days. But i’m sorry, there no longer viable vs a thief among others. Not in a 1v1 situation. If you have help, no problem. but otherwise, plz stop trying to convince there’s no problem with the mesmer.

& no, it’s not a Boon problem. Boon traits we have. I’ve already mentioned what we lack of up in the thread. Read it!

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

Ok alanis, gimme 1?

MtD builds
Various Signet builds (Countless clone-death; Celestial signet interrupt)
Various Lockdown builds (both CS and CI hold up fairly well)

Seriously Alanis do you even play a mesmer? Sure, does builds & others not mentioned are good. In the good old days. But i’m sorry, there no longer viable vs a thief among others. Not in a 1v1 situation. If you have help, no problem. but otherwise, plz stop trying to convince there’s no problem with the mesmer.

& no, it’s not a Boon problem. Boon traits we have. I’ve already mentioned what we lack of up in the thread. Read it!

I’m R77 in PvP, almost entirely on Mesmer. I’m around rank 350 in WvW, almost entirely roaming with my Mesmer. Its very likely that I have more hours on a Mesmer than you, but who knows maybe not (but a quick perusal of your past several months of posts, including how you found the only viable build as PU power and condi makes me think otherwise).

MtD builds vs S/D? its a pretty good matchup and comes down almost entirely to play skill and being able to catch them with a nice condi bomb, and not losing that to evade spam. But can still get away with making a few errors.

MtD builds vs D/P? Laughably easy. More hard-counter than thieves vs shatter meta.

Signet builds? I’m just going to assume that you have zero experience with Mesmer signet builds. The build I play the most is a lockdown version of countless’s build, and it just wrecks thieves. From countless’ video’s and stream, he doesn’t have problems with thieves either.

CI Lockdown does fine vs thieves. Often “how good” is determined by which weapons you bring, but I never have felt like I was hardcountered when I ran as CI. At least 40% win rate vs thieves, if not higher.

I don’t have as much experience as CS, but Ross does fairly well vs thieves there.

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

Ok alanis, gimme 1?

MtD builds
Various Signet builds (Countless clone-death; Celestial signet interrupt)
Various Lockdown builds (both CS and CI hold up fairly well)

Seriously Alanis do you even play a mesmer? Sure, does builds & others not mentioned are good. In the good old days. But i’m sorry, there no longer viable vs a thief among others. Not in a 1v1 situation. If you have help, no problem. but otherwise, plz stop trying to convince there’s no problem with the mesmer.

& no, it’s not a Boon problem. Boon traits we have. I’ve already mentioned what we lack of up in the thread. Read it!

It’s funny because you have to ask the same question when, after someone mentions condi to counter thief, you jump to (and only mention in ultimate exclusivity) PU.

Anyway, she’s also not wrong about CS. Our excessive stun access along with AI overwhelm Thieves because of what they lack as a class. The only real trouble is that pound for pound of square, unadulterated effort, even with a favorable build vs a Thief, we have to put so much more in. Thieves always have their 1, or 2 repeat spam, as you’ve been rhetorically apt to point out.

Vieux P.1238:

skcamow.3527:

Vieux P.1238:

StickerHappy.8052:

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

Ok alanis, gimme 1?

Condi Mesmer.

Ah yes, the famous Condi mesmer.. Aka (PU Condi). Yes that was the great thief equalizer. I use to play one. But guess what, PU got nerfed among the other things & is no longer the great equalizer. So try again… ps: If you get downed by a condi mesmer, maybe you might want to considder spamming on button number 2 instead of just the usual button mashing number 1 to kill the mesmer. That might help..

Most maim builds wreck thieves.
PU, played well, wrecks thieves.
Countless’ clone on death build obliterates thieves.
Certain celestial specs wreck thieves, though you won’t see them actively advertised here cause haters.

I could go on with various power builds but don’t see the point. Build diversity isn’t perfect but certainly not the problem in this case. There are plenty of viable builds that can be used when you see a thief on the other team. It just takes more experimentation to play these other builds so that when you’re up against a thief you have options, as opposed to the inflection in this thread that mesmers are rendered helpless against them.

In the past i would agree with you. But all does builds bin seriously chopped off & has not much to offer anymore. Shatter is the best bet that’s stands a chance IF your a great player at it. Unlike the 1-2 button smash where any newb can call himself a Gw2 master. Most thief i encountered do.

Shatter is the only thing that stands chance? Wth are you talking about? It seems like you cant or dont wanna play another build. And do not question my skills in pvp, i have faced really good thieves. Now for this matter, if you get owned on a tanky spec, i will say this is a l2p issue, all this crying makes me sick.

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

Vieux P.1238:

alanis.6094:

StickerHappy.8052:

4.) I still don’t understand behind the idealogy of meta, its not as if 95% of the mesmer population will play top tier pvp.

This x100. Crying about thieves when there are many Mesmer builds that handle them just fine, is a problem with individuals not the profession.

Ok alanis, gimme 1?

MtD builds
Various Signet builds (Countless clone-death; Celestial signet interrupt)
Various Lockdown builds (both CS and CI hold up fairly well)

Seriously Alanis do you even play a mesmer? Sure, does builds & others not mentioned are good. In the good old days. But i’m sorry, there no longer viable vs a thief among others. Not in a 1v1 situation. If you have help, no problem. but otherwise, plz stop trying to convince there’s no problem with the mesmer.

& no, it’s not a Boon problem. Boon traits we have. I’ve already mentioned what we lack of up in the thread. Read it!

Again saying there are no longer viable builds against thief is kitten. Also avoid your attacks to alanis. I wanna ask how many pvp games do you have? This might gives us a better idea on where you are at.

Just a quick question if our viability is so good vs anyone why are we not represented in spvp? Why are we forced to solo roam or duel? If this was duel wars then we would be king!!! We do need help to bring us into all game modes Imo.

As I constantly point out, anytime somebody tries to start a conversation about the weaknesses of the Mesmer class and the poor way in which the balance team have handled the class somebody always comes in to tell us stories about how they can take on entire enemy zergs or 1v1 thiefs with no traits.

Very tiring.

I love playing my individualized mesmer build. But I understand, that you are not satisfied with the standard shatter build.

Levetty.1279:

As I constantly point out, anytime somebody tries to start a conversation about the weaknesses of the Mesmer class and the poor way in which the balance team have handled the class somebody always comes in to tell us stories about how they can take on entire enemy zergs or 1v1 thiefs with no traits.

Very tiring.

What’s even more tiring is having to constantly scrolls past these endless posts of self-flagellation. Which fill every classes’ forum, mind you. Because everyone is certain ANet treats them the worst.