Guild Wars 2

Quadox.7834:

Iavra.8510:

Clones aren’t waiting in stealth, they continue attacking.

I’m all for nerfing PU, but let’s fix The Pledge first and see how this turns out.

Dont fix the pledge. It is actually a good trait. No good mesmer currently takes the pledge or the illusions line. For gods sake dont nerf it.

Illusions is the #1 line for condition builds. And you can look at it in any way you want, the trait is bugged and needs to be fixed.

Iavra.8510:

Quadox.7834:

Iavra.8510:

Clones aren’t waiting in stealth, they continue attacking.

I’m all for nerfing PU, but let’s fix The Pledge first and see how this turns out.

Dont fix the pledge. It is actually a good trait. No good mesmer currently takes the pledge or the illusions line. For gods sake dont nerf it.

Illusions is the #1 line for condition builds. And you can look at it in any way you want, the trait is bugged and needs to be fixed.

Yeah, the trait is both badly bugged and horribly conceived. Rewarding you for sitting in stealth in the form of more stealth cooldowns is rather boring. It should either be a flat 20% or something incentivizing offensive play such as cd per stack of burning applied.

Noss.4105:

The raging outsider is right, PU is disgusting atm. I don’t think there’s any other trait in the game that is as overpowered as PU. Not only does it double your stealth uptime and stack you with boons, it also makes it a lot harder to counterplay the burst.

Revert it back to +1 second and it would still be perfectly viable grandmaster trait. Maybe put a super speed or something on it.

Agree. doubled stealth + PU is pretty ridiculous atm.

Noss.4105:

The raging outsider is right, PU is disgusting atm. I don’t think there’s any other trait in the game that is as overpowered as PU. Not only does it double your stealth uptime and stack you with boons, it also makes it a lot harder to counterplay the burst.

Revert it back to +1 second and it would still be perfectly viable grandmaster trait. Maybe put a super speed or something on it.

I agree, it’s crazy.

On a related note I was playing condition shatter without PU (bountiful disillusionment is more fun) but using sword/torch earlier today and fought against a good power shatter mesmer using PU and sword/torch plus GS – the double stealth duration together with torch cooldowns had me at a significant disadvantage, for example where I had to use several cooldowns to mitigate damage they could wait many things out in stealth. I believe PU encourages sloppy gameplay, but when it is used well it is often uncounterable unless you yourself also run PU (and then things just end in a stalemate).

Power shatter only rarely goes into Illusions, so i would doubt he had The Pledge traited. Especially if he had PU, going for that trait means either giving up on Domination (100% stun, vuln-spam, shatter damage or power block) or Dueling (DE, blinds, perma-fury, vigor).

I can imagine power shatter going Inspiration for the cleanse and heals, but Illusions is kinda unlikely.

Iavra.8510:

Power shatter only rarely goes into Illusions, so i would doubt he had The Pledge traited. Especially if he had PU, going for that trait means either giving up on Domination (100% stun, vuln-spam, shatter damage or power block) or Dueling (DE, blinds, perma-fury, vigor).

I can imagine power shatter going Inspiration for the cleanse and heals, but Illusions is kinda unlikely.

Good point, my stupid mistake.

I’d also point out that the general advice on the board is that power shatter outmatches condi shatter.
So going by that, popular opinion would be that you’re already at a significant disadvantage going condi shatter vs power shatter.

If he did have The Pledge, though, I’d suggest that that’s probably his only condi cleanse. 2 cleanses can clean out torment/confusion, but if you ensure a deeper condi stack he’ll be ticking damage during that stealth. Adding some bleed sources to your condi shatter build could improve your performance against low-cleanse builds like pledge+PU.

I’d also ask if you’re running carrion or rabid.
I imagine carrion is going to have a harder time against power shatter both by the nature of toughness vs vitality, and because physical damage will do less against stealth builds than dueling builds by virtue of having a deeper condi stack (bleeds) ticking against them while they are in stealth, while the power is doing you no good while they are stealthed.
I’d be curious to hear the experiences of anyone who has tried both Rabid and Carrion builds extensively in sPvP, if it matches up with my thoughts.

Lastly, I’m curious if you think that PU outmatching anyone in a 1v1 is a good reason to make balance decisions.

Tbh, a BD condie shatter build should be able to tear most power shatter builds a new one, particularly if you’re using sword. Blurred frenzy allows you to dodge the bulk of their bursts if you combine it with a stunbreak quickly enough. Blinding dissipation can be used predictively to help with that as well. High toughness from rabid allows you to eat a couple bursts without dying, and landing a couple full shatters will literally outright kill most power shatter builds due to lack of cleanse.

Condie shatter is considered worse than power shatter in teams due to being functionally useless against a lot of popular matchups, not because the direct matchup between it and power shatter.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

I’d also point out that the general advice on the board is that power shatter outmatches condi shatter.
So going by that, popular opinion would be that you’re already at a significant disadvantage going condi shatter vs power shatter.

(((yes it does, and I’m not playing a “meta” condi build anyway seeing as I don’t use blinding dissipation or scepter)))

If he did have The Pledge, though, I’d suggest that that’s probably his only condi cleanse. 2 cleanses can clean out torment/confusion, but if you ensure a deeper condi stack he’ll be ticking damage during that stealth. Adding some bleed sources to your condi shatter build could improve your performance against low-cleanse builds like pledge+PU.

(((as I said my mistake on the torch trait. In any case we could both dodge each other’s bursts all day long so most of the time it was stalemate because neither was landing much damage on the other whether power or condition.)))

I’d also ask if you’re running carrion or rabid.
I imagine carrion is going to have a harder time against power shatter both by the nature of toughness vs vitality, and because physical damage will do less against stealth builds than dueling builds by virtue of having a deeper condi stack (bleeds) ticking against them while they are in stealth, while the power is doing you no good while they are stealthed.
I’d be curious to hear the experiences of anyone who has tried both Rabid and Carrion builds extensively in sPvP, if it matches up with my thoughts.

(((rabid, although I should switch to carrion because I play very aggressively because of using sword clones which otherwise get cleaved down fast)))

Lastly, I’m curious if you think that PU outmatching anyone in a 1v1 is a good reason to make balance decisions.

(((Yes. Regardless of “unsupported dedicated gametype”, I’d wager many players value the result of 1v1’s above all else because of being human and yes my opinion is it should absolutely be a factor in balance decisions. Not the overriding factor, but a factor nonetheless. In wvw you can avoid 1v1 but then what’s the point in playing, and in pvp 1v1 happens all the time – whether on a side node or anywhere away from a teamfight. It’s not always possible or the best solution to out rotate. Nevermind wvw where not running PU vs someone running PU is pretty much no contest.

The other subjective thing is both playing and fighting against PU is just so boring seeing as it often ends in a draw or stealth and running away. I’d rather die to stun/interrupt+burst tbh – at least there will be a result of the fight…)))

Fay.2357:

Tbh, a BD condie shatter build should be able to tear most power shatter builds a new one, particularly if you’re using sword. Blurred frenzy allows you to dodge the bulk of their bursts if you combine it with a stunbreak quickly enough. Blinding dissipation can be used predictively to help with that as well. High toughness from rabid allows you to eat a couple bursts without dying, and landing a couple full shatters will literally outright kill most power shatter builds due to lack of cleanse.

Condie shatter is considered worse than power shatter in teams due to being functionally useless against a lot of popular matchups, not because the direct matchup between it and power shatter.

Yeah, I don’t use blinding dissipation so my fault.

You know why?

The sound effect really grates on my ears…

Yes it’s stupid. :p

I’ll also attribute it to being the first day I’ve played in like 6 weeks so a bit rusty.

apharma.3741:

docMed you have no idea what you’re talking about and nearly everything you have said is gross exaggeration or flat out wrong.

DP thief has more on demand stealth and can stealth allies easier than mesmer.
Clones don’t sit in stealth, in fact the auto attack and break out of stealth.
DP thieves have the same amount of teleports if not more.

Seriously how do you fair against thieves because they will eat you for breakfast as the bursts are not too different in amount of damage and a thief can rip 2 boons from you.

They can also do their backstab about every 5-7s or just follow up with HS/shadowshot to keep the damage on.

If you are losing to a thief, it is you. Mesmer is in a great spot right now.

If you are playing power, a good thief will still counter you, it just isn’t as easy as it was before.

Rizigmar.2681:

Lets face it, the only thing Thief is better than mesmer is in the mobility department. Everything else Mesmer does better. There’s nothing like summoning Phantasms from ranged and chunking the enemy or blowing their dodge while still being in stealth. D/P Thief stealth is on demand true, but can be interrupted unless they carry black powder to blast it. The usual D/P BP+HS combo however can be interrupted and can punish the thief pretty heavily. Meanwhile mesmers pretty much get free passes to one shot almost any zerker build just because of the extended stealth durations and rewards being in stealth with really strong defensive boons, on top of that, invulns and blinds.

Short story/ Mesmers are Thieves 2.0, though with lower mobility.

Good. Thieves didn’t seem to mind killing us with their eyes closed for years; I hope they enjoy them apples.

msalakka.4653:

Good. Thieves didn’t seem to mind killing us with their eyes closed for years; I hope they enjoy them apples.

Thieves haven’t been top-tier fighters for a long time now. They got and still get very much countered by probably any other decent power (except for warrior), hybrid and condition build on any other profession at the moment. They had an advantage over power mesmers, but now there’s nothing left to keep mesmers in check anymore except for some special snowflake builds and celementalists (which we probably agree on, also need more than getting looked at).

Some former main mesmer players I know and play with switched to other professions because they consider the current state of mesmers unbearable, some of them even expressed, they don’t think they can get better at the game when the profession and their players rely on the current imbalances.

Thieves handle many builds pretty well. Mb with some exceptions like celeele, mediguard, condi mesmer. Decent (!) thieves had upper hand against power mesmer before patch, got more equal footing after patch (mantra and MB nerf…). Sometimes ppl call me cheesy fotm mesm reroller ( ). But when I suggest them 1×1 bo5 duel with me playing thief and opponent playing ANY mesmer buld, they reject )) .

maeggle.6021:

Some former main mesmer players I know and play with switched to other professions because they consider the current state of mesmers unbearable, some of them even expressed, they don’t think they can get better at the game when the profession and their players rely on the current imbalances.

Pray tell me what these other professions are that they feel are not overpowered, and which builds they play. I am going to guess balanced builds requiring loads of skill and intricate gameplay, such as d/d ele, cele necro, and everyone’s favorite, burn guard.

maeggle.6021:

msalakka.4653:

Good. Thieves didn’t seem to mind killing us with their eyes closed for years; I hope they enjoy them apples.

Thieves haven’t been top-tier fighters for a long time now. They got and still get very much countered by probably any other decent power (except for warrior), hybrid and condition build on any other profession at the moment. They had an advantage over power mesmers, but now there’s nothing left to keep mesmers in check anymore except for some special snowflake builds and celementalists (which we probably agree on, also need more than getting looked at).

Some former main mesmer players I know and play with switched to other professions because they consider the current state of mesmers unbearable, some of them even expressed, they don’t think they can get better at the game when the profession and their players rely on the current imbalances.

So tired of the last paragraph. If by unbearable or imbalanced you mean Mesmer actually is on par with other classes besides burning ele. Mesmer is in a good place that needs some fine tuning. Still waiting to see the Mesmer represented and dominating at a higher level.

denis.9487:

Still waiting to see the Mesmer represented and dominating at a higher level.

This is really the key.
We didn’t see Mesmer over-represented in the last round of tourneys, did we?
Though iirc we did see some representation, which is a step up from before June.

style.6173:

apharma.3741:

docMed you have no idea what you’re talking about and nearly everything you have said is gross exaggeration or flat out wrong.

DP thief has more on demand stealth and can stealth allies easier than mesmer.
Clones don’t sit in stealth, in fact the auto attack and break out of stealth.
DP thieves have the same amount of teleports if not more.

Seriously how do you fair against thieves because they will eat you for breakfast as the bursts are not too different in amount of damage and a thief can rip 2 boons from you.

They can also do their backstab about every 5-7s or just follow up with HS/shadowshot to keep the damage on.

If you are losing to a thief, it is you. Mesmer is in a great spot right now.

Well, I did create a thread asking for advise on thieves, you might want to check that out for the general gist.

Here’s the advice given by a thief “dodge steal” which is the most ridiculous advise I’ve seen in a long time. You just dodge an instant cast teleport and daze that gives them every boon to counter you with.

Essentially it comes down to who lands the burst first. If thief does it puts Mesmer on the back foot and gives thief the advantage, if Mesmer lands first it’s the opposite. So no, it’s not me.

maeggle.6021:

Thieves haven’t been top-tier fighters for a long time now.

Two years of meta history, and most recent tournaments proves this statement entirely false.

Like not even close to true.

Thieves have been a value to teams since the beginning of this game. and with the elite spec soon, even more so.

maeggle.6021:

Some former main mesmer players I know and play with switched to other professions because they consider the current state of mesmers unbearable, some of them even expressed, they don’t think they can get better at the game when the profession and their players rely on the current imbalances.

If mesmers were so unbalanced and crazy strong, we’d see them dominating in tournaments. Unfortunately for your “argument”, they don’t dominate in tournaments. They’re at least played in tournaments now, which is a step up from before…but hardly ‘unbearably unbalanced’. Any Mesmer main that switched to another class due to recent buffs isn’t a Mesmer main, they’re just a hipster that wants to be a special snowflake and always play the worst class in the game.

It’s interesting to see complaints against mesmer on predicting bursts out of stealth. This has been a gripe mesmers had with thieves for a long time. Thieves would typically brush this off with these arguments:

1) We’re not invulnerable while in stealth (mesmers have too little AoE to play guessing games)
2) Count to 4 then dodge (good thieves switch up timing…also SR)
3) Use your defensive skills (works once, but too easy for thief to try stealthing again before they’re back off CD)
4) Deny stealth (see 3…also, with a BP/HS combo, a thief can still get off a 2nd HS after being interrupted by daze mantra)

I’m not defending one side or the other, but the tables have certainly turned a bit.

cyyrix.6105:

It’s interesting to see complaints against mesmer on predicting bursts out of stealth. This has been a gripe mesmers had with thieves for a long time. Thieves would typically brush this off with these arguments:

1) We’re not invulnerable while in stealth (mesmers have too little AoE to play guessing games)
2) Count to 4 then dodge (good thieves switch up timing...also SR)
3) Use your defensive skills (works once, but too easy for thief to try stealthing again before they’re back off CD)
4) Deny stealth (see 3...also, with a BP/HS combo, a thief can still get off a 2nd HS after being interrupted by daze mantra)

I’m not defending one side or the other, but the tables have certainly turned a bit.

Couldn’t agree more - thieves are still really strong even against mesmers, etc, and outside of the stealth duration I really like the place mesmers are in (thief vs mesmer is in a fun place at the moment). It’s just literally the +stealth duration via PU that is a bit too strong. Mesmers and thieves have different mechanics entering stealth though and there are a lot of methods to pull thieves out (push/knockback/fear/taunt out of SR) where as the only method is interrupting a Mesmer (they don’t have to sit in a confined place to enter stealth and they also have a lot of instant cast stealths available), which leads me back to the initial point I made regarding the inability to really counter play the mechanic. Mesmer burst (at least when landed properly with a clone or two + shatter) is also definitely higher than a thieves at the moment; there is nothing we can 1 shot in sPvP unless we are running like a gimmicky D/D build and/or sigil of agi + might stacking and that’s only against other glass builds. But either way, this post was definitely not about thief vs mesmer - I think that’s actually overall in a fairly good place now - I’d just love to see mass/PU get nerfed a bit in duration (down to 6 seconds or so) to keep players not in stealth from simply wasting all evades/random dodges trying to predict when the burst/shatter is coming.

On a side note; I also think shadow arts is stupidly OP in sPvP and WvW (rejuv in stealth needs to be nerfed significantly).

Iavra.8510:

If you are playing power, a good thief will still counter you, it just isn’t as easy as it was before.

Agreed; thief vs mesmer is in a much better place with each being able to get opened on/out-played by the other.

docMed.7692:

I’d just love to see mass/PU get nerfed a bit in duration (down to 6 seconds or so) to keep players not in stealth from simply wasting all evades/random dodges trying to predict when the burst/shatter is coming.

This is amusingly hypocritical. If you think an elite skill with a 90s cooldown and an enormous 1.75 second channel that gives 5s base stealth needs to be nerfed, you’re out of your mind when thief can get even more stealth on a lower cooldown without trait investment or a long channel by just dropping shadow refuge. Yes, you can be knocked out, so try dodging next time.

In order to reach the amount of stealth that a thief can get simply by using shadow refuge, we have to burn an elite, another stealth skill, and be traited for PU. If you really think those should be nerfed, then you’ll surely agree that SR should only give 8s maximum, and the radius of the skill should be dropped by 25%.

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

I’d just love to see mass/PU get nerfed a bit in duration (down to 6 seconds or so) to keep players not in stealth from simply wasting all evades/random dodges trying to predict when the burst/shatter is coming.

This is amusingly hypocritical. If you think an elite skill with a 90s cooldown and an enormous 1.75 second channel that gives 5s base stealth needs to be nerfed, you’re out of your mind when thief can get even more stealth on a lower cooldown without trait investment or a long channel by just dropping shadow refuge. Yes, you can be knocked out, so try dodging next time.

In order to reach the amount of stealth that a thief can get simply by using shadow refuge, we have to burn an elite, another stealth skill, and be traited for PU. If you really think those should be nerfed, then you’ll surely agree that SR should only give 8s maximum, and the radius of the skill should be dropped by 25%.

Yea if you took the time to read any of my posts you would see a recurring theme of me constantly mentioning that SA is OP (which adds to stealth duration) and that thieves can be just as annoying in this concept – the only distinction I made is simply that mesmers can enter stealth in much safer locations, where as thieves either sit in a defined spot (SR location) or black powder >> HS through or swap + SB-2 (we of course, just like mesmers, have access to a couple instant stealth options >> e.g. spec’d steal, and/or utils).

I’m glad you were amused nonetheless.

docMed.7692:

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

I’d just love to see mass/PU get nerfed a bit in duration (down to 6 seconds or so) to keep players not in stealth from simply wasting all evades/random dodges trying to predict when the burst/shatter is coming.

This is amusingly hypocritical. If you think an elite skill with a 90s cooldown and an enormous 1.75 second channel that gives 5s base stealth needs to be nerfed, you’re out of your mind when thief can get even more stealth on a lower cooldown without trait investment or a long channel by just dropping shadow refuge. Yes, you can be knocked out, so try dodging next time.

In order to reach the amount of stealth that a thief can get simply by using shadow refuge, we have to burn an elite, another stealth skill, and be traited for PU. If you really think those should be nerfed, then you’ll surely agree that SR should only give 8s maximum, and the radius of the skill should be dropped by 25%.

Yea if you took the time to read any of my posts you would see a recurring theme of me constantly mentioning that SA is OP (which adds to stealth duration) and that thieves can be just as annoying in this concept – the only distinction I made is simply that mesmers can enter stealth in much safer locations, where as thieves either sit in a defined spot (SR location) or black powder >> HS through or swap + SB-2 (we of course, just like mesmers, have access to a couple instant stealth options >> e.g. spec’d steal, and/or utils).

I’m glad you were amused nonetheless.

As I had already said, shadow refuge does what I described without any trait investment, SA is not part of my argument. It does all those things, and yet you simply call it ‘annoying’ instead of calling for nerfs to it.

Why is burning a 90s cd elite along with another stealth skill while also traiting PU op but simply dropping SR and standing in it for 3 seconds isn’t?

Ah right, because SR is a thief skill, and thief skills are never op obviously.

There already was a thread discussing about a thef \mesmer ways to get in stealth. Both class have the same number of non(hard)counterable ways = 2.
Mesmer has decoy and torch 4th (pays utility slot and weapons slot with bounded mediocre(?) phantasm)
Thief has blinding powder and steal traited with hidden thief (pays utility slot and trait/line slot, though other 2 traits can’t compete with hidden thief in most builds)
Both mesmer and thief need to cover other sources of stealth (LoS, blind, stealth, etc).
Thief doing non covered BP+HS combo often is a sitting duck as well as mesmer doing non covered MI.

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

I’d just love to see mass/PU get nerfed a bit in duration (down to 6 seconds or so) to keep players not in stealth from simply wasting all evades/random dodges trying to predict when the burst/shatter is coming.

This is amusingly hypocritical. If you think an elite skill with a 90s cooldown and an enormous 1.75 second channel that gives 5s base stealth needs to be nerfed, you’re out of your mind when thief can get even more stealth on a lower cooldown without trait investment or a long channel by just dropping shadow refuge. Yes, you can be knocked out, so try dodging next time.

In order to reach the amount of stealth that a thief can get simply by using shadow refuge, we have to burn an elite, another stealth skill, *and* be traited for PU. If you really think those should be nerfed, then you’ll surely agree that SR should only give 8s maximum, and the radius of the skill should be dropped by 25%.

Yea if you took the time to read any of my posts you would see a recurring theme of me constantly mentioning that SA is OP (which adds to stealth duration) and that thieves can be just as annoying in this concept - the only distinction I made is simply that mesmers can enter stealth in much safer locations, where as thieves either sit in a defined spot (SR location) or black powder >> HS through or swap + SB-2 (we of course, just like mesmers, have access to a couple instant stealth options >> e.g. spec’d steal, and/or utils).

I’m glad you were amused nonetheless.

As I had already said, shadow refuge does what I described without any trait investment, SA is not part of my argument. It does all those things, and yet you simply call it ’annoying’ instead of calling for nerfs to it.

Why is burning a 90s cd elite along with another stealth skill while *also* traiting PU op but simply dropping SR and standing in it for 3 seconds isn’t?

Ah right, because SR is a thief skill, and thief skills are never op obviously.

SA is what allows for thieves to easily reset in a SR (full condi clear, increased stealth duration, constant HP regen [300+/tick], added stealth to both yourself and your target when rezzing)... what are you talking about. Any thief that throws down shadow refuge as a means to simply enter stealth & re-open is already behind significantly in a fight if they don’t have SA. Sure they can escape or dodge around if they’re running acrobatics, but re-opening without getting the condi-clear/full heal would be death in this current meta anyways. Trying to analyze ’skill vs skill’ (as opposed to discussing how the build as a whole functions) is pointless; do you know warriors can axe burst skill for 15k+ without ANY investment? Dang must be OP k-appa!

docMed.7692:

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

I’d just love to see mass/PU get nerfed a bit in duration (down to 6 seconds or so) to keep players not in stealth from simply wasting all evades/random dodges trying to predict when the burst/shatter is coming.

This is amusingly hypocritical. If you think an elite skill with a 90s cooldown and an enormous 1.75 second channel that gives 5s base stealth needs to be nerfed, you’re out of your mind when thief can get even more stealth on a lower cooldown without trait investment or a long channel by just dropping shadow refuge. Yes, you can be knocked out, so try dodging next time.

In order to reach the amount of stealth that a thief can get simply by using shadow refuge, we have to burn an elite, another stealth skill, and be traited for PU. If you really think those should be nerfed, then you’ll surely agree that SR should only give 8s maximum, and the radius of the skill should be dropped by 25%.

Yea if you took the time to read any of my posts you would see a recurring theme of me constantly mentioning that SA is OP (which adds to stealth duration) and that thieves can be just as annoying in this concept – the only distinction I made is simply that mesmers can enter stealth in much safer locations, where as thieves either sit in a defined spot (SR location) or black powder >> HS through or swap + SB-2 (we of course, just like mesmers, have access to a couple instant stealth options >> e.g. spec’d steal, and/or utils).

I’m glad you were amused nonetheless.

As I had already said, shadow refuge does what I described without any trait investment, SA is not part of my argument. It does all those things, and yet you simply call it ‘annoying’ instead of calling for nerfs to it.

Why is burning a 90s cd elite along with another stealth skill while also traiting PU op but simply dropping SR and standing in it for 3 seconds isn’t?

Ah right, because SR is a thief skill, and thief skills are never op obviously.

SA is what allows for thieves to easily reset in a SR (full condi clear, increased stealth duration, constant HP regen [300+/tick], added stealth to both yourself and your target when rezzing)… what are you talking about. Any thief that throws down shadow refuge as a means to simply enter stealth & re-open is already behind significantly in a fight if they don’t have SA. Sure they can escape or dodge around if they’re running acrobatics, but re-opening without getting the condi-clear/full heal would be death in this current meta anyways. Trying to analyze ‘skill vs skill’ (as opposed to discussing how the build as a whole functions) is pointless; do you know warriors can axe burst skill for 15k+ without ANY investment? Dang must be OP k-appa!

If stealth without lots of condie clear and healing isn’t op, then explain to me why you called for a nerf to mass invis + PU just now?

You said “to keep players not in stealth from simply wasting all evades/random dodges trying to predict when the burst/shatter is coming”.

None of that has anything to do with heals or condition removal, just pure duration. So why is that op on a Mesmer but balanced on a thief, even when the thief can do it more often with less investment?

You’re obviously arguing with an enormous double standard in favor of thieves, even if you’re not aware of it. The rest of us can see it plain as day though. Every single argument you’ve used as to why thief stuff isn’t OP could be applied to Mesmer stuff as well, but you don’t. You call for nerfs to Mesmer instead, because you’re blatantly biased.

docMed.7692:

SA is what allows for thieves to easily reset in a SR (full condi clear, increased stealth duration, constant HP regen [300+/tick], added stealth to both yourself and your target when rezzing)… what are you talking about. Any thief that throws down shadow refuge as a means to simply enter stealth & re-open is already behind significantly in a fight if they don’t have SA. Sure they can escape or dodge around if they’re running acrobatics, but re-opening without getting the condi-clear/full heal would be death in this current meta anyways. Trying to analyze ‘skill vs skill’ (as opposed to discussing how the build as a whole functions) is pointless; do you know warriors can axe burst skill for 15k+ without ANY investment? Dang must be OP k-appa!

I’m sorry, but…how much of what you just cited as essential to thief stealth is actually available to quick Mesmer stealth? The Prestige, traited, clears all of 1 condition.
Stealthing does not heal the mesmer, and it barely clears any condis. The boons PU grants are rather insignificant, with Aegis being the only boon that might make up some of the difference. Mesmers do not gain extra damage coming out of stealth as thieves do.

You’re lambasting the idea of a thief using SR without SA, but…Mesmers don’t have SA.

I’ve said repeatedly that SA is stupid on thieves lol (and that’s what makes their skills like SR/insta stealths super OP). I’m sorry that I didn’t come to the Mesmer forums and create a Shadow Arts is dumb on thieves thread?

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

SA is what allows for thieves to easily reset in a SR (full condi clear, increased stealth duration, constant HP regen [300+/tick], added stealth to both yourself and your target when rezzing)... what are you talking about. Any thief that throws down shadow refuge as a means to simply enter stealth & re-open is already behind significantly in a fight if they don’t have SA. Sure they can escape or dodge around if they’re running acrobatics, but re-opening without getting the condi-clear/full heal would be death in this current meta anyways. Trying to analyze ’skill vs skill’ (as opposed to discussing how the build as a whole functions) is pointless; do you know warriors can axe burst skill for 15k+ without ANY investment? Dang must be OP k-appa!

I’m sorry, but...how much of what you just cited as essential to thief stealth is actually available to quick Mesmer stealth? The Prestige, traited, clears all of 1 condition.
Stealthing does not heal the mesmer, and it barely clears any condis. The boons PU grants are rather insignificant, with Aegis being the only boon that might make up some of the difference. Mesmers do not gain extra damage coming out of stealth as thieves do.

You’re lambasting the idea of a thief using SR without SA, but...Mesmers don’t have SA.

Thieves don’t have invuls (less you count vamp runes), clones, phantasms, access to reflects (short of a terrible utils/elites that nobody uses and/or warrior steal) not to mention they can’t 1-shot burst a single class out of stealth (unless they catch another glass class like thief/mes with no util’s up or spec a gimmicky build that is useless in a majority of scenarios). No thief runs +power on reveal.. lol?

docMed.7692:

I’ve said repeatedly that SA is stupid on thieves lol (and that’s what makes their skills like SR/insta stealths super OP). I’m sorry that I didn’t come to the Mesmer forums and create a Shadow Arts is dumb on thieves thread?

You’re missing the point, repeatedly.

docMed claims: SA is overpowered on Thieves, lots of stealth is overpowered on Mesmers
Fay et al object: Thieves get more stealth than PU Mesmers even without SA, and just as easy.
docMed rebuts: Thieves without SA are wasting their stealth!
Fay et al are confused: But…we just said it’s the same between Mesmers and Thieves without SA…so…why is Mesmer stealth OP if Thieves have the same or better?
docMed misses the point.

docMed.7692:

Thieves don’t have invuls (less you count vamp runes),

They have evades on-demand.

docMed.7692:

clones

Clones provide no defensive benefit, no one is fooled by clones anymore.

docMed.7692:

phantasms,

Don’t survive long enough in pvp to accomplish anything, and would just get shattered before then anyway.

docMed.7692:

access to reflects (short of a terrible utils/elites that nobody uses and/or warrior steal)

I do like me some reflects. Can’t effectively run stealth at the same time, though, or the reflects become a way to counterplay my stealth.

docMed.7692:

not to mention they can’t 1-shot burst any class out of stealth (unless they catch another glass class like thief/mes with no util’s up).

Neither can mesmers. Try to keep up, we just got nerfed.

docMed.7692:

No thief runs +power on reveal.. lol?

What, exactly, do you think Backstab is? Are you under the impression that mesmers gain extra damage to shatter coming out of stealth? Mesmers get no extra benefit from coming out of stealth, but thieves do. That’s kind of why backstab is scary and so much thought is put into how you might avoid the backstab.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

I’ve said repeatedly that SA is stupid on thieves lol (and that’s what makes their skills like SR/insta stealths super OP). I’m sorry that I didn’t come to the Mesmer forums and create a Shadow Arts is dumb on thieves thread?

You’re missing the point, repeatedly.

docMed claims: SA is overpowered on Thieves, lots of stealth is overpowered on Mesmers
Fay et al object: Thieves get more stealth than PU Mesmers even without SA, and just as easy.
docMed rebuts: Thieves without SA are wasting their stealth!
Fay et al are confused: But…we just said it’s the same between Mesmers and Thieves without SA…so…why is Mesmer stealth OP if Thieves have the same or better?
docMed misses the point.

You’re recounting it entirely inaccurately & skewing it towards your perspective. Fay stated SR by itself was an OP skill; which is entirely untrue. In the current meta, not speccing SA and just throwing down SR is useless and only serves as an escape (not to re-open on a target, which is the opposite of what mesmers do – they will Mass to simply wait/setup for a burst).

The main thing you’re missing here is you’re assuming I’m posting from the perspective of a thief (I have 8 80’s, 4500 hours+ and play mesmer, thief, warrior, ele, ranger, necro [not guard too much]) in PvP. Thief vs Mes is well balanced, and I actually like the balance of how thief is in many matches (short of a couple things like double steal >> fear on necro for example), but Mesmer is definitely the apex in +1’ing fights at the moment and 10 seconds with MI is far too much (should be 6 imo).

docMed.7692:

Thieves don’t have invuls (less you count vamp runes),

Has zero bearing on burst from stealth.

docMed.7692:

clones, phantasms, access to reflects (short of a terrible utils/elites that nobody uses and/or warrior steal)

Has zero bearing on burst from stealth.

docMed.7692:

not to mention they can’t 1-shot burst a single class out of stealth (unless they catch another glass class like thief/mes with no util’s up or spec a gimmicky build that is useless in a majority of scenarios). No thief runs +power on reveal.. lol?

Mesmer can’t 1-shot any class from stealth either unless it’s a glass spec. You must have missed the memo, Anet nerfed our burst so that it’s not as high as before

I appreciate your attempts at misdirection and outright distortion of facts, but it won’t help your argument.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Thieves don’t have invuls (less you count vamp runes),

They have evades on-demand.

docMed.7692:

clones

Clones provide no defensive benefit, no one is fooled by clones anymore.

docMed.7692:

phantasms,

Don’t survive long enough in pvp to accomplish anything, and would just get shattered before then anyway.

docMed.7692:

access to reflects (short of a terrible utils/elites that nobody uses and/or warrior steal)

I do like me some reflects. Can’t effectively run stealth at the same time, though, or the reflects become a way to counterplay my stealth.

docMed.7692:

not to mention they can’t 1-shot burst any class out of stealth (unless they catch another glass class like thief/mes with no util’s up).

Neither can mesmers. Try to keep up, we just got nerfed.

docMed.7692:

No thief runs +power on reveal.. lol?

What, exactly, do you think Backstab is? Are you under the impression that mesmers gain extra damage to shatter coming out of stealth? Mesmers get no extra benefit from coming out of stealth, but thieves do. That’s kind of why backstab is scary and so much thought is put into how you might avoid the backstab.

Backstab hits for 7k on glass (at most) on a meta DP build; so let’s say you land a perfect open (mug + backstab >> heartseeker) and the enemy just sits there for the 3-4 seconds it would take; you can dump around 11k on a pure glass class (which is great, I don’t have any problems on glass vs glass – that’s a strong number). Mesmers however can aoe shatter/boon clear and further burst at a higher rate on a single target and when you’re not a primary stealthing class (see: warrior, ele, ranger, guardian, necro, engi) it becomes a guessing game to when a Mesmer is throwing out his burst. Thieves do not enter SR to simply pop out and instantly gib you – they go in it defensively and/or for a reset. Mesmers will use it for the same concept, but if you think any thief is throwing down SR to just pop-out in a few seconds and insta-gib you, well then you already were far behind in the fight at that point and the thief decided it would be quick/worth the risk.

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

Thieves don’t have invuls (less you count vamp runes),

Has zero bearing on burst from stealth.

docMed.7692:

clones, phantasms, access to reflects (short of a terrible utils/elites that nobody uses and/or warrior steal)

Has zero bearing on burst from stealth.

docMed.7692:

not to mention they can’t 1-shot burst a single class out of stealth (unless they catch another glass class like thief/mes with no util’s up or spec a gimmicky build that is useless in a majority of scenarios). No thief runs +power on reveal.. lol?

Mesmer can’t 1-shot any class from stealth either unless it’s a glass spec. You must have missed the memo, Anet nerfed our burst so that it’s not as high as before

I appreciate your attempts at misdirection and outright distortion of facts, but it won’t help your argument.

Rangers, Ele’s (yep even DD) & any glass build can definitely get 1-shot - I do it and see it happen all the time; not sure what you’re talking about.

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

Thieves don’t have invuls (less you count vamp runes),

Has zero bearing on burst from stealth.

docMed.7692:

clones, phantasms, access to reflects (short of a terrible utils/elites that nobody uses and/or warrior steal)

Has zero bearing on burst from stealth.

docMed.7692:

not to mention they can’t 1-shot burst a single class out of stealth (unless they catch another glass class like thief/mes with no util’s up or spec a gimmicky build that is useless in a majority of scenarios). No thief runs +power on reveal.. lol?

Mesmer can’t 1-shot any class from stealth either unless it’s a glass spec. You must have missed the memo, Anet nerfed our burst so that it’s not as high as before

I appreciate your attempts at misdirection and outright distortion of facts, but it won’t help your argument.

You’re right… it does have zero bearing on burst from stealth; but you started saying how limited mesmers are in stealth, but those tools I just listed are what fill your gaps in ‘not having as much stealth as thieves’.

docMed.7692:

You’re recounting it entirely inaccurately & skewing it towards your perspective. Fay stated SR by itself was an OP skill;

This is a lie. What I did was take your exact argument from a post you had just made, and applied it to SR. You have reasons for MI with PU being op. I took those same reasons and applied them to SR, and resulted in the same conclusion. You didn’t like that ofc, and so have spent the past hour trying to lead the discussion away from that flaw in your “logic”.

docMed.7692:

In the current meta, not speccing SA and just throwing down SR is useless and only serves as an escape (not to re-open on a target, which is the opposite of what mesmers do – they will Mass to simply wait/setup for a burst).

Let me tell you a secret.

Thieves use SR offensively just like mesmers use MI offensively.

I know, hard to believe, and it’s a tough concept to understand, but it’s actually true.

docMed.7692:

skewing it towards your perspective.

kitten right I am, because you’re missing that perspective completely.

docMed.7692:

Fay stated SR by itself was an OP skill; which is entirely untrue. In the current meta, not speccing SA and just throwing down SR is useless and only serves as an escape (not to re-open on a target, which is the opposite of what mesmers do – they will Mass to simply wait/setup for a burst).

Incorrect, Fay does not believe SR is OP, he’s drawing a straight line between your strange insistence that Mesmer stealth is OP but SR is not, when SR provides more stealth with equivalent caveats (SR untraited forces waiting in an area for 4s to get 11s stealth and some healing as a utility skill on a 60s cooldown, MI traited forces 1.75s channel to get 10s of stealth and some boons as an elite skill on a 90s cooldown).
All benefits of MI to a mesmer are roughly equivalent to the benefits a thief enjoys from SR, at a lower build opportunity cost. Yet you say MI traited is OP, but SR untraited is not because without “full healing” and extra “condi cleanse”, neither of which things Mesmer gets from MI, Thieves can’t reopen the fight but mesmers somehow can.
That kind of myopia is just a little nuts at this point.

docMed.7692:

The main thing you’re missing here is you’re assuming I’m posting from the perspective of a thief (I have 8 80’s, 4500 hours+ and play mesmer, thief, warrior, ele, ranger, necro [not guard too much]) in PvP.

No, I’m assuming you have a strange bias against mesmer stealth that you don’t have against thief stealth. I don’t give a rat’s kitten what you actually play, I’m calling the logic as I see it.
I have my own shortcomings to deal with in pvp and elsewhere, yours are utterly irrelevant to me.

docMed.7692:

Thief vs Mes is well balanced, and I actually like the balance of how thief is in many matches (short of a couple things like double steal >> fear on necro for example), but Mesmer is definitely the apex in +1’ing fights at the moment and 10 seconds with MI is far too much (should be 6 imo).

This is exactly the problem, your claim of 10s as too much has no substantiation, and runs counter to your expressed view that untraited Shadow Refuge is not OP, since SR untraited still provides MORE stealth!

So… I’m kinda late to the party, but Bountiful Disillusionment is one of our best grandmasters period.

:D

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

You’re recounting it entirely inaccurately & skewing it towards your perspective. Fay stated SR by itself was an OP skill;

This is a lie. What I did was take your exact argument from a post you had just made, and applied it to SR. You have reasons for MI with PU being op. I took those same reasons and applied them to SR, and resulted in the same conclusion. You didn’t like that ofc, and so have spent the past hour trying to lead the discussion away from that flaw in your “logic”.

docMed.7692:

In the current meta, not speccing SA and just throwing down SR is useless and only serves as an escape (not to re-open on a target, which is the opposite of what mesmers do – they will Mass to simply wait/setup for a burst).

Let me tell you a secret.

Thieves use SR offensively just like mesmers use MI offensively.

I know, hard to believe, and it’s a tough concept to understand, but it’s actually true.

I’ve already said in posts repeatedly that thieves use SR offensively… but it’s only because they’re ahead in a fight and speeding up the victory they already see; which means you were out-played significantly and/or a thief +1’d a fight and decided to blow his wad.

docMed.7692:

I’ve already said in posts repeatedly that thieves use SR offensively… but it’s only because they’re ahead in a fight and speeding up the victory they already see; which means you were out-played significantly and/or a thief +1’d a fight and decided to blow his wad.

And what is it about mesmers that makes them do things differently?
We’ve already explained (without rebuttal) that the two skills are roughly equivalent in benefits and drawbacks, so why would mesmers not be using theirs the same way?

docMed.7692:

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

You’re recounting it entirely inaccurately & skewing it towards your perspective. Fay stated SR by itself was an OP skill;

This is a lie. What I did was take your exact argument from a post you had just made, and applied it to SR. You have reasons for MI with PU being op. I took those same reasons and applied them to SR, and resulted in the same conclusion. You didn’t like that ofc, and so have spent the past hour trying to lead the discussion away from that flaw in your “logic”.

docMed.7692:

In the current meta, not speccing SA and just throwing down SR is useless and only serves as an escape (not to re-open on a target, which is the opposite of what mesmers do – they will Mass to simply wait/setup for a burst).

Let me tell you a secret.

Thieves use SR offensively just like mesmers use MI offensively.

I know, hard to believe, and it’s a tough concept to understand, but it’s actually true.

I’ve already said in posts repeatedly that thieves use SR offensively… but it’s only because they’re ahead in a fight and speeding up the victory they already see; which means you were out-played significantly and/or a thief +1’d a fight and decided to blow his wad.

Let me be more clear.

Mesmers use MI in the exact same way that thieves use SR; both offensively and defensively, for a burst in a fight or for a fast +1. Any attempt to say otherwise is pure lunacy.

I also enjoy you trying to ignore that I took your ‘mesmer is op’ arguments and applied them to thief instead.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

skewing it towards your perspective.

kitten right I am, because you’re missing that perspective completely.

docMed.7692:

Fay stated SR by itself was an OP skill; which is entirely untrue. In the current meta, not speccing SA and just throwing down SR is useless and only serves as an escape (not to re-open on a target, which is the opposite of what mesmers do - they will Mass to simply wait/setup for a burst).

Incorrect, Fay does not believe SR is OP, he’s drawing a straight line between your strange insistence that Mesmer stealth is OP but SR is not, when SR provides more stealth with equivalent caveats (SR untraited forces waiting in an area for 4s to get 11s stealth and some healing as a utility skill on a 60s cooldown, MI traited forces 1.75s channel to get 10s of stealth and some boons as an elite skill on a 90s cooldown).
All benefits of MI to a mesmer are roughly equivalent to the benefits a thief enjoys from SR, at a lower build opportunity cost. Yet you say MI traited is OP, but SR untraited is not because without "full healing" and extra "condi cleanse", neither of which things Mesmer gets from MI, Thieves can’t reopen the fight but mesmers somehow can.
That kind of myopia is just a little nuts at this point.

docMed.7692:

The main thing you’re missing here is you’re assuming I’m posting from the perspective of a thief (I have 8 80’s, 4500 hours+ and play mesmer, thief, warrior, ele, ranger, necro [not guard too much]) in PvP.

No, I’m assuming you have a strange bias against mesmer stealth that you don’t have against thief stealth. I don’t give a rat’s kitten what you actually play, I’m calling the logic as I see it.
I have my own shortcomings to deal with in pvp and elsewhere, yours are utterly irrelevant to me.

docMed.7692:

Thief vs Mes is well balanced, and I actually like the balance of how thief is in many matches (short of a couple things like double steal >> fear on necro for example), but Mesmer is definitely the apex in +1’ing fights at the moment and 10 seconds with MI is far too much (should be 6 imo).

This is exactly the problem, your claim of 10s as too much has no substantiation, and runs counter to your expressed view that untraited Shadow Refuge is not OP, since SR untraited still provides MORE stealth!

I’ve already stated in multiple posts that Mesmers get the ’lack of stealth compared to thief’ filled by other options (aegis if they’re lucky in stealth, reflects, multiple sources of invuls, clones + phantasm misdirection, etc). No duh a thief is better at stealth and no duh thief stealth is also strong (I’d be fine with it slightly tuned down -3 seconds on SR and/or just removing the plus stealth duration in SA line). If you think thieves should have the same raw stealth output as a Mesmer then thieves should have all the additional properties mes have too (portals, 2000+ range MI, invuls, reflects, etc) - clearly they operate differently. To think that they have to offer the same amount of stealth is just insanity and you’re ignoring the other 75% of their components (amongst both thief and Mesmer) that make them good and efficient at what they do. Trying to compare single skills of two very different classes is pointless and why I’ve constantly been saying you have to take a look at the entire build. I mention in my original post that I believe everything a Mesmer currently has at their disposal is nice (in fact I would actually like their burst tuned up slightly on sword) and that they need to tweak how MI/PU operate. I would also be completely fine with stealth duration on thieves toned down - to the same level as Mesmer? No, of course not.

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

You’re recounting it entirely inaccurately & skewing it towards your perspective. Fay stated SR by itself was an OP skill;

This is a lie. What I did was take your exact argument from a post you had just made, and applied it to SR. You have reasons for MI with PU being op. I took those same reasons and applied them to SR, and resulted in the same conclusion. You didn’t like that ofc, and so have spent the past hour trying to lead the discussion away from that flaw in your "logic".

docMed.7692:

In the current meta, not speccing SA and just throwing down SR is useless and only serves as an escape (not to re-open on a target, which is the opposite of what mesmers do - they will Mass to simply wait/setup for a burst).

Let me tell you a secret.

*Thieves use SR offensively just like mesmers use MI offensively.*

I know, hard to believe, and it’s a tough concept to understand, but it’s actually true.

I’ve already said in posts repeatedly that thieves use SR offensively... but it’s only because they’re ahead in a fight and speeding up the victory they already see; which means you were out-played significantly and/or a thief +1’d a fight and decided to blow his wad.

Let me be more clear.

*Mesmers use MI in the exact same way that thieves use SR; both offensively and defensively, for a burst in a fight or for a fast +1. Any attempt to say otherwise is pure lunacy.*

I also enjoy you trying to ignore that I took your ’mesmer is op’ arguments and applied them to thief instead.

Where exactly am I ignoring - I’m outright discussing with you and commenting... What world is this? Are we speaking English or is there some lost in translation aspect here. You claim I ignore your comments, yet here you are doing just that...

docMed.7692:

I’ve already stated in multiple posts that Mesmers get the ‘lack of stealth compared to thief’ filled by other options (aegis if they’re lucky in stealth, reflects, multiple sources of invuls, clones + phantasm misdirection, etc). No duh a thief is better at stealth and no duh thief stealth is also strong (I’d be fine with it slightly tuned down -3 seconds on SR and/or just removing the stealth duration in SA line). If you think thieves should have the same raw stealth output as a Mesmer then thieves should have all the additional properties mes have too (portals, 2000 range MI, invuls, reflects, etc) – clearly they operate differently. To think that they have to offer the same amount of stealth is just insanity and you’re ignoring the other 75% of their components (amongst both thief and Mesmer) that make them good and efficient at what they do. Trying to compare single skills of two very different classes is pointless and why I’ve constantly been saying you have to take a look at the entire build. I mention in my original post that I believe everything a Mesmer currently has at their disposal is nice (in fact I would actually like their burst tuned up slightly on sword) and that they need to tweak how MI/PU operate. I would also be completely fine with stealth duration on thieves toned down – to the same level as Mesmer? No, of course not.

Don’t declaim me for misquoting you or putting words in your mouth, then turn around and perform the same kind of strawman bull.

I don’t think they should have the same amount of stealth access and I know that they don’t. I’ve done the math, the same math you mocked me earlier for. Thieves have more. SR provides more stealth than MI, at a lower cooldown and as a utility skill instead of an elite, but at equivalent other costs.
That is as it should be.

Thieves have more and better stealth, and that is right and proper.

But your claim that specific mesmer skills are OP and should be cut down when they are at the very worst similar to thief skills that have shorter cooldowns and lower opportunity cost? Ridiculous.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

I’ve already stated in multiple posts that Mesmers get the ‘lack of stealth compared to thief’ filled by other options (aegis if they’re lucky in stealth, reflects, multiple sources of invuls, clones + phantasm misdirection, etc). No duh a thief is better at stealth and no duh thief stealth is also strong (I’d be fine with it slightly tuned down -3 seconds on SR and/or just removing the stealth duration in SA line). If you think thieves should have the same raw stealth output as a Mesmer then thieves should have all the additional properties mes have too (portals, 2000 range MI, invuls, reflects, etc) – clearly they operate differently. To think that they have to offer the same amount of stealth is just insanity and you’re ignoring the other 75% of their components (amongst both thief and Mesmer) that make them good and efficient at what they do. Trying to compare single skills of two very different classes is pointless and why I’ve constantly been saying you have to take a look at the entire build. I mention in my original post that I believe everything a Mesmer currently has at their disposal is nice (in fact I would actually like their burst tuned up slightly on sword) and that they need to tweak how MI/PU operate. I would also be completely fine with stealth duration on thieves toned down – to the same level as Mesmer? No, of course not.

Don’t declaim me for misquoting you or putting words in your mouth, then turn around and perform the same kind of strawman bull.

I don’t think they should have the same amount of stealth access and I know that they don’t. I’ve done the math, the same math you mocked me earlier for. Thieves have more. SR provides more stealth than MI, at a lower cooldown and as a utility skill instead of an elite, but at equivalent other costs.
That is as it should be.

Thieves have more and better stealth, and that is right and proper.

But your claim that specific mesmer skills are OP and should be cut down when they are at the very worst similar to thief skills that have shorter cooldowns and lower opportunity cost? Ridiculous.

It’s not ridiculous when you incorporate all the mechanics mesmers can do along with their current stealth mechanics. A thief standing in the open is always a focused target – I’m 100% certain that any match you play or queue with friends, whenever the thief pops out that is your target. Guaranteed. Clearly it must be because they operate just the same as mesmers and have the same tools.

Either way, sounds like we disagree on the tweaking – I’m calling for 2-4 second shaving on a single skill and you took that concept and QQ’d about thief (I don’t blame you though, they wrecked mesmers for so long it was rather lame). Also, thieves absolutely cannot use SR the same offensive way mesmers use MI; unless you mean thieves are walking up to targets and throwing SR down on them and then immediately opening… which in that case the thief is either bad or already infinitely ahead in the match.

I would be all for shortening the stealth across the board for both thief and Mesmer, so I really don’t get why we’re having this circular discussion where you’re trying to benchmark one class against the other when they clearly operate entirely differently. Saying “we don’t have all the same things thief has” is pointless – I can again point to all the things Mesmer have and say “thieves should have those too!”.