Guild Wars 2

I unfortunately have to leave for the evening though, but I’ll check back to see where this convo. has gone soon enough.

docMed.7692:

Either way, sounds like we disagree on the tweaking – I’m calling for 2-4 second shaving on a single skill and you took that concept and QQ’d about thief (I don’t blame you though, they wrecked mesmers for so long it was rather lame). Also, thieves absolutely cannot use SR the same offensive way mesmers use MI; unless you mean thieves are walking up to targets and throwing SR down on them and then immediately opening… which in that case the thief is either bad or already infinitely ahead in the match.

Bullkitten.
It’s your OP that says essentially “thief stealth got nerfed and so mesmer stealth should too!”
Thief has been involved in this from the beginning, and YOU brought it in.

As far as I’m concerned, the intellectual dishonesty you just displayed shreds whatever benefit of the doubt you might have merited, and I now believe there can be no value to further discussion with you, as you are not coming to this in good faith.

You are wrong, your points are logically invalid and grounded in the first place in a false understanding of the mechanics involved, and I believe Fay and I have made that abundantly clear to outside observers, that will suffice.

Have a good night.

docMed.7692:

Mesmers however can aoe shatter/boon clear and further burst at a higher rate on a single target

Burst at a higher rate then thief? How? MW (main part of mesmer burst) is on 10-12s. Backstab (main part of thief burst) limited by stealth – 3-4s. It is a matter of thief’s weapons choice + iniative/utility management. To add, probably mesmer is more reliant on burst then thief (not touching illusions – squishy, removed on death effect, etc), thief has decent autoattacks to feel gaps.

Um you guys also forgot a very crucial and relevant aspect to the phantasms.

Mesmer auto attack does almost half what other classes do.

The only exception to this is great sword at range which can do about the same as other ranged weapons for other classes, which is rubbish damage unless your a ranger.

Additionally docMed (I really hope that is not inferring you’re a medical doctor) I have done the math on mesmer and thief burst from stealth. The Mesmer can burst a little harder (about 1k damage) if everything goes right however it’s reliant on many things critting and not hitting another target Instead of the intended one.

Thief burst essentially boils down to does backstab crit and whether you have executioner. Thief can then follow it up with a quick auto chain for about 4k damage which brings them ahead of mesmer even if the Mesmer mind stabs.

Also why do you keep saying you think they’re balanced one with each other then only ask for the stealth of one class to be nerfed. If the problem is stealth duration then it’s a problem with both classes and to nerf one class and not the other would essentially make the classes imbalanced?

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Either way, sounds like we disagree on the tweaking - I’m calling for 2-4 second shaving on a single skill and *you took that concept and QQ’d about thief* (I don’t blame you though, they wrecked mesmers for so long it was rather lame). Also, thieves absolutely cannot use SR the same offensive way mesmers use MI; unless you mean thieves are walking up to targets and throwing SR down on them and then immediately opening... which in that case the thief is either bad or already infinitely ahead in the match.

Bullkitten.
It’s your OP that says essentially "thief stealth got nerfed and so mesmer stealth should too!"
Thief has been involved in this from the beginning, and YOU brought it in.

As far as I’m concerned, the intellectual dishonesty you just displayed shreds whatever benefit of the doubt you might have merited, and I now believe there can be no value to further discussion with you, as you are not coming to this in good faith.

You are wrong, your points are logically invalid and grounded in the first place in a false understanding of the mechanics involved, and I believe Fay and I have made that abundantly clear to outside observers, that will suffice.

Have a good night.

I’ve again already explained to you the title (I love our circular conversations where you keep bringing up points that have already been refuted /snooze) and simply because you interpret it as a ’thief got nerfed so should mes’ that is still factually incorrect. If you want to interpret the title verbatim (which is a pretty funny way to rest your entire logic of discussion on): technically it is; thief got nerfed in stealth duration long ago, and arenanet recently decided to increase stealth duration of the mesmer so it can now function similar to how perma-stealth DP used to be hated and functioned back in the day (e.g. reset as it sees fit, burst unpredictably, etc) and thus the mesmer can now dawn the title in a similar manner - You are the one who continuously bring up thief and QQ’s about it as a comparison. Simply stating something is logically flawed by only bringing your opinion into it is quite hillarious; not to mention the fact you’ve completely ignored every comment I continuously make about mesmer stealth duration + their mechanics as a class is how it should be evaluated (not stealth duration of X class vs stealth duration of Y class) - care to address that point for me with your ever inflated ego (I mean ’logic’)?

apharma.3741:

Mesmer auto attack does almost half what other classes do.

That’s funny, because I think I actually said about 10 posts back that Mesmer sword damage needs a buff /facepalm. Thanks for being caught up on the thread though.

Edit first, because I forgot to reply:

maeggle.6021:

maeggle.6021:

Thieves haven’t been top-tier fighters for a long time now.

Thieves have been a value to teams since the beginning of this game. and with the elite spec soon, even more so.

You may want to reread what I wrote and what you replied. That’s two completely different things to discuss. While I agree on you that thieves can have a big impact on Conquest matches, it’s not because they are great fighters on their own, hence why they are usually just used to +1. when they aren’t busy decapping an unoccupied node or getting a map buff. Their damage is laughable compared to that of all the other professions’ meta and occasionally played builds (not counting in bunker guard or clerics ele, ofc).

msalakka.4653:

I am going to guess balanced builds requiring loads of skill and intricate gameplay, such as d/d ele, cele necro, and everyone’s favorite, burn guard.

Neither. Want to roll again?

denis.9487:

So tired of the last paragraph. If by unbearable or imbalanced you mean Mesmer actually is on par with other classes besides burning ele. Mesmer is in a good place that needs some fine tuning. Still waiting to see the Mesmer represented and dominating at a higher level.

Also really tired of your last paragraph. Mesmer was used in every ESL weekly by at least two teams (as far as I remember, ymmv). Two teams ran mesmers during WTS, the other two teams also have pretty good mesmer alt players, who play on mesmer frequently.
Besides, it’s a strawman argument. PvP in this game should never be just balanced on what the highest level teams currently run. Arenanet hasn’t brought up #esports by themselves for quite some time. Actually, with leagues and Stronghold they emphasize on and encourage more casual and mid-tier players to participate in the game’s PvP contents. It should be of priority for them to also consider what provides fun and what does not.

I really know how / when to anticipate mesmer bursts; I know mostly any spell animations and tells, have trained to get used to rotations and patterns, etc. I even don’t argue about stealth, because it is not a problem in itself in my opinion. What I think is the main culprit about mesmers atm is, that with IP baseline they get the defensive shatter skills for free for (i.e. at least one short invuln and an interrupt). This usually is accompanied by boon hate (protection and stability is pretty much useless here), fast vuln stacking, punishing interrupts (okay, we may agree that’s what the archetype of the profession is about) & stuns, strong aoe and range damage, strong defensive boon stacking (when running staff or PU), a very strong unblockable and bouncing spell on short cooldown that also stacks might (because Arenanet seems to be unable to distinguish projectile absorption from reflection – was fun back in the days to get your own clone when reflecting Mirror Blade) which renders countdown-blocks like aegis and some shield skills useless, stupid AI (which is equally frustrating for mesmers and their opponents because sometimes a shattered clone runs after you for 5+ seconds just to get off that additional 1 second daze) as well as instant interrupts which also can trigger Chaotic Interrupt (at least no PU with that) – must feel very rewarding to interrupt auto attacks for that juicy 2 second immob without an ICD…
Mesmer can stuff all of that in one build (except for the lockout between PU and CI). Combined it’s not even annoying anymore, it’s just no fun. Fun, which should be the main focus for a multiplayer and social game, is very important to keep most players engaged in your game and game modes.

Most importantly, a decent shatter combo delivers more damage than a mug + backstab + auto chain in equal time, of which most is AoE in a 240 radius (equals the size of the side cap nodes). It’s not tied to engaging from stealth, just helps to setup the stun / immobilize, and it also benefits from the above mentioned vuln stacks and partly from shattered boons. You don’t lose damage potential when you don’t use stealth, which enables the mesmer to use its stealth mostly defensively and occasionally offensively.
A thief that’s forced into stealth for his defense usually has a very hard time to recover on the offense and also are more affected by movement impairing conditions (and more prone of getting hit by condition application because of their reliance on melee damage with the occasional port and shadow steps), while mesmers usually still have at least one more invuln, aegis, protection (mostly staff or PU), more instant interrupts and more boon hate.
Also positioning is less relevant to actual damage done (except for GS AA, for which the reliable sigil procs are more important than the skill effect itself), enabling the mesmer to kite far more than any other of the prominent burst-enabled professions.

Please explain to me how that’s fun to fight, all stacked in one build. Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see any relevant tradeoffs in running shatter / lockdown mesmers atm.

Mak.2657:

docMed.7692:

Mesmers however can aoe shatter/boon clear and further burst at a higher rate on a single target

Burst at a higher rate then thief? How? MW (main part of mesmer burst) is on 10-12s. Backstab (main part of thief burst) limited by stealth – 3-4s. It is a matter of thief’s weapons choice + iniative/utility management. To add, probably mesmer is more reliant on burst then thief (not touching illusions – squishy, removed on death effect, etc), thief has decent autoattacks to feel gaps.

You’re bringing in cooldown durations in a discussion about burst…? Do you understand what ‘burst’ means as opposed to ‘sustained dps’? Just wow…

Dude, I just cited you. And yes, CDs are relevant here. Why I should think opposite?..
Or you think backstab without mug is not a burst? Or what?
1. Thief has better sustained dps – good AAs doing most part of work here (not touching mesm illusions dps part again).
2. Thief has potentially faster burst rate because of CDs.
3. Thief burst has lower numbers, but probably it is compensated(overcompensated in numbrs? din’t check with math) by 2 paragraphs above. It is just what differs mesmer from thief.

Mak.2657:

Dude, I just cited you. And yes, CDs are relevant here. Why I should think opposite?..
Or you think backstab without mug is not a burst? Or what?

Rate = how often you can do something, but he doesn’t apparently remember that he used that word. Or conveniently forgot. Just take my advice and let him rattle on to himself.

Mak.2657:

Dude, I just cited you. And yes, CDs are relevant here. Why I should think opposite?..
Or you think backstab without mug is not a burst? Or what?
1. Thief has better sustained dps - good AAs doing most part of work here.
2. Thief has potentially faster burst rate baecause of CDs.

You should try stealth spamming/opening as a thief; you can do 1 full rotation and then you’re out of initiative if you try it again not to mention mug is of course not even up and this is further assuming the thief is just running around the whole time with nobody focusing him... that happens all the time, "Hey glass thief is out, everyone ignore him and just let him do the same rotation 2-3x!"

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Mak.2657:

Dude, I just cited you. And yes, CDs are relevant here. Why I should think opposite?..
Or you think backstab without mug is not a burst? Or what?

Rate = how often you can do something, but he doesn’t apparently remember that he used that word. Or conveniently forgot. Just take my advice and let him rattle on to himself.

Oh is this the part where you ignore my other ’illogical comments’ and piggyback on someone else?

I will admit though rate definitely is situational among the two classes, but to think thief is simply just backstab >stealth >backstab >stealth over and over means you probably have never actually played the class. Granted thief cooldowns are definitely shorter (hell weapon abilities have none and random util lines can get reset with steal), but the opportunities to safely step out and burst are significantly few and far between (see the million posts I’ve previously mentioned about invuls, reflects, multiple generated targets [e.g. clones/phantasms/etc], and instant stuns that allow mesmers to maintain pressure/burst at a higher rate).

Most of your post is just random whining, but I’ll take this bit:

maeggle.6021:

Most importantly, a decent shatter combo delivers more damage than a mug + backstab + auto chain in equal time,

Really?

Backstab + auto chain = 4.66 skill coeff. Mug is something more, but not listed.

2 clone + ip shatter + 2 hits of mirror blade = 4.24 skill coeff.

In other words, you’re wrong.

maeggle.6021:

of which most is AoE in a 240 radius (equals the size of the side cap nodes).

Technically speaking…yes, most of the damage is aoe. However, a very significant portion is single target: mirror blade and air sigil procs.

maeggle.6021:

It’s not tied to engaging from stealth, just helps to setup the stun / immobilize,

Good luck landing that combo on someone paying attention when you’re not engaging from stealth. Mirror blade is slow and obvious. The only way you can reliably land it without stealth is with a CI proc…which means you’ve already been fighting and got interrupted by the mesmer in order to land it.

maeggle.6021:

and it also benefits from the above mentioned vuln stacks and partly from shattered boons.

Sure, removing boons with the shatter is a pretty key thing that mesmers do, I’ll give you that one.

maeggle.6021:

You don’t lose damage potential when you don’t use stealth, which enables the mesmer to use its stealth mostly defensively and occasionally offensively.

Except you sorta do. As I just said, it’s very difficult to land that shatter combo on someone paying attention if you’re not engaging from stealth. While stealth isn’t an integral part of the mesmer burst like it is for thief, it still remains extremely important.

docMed.7692:

Mak.2657:

Dude, I just cited you. And yes, CDs are relevant here. Why I should think opposite?..
Or you think backstab without mug is not a burst? Or what?
1. Thief has better sustained dps – good AAs doing most part of work here.
2. Thief has potentially faster burst rate baecause of CDs.

You should try stealth spamming/opening as a thief; you can do 1 full rotation and then you’re out of initiative if you try it again not to mention mug is of course not even up and this is further assuming the thief is just running around the whole time with nobody focusing him… that happens all the time, “Hey glass thief is out, everyone ignore him and just let him do the same rotation 2-3x!”

Mak.2657:

It is a matter of thief’s weapons choice + iniative/utility management.

If am playing thief I usually start with stealth prestacking through BP+HS combo. It costs me ~2-3 ini at 1-s before stealth ends. After burst do some aa – have full ini. No need to do even this if traited with hidden thief (I think most/many are). So this is 1st burst. Then BP+HS -> 2nd backstab = costs 9/15 ini. More AA’,s repeat backstab (3rd) with blinding powder, etc.
“thief is just running around the whole time with nobody focusing him.”
Dude, it is how thief (and mesmer to some extent) works – in->burst->out->repeat

But tbh I rarely do so much backstabs because of I don’t need them. Often enemy just allows me spam AA’s, thus I prefer to keep some ini and utilities for emergency cases. And even with traited steal I prefer to stack stealth through BP+HS (if posssible) to keep steal.

Fay.2357:

Most of your post is just random whining, but I’ll take this bit:

Call it whatever you want… It’s just a list of mesmer strengths, backed by explanations, which we currently have to deal with when facing a shatter / lockdown mesmer.

Fay.2357:

Backstab + auto chain = 4.66 skill coeff. Mug is something more, but not listed.

Simple mesmer shatter:

• Mirror Blade: 2 * 0.7 = 1.40
• Mind Wreck: 3 * 0.89 = 2.67
• Mental Anguish: 0.30
• Mind Stab: 1.0 (can be aborted early and still get the full effect)
• Vulnerability: 1 + (3 + 5) * 0.005 = 0.04

adds up to 5.41 in ~1 second. Then we also got at least 8 might stacks from MB and CI (all considering that you interrupted your target before landing the above skills so you benefit from the traits. After that your DPS drops a bit and you either spam autoattack (at least 0.5 over 1.5 seconds), go for another interrupt or swap weapons. At this time a thief used steal, backstabbed (hopefully from a flanking position) and triggered mug. Total over 2.5 seconds is roughly 6.

Let’s compare that to D/P thief:

• Backstab: 2.4
• Mug: 1.7
• AA: 0.56 + 2 * 0.85 = 2.26
• Exposed Weakness: 0.1
• Lead Attack: ~0.05

adds up to roughly 6.51. Here’s the crux with that: It is chained, doesn’t rip nearly as much boons, is more spread out, mug doesn’t crit, except for the AA chain it’s single-target and thieves are running Marauder instead of Zerker. Thus the actual damage output is way lower even against single targets.

Fay.2357:

In other words, you’re wrong.

Still have to prove me wrong.

Fay.2357:

Good luck landing that combo on someone paying attention when you’re not engaging from stealth. Mirror blade is slow and obvious. The only way you can reliably land it without stealth is with a CI proc…which means you’ve already been fighting and got interrupted by the mesmer in order to land it.

I don’t even know what you’re trying to argue here. I never complained about instagibbing from stealth but about fights that may take longer than one MW rotation.
Btw, it’s quite easy for a mesmer to interrupt their target. The benefit is huge both for themselves as well as for their team when they participate in a team fight. At some point the opponent has to activate skills. It’s the mesmer’s fault when they don’t bait dodges enough to land one power lock. There’s still plenty time to cast an iZerker or MB while the target at some point lacks invuln, steady blocks or condition removal / stun breaks.

Fay.2357:

Sure, removing boons with the shatter is a pretty key thing that mesmers do, I’ll give you that one.

It’s a niche aspect which mesmer is strong at. I think it’s a good trait, it’s just too much combined all the other aspects available to mesmer power builds. (which doesn’t mean SC has to go, but other things should be looked at to avoid stacking so many beneficial effects in one specific build)

Fay.2357:

Except you sorta do. As I just said, it’s very difficult to land that shatter combo on someone paying attention if you’re not engaging from stealth. While stealth isn’t an integral part of the mesmer burst like it is for thief, it still remains extremely important.

So you’re trying to tell me that you have to abuse a kittened up mechanic which lacks serious counterplay except for playing guessing games, to be able to play mesmer effectively. That would make the profession even more broken in its core design if that was the case.

Luckily, I can tell you that some mesmers are able to setup their stun + damage chains without heavily relying on stealth, and they still do very well. An ele can mitigate pretty much all the Mind Wrack shatters, that’s true. But it’s also quite easy to lock even those down before initiating your actual damage chains. You just have to play the patient game a bit, which you’re able to, thanks to all the defensive abilities mentioned earlier. Anything else probably lacks the neccessary access to vigor and evade-skills.

Mind Stab is too slow for your burst, especially if you want to Mirror Blade and Dodge beforehand to get your 3 clone shatter.

docMed.7692:

apharma.3741:

Mesmer auto attack does almost half what other classes do.

That’s funny, because I think I actually said about 10 posts back that Mesmer sword damage needs a buff /facepalm. Thanks for being caught up on the thread though.

Thanks for not understanding why it can’t happen. Again I really hope you’re not a medical doctor as all you have demonstrated in this thread is a complete lack of logical thought or deductive reasoning.

I said (and you quoted it) that sword auto does half what other classes do, I wasn’t complaining, I was clarifying. This because it is balanced against the presence of phantasms making up for the auto being low.

Mesmer sword can’t have a buff without rebalancing the entire class in terms of damage. /doublefacepalm.

maeggle.6021:

Fay.2357:

Most of your post is just random whining, but I’ll take this bit:

Call it whatever you want… It’s just a list of mesmer strengths, backed by explanations, which we currently have to deal with when facing a shatter / lockdown mesmer.

Fay.2357:

Backstab + auto chain = 4.66 skill coeff. Mug is something more, but not listed.

Simple mesmer shatter:

• Mirror Blade: 2 * 0.7 = 1.40
• Mind Wreck: 3 * 0.89 = 2.67
• Mental Anguish: 0.30
• Mind Stab: 1.0 (can be aborted early and still get the full effect)
• Vulnerability: 1 + (3 + 5) * 0.005 = 0.04

adds up to 5.41 in ~1 second. Then we also got at least 8 might stacks from MB and CI (all considering that you interrupted your target before landing the above skills so you benefit from the traits. After that your DPS drops a bit and you either spam autoattack (at least 0.5 over 1.5 seconds), go for another interrupt or swap weapons. At this time a thief used steal, backstabbed (hopefully from a flanking position) and triggered mug. Total over 2.5 seconds is roughly 6.

Let’s compare that to D/P thief:

• Backstab: 2.4
• Mug: 1.7
• AA: 0.56 + 2 * 0.85 = 2.26
• Exposed Weakness: 0.1
• Lead Attack: ~0.05

adds up to roughly 6.51. Here’s the crux with that: It is chained, doesn’t rip nearly as much boons, is more spread out, mug doesn’t crit, except for the AA chain it’s single-target and thieves are running Marauder instead of Zerker. Thus the actual damage output is way lower even against single targets.

Fay.2357:

In other words, you’re wrong.

Still have to prove me wrong.

Fay.2357:

Good luck landing that combo on someone paying attention when you’re not engaging from stealth. Mirror blade is slow and obvious. The only way you can reliably land it without stealth is with a CI proc…which means you’ve already been fighting and got interrupted by the mesmer in order to land it.

I don’t even know what you’re trying to argue here. I never complained about instagibbing from stealth but about fights that may take longer than one MW rotation.
Btw, it’s quite easy for a mesmer to interrupt their target. The benefit is huge both for themselves as well as for their team when they participate in a team fight. At some point the opponent has to activate skills. It’s the mesmer’s fault when they don’t bait dodges enough to land one power lock. There’s still plenty time to cast an iZerker or MB while the target at some point lacks invuln, steady blocks or condition removal / stun breaks.

Fay.2357:

Sure, removing boons with the shatter is a pretty key thing that mesmers do, I’ll give you that one.

It’s a niche aspect which mesmer is strong at. I think it’s a good trait, it’s just too much combined all the other aspects available to mesmer power builds. (which doesn’t mean SC has to go, but other things should be looked at to avoid stacking so many beneficial effects in one specific build)

Fay.2357:

Except you sorta do. As I just said, it’s very difficult to land that shatter combo on someone paying attention if you’re not engaging from stealth. While stealth isn’t an integral part of the mesmer burst like it is for thief, it still remains extremely important.

So you’re trying to tell me that you have to abuse a kittened up mechanic which lacks serious counterplay except for playing guessing games, to be able to play mesmer effectively. That would make the profession even more broken in its core design if that was the case.

Luckily, I can tell you that some mesmers are able to setup their stun + damage chains without heavily relying on stealth, and they still do very well. An ele can mitigate pretty much all the Mind Wrack shatters, that’s true. But it’s also quite easy to lock even those down before initiating your actual damage chains. You just have to play the patient game a bit, which you’re able to, thanks to all the defensive abilities mentioned earlier. Anything else probably lacks the neccessary access to vigor and evade-skills.

You add a crux to thief burst yet ignore the Mesmer crux? Our burst is tied to paper thin illusions and ai!! If looking at the burst then the thief is higher in a perfect world. Like how you favored the thief crux though.

guys u forgot a thing: BS goes on back, because in front deals half damage.. mesmer does not have any sort of direction to burst
more important, the stealth of mesmer is insta, with a button pressed, the thief’s one is not insta..
after burst u have to consider the survability because if u die after the openeer combo u are useless
i saw so many numbers and so few considerations
you can run berserker then!! more damage

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Quadox.7834:

Dont fix the pledge. It is actually a good trait. No good mesmer currently takes the pledge or the illusions line. For gods sake dont nerf it.

Um, not to be a pedant, but…if no good mesmer currently takes The Pledge, what makes it a good trait?
Wouldn’t 20% cdr instead of 4.5% cdr per second of stealth be just fine, without the twisted stealth incentives it gives right now?

Agreed. Much better.

Sparda.9750:

guys u forgot a thing: BS goes on back, because in front deals half damage.. mesmer does not have any sort of direction to burst
more important, the stealth of mesmer is insta, with a button pressed, the thief’s one is not insta..
after burst u have to consider the survability because if u die after the openeer combo u are useless
i saw so many numbers and so few considerations
you can run berserker then!! more damage

If your trying to say finding the flanks or back is difficult in stealth…… Really?

maeggle.6021:

Simple mesmer shatter:

• Mirror Blade: 2 * 0.7 = 1.40
• Mind Wreck: 3 * 0.89 = 2.67
• Mental Anguish: 0.30
• Mind Stab: 1.0 (can be aborted early and still get the full effect)
• Vulnerability: 1 + (3 + 5) * 0.005 = 0.04

adds up to 5.41 in ~1 second. Then we also got at least 8 might stacks from MB and CI (all considering that you interrupted your target before landing the above skills so you benefit from the traits. After that your DPS drops a bit and you either spam autoattack (at least 0.5 over 1.5 seconds), go for another interrupt or swap weapons. At this time a thief used steal, backstabbed (hopefully from a flanking position) and triggered mug. Total over 2.5 seconds is roughly 6.

Let’s compare that to D/P thief:

• Backstab: 2.4
• Mug: 1.7
• AA: 0.56 + 2 * 0.85 = 2.26
• Exposed Weakness: 0.1
• Lead Attack: ~0.05

adds up to roughly 6.51. Here’s the crux with that: It is chained, doesn’t rip nearly as much boons, is more spread out, mug doesn’t crit, except for the AA chain it’s single-target and thieves are running Marauder instead of Zerker. Thus the actual damage output is way lower even against single targets.

Both meta thief and mesmer run maradeur.

I think you did wrong math.

• Mirror Blade: 2 * 0.7 = 1.40
• Mind Wrack: 3 * 0.775 (2 ill shatter + IP) = 2.32
• Mental Anguish: 0.30 (most questionable trait)
• Mind Stab: 1.0 (usually either MStab or dodge for 2nd clone but not both – to fit 1s; but okm let it be)
• Vulnerability: 6-14 stacks (14 stacks if took domination line) = 0.14*1.5(Domination trait Fragility) = 0.21
  Total = (1.40 + 2.32 * 1.3 + 1) * 1.21 = 6.55
  I don’t take in consideration might from gs2 or fact that 3 vuln stacks less applied for 1st gs2 hit, etc.

Thief:

• Backstab: 2.4
• Mug: 1.5
• AA: 0.56 + 2 * 0.85 = 2.26
• Exposed Weakness: 0.1
• Lead Attack: ~0.1 (1st burst usually 0.15)
  Total = (2.4+1.5+2.26) * 1.1 * 1.1 = 7.45

“At this time a thief used steal, backstabbed (hopefully from a flanking position) and triggered mug. Total over 2.5 seconds is roughly 6.”
Backstab + mug = (2.4 + 1.5) * 1.1(exp weakness) * 1.1(lead attack) = 5.7 in ~ 0.5s

“After that your DPS drops a bit and you either spam autoattack (at least 0.5 over 1.5 seconds)”
A bit?
Gs in melee range (he would be after burst) is 0.5 in 1.4 s = 0.357 skill coeff per second
Thief AA chain ~ 2.24 in 2s = 1.12 skill coeff per second (plus endurance refill and poison application).
Mesmer gs AA to thief dagger AA ratio is 0.357/1.12 ~ 0.32 Three times less. 43% if 300-600 distance. Mesmer sword’s AA so slow (and less dps then thief dagger) so very often you can’t reliably land most proficient 3rd AA chaint hit

Plus:

1. Thief has better sustained dps – good AAs doing most part of work here (not touching mesm illusions dps part again).
2. Thief has potentially faster burst rate because of CDs.
3. Thief burst has lower numbers, but probably it is compensated(overcompensated in numbrs? din’t check with math) by 2 paragraphs above. It is just what differs mesmer from thief.

Sparda.9750:

guys u forgot a thing: BS goes on back, because in front deals half damage.. mesmer does not have any sort of direction to burst
more important, the stealth of mesmer is insta, with a button pressed, the thief’s one is not insta..

Mak.2657:

There already was a thread discussing about a thef \mesmer ways to get in stealth. Both class have the same number of non(hard)counterable ways = 2.
Mesmer has decoy and torch 4th (pays utility slot and weapons slot with bounded mediocre(?) phantasm)
Thief has blinding powder and steal traited with hidden thief (pays utility slot and trait/line slot, though other 2 traits can’t compete with hidden thief in most builds)
Both mesmer and thief need to cover other sources of stealth (LoS, blind, stealth, etc).
Thief doing non covered BP+HS combo often is a sitting duck as well as mesmer doing non covered MI.

Back and sides are elegible for backstab.

Iavra.8510:

Mind Stab is too slow for your burst, especially if you want to Mirror Blade and Dodge beforehand to get your 3 clone shatter.

With a 3+1 Mind Wrack you raise the coefficient from 2.67 to 3.2 ( for the shatter but waste up to 3/4th of a second to deliver additonal damage (your target should be stunned and there’s no need to waste energy), depending on when you actually shatter.
MS ist roughly 1/4 a second to cast when you know how to avoid the aftercast for 1.0 higher damage output. Also it’s more useful to have an additional stun with Harmonious Mantras (which, btw, further raises your overall damage by 0.03 per mantra activation within the effect’s duration).

denis.9487:

You add a crux to thief burst yet ignore the Mesmer crux? Our burst is tied to paper thin illusions and ai!! If looking at the burst then the thief is higher in a perfect world. Like how you favored the thief crux though.

The above mentioned burst isn’t affected by clone health and ai. You literally throw MB in your opponent’s face while they are stunned / immobilized, maybe teleport near them to get the IP proc as well, shatter as soon as the clones are out and that’s it. Really, it’s not that hard to land as you try to convince me.

Again, I want to emphasize on what makes thief backstabs way harder to land: They have to get in range, which either means they are already in your face and are very much affected by any cleaving melee and PbAoE effect, or have to use a gap closer on long cooldowns (steal is an exception, but that’s also their profession mechanic). Getting a flanking hit off requires positional awareness relative to your opponent, which is quite hard if your target is moving all the time. Mesmer shatters are homing and even PbAoE with a 240 radius (agian, that’s the size of a Ring of Fire or that of the side cap nodes), without relative positional benefits. You got the damage baseline from range if you don’t want to get near your opponent. A thief has to get in there and is vulnerable to all the kitten that’s getting thrown down on the spot where they’re supposed to deliver damage.

It sounds like mesmer shatters are “press F1” and not get “2-3 illusions up, don’t let them die then press F1” O.o
It’s not like clones die if someone farts there O.o
“Homing shatters” lol

You operating wrong numbers/ doing wrong math.
With 3 clones +1 IP you raises the coeff from 2 clones + 1 IP:
2.32 to 2.70 without Mental Anguish
2.67 to 3.1 with Mental Anguish
3.01 to 3.51 with Mental Anguish and daze successfully applied

You need to dodge to have 2 clone shatter +1 IP. 1 clone from mirror blade + 1 from dodge. If you precast 1 illusion (like gs4) you show your presence and do not fit in 1s. To do full MB + dodge shatter + MS combo you usually waste more then 1s (1s is stun from CS trait). It is if we are talking about unexpected burst.

maeggle.6021:

Tor have to use a gap closer on long cooldowns (steal is an exception, but that’s also their profession mechanic).

Steal, shadow shot backstab? SS is on 4s CD (if roughly convert ini to cd) .
As I said it is how thief works (in teamfights): jumps in – burst/dps – out – repeat.
Though mesmer can survive few secs more in center of teamfight (due to distortion and blurred frenzy) he is still very glassy. Thief has much more access for those in/outs (mesmer have only blink in meta).

docMed.7692:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Thieves don’t have invuls (less you count vamp runes),

They have evades on-demand.

docMed.7692:

clones

Clones provide no defensive benefit, no one is fooled by clones anymore.

docMed.7692:

phantasms,

Don’t survive long enough in pvp to accomplish anything, and would just get shattered before then anyway.

docMed.7692:

access to reflects (short of a terrible utils/elites that nobody uses and/or warrior steal)

I do like me some reflects. Can’t effectively run stealth at the same time, though, or the reflects become a way to counterplay my stealth.

docMed.7692:

not to mention they can’t 1-shot burst any class out of stealth (unless they catch another glass class like thief/mes with no util’s up).

Neither can mesmers. Try to keep up, we just got nerfed.

docMed.7692:

No thief runs +power on reveal.. lol?

What, exactly, do you think Backstab is? Are you under the impression that mesmers gain extra damage to shatter coming out of stealth? Mesmers get no extra benefit from coming out of stealth, but thieves do. That’s kind of why backstab is scary and so much thought is put into how you might avoid the backstab.

Backstab hits for 7k on glass (at most) on a meta DP build; so let’s say you land a perfect open (mug + backstab >> heartseeker) and the enemy just sits there for the 3-4 seconds it would take; you can dump around 11k on a pure glass class (which is great, I don’t have any problems on glass vs glass – that’s a strong number). Mesmers however can aoe shatter/boon clear and further burst at a higher rate on a single target and when you’re not a primary stealthing class (see: warrior, ele, ranger, guardian, necro, engi) it becomes a guessing game to when a Mesmer is throwing out his burst. Thieves do not enter SR to simply pop out and instantly gib you – they go in it defensively and/or for a reset. Mesmers will use it for the same concept, but if you think any thief is throwing down SR to just pop-out in a few seconds and insta-gib you, well then you already were far behind in the fight at that point and the thief decided it would be quick/worth the risk.

7k on glass my butt. I had a pvp match where this one thief kept one-shotting me with backstabs for over 16k, and recently someone posted a pic where he backstabbed for nearly 21k.

I’m not sure where you got a max of 7 k on glass but you are nowhere near correct on that

He is talking about meta thief. 7k is ok for meta dp build. To do significantly more damage need to be traited & equipped with assasin signet (heh, like CS+ MA + MoD requirements for mesmer).
Though 16k is still too high. Mb you are talking about cloack and dagger + mug + backstab combo?

Mak.2657:

You operating wrong numbers/ doing wrong math.

Yup, never should’ve agreed to enter the math here as it proves useless anyways. Mesmer can use Zerker and has access to more power through might and better damage output via vulnerability, while Thief has to rely on Marauders.

So… I went into the mists and abused the light target golems to prove my point. Both professions on their respective meta builds with vamp runes. Results just for the burst section of the respective combo are included (no dodge for MW wasted). You can add ~3k for thief AA chain and 2k for Mind Stab and / or ~1k for CoF, Wave for the probable heal interrupt, or swap weapons and do whatever.

Mak.2657:

Steal, shadow shot backstab? SS is on 4s CD (if roughly convert ini to cd) .

Shadow Shot only ports you towards your target and can be seen, even when casted from stealth. You can interrupt the damage part of SS to keep your stealth, but the blind really gives anything else away.
Precasting MB spawns it directly at the target when combined with Blink, or you simply walk up to your target (only closer than 240 units range required), stun mid-cast and you’ll sometimes see the numbers you can see in the attached image.

Mak.2657:

Though mesmer can survive few secs more in center of teamfight (due to distortion and blurred frenzy) he is still very glassy.

S/T is okay, but not meta. GS and staff are more probable encounters for obvious reasons: Staff offers many defensive boons and conditions, pseudo-stunbreak and port on low CD, and pulsing AoE interrupts, as well as a very strong illusion.

Thief has to switch to short bow or waste initiative to stealth or HS away to build distance, or they use a long CD utility, while mesmer still has strong area denial and has way more interrupts and defensive boons / skills to keep themselves alive. Also: Single target vs AoE. Also range in team fights. Really, the only thing thieves are currently better at is mobility and on-demand stealth access. Damage and control goes heavily in favour of the mesmer.

Mak.2657:

He is talking about meta thief. 7k is ok for meta dp build. To do significantly more damage need to be traited & equipped with assasin signet (heh, like CS+ MA + MoD requirements for mesmer).
Though 16k is still too high. Mb you are talking about cloack and dagger + mug + backstab combo?

Possibly. I was the recipient of the damage, and didn’t have access to the build; it did seem to be something like that.

So how is the meta thief superior to someone hitting for 16k-21k in one hit?

To get back to the invisble problem:
First of all mesmer is one of my mains and I have to say pu was to strong early then they fixed boons so it was still strong but not as before. And now they give 100% invis duration? WTF?!
That is crazy. Without veil I can stay 45 sec in perma stealth. Yes infight usually you dont chain up that invisible that long. But for hiding in a wvw keep its ridiclous. And infight it’s way to strong as well. You are way to long invsible and also get so many more boons than before due to this change.

So my suggestion: PU should increase stealth by 33% instead of 100%. You can increase mass invsible to 6 sec by default and fail to 4sec.

So weapon and utility trait are are like before that last patch 4sec. And Veil is like currently 4 sec, while mass invisble gives 8 seconds. 2 less than now, 2 more than before the patch. So you can better stealth your team mates.
Compared to shadow refuge which isn’t an elite spell you make still 2 seconds less invsible. (Yeah okay you can make 5 more people invisble, but it’s an elite spell with even higher cd than SR)

Also I’m not sure with the torch trait, that is one of the main reasons why you could chain up invsible that long. But maybe the pu change will already normalize that. If that’s still not the case it should get nerfed as well.

NeroBoron.7285:

To get back to the invisble problem:
First of all mesmer is one of my mains and I have to say pu was to strong early then they fixed boons so it was still strong but not as before. And now they give 100% invis duration? WTF?!
That is crazy. Without veil I can stay 45 sec in perma stealth. Yes infight usually you dont chain up that invisible that long. But for hiding in a wvw keep its ridiclous. And infight it’s way to strong as well. You are way to long invsible and also get so many more boons than before due to this change.

So my suggestion: PU should increase stealth by 33% instead of 100%. You can increase mass invsible to 6 sec by default and fail to 4sec.

So weapon and utility trait are are like before that last patch 4sec. And Veil is like currently 4 sec, while mass invisble gives 8 seconds. 2 less than now, 2 more than before the patch. So you can better stealth your team mates.
Compared to shadow refuge which isn’t an elite spell you make still 2 seconds less invsible. (Yeah okay you can make 5 more people invisble, but it’s an elite spell with even higher cd than SR)

Also I’m not sure with the torch trait, that is one of the main reasons why you could chain up invsible that long. But maybe the pu change will already normalize that. If that’s still not the case it should get nerfed as well.

“You can increase mass invsible to 6 sec by default and fail to 4sec.”’

That’s actually an accurate name for the skill

Add diminishing returns to stacking stealth. Problem solved.

Finer points aside, any class setup that allows you to FullHP -> Death a class without a telegraph is overpowered, plain and simple.

I don’t know why there are paragraphs being written elsewhere defending the above specifically.

An untelegraphed (close-to)instakill is unpleasant to fight, unfair to the recipient and cannot be planned for. It’s just as passive as turret engie and, ironically, is an embellished version of what many mesmers blamed as being unpleasant and unfair to fight.

wins should be the reward of prediction, skillful play and strategy. A class that can simply erase HP bars without at least making its presence known long enough for its opponent to react needs fixing, period.

Morfedel.4165:

Possibly. I was the recipient of the damage, and didn’t have access to the build; it did seem to be something like that.

So how is the meta thief superior to someone hitting for 16k-21k in one hit?

Thief here!

Personally, I like using marauders DA CS Trick DP thief but even with that i tend to max out with a 11k BS so…

A meta thief is superior to one that hits 16~21k in the following ways (please keep in mind that im guessing at the 16~21k build x3);

1. Using berserkers instead of marauders
2. Probably using some form of the signet might build. More extreme versions of this does not have shadow step… or shadow refuge… or even withdraw (uses signet heal) and has 1 stun break that they probably use to feed their burst anyways (ini signet).
3. Instead of SA they probably use CS (so a DA CS Trick build) so no healing in stealth, no condi clear at all

so to get a 21k backstab, the thief will basically… have no heal, 0 stunbreaks, 0 condi clears, no stealth bonuses, no utilities (all fed into getting might), and will have just enough ini after the 21k burst to do bp → hs 1 more time before becoming useless and probably dead :P

The meta build will burst less but more often, won’t die nearly as easily, has much more utility and can act like a res bot if needed.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Finer points aside, any class setup that allows you to FullHP -> Death a class without a telegraph is overpowered, plain and simple.

I haven’t been one-shot by a Mesmer yet, can’t say the same for thief pre-patch. If you want to run glass, don’t whine about being burst down. If you run without condition cleanse, don’t whine about how strong conditions are. If you don’t run a roaming spec, don’t wander in the wilderness by your lonesome smelling flowers. Gear appropriately and you’ll have a more pleasant time, instead of expecting every other class to be nerfed down enough for you to manage facekeyboarding them to death.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Finer points aside, any class setup that allows you to FullHP -> Death a class without a telegraph is overpowered, plain and simple.

I don’t know why there are paragraphs being written elsewhere defending the above specifically.

,An untelegraphed (close-to)instakill is unpleasant to fight unfair to the recipient and cannot be planned for. It’s just as passive as turret engie and, ironically, is an embellished version of what many mesmers blamed as being unpleasant and unfair to fight.

wins should be the reward of prediction, skillful play and strategy. A class that can simply erase HP bars without at least making its presence known long enough for its opponent to react needs fixing, period.

“An untelegraphed (close-to)instakill is unpleasant to fight”

Mirror blade is pretty kitten telegraphed. The damage is fine, it was actually just as high before patch (traited bounce), when mesmers were considered one of the weakest classes. The things that can be considered broken are Daze>Stun and Stealth (PU). Also, blind shatter.

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Finer points aside, any class setup that allows you to FullHP -> Death a class without a telegraph is overpowered, plain and simple.

I don’t know why there are paragraphs being written elsewhere defending the above specifically.

,An untelegraphed (close-to)instakill is unpleasant to fight unfair to the recipient and cannot be planned for. It’s just as passive as turret engie and, ironically, is an embellished version of what many mesmers blamed as being unpleasant and unfair to fight.

wins should be the reward of prediction, skillful play and strategy. A class that can simply erase HP bars without at least making its presence known long enough for its opponent to react needs fixing, period.

“An untelegraphed (close-to)instakill is unpleasant to fight”

Mirror blade is pretty kitten telegraphed. The damage is fine, it was actually just as high before patch (traited bounce), when mesmers were considered one of the weakest classes. The things that can be considered broken are Daze>Stun and Stealth (PU). Also, blind shatter.

I think he meant it’s untelegraphed when the burst comes from stealth.

Noss.4105:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Finer points aside, any class setup that allows you to FullHP -> Death a class without a telegraph is overpowered, plain and simple.

I don’t know why there are paragraphs being written elsewhere defending the above specifically.

,An untelegraphed (close-to)instakill is unpleasant to fight unfair to the recipient and cannot be planned for. It’s just as passive as turret engie and, ironically, is an embellished version of what many mesmers blamed as being unpleasant and unfair to fight.

wins should be the reward of prediction, skillful play and strategy. A class that can simply erase HP bars without at least making its presence known long enough for its opponent to react needs fixing, period.

“An untelegraphed (close-to)instakill is unpleasant to fight”

Mirror blade is pretty kitten telegraphed. The damage is fine, it was actually just as high before patch (traited bounce), when mesmers were considered one of the weakest classes. The things that can be considered broken are Daze>Stun and Stealth (PU). Also, blind shatter.

I think he meant it’s untelegraphed when the burst comes from stealth.

How would you possibly fix this. I guess is opinion is to nerf the damage? If Anet further nerfed Mesmer mind wrack + mirror blade damage, everything that was unique with mesmer is gone. As soon as you took off that torch/decoy skill, the mesmer would be useless. The only decent fix is to nerf stealth.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Finer points aside, any class setup that allows you to FullHP -> Death a class without a telegraph is overpowered, plain and simple.

I don’t know why there are paragraphs being written elsewhere defending the above specifically.

An untelegraphed (close-to)instakill is unpleasant to fight, unfair to the recipient and cannot be planned for. It’s just as passive as turret engie and, ironically, is an embellished version of what many mesmers blamed as being unpleasant and unfair to fight.

wins should be the reward of prediction, skillful play and strategy. A class that can simply erase HP bars without at least making its presence known long enough for its opponent to react needs fixing, period.

Amen.

“But there’s counterplay!”
No, there is not.

Emi.4152:

Morfedel.4165:

Possibly. I was the recipient of the damage, and didn’t have access to the build; it did seem to be something like that.

So how is the meta thief superior to someone hitting for 16k-21k in one hit?

Thief here!

Personally, I like using marauders DA CS Trick DP thief but even with that i tend to max out with a 11k BS so…

A meta thief is superior to one that hits 16~21k in the following ways (please keep in mind that im guessing at the 16~21k build x3);

1. Using berserkers instead of marauders
2. Probably using some form of the signet might build. More extreme versions of this does not have shadow step… or shadow refuge… or even withdraw (uses signet heal) and has 1 stun break that they probably use to feed their burst anyways (ini signet).
3. Instead of SA they probably use CS (so a DA CS Trick build) so no healing in stealth, no condi clear at all

so to get a 21k backstab, the thief will basically… have no heal, 0 stunbreaks, 0 condi clears, no stealth bonuses, no utilities (all fed into getting might), and will have just enough ini after the 21k burst to do bp -> hs 1 more time before becoming useless and probably dead :P

The meta build will burst less but more often, won’t die nearly as easily, has much more utility and can act like a res bot if needed.

Well now compare that to current mesmer builds. Which have tons of burst, stealth, a whole bunch of stun breaks, a pretty decent heal (asuming ether feast) which they can use while in stealth for basicaly no possible interrupt, and a whole bunch of boons while in stealth to help them sustain the fight if anything goes wrong.

Bleh

d/p thief venting about other class having too much stealth now, hehe! /me gets popcorn… “omfg, now how do I counter all that stealth…?”

Saleen Jso.2645:

d/p thief venting about other class having too much stealth now, hehe! /me gets popcorn… “omfg, now how do I counter all that stealth…?”

This thread really did NOT need to be necroed…

This thread didn’t need to exist in the first place tbh.

NeroBoron.7285:

To get back to the invisble problem:
First of all mesmer is one of my mains and I have to say pu was to strong early then they fixed boons so it was still strong but not as before. And now they give 100% invis duration? WTF?!
That is crazy. Without veil I can stay 45 sec in perma stealth. Yes infight usually you dont chain up that invisible that long. But for hiding in a wvw keep its ridiclous. And infight it’s way to strong as well. You are way to long invsible and also get so many more boons than before due to this change.

So my suggestion: PU should increase stealth by 33% instead of 100%. You can increase mass invsible to 6 sec by default and fail to 4sec.

So weapon and utility trait are are like before that last patch 4sec. And Veil is like currently 4 sec, while mass invisble gives 8 seconds. 2 less than now, 2 more than before the patch. So you can better stealth your team mates.
Compared to shadow refuge which isn’t an elite spell you make still 2 seconds less invsible. (Yeah okay you can make 5 more people invisble, but it’s an elite spell with even higher cd than SR)

Also I’m not sure with the torch trait, that is one of the main reasons why you could chain up invsible that long. But maybe the pu change will already normalize that. If that’s still not the case it should get nerfed as well.

I agree with your proposals (although think Veil should be 3s base, so it would increase to 4s with PU).

Torch trait just needs to be flat 20% cooldown, they don’t need to reinvent it tbh.

Fay.2357:

Saleen Jso.2645:

d/p thief venting about other class having too much stealth now, hehe! /me gets popcorn… “omfg, now how do I counter all that stealth…?”

This thread really did NOT need to be necroed…

It wasn’t my intention to necro anything. I’m just calling out the irony in how this thread was kicked off.

Curunen.8729:

NeroBoron.7285:

To get back to the invisble problem:
First of all mesmer is one of my mains and I have to say pu was to strong early then they fixed boons so it was still strong but not as before. And now they give 100% invis duration? WTF?!
That is crazy. Without veil I can stay 45 sec in perma stealth. Yes infight usually you dont chain up that invisible that long. But for hiding in a wvw keep its ridiclous. And infight it’s way to strong as well. You are way to long invsible and also get so many more boons than before due to this change.

So my suggestion: PU should increase stealth by 33% instead of 100%. You can increase mass invsible to 6 sec by default and fail to 4sec.

So weapon and utility trait are are like before that last patch 4sec. And Veil is like currently 4 sec, while mass invisble gives 8 seconds. 2 less than now, 2 more than before the patch. So you can better stealth your team mates.
Compared to shadow refuge which isn’t an elite spell you make still 2 seconds less invsible. (Yeah okay you can make 5 more people invisble, but it’s an elite spell with even higher cd than SR)

Also I’m not sure with the torch trait, that is one of the main reasons why you could chain up invsible that long. But maybe the pu change will already normalize that. If that’s still not the case it should get nerfed as well.

I agree with your proposals (although think Veil should be 3s base, so it would increase to 4s with PU).

Torch trait just needs to be flat 20% cooldown, they don’t need to reinvent it tbh.

In PvP, pu is only broken because there is no tradeoff. Mesmers should have to go illusions for the damage to be enough in a roamer spec. Chaos traitline should be used for other specs. PU is boring to play against though, that’s something to look at.

Yeah chaos with better stealth and some decent minors is absolutely not a trade off against heal on mantra cast, cleanse on heal use, heal and cleanse on shatters or resistance/super speed on glamours or idefender.

I mean, nearly every interrupt build picks PU over CI right? Right? [tumbleweeds]

apharma.3741:

Yeah chaos with better stealth and some decent minors is absolutely not a trade off against heal on mantra cast, cleanse on heal use, heal and cleanse on shatters or resistance/super speed on glamours or idefender.

I mean, nearly every interrupt build picks PU over CI right? Right? [tumbleweeds]

I don’t understand what you are trying to say. PU is better than inspiration, agreed?

Noss.4105:

Quadox.7834:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Finer points aside, any class setup that allows you to FullHP -> Death a class without a telegraph is overpowered, plain and simple.

I don’t know why there are paragraphs being written elsewhere defending the above specifically.

,An untelegraphed (close-to)instakill is unpleasant to fight unfair to the recipient and cannot be planned for. It’s just as passive as turret engie and, ironically, is an embellished version of what many mesmers blamed as being unpleasant and unfair to fight.

wins should be the reward of prediction, skillful play and strategy. A class that can simply erase HP bars without at least making its presence known long enough for its opponent to react needs fixing, period.

“An untelegraphed (close-to)instakill is unpleasant to fight”

Mirror blade is pretty kitten telegraphed. The damage is fine, it was actually just as high before patch (traited bounce), when mesmers were considered one of the weakest classes. The things that can be considered broken are Daze>Stun and Stealth (PU). Also, blind shatter.

I think he meant it’s untelegraphed when the burst comes from stealth.

This.

I don’t understand what:

If you want to run glass, don’t whine about being burst down.

If you run without condition cleanse, don’t whine about how strong conditions are.

Gear appropriately and you’ll have a more pleasant time, instead of expecting every other class to be nerfed down enough for you to manage facekeyboarding them to death.

has anything to do with the above. I didnt even mention anything regarding those points.

Quit drawing arguments out of thin air.

I only have -one- qualm right now. One. I’m not arguing about “hurr I wanna faceroll”, so quit pretending like I am.

Mesmers can now burst from stealth without telegraphs, with damage far above
what thief ever managed over a shorter period. They at one point complained that
this was exactly what made their class hard to play. Apparently its unfair when one
class can do it, but suddenly fair when the Mesmers themselves can, to greater
effect?

Quadox.7834:

apharma.3741:

Yeah chaos with better stealth and some decent minors is absolutely not a trade off against heal on mantra cast, cleanse on heal use, heal and cleanse on shatters or resistance/super speed on glamours or idefender.

I mean, nearly every interrupt build picks PU over CI right? Right? [tumbleweeds]

I don’t understand what you are trying to say. PU is better than inspiration, agreed?

I thought the sarcasm was strong enough but I guess not.

Inspiration is a fantastic line for shatter mesmers that are not doing the decap role as much and gives you a lot more sustain/healing. Is it better in an organised team? Perhaps not depending on how many eles you have healing and cleansing you but in normal PvP or WvW (outside of solo roaming) it is a very tough decision.

Additionally no interrupt build would pick PU over CI unless they had an aversion to getting enormous benefits to interrupts.