Guild Wars 2

For over a year i’ve played mesmer and have gotten particularly fond of the various shatter mesmer builds, and i’m not shy around the phant/mantra/interrupt/lockdown/condi builds either. mesmer’s fun to play in pve, but the range of builds are fewer the higher the difficulty of play.

Why is the tpvp mesmer deemed so terrible?

in pvp hotjoin, the shatters are ungodly. at one point after a game i was the only one to join with 9 other players spectating and one yelled:
“SOMEONE GET A THIEF TO KILL THE F***ING SHATTER MES”
Thieves even can have a hard time with mesmers. After all, a year of learning how to juke, shatter, and time your bursts can make a mesmer formidable, not only in 1v1, but 1vx.
Sure, i’m not capping their home point, but if i can keep 2 or 3 of their players huddled together on a single point, then i’m doing my job correctly and the other two pvp points are as good as ours.

Why is it then, in rated pvp matches, that the mesmer is deemed so unworthy?

In some recent matches with a pvp guild i’m trying out with, they looked down on the mesmer class, deeming it unfit for a proper pvp team. In forest of nifhel in a guild 5v5, our team has 2 mesmers, and later the consensus was that the reason we lost was because the team had two mesmers in it, one of them getting the top score for the game anyway(me), one of them decapping mid from the bunker guard(me) and one of them shattering down both a power ranger and a power necro in a 1v2(me).

Later, in another game, with a new mix of players, i was asked to play hambow warrior, even when i told them i rarely ever even play warrior(i don’t like the playstyle; it’s too slow and yet is way more bunker than it leads on and is too much cc/disable potential for one player). our team thief(very very experienced as a thief) was then immediately asked to play a shatter mesmer, even when that thief said shatter wasn’t their strong suit.

we ended up winning the next two games; i consistently roamed around, killed some players, called out some nice cc, and got lowest effective score. The high mobility, high glkittenter mesmer bunked home for the entirety of the two games.

I was a little more than peeved when the team leader ask that i play a class that i’ve played probably a total of 10 pvp matches with and a total of 10 hours on in game, and then replace me with ANOTHER shatter mesmer, that subsequently said that shatter wasn’t the best build for them.

After that the opposing team replaced their mesmer with a warrior as well; unfortunately, that mesmer mains only the mesmer class, which, concerning her warrior play, left a lot to be desired, and after the game told the guild that she didn’t want to be put in that situation again.

Frankly, i’m not going to change the class i main just to be in a guild that has a fair reputation of being a good pvp guild. But why all the hate towards mesmers in pvp in general?

i’ll agree with the fact that mesmer can be hard to play in high level group play, but i can confidently say that i can hold my own in tpvp, regardless of who i’m against, be it a bunker guard, ranger, hambow/eviscerate warrior, condi/invis thief, or even another mesmer.

Has anybody else experienced the feeling that just because you’re a mesmer, you’re not really wanted? or the feeling that teammates think you’re ineffective/the reason you lost a game or two?

This probably came out more like a rant since it’s around 2:30AM for me and i’m cranky, but i legitimately want to know, even though we aren’t the most supportive class, why people think mesmers aren’t effective enough to be given a spot in tpvp?

The people in your guild sound like a bunch of dopes. It sounds like they’ve heard that Mesmer isn’t good at a high level in organized tpvp, but they don’t really know why or how to use that knowledge. Unfortunately, their lack of understanding doesn’t change the facts of the situation.

Hotjoin is filled with people looking to test new builds that they’re unfamiliar with, people who just want to hop onto the winning team for quick points, and people that have no idea how to play. For this reason, the performance of a build in hotjoin means absolutely nothing. I could run 0/0/0/0/0 and still kill people just because they’re not good.

Shatter Mesmer doesn’t work in tPvP because it is hard-countered by thieves. I know you say that you feel confident you can handle anything, but you’re simply mistaken. Any competent s/d or s/p thief can and will dismantle you rapidly. Other very difficult matchups are condition engineers, since you’re extremely limited in the condition removal you can take.

Shatter Mesmer requires that your team be half of your build. Your team has to strip thieves for you and your team has to clear conditions for you. While it’s technically possible to make this work, the vast majority of teams make the decision that it’s simply easier to not bother, and bring something else that has condition removal and doesn’t melt to thieves.

Now, another option is to run a PU condition build. This actually is viable up until you get to the very highest levels of tPvP, which it doesn’t sound like you’re at. However, most teams don’t know how to effectively utilize this type of build, and even less people know how to effectively play it in a tPvP environment. It has the option of viability though, because it can tear apart all thieves.

So to answer your direct questions. No, I’ve never felt not wanted in a PvP team because I’m a Mesmer, and that’s mainly because I don’t have the time or patience to join PvP teams. I’ll solo queue or do solo team queue if I do tPvP.

Have teammates felt I’m ineffective sometimes? Probably. Am I blamed for losses? Usually not, because I usually win. If we lose, I blame myself for the loss because it’s always possible to play better and force your team to win regardless of the circumstances (see my guide to solo queue for a more complete explanation of that).

The short answer to your final question is: thieves. Thieves are why Mesmer is not viable in PvP. There are other reasons, but that’s the primary factor.

You’re going to run into a lot of parrots. Unfortunately sometimes those parrots get to be team leaders, and thus the situation you ran into occurs.

When you hear people say “Mesmer is bad in PvP.” “PU Mesmer sucks” “Of course I lost Mesmers OP and need a nerf” “Of course our team lost, we had a Mesmer!” ect. Then odds are they don’t really know what they’re talking about. They’re echoing something someone else said, who probably parroted it off what they heard someone else said, who probably read it parroted on the forums. This trend comes from top players talking about their experiences and everyone else thinking that they play on the same level.

Like Pyro said, good Thieves hardcounter shatter Mesmer but there are other options. Only in the highest ends of PvP or versus specific team comps does Mesmer really fall short.

(Besides it could be worse.. You could be a Ranger and get blamed for everything all the time. =P)

Fay.2357:

Shatter Mesmer requires that your team be half of your build. Your team has to strip thieves for you and your team has to clear conditions for you. While it’s technically possible to make this work, the vast majority of teams make the decision that it’s simply easier to not bother, and bring something else that has condition removal and doesn’t melt to thieves.

My impression (second-hand) is that to make it worth it to the team you really have to get them addicted to Portals as one of the pillars of their team strategy.

Fay.2357:

Now, another option is to run a PU condition build. This actually is viable up until you get to the very highest levels of tPvP, which it doesn’t sound like you’re at. However, most teams don’t know how to effectively utilize this type of build, and even less people know how to effectively play it in a tPvP environment. It has the option of viability though, because it can tear apart all thieves.

I don’t use PU condition builds because
1) it’s awfully cheesey how you can stay in stealth longer, get outrageous boons from said stealth, and then on top of that be naturally tanky.
1a)the tankiness and conditions rip apart thieves, i’ll give you that, but when you’re up against another bunker build with condi-cleanse(and there’s always going to be that guard in tpvp), the fight is just painfully slow. in all honesty i think one of the players just gives in and either runs away or just lets them down the other.

2) because of the focus on stealth, your capping capabilities are much lower than other classes, which is the main reason i don’t use pu/anything in tpvp.

so unless you’re giving other reasons why pu/condi isn’t in high level tpvp, i’m just gonna say that i’m not a scrub, but i know what i’m talking about

Cheesy is all in your head. Why let whining kids dictate what you feel comfortable playing?

As for the actual effectiveness of it, you have to know how to play it, as I said. It’s a different style and takes different strategies than a normal shatter build. Most people try to play it the same way and it doesn’t work, so they assume it doesn’t work at all.

PU isn’t really viable at the very top level, because a highly organized and well practiced team can rotate quickly to counter the strategies that you use, due to your lack of map-wide mobility. However, this isn’t easy to do, which is why it only stops working at the very top level (like if you’re fighting the top 5 teams in the game).

You play PU condie as a disruptive roamer, aiming to create a numbers advantage for your team. Your usual range is roaming between far and mid. You support mid with boon strip (pDisenchanter) and aoe support conditions (cripple/weakness/vuln). Your primary objective though, is to get a decap on far and then control it and any other nearby objectives.

You want to move to far rapidly with blink, avoiding a skirmish until it’s decapped. In a PU condition build played well, you should be able to duel anyone 1v1 without excessive use of stealth, holding the point easily. The objective here is to either 1. Maintain a fight on the point in a 1v1 while holding the point
Or
2. Force the other team to send more people.

If they send more people, now you start using PU. It doesn’t matter if you lose the point when you’re maintaining a 2/3v1, because your team now has a numbers advantage at mid and should secure it for a 2cap. The longer you can survive and waste multiple people’s time, the greater an advantage you’ll get. Eventually you pull off using stealth and blink, and reset to mid to begin it again.

While doing this, you keep any eye on any nearby secondary objectives, and aim to control those as well.

This can be countered by incredibly smooth rotations. The enemy team needs to rotate a bunker and a dps to their home to cap it while moving a roamer to decap your home. This necessarily means abandoning mid, which can be potentially incredibly damaging depending on the situation and map (foefire).

So, countering is possible, and the top few teams can and will do that, but for everyone else, it works.

As said before, Thieves hard counter glass Mesmers (don’t they hard counter glass any class? lol) whether they be shatter or phantasm or whatever, even when playing Pyro’s phant dueling spec a good thief can easily win I find, because they can literally negate your damage by killing the phantasms the second they spawn even with full phantasm buffs, and phant is not viable in tpvp regardless.

Madisonlee.9641:

As said before, Thieves hard counter glass Mesmers (don’t they hard counter glass any class? lol) whether they be shatter or phantasm or whatever, even when playing Pyro’s phant dueling spec a good thief can easily win I find, because they can literally negate your damage by killing the phantasms the second they spawn even with full phantasm buffs, and phant is not viable in tpvp regardless.

Well, if you play it effectively, that build will kill thieves without too much difficulty, although the fight can be a bit risky. However, phantasm builds do have limited usefulness in tPvP. They’re good on Khylo for trebbing, but that’s all.