Guild Wars 2

so i know quite a few people love it, but i justfind it meh. The conditions are nice, the clone is nice, iWarlocdk is pretty solid not iZerker standard but still pretty decent and Chaos Storm rocks but i just find it that it just doesnt do enough damage.

This is mostly the Auto Attack i kinda hate, low speed and damage is kind of annoying. I find it that if used against say a Camp boss you will RAELY get XP and such form the kill as it just wont do enough damage when you have a decent group(5+) due to the slow auto attack speed, same goes for Dolyaks.

How do you guys use the Staff to get the “most” out of it? I am currently running a GSBleed Condition Build, which obviously uses the Greatsword, it has great damage, a nice Interrupt, Might, Vul, Cripple and the iZerker and it just rocks

My offhand set is Normally Scepter+Pistol/Focus and i have been trying the Staff out and i just cant seem to get that feel that it is worthwhile. In a Zerg, using Chaos Storm and Feedback ROCKS against attackers though ^^

Phase Retreat is basically everything that’s left after the nerf to Chaos Armor. The might and fury coming from the autoattack also come in handy.

/edit: Being good at tagging enemies should never be a criteria when choosing your weapons. While it may not be the case, it makes you look like a mere zergling.

Iavra.8510:

/edit: Being good at tagging enemies should never be a criteria when choosing your weapons. While it may not be the case, it makes you look like a mere zergling.

When i am defending using Chaos Storm and Feedback is VERY useful for the defense of a base, it does alot of damage, confusion and slows down the attack on the door, this isnt about tagging its about defending the keep.

I also tell others to use the siege, i find myself more useful using these along with iZerker against the siege they have rather then sitting on the siege. To me that is more about tagging but actually using skills that slow the attack down, helping protect the door is NOT “zergling”

In a field battle i use Chaos storm on the friendly group and Feedback on the enemy. So again, not very “Zergling” or about tagging, its about using my abilities to belp the situation if its used on a door it means those on the door are getting battered and normally slow down the attack, along with siege attacks on them it can be VERY helpful.

Hell me and 3 other people protected a Tower against a zerg using this same tactic. I would concentrate on using Chaos Storm and Feedback on the enemy 1 ally using AC and the others using AoE attacks at the same time as me – we killed more then half the zerg and the rest ran when back up came.

Power build: Warlock damage scales well and crits for more than 10k with enough conditions. But you use it mostly for defensive/mobility tools and to keep high the pressure. Autoattack damage and chaos storm damage are not that bad.

Condition build: you want to have three clones out or you can forgive the damage. Then the damage is amazing between their autoattack and debilitating dissipation.
Theres a difference between a stack of bleeding (gs) and bleeding/burning/vulnerability (staff) when it comes to cleanse.
Weird but true warlock is less useful here.

Phase retreat is a nice gap opener/closer and using when your target is behind you mess up people.

Yeah it just seems that the auto attack, its just not enough. Sure i am not full zerker or anything but it does like 120 damage, it does LESS damage then ONE tick of Greatsword at the closest range…

1 Bounce of Winds of Chaos = 120damage
1 Tick of Spacial Surge (at closest range, thus lowest damage = 246Damage

Though WoC adds a condition and some times a Boom, Spacial Surge does more damage is faster and ticks 3 times. So its 246DamageX3 Vs 120Damge+ Condition and POSSIBLE boon based on position

The Staff clones are really good, iLock is pretty good, still not iZerker (imo) good. Chaos Armor is VERY meh now its been nerfed. Chaos Storm is nice but could do with some tweaks again in my opinion

Well the thing is that you are trying to compare a Defensive/Support weapon that should be used mostly as a secondary weapon to a full direct damage weapon that is used as a main ranged dmg dealer.

With a condition build I would not trade a 3 staff clones and my wind of chaos situation for a 3 gs clones and spatial surge situation. More conditions, more boons.
When your clones do most of the damage (i swap set if i need torment/confusion/more burning) you really dont care a lot if your autoattack does poor physical damage. Id add thakittens easy to kill people with 20% hp only by spamming wind of chaos (clones are not so reliable while people run).

Once you have three staff clones out and you can apply torment and confusion, most of the time the game its over.

My Sweet Lily.1952:

Well the thing is that you are trying to compare a Defensive/Support weapon that should be used mostly as a secondary weapon to a full direct damage weapon that is used as a main ranged dmg dealer.

Thats the point, this is meant to be our condition 2hand weapon. Yet few conditions Bleeding, Burning, Vul, Chill, Poison, Weakness and 3 of them are on 35second cool down. I wouldnt really consider that very “condition” orientated in my opinion.

Well tbh Staff is a core of al my Power builds, used it in power builds tbh sens september last year. Cant say its “condition wep only”. I think ppl just look to the nr 1 pure dmg to much, why GS seen as a better directdmg wep. As a shatter setup your dmg come first and most from shatters, this is powerbased. The staff generate clones and move you on the field + keep you alive.

Latest Power build use staff:

And a old favorite, cant see why this would be a condition setup, 9k kits ftw.

/Osicat

and what if you are not a shatter build? what if you are a condition build. It just seems that the Greatsword is better at it, GS #2 is great for damage, Vul and Might and it spawns a clone on the target. iZerker > iLock when you take into account the Bleed trait.

Chaos Armor sucks since it got nerfed. Chaos Storm isnt that much “Chaos” wehn its only a few conditions, low damage and few boons though the daze is nice. At range Spacial Surge > Winds of Chaos.

This part of the problem that Scepter has, Anet doesnt know what kind of weapon its meant to be. by “meant” i mean thakittens more suited.

It works because of the clones. If we have three clones out and we have the extra bounce trait, and have an Earth Sigil, then we can put around ten bleeds and lots of burning. But it’s not really much.

Now if we add condition duration it gets better. We can have 15+ bleeds and lots of burns. Great for soloing, but still not much for groups. One, we have the caps, two, we have the whole burn thing and guardians/elementalists which has never been too clear but apparently they jostle for ownership of the burns?

It’s a very complicated and needlessly obscure way of doing things, who knows how long the game was in beta, then 10 months live, and we still limp if we try to use Conditions.

We don’t even have a spammable AoE condition skill like necros and Epidemic, so we need to use our power/crit weapon, the GS, for AoE. Basically just tagging instead of doing real AoE.

the trait only works on us, is it really worth the trait seeing as it doesnt affect clones?

Just a thought that came to my mind this evening while I was experiencing the joys (and annoyances xD) of Arah path 1 (yes I’m aware that this information wasn’t really necessary haha).

Since WoC counts as a projectile (as it can be blocked/reflected by skills that do so with projectiles)… why not add a 20% chance for a projectile finisher to it?

Staff is amazing in my condition build I have been using. I wouldn’t mind if they removed the 1sec CD on condition application but I do love getting Protection from procs now.

@OP:
From a design point of view, Staff, together with Scepter, is subtefuge weapon as opposed to sword & greatsword being intimidation weapons. It means the Staff requires some sort of setup and ramp-up time for optimal efficiency or damage for what it’s worth whereas Sword and Greatsword just scare the kitten out of enemies with overwhelming dps.
I made this comparison between Scepter & Sword. But you can easily find the similarities between Staff and Greatsword. You can check out the dead thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Discussion-Comparing-Between-Sword-Scepter/first#post2343997

GS is a strong power weapon and can be a good condition weapon.
Staff is a strong condition weapon and can be a good power weapon.
I would say the same about sword and scepter.

If you want to run GS with a condi build you do it for some reasons: more (im not even sure if it is, but still) bleeding stacks, more direct damage and chasing abilities.
Remember that you can have those things in a power build and do a LOT more damage, you are trading an amazing direct damage burst for some better ticks of bleeding. I dont think its worth it especially because bleeding and vulnerability are the only conditions on the skill set.
You may have debilitating dissipation and sigils but you can also have those things with staff.
Staff gives you way more condition variety and this is really useful when the opponent use cleanses. It also gives you more mobility and defensive tools at the cost of direct damage but since you run rabid this is not something you should worry about.
With my build i combine scepter/torch conditions with staff clones and a chaos storm. I cant ask more.

While I find the staff odd as a solo weapon unless you want Phase Retreat (and that one is very good, I’d run GS+Staff just for Phase Retreat :P ), I find the staff an extremely powerful support weapon in groups. Lots of might and fury, extra vulnerability, strong added phantasm damage, powerful clones, easy AE buffs which can be used for AE Chaos Armour, superb survivability.

I find the iZerker to be AMAZING at stacking bleeds, without the Sigil i can stack more bleeds uing the Greatsword then i can with the staff which has the Sigil

It Just seems Anet could better design the Staff, i mean look at the Greatsword, great at damage and solid at conditions if traited which i think is fine, it should do damage better as i see it as primarily a power/damage weapon

Whereas, the Staff it seems average at conditions and even worse at damage. Sure it has access to a few conditions but it still doesnt feel like its “condition” enough, 3 conditions on the auto attack is decent, another 3 on a 35second cool down is pretty meh as well.

Both Winds of Chaos and Chaos Storm don’t really feel “Chaos” enough. I find Mirror Blade to be better then Phase Retreat due to the fact that clones are summoned ON the target combined with the condition on death trait makes it SO much better then a Clone that is summoned away from the target.

I think that the bounce trait should affect Staff clones as well. The trait feels very meh with the fact that it has 3 average conditions. Sure the boons are decent but again – the fact thakittens just 2 out of how many boons isnt that great.

You ONLY stack bleeding with GS clones, making easier for the opponent to cleanse.
Ill repeat it, with your build you are trading GS burst with somewhat stronger bleed ticks.
Staff is way better for condition builds.

Maybe so, But you can stack them quickly and easily. So no worry about them being cleared. You then get Cripple and Random conditions on death works great with Mirror Blade, but is pretty useless with Phase Retreat. Bleed on crit works GREAT with iZerker can easily stack 4 bleeds per attack, the iLock…1 so yeah thats not that great.

“Way better” how so? 3 conditions on a 35second cool down (without trait) and 3 applied at random on the Auto Attack, though nice nothing “Choas” about that the fact that Clones have ONE attack with no bounces means 1 Bleed and random condition.

The Greatsword clones do Spacial Surge which is 3 ticks of damage, giving 3 chances at Bleeding. So 1 iZerker and 2 GS Clones and you can EASILY hit 10+ stacks of bleeding.

So while the Staff clones give an additional condition the GS clones die on the target alot more often so gaining Cripple and Random conditions so the benefit from the clone giving a condition with its attack isnt that great seeing as when they die they are rarely on/near the target.

Now if Clones attack BOUNCED and was affected by the Trait that would change things but currently they dont and the attack speed is pitiful.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Maybe so, But you can stack them quickly and easily. So no worry about them being cleared. You then get Cripple and Random conditions on death works great with Mirror Blade, but is pretty useless with Phase Retreat. Bleed on crit works GREAT with iZerker can easily stack 4 bleeds per attack, the iLock…1 so yeah thats not that great.

“Way better” how so? 3 conditions on a 35second cool down (without trait) and 3 applied at random on the Auto Attack, though nice nothing “Choas” about that the fact that Clones have ONE attack with no bounces means 1 Bleed and random condition.

The Greatsword clones do Spacial Surge which is 3 ticks of damage, giving 3 chances at Bleeding. So 1 iZerker and 2 GS Clones and you can EASILY hit 10+ stacks of bleeding.

So while the Staff clones give an additional condition the GS clones die on the target alot more often so gaining Cripple and Random conditions so the benefit from the clone giving a condition with its attack isnt that great seeing as when they die they are rarely on/near the target.

Now if Clones attack BOUNCED and was affected by the Trait that would change things but currently they dont and the attack speed is pitiful.

I agree that GS is good but I do agree staff is better. GS clones get a bleed stack on crit and they attack 3times per round = 3 chances. That is indeed good. Staff clones however can also get that chance at bleed on crit, plus a for sure condition one of which is burn and severally damaging. So 1 Staff clones get 1 chance and 1 for sure compared to 3 chances. I will take staff for the for sure thing and extra varied conditions. Now take the phantasms. iZerker is great finally does ok damage and is relatively reliable now and gets 4 chances at stacking bleeding. iWarlock gets 1 attack that is 1 chance at bleeding. However thanks to all those staff clones and yourself you its damage go way up. Also, staff clones dont get an extra bounce but they do bounce so that is potential boons for you.

Now onto you whole on death traits. I don’t really understand/agree at all with your claim they die closer more often. Most the time Phase Retreat is used to gain distance and at least for me I fight with staff up in their faces so my clones spawn right beside them as well. So really there is no difference there. Both die equally as fast. Ok maybe a ranged attacker will kill a staff clone at range but really if a ranged attacker is killing your GS clones while the are beside them then the enemy is weak and shouldn’t be considered in the data.

Staff is the best weapon we got for condition builds. However, I can see GS being a good support weapon for them as well but staff remains the core.

What if you need RANGE but want the clones to be on the target. that is one of the best things about Mirror Blade, you can be at range and using Mirror Blade on cool down can easily get conditions on death onto the target.

I think the biggest problem the staff has is the fact that if you need to be at range, the Auto attack on the staff is SO slow. whereas with both your auto attack and the clones auto attack on the GS you are dealing the damage pretty much instantly and having (with 3 clones up) 12 chances at bleeding with all 4 of you (you +3 clones) using Spacial Surge 3 ticks of damage x 4

Compare that to Staff and 3 staff clones You might get varied conditions but the long time between using the attack and it hitting means that you will get more bleeds and damage going with the Greatsword and the 3 Greatsword clones.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

and what if you are not a shatter build? what if you are a condition build. It just seems that the Greatsword is better at it, GS #2 is great for damage, Vul and Might and it spawns a clone on the target. iZerker > iLock when you take into account the Bleed trait.

Chaos Armor sucks since it got nerfed. Chaos Storm isnt that much “Chaos” wehn its only a few conditions, low damage and few boons though the daze is nice. At range Spacial Surge > Winds of Chaos.

This part of the problem that Scepter has, Anet doesnt know what kind of weapon its meant to be. by “meant” i mean thakittens more suited.

They know exactly what they want to scepter to be now. A pure condi weapon. Scepter shines and only shines now with heavy condi damage. Torment scales soo heavily and well that it’s a no brainer that it’s a straight condi weapon now. I’m not even seeing how anyone could argue otherwise.

Staff does well with either condi or power crit. Even in a power crit build if I just let staff clones stack things will start to melt. It’s just slow to build up.

Staff is a weapon who’s power isn’t obvious at first. If you don’t play a shatter build then you just let clones spam bleeds and burning. If you’re not speccd for shattering staff is still incredible.

I love everything about the staff…even in a power build, it is great. The (weaker) conditions make iwarlock hit much harder, the boons help regardless, and the chaos armor / chaos storm are still pretty good.

In a condition build, with condition duration, they can be great. perma-burning + lots of bleeding, and occasional CC. I don’t really care about vulnerability, but I tend to get 10 stacks of that without trying.

On top of that, phase retreat is amazing. The positioning advantage it gives you is subtle, but very strong vs melee / aoe. You essentially have an extra dodge + teleport.

For the last time, you are trading 9-10k mirror blade crits and in general the GS burst for better bleed ticks.
You dont want range, you wan to combo the prestige burning and torment with other conditions and you cant do it at 1200. Staff can let you cover conditions you applied with WoC diversity. A lot of classes can stack bleed fine but other classes can stack more conditions, the last one are better.

Levitas.1953:

You ONLY stack bleeding with GS clones, making easier for the opponent to cleanse.
Ill repeat it, with your build you are trading GS burst with somewhat stronger bleed ticks.
Staff is way better for condition builds.

This has been my experience as well with GS bleed builds. The bleed stack is so obvious and single sourced that it’s just cleansed. With 3 staff clones out and the mesmer auto attacking cleansing becomes much more difficult for any opponent.

Not saying GS is bad as much as I’m saying that in my experience GS’s single stack of bleeding is too easily seen and cleansed.

Levitas.1953:

For the last time, you are trading 9-10k mirror blade crits and in general the GS burst for better bleed ticks.
You dont want range, you wan to combo the prestige burning and torment with other conditions and you cant do it at 1200. Staff can let you cover conditions you applied with WoC diversity. A lot of classes can stack bleed fine but other classes can stack more conditions, the last one are better.

Agreed. If you really want to play bleed specs play thief.

My favorite GS build is 30-20-0-20-0 because my Autoattacks will hit for 3k sometimes with power crit gear.

I know you can use GS with condis but I don’t think you should necessarily.

Godmoney.2048:

They know exactly what they want to scepter to be now. A pure condi weapon. Scepter shines and only shines now with heavy condi damage. Torment scales soo heavily and well that it’s a no brainer that it’s a straight condi weapon now. I’m not even seeing how anyone could argue otherwise.

Staff does well with either condi or power crit. Even in a power crit build if I just let staff clones stack things will start to melt. It’s just slow to build up.

Staff is a weapon who’s power isn’t obvious at first. If you don’t play a shatter build then you just let clones spam bleeds and burning. If you’re not speccd for shattering staff is still incredible.

I agree i think they see the Sword as the damage and the Scepter as the conditon weapon, however the problem is Anet hasn’t really done that great of a job with it. Torrent has the issue that you have to wait the FULL 2second of the block for them to get it, dodge after they have hit you? sorry no torment for you is a VERY stupid design decision

Confusion is VERY meh and no conditions on auto attack? the Auto attack is VERY long as well

SO yeah, it has great potential but it still needs to be worked on a bit.

1. - Speed it up, add a conditon
2. - Make it so thakittens an AURA that instantly inflicts Torment on damage
3. - replace it Very meh ability and easily dodged. The Confusion isnt that great either

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Godmoney.2048:

They know exactly what they want to scepter to be now. A pure condi weapon. Scepter shines and only shines now with heavy condi damage. Torment scales soo heavily and well that it’s a no brainer that it’s a straight condi weapon now. I’m not even seeing how anyone could argue otherwise.

Staff does well with either condi or power crit. Even in a power crit build if I just let staff clones stack things will start to melt. It’s just slow to build up.

Staff is a weapon who’s power isn’t obvious at first. If you don’t play a shatter build then you just let clones spam bleeds and burning. If you’re not speccd for shattering staff is still incredible.

I agree i think they see the Sword as the damage and the Scepter as the conditon weapon, however the problem is Anet hasn’t really done that great of a job with it. Torrent has the issue that you have to wait the FULL 2second of the block for them to get it, dodge after they have hit you? sorry no torment for you is a VERY stupid design decision

Confusion is VERY meh and no conditions on auto attack? the Auto attack is VERY long as well

SO yeah, it has great potential but it still needs to be worked on a bit.

1. - Speed it up, add a conditon
2. - Make it so thakittens an AURA that instantly inflicts Torment on damage
3. - replace it Very meh ability and easily dodged. The Confusion isnt that great either

If I could have one scepter change it would be to speed up the build up time on the confusion channel.

That sort of shoulder shrug animation that happens before the channel starts drives me nuts.

Godmoney.2048:

Levitas.1953:

For the last time, you are trading 9-10k mirror blade crits and in general the GS burst for better bleed ticks.
You dont want range, you wan to combo the prestige burning and torment with other conditions and you cant do it at 1200. Staff can let you cover conditions you applied with WoC diversity. A lot of classes can stack bleed fine but other classes can stack more conditions, the last one are better.

Agreed. If you really want to play bleed specs play thief.

My favorite GS build is 30-20-0-20-0 because my Autoattacks will hit for 3k sometimes with power crit gear.

I know you can use GS with condis but I don’t think you should necessarily.

Greatsword with Bleeding is GREAT. Can easily stack 15+ Bleeds and with Rabid gear you will be rolling in Bleeding damage and even with just 20 in Dom it does great damage. Thinking about even going and swapping a few Rabid items for Rampagers or something

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Godmoney.2048:

Levitas.1953:

For the last time, you are trading 9-10k mirror blade crits and in general the GS burst for better bleed ticks.
You dont want range, you wan to combo the prestige burning and torment with other conditions and you cant do it at 1200. Staff can let you cover conditions you applied with WoC diversity. A lot of classes can stack bleed fine but other classes can stack more conditions, the last one are better.

Agreed. If you really want to play bleed specs play thief.

My favorite GS build is 30-20-0-20-0 because my Autoattacks will hit for 3k sometimes with power crit gear.

I know you can use GS with condis but I don’t think you should necessarily.

Greatsword with Bleeding is GREAT. Can easily stack 15+ Bleeds and with Rabid gear you will be rolling in Bleeding damage and even with just 20 in Dom it does great damage. Thinking about even going and swapping a few Rabid items for Rampagers or something

Hey man, if it works for ya do it. It’s just been in my experience I haven’t had that great of luck with GS bleed builds. Maybe it’s just my playstyle though. Who knows. Maybe I should try it again next time I experiment with specs.

You dont have to wait the channel for torment, you need to wait an attack.
Confusion is fine since you can stack it from iMage, scepter 3 and CoF. I usually shatter f2 when i have too scepter clones (illusionary counter). Good damage against skill spammers, good control against skilled players, it covers bleeding and torment stacks.
The problem is that confusing images animation is bad and suffer from retaliatation (5 times).

Edit: you can have those stacks of bleeding with staff (maybe two less?). and burning. and vulnerability.

Godmoney.2048:

Hey man, if it works for ya do it. It’s just been in my experience I haven’t had that great of luck with GS bleed builds. Maybe it’s just my playstyle though. Who knows. Maybe I should try it again next time I experiment with specs.

Maybe its not the staff. Maybe its my gameplay style I see all these build that use the Staff so well and while it is great while defending a tower in WvW i just cant seem to be able to get it to work in my sort of Playstyle. Even if the sort of build it would/could work well i think its my playstyle that is holding it back

Yeah i love the Greatsword BleedBuild i have going in WvW it rocks, both in groups, zergs and solo.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Godmoney.2048:

Hey man, if it works for ya do it. It’s just been in my experience I haven’t had that great of luck with GS bleed builds. Maybe it’s just my playstyle though. Who knows. Maybe I should try it again next time I experiment with specs.

Maybe its not the staff. Maybe its my gameplay style I see all these build that use the Staff so well and while it is great while defending a tower in WvW i just cant seem to be able to get it to work in my sort of Playstyle. Even if the sort of build it would/could work well i think its my playstyle that is holding it back

Yeah i love the Greatsword BleedBuild i have going in WvW it rocks, both in groups, zergs and solo.

So you know you would do better with a power build, right?
Same bleed stacks, less bleed tick damage, way more direct damage.

Levitas.1953:

You dont have to wait the channel for torment, you need to wait an attack.
Confusion is fine since you can stack it from iMage, scepter 3 and CoF. I usually shatter f2 when i have too scepter clones (illusionary counter). Good damage against skill spammers, good control against skilled players, it covers bleeding and torment stacks.
The problem is that confusing images animation is bad and suffer from retaliatation (5 times).

Edit: you can have those stacks of bleeding with staff (maybe two less?). and burning. and vulnerability.

I have been hit by attack and then dodged before the 2second is up and it hasnt inflicted Torment on them. Say they are using Dagger storm or something, you get hit and then dodge to avoid further damage, for some reason it will not proc Torment

Greatsword offers Vul as well a min of 3 stacks every time you use Mirror Blade, if in close range thats 6stacks of Vul + 3 stacks of Might for you. I find the Greatsword better at building the stacks ALOT faster

Levitas.1953:

So you know you would do better with a power build, right?
Same bleed stacks, less bleed tick damage, way more direct damage.

My Build:
Domination(20) – V, X
Dueling(20) II, X
Chaos(30) IV, V, XII

I find it works really well, Its more of condition/Power build with alot of toughness ^^

I meant power gear, 20/20/30 can be a good power build.
Mirror blade stacks might/vuln to boost your direct damage, not your conditions. If you try a traited mirror blade at close range against a squishy you would understand what im saying. Its GREAT burst and better bleed ticks are not comparable.
If i were in you i would try rampager, in this way you can have good direct damage and your bleed ticks hurt as well. 30 points in chaos and the traits there help you with survivability especially if you run something like sword/torch.

I hate the sword, i like range ^^
Yeah i will be swapping out some of my gear to go more into power. i have like 1300+ Condition damage so i could drop that a bit and pick up more Power

In all three aspects(PVE/ PVP/ W3) Staff wins vs GSword.

If i want a dmg, i go sword+any other off hand and shatter i dont need next weapon with dmg. Staff wins with support/clone/defense vs only Gs dmg. And still Chaos Armor is one of best buff in game, this random blind when thief use C&D… <3

With thief that have some brain, me and ele can hold 3 Fields all the time, and just Thief use 2 to active them, its perm immortal power. Also Chaos Storm is pretty kitten vs zergs/many moobs. Also with Phantom meta we dont lose too much dmg. Iwarlock scale heavy with power, i jsut love put 3 Iwarlocks tahth hit each 7s for 15k while i can focus on defensive, glamours and revive.

Dont ignore staff cos its dont have huge op dmg, remember you dont need to have 2 dmg weapons to be Pr0. Sometimes defensive is better than offence.

I just feel its TO defensive some times, not got the same kind of burst (imo) then the GS and cant stack bleeds the as quickly or easily as the GS (again imo) For a condition weapon, it just doesnt feel very condition-ary

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I just feel its TO defensive some times, not got the same kind of burst (imo) then the GS and cant stack bleeds the as quickly or easily as the GS (again imo) For a condition weapon, it just doesnt feel very condition-ary

GS dont have burst its sustained dmg, you have spike in shatter+Blurred and thats why every one run in PvP S/F or S/P and a STAFF. Its same goes in PVE. I put 3x warden/duelist/warlock they doo amazing dmg on its self, while i can either help others, focus on defense or just stay in melee and do 3x more dmg than GS weapon. You dont want DPS with range, until you are forced to it, and still its better to bring support for team. So others can focus 100% on dmg.
For Cof1 i change GS to Staff and its 10x better. Remember that even if we run 2x dmg weapon we still do less dmg tha nany other profession, so better bring huge utility (Phantom mesmers /30 inspiration) and still do great sustain dmg.

As for number:
GS aa do for me max 2.200dmg
Sword aa do 3.5k dmg
So its better to stay in melee than go range.

Michal.4513:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I just feel its TO defensive some times, not got the same kind of burst (imo) then the GS and cant stack bleeds the as quickly or easily as the GS (again imo) For a condition weapon, it just doesnt feel very condition-ary

GS dont have burst its sustained dmg, you have spike in shatter+Blurred and thats why every one run in PvP S/F or S/P and a STAFF. Its same goes in PVE. I put 3x warden/duelist/warlock they doo amazing dmg on its self, while i can either help others, focus on defense or just stay in melee and do 3x more dmg than GS weapon. You dont want DPS with range, until you are forced to it, and still its better to bring support for team. So others can focus 100% on dmg.
For Cof1 i change GS to Staff and its 10x better. Remember that even if we run 2x dmg weapon we still do less dmg tha nany other profession, so better bring huge utility (Phantom mesmers /30 inspiration) and still do great sustain dmg.

As for number:
GS aa do for me max 2.200dmg
Sword aa do 3.5k dmg
So its better to stay in melee than go range.

Did i say it was our best burst? No, it better burst then staff. I know its not burst compared to other weapon options but it does ALOT more direct damage (even when built for conditions) then the staff can do.

Also dont exaggerate using terms like “everyone” when mentioning Staff and S/TPvP i along with many mesmers i know dont touch the Staff in S/TPvP. PvE doesnt matter, its SO easy that you could run the WORST build and weapon combos and still do well (minus Dungeons/Fractuals)

There’s a finesse to the staff that has always drawn me in. However, it really, really needs any cooldown reduction you can give it to know its full potential. Winds of Chaos is an absolutely amazing clone ability, but of little value coming out of me. Anything I can do to minimize my time spent just auto-attacking is a must.

I didn’t like the greatsword in beta and launch. It felt overused and lacking in anything beyond raw ranged damage. The change of Mind Stab to a targeted effect, despite lacking anything I’d call “area” in its area effect, sealed the deal and I walked away. I’ve since been trying to force myself to use it as my alternate. I’m leaning towards a 20/0/20/0/30 hybrid build right now, and it would pair nicely with my staff if I could learn to like it.

Yeah, I don’t think you should say “everyone” in s/tpvp uses staff when one of the highest ranking mesmers uses the GS. http://www.twitch.tv/hansawesome

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

1 Bounce of Winds of Chaos = 120damage
1 Tick of Spacial Surge (at closest range, thus lowest damage = 246Damage

Though WoC adds a condition and some times a Boom, Spacial Surge does more damage is faster and ticks 3 times. So its 246DamageX3 Vs 120Damge+ Condition and POSSIBLE boon based on position

The GS has 3 attacks with a 1.5 second channel. The staff auto attack has a 3/4 second animation but there is after cast/clones delay times for both. I’m pretty sure a 3 to 1 attack comparison is stretching the truth by a lot. Also, with IE, the staff is doing 120×2 dmg for the mesmer and also double chance of conditions while the GS gives none for the mesmer.
With proper positioning, you should be getting those boons from the bounces. So 20% more crit chance and bonus power/condition damage. Furthermore 1 second of burning is equivalent to 1 bleed that lasts 5 seconds. As others have covered, have a mix of conditions is much harder to get rid of than just bleeds.

So with that in mind, comparing the clones of each:
GS: 3 attacks with a 60% chance of bleed on each attack.

Staff: 1 attack with 80% chance to bleed AND 33% of a 7 second bleed and 33% chance of a “5 second bleed (burning).” or basically an 80% and 66% chance to bleed on each clone auto attack. This happens more often than the gs beam.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I just feel its TO defensive some times, not got the same kind of burst (imo) then the GS and cant stack bleeds the as quickly or easily as the GS (again imo) For a condition weapon, it just doesnt feel very condition-ary

The warlock and chaos storm do some awesome power damage as well. Burning is basically 5 stacks of bleeds so it’s not a problem if your bleed stacks are lower. Just because you don’t see big number/stacks doesn’t mean it’s a pure defensive weapon. My zerker staff (with IE) crits for a total of 1200 per auto + conditions and that is about twice as often as the GS auto attack. For comparison the GS auto in my build crits for about 3k on average but only at 900+ range.
Basically 2.4k +conditions vs 3k at max range no conditions.

ArmageddonAsh: I feel that your claims that GS is better at applying conditions is not well-based in actual math. While I think GS could work very well in a hybrid build using Rampager’s gear, I feel that a pure condition build using full rabid gear is not optimal. Below, I will try to prove that.

Let’s assume 50% crit chance since that’s a pretty reasonable amount with full rabid.

A GS clone will hit 3 times every 1.5 seconds. This is equivalent to 2 hits every second.

2 hits/s x .50 crit = 1 bleed/second

Now let’s look at the iZerker, since you claimed that it has amazing bleed stacking ability. It attacks once every 6 seconds and does 4 strikes. Assuming all four attacks hit, that is:

4 attacks/ 6 seconds = .67 hits/s

.67 hits/s x .50 crit = .33 bleeds/second

As you can see, the iZerker does a fraction of the bleed damage that even a GS clone can do. For the iZerker to rival a GS clone in terms of bleed application, it would need to land all four hits against a minimum of three targets.

Now let’s look at a staff clone, again assuming the same stats. I’ll use a cast time of 1 second for staff clones since I believe they attack slightly more slowly than the mesmer.

.50 crit x 1 s = .5 bleeds/second due to Sharper Images
.33 × 1 s = .33 bleeds/second due to WoC
.33 × 1 s = .33 burn/second due to WoC
.33 × 1 s = .33 vuln/second due to WoC

In total, you get .83 bleeds/second and .33 burn/second in terms of damaging condition applications, as well as .33 vuln/second as a “buffer” condition.

Now let’s compare three staff clones and a staff mesmer attacking simultaneously to three GS clones and a GS mesmer attacking simultaneously. We’ll assume that both are using Sigil of Earth on their weapons.

GS:

From the sigil: .60 × .50 crit= .30 bleeds every 2s due to Sigil = .15 bleeds/s
From the clones: 3 clones x .50 crit x 2 hits/s = 3 bleeds/second due to GS clones
Total damaging conditions from GS: 3.15 bleeds/s

Staff:

Sigil: .60 × .50 crit = .3 bleeds every 2s = .15 bleeds/s
Mesmer Autoattack (attack speed of .75s translates into 1.33 hits per second) 1.33 hits/s x .33 bleed chance = .44 bleeds/s (note that these are longer bleeds with a base duration of 7s as opposed to the 5s of the sigil and Sharper Images procs/staff clones WoC)
1.33 × .33 burn chance = .44 burns/s
1.33 × .33 vuln chance = .44 vuln/s

Staff clones (assuming attack speed of 1s)
3 clones x (.33 bleed chance + .50 crit) = 2.49 bleeds/s
3 clones x .33 burn chance = 1 burn/s

Summary of Staff damage:
3.08 bleeds/s
1.44 burn/s
substantial vulnerability as a buffer condition.

As you can see, at 50% crit, using Sigils of Earth, staff and GS apply bleeds at an approximately identical rate. However, staff also has the benefit of applying burn, which does substantial dps, provides vulnerability to protect your other conditions from cleansing, and provides you with might and fury if you are close enough. As crit chance increases, GS will apply more and more bleeds per second. Staff will remain somewhat more static as crit chance increases since a good portion of its conditions are tied to WoC and are static chances, with Sharper Images playing much less of a role for staff clones.

Obviously, GS will be simultaneously dealing direct damage, which is why I mentioned using Rampager’s gear. Spatial Surge and Mirror Blade can both do a fair amount of damage with some investment in power. However, by investing solely in condition damage, you are missing out on that potential, and if you’re not going to utilize that potential, staff becomes the better option because it offers boon support and amazing defenses whilst doing better condition damage than the GS. Please note that I’m not trying to criticize your build or playstyle, but it was bothering me that you were trying to claim that GS was a superior condition weapon when mathematically, that is not the case.

Finally, I want to make the disclaimer that the math above deals with very idealized scenarios. Obviously, you will have to be doing more than just auto-attacking during the fight. Likewise, your opponent will dodge and use other skills to avoid taking damage, so the condition application rates described above are going to be on the high side for all the weapons analyzed. Also, one obviously cannot apply a fraction of a condition. For instance, saying that WoC applies .33 bleed/s is equivalent to saying that it applies 1 bleed every 3 seconds. I just put everything in terms of condition applications per second because that seemed most straightforward and would be the most useful should anyone attempt to incorporate the direct, power-based dps of either weapon into this later on.

From my experience, using the EXACT same gear, build and traits i find it SO much easier to stack Bleeds. Sure the Staff has access to more, 3 of them on long (for a weapon skill) cool downs.

Like i said above, maybe its my gameplay style that is not suited to a Staff weapon.At max range the staff becomes ALOT weaker in my opinion while the Greatsword becomes stronger.

using the Greatsword in a 1 Vs 1 fight i have seen Bleeding stack into the 20s using the Staff though against a different target in 1 Vs 1 fight i cant get past 10 some times and the most i have seen it go is 15 while at range, though being closer will speed that up, it also comes at a the cost of risk being melee attacked or attacked more easily then the Greatsword does. Sure the Staff has Phase Retreat but i find Mirror Blade Better in pretty much every way but again thats based on my own play style so that would differ to others..

The Greatsword also applies Vul and it also applies Cripple which is VERY useful so while Burning is nice, i prefer the use of Cripple from iZerker over Burning as it makes kiting people ALOT easier.

Also, i am not FULL Condition. Yes i have Rabid gear but i have points (20) in Domination and while i wont be able to do as much direct damage as some specs, its still pretty good.

Also as stated in the first post, my problem isnt with all the staff skills, rather just the Auto attack. In my opinion its to slow. With messing around in the Mists at the longest range it just seems that the Greatsword will do its full attack before the the Staff auto even hits it target some times.

Your maths while nice doesnt mean anything in terms of an actual fight. Say i am fighting someone who is at range. i Dodge or Phase Retreat back for clone or 2 we start attacking and he runs AWAY and out of range, now the clones arent doing ANY damage. Compare that to Mirror Blade that inflicts Vul and summons the clone ON the target so even if the target runs away the clone will STILL be in range for it to attack. I could then even use iZerker for some nice Cripple stacks – How would i be able to chase him using the staff?

The problem with your Maths is it doesnt take into account actual combat where people can run, dodge, stealth and use various other abilities to stop attacks. So maybe in a complete static fight where neither person moves then maybe more conditions might be applied via the staff but the Greatsword still has the iZerker and even just the Auto attack that can still hit very nicely

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

and what if you are not a shatter build? what if you are a condition build. It just seems that the Greatsword is better at it, GS #2 is great for damage, Vul and Might and it spawns a clone on the target. iZerker > iLock when you take into account the Bleed trait.

Chaos Armor sucks since it got nerfed. Chaos Storm isnt that much “Chaos” wehn its only a few conditions, low damage and few boons though the daze is nice. At range Spacial Surge > Winds of Chaos.

This part of the problem that Scepter has, Anet doesnt know what kind of weapon its meant to be. by “meant” i mean thakittens more suited.

GS for conditions? You need to look at some actual decent condition builds. This I didn’t even bother with staff for

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Build-Poisoned-Apples/first#post2381371

Often it’s not the weapon, or Anets “fault”, but the players.

Ross Biddle.2367:

GS for conditions? You need to look at some actual decent condition builds. This I didn’t even bother with staff for

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Build-Poisoned-Apples/first#post2381371

Often it’s not the weapon, or Anets “fault”, but the players.

Maybe read the posts first, i have said SEVERAL times that it is likely my playstyle that means its not as strong. Not once did i blame the weapon or Anet either.

And as for the build Meh, i dont like melee – otherwise i wouldnt have gone with weapons that are ALL range. I cant stand the sword. no matter how its our “best” damage/dps weapon.

You dont WANT to see the point.
First of all you are comparing a long cripple (berserk) with almost perma burning (staff clones) and this is stupid, you should already have crippling dissipation.
All the things you listed, might and vul from mirror blade, cripple from berserk you can have them with berserker/rampager gear and do MASSIVE damage.
And btw, Id call 9k mirror blade a burst so GS is not only sustained damage.

Again, you are comparing a mirror blade at half of its potential with phase retreat, and this is pointless again.
If you complain about wind of chaos you clearly miss the damage and utility of staff clones.
You seem too blind to understand that you are playing a good weapon with the wrong gear and after 40+ posts i say: good for you.