Guild Wars 2

So of our new traits, the only ones that really show any sort of potential are Power Block and Maim the Disillusioned. I wanted to see if we could put our heads together and come up with the most viable Torment Mesmer build possible. This would mean a couple things:

• Creating an effective Condition Mesmer that doesn’t rely on PU
• Incorporating Scepter & Maim the Disillusioned into a shatter-ish build.

I know that in theory Condition Mesmer are inferior to Shatter Mesmer due to Shatter’s damage being upfront and instant while Conditions take time and get smothered by other classes, but is anyone interested in seeing if we could carve out a niche for PU-less condi Mes?

I tried some while ago a shatter condi build with Maim of disillusioned, and it work quite good in hot join. People was killing themselves with such incredibly easiness.

But better focus on torment+confusion, blocking with Illusionary Counter+Mirror Images+Cry of Frustration is a pretty good condi burst: 8 stacks of torment and 6 stacks of confusion, plus 3 stacks of might. Aka 1500 with every skill activated and 1200 of torment if moving.

This is a build I would start:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtdqxRNcrNitBdyakDUPkjsySGghB-TVyCABAcEAO+BAglSJm3f4S1fySZje6DGTJ40nCgAAIAzsMLzZGwMn5Mn5MnZpAgYaE-w

I don’t play condition builds so this might be a bit of a mess!

PvP:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRArc8alknpMtFpxRNcrNCrBh6rkmfSyEEgSGirB-TJRHwAJLDI4kAA4JAMZ/BA

WvW:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRArd8alknpMtFpxRNcrNCrBh6rkmfSyEEgSWhrB-TVSHABmouiRKXyd/BWUpQgTCwRKpA4JAgm+hoUCGAABYmlZZWmBm5Mn5Mn5MLFAMzBA-w

Ansau.7326:

This is a build I would start:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtdqxRNcrNitBdyakDUPkjsySGghB-TVyCABAcEAO+BAglSJm3f4S1fySZje6DGTJ40nCgAAIAzsMLzZGwMn5Mn5MnZpAgYaE-w

Since you’re using Menders Purity why not exploit the hell out of your Heal? I ran a similar set up and used the Mantra plus Balthazar Runes. The additional Burn is way more valuable than the slightly better Torment. It worked pretty well.

It is super boring, though, and it also involves a lot of stealthing.

Xaylin.1860:

Ansau.7326:

This is a build I would start:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtdqxRNcrNitBdyakDUPkjsySGghB-TVyCABAcEAO+BAglSJm3f4S1fySZje6DGTJ40nCgAAIAzsMLzZGwMn5Mn5MnZpAgYaE-w

Since you’re using Menders Purity why not exploit the hell out of your Heal? I ran a similar set up and used the Mantra plus Balthazar Runes. The additional Burn is way more valuable than the slightly better Torment. It worked pretty well.

It is super boring, though, and it also involves a lot of stealthing.

Well, Chaos asked for a torment build xd There’s world to discover here with a condi non-PU build.

Peculiar… I was literally just testing this out, trying to find just one more working build to salvage our class. And -

Ansau.7326:

This is a build I would start:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtdqxRNcrNitBdyakDUPkjsySGghB-TVyCABAcEAO+BAglSJm3f4S1fySZje6DGTJ40nCgAAIAzsMLzZGwMn5Mn5MnZpAgYaE-w

This is almost exactly what I came out with, traitwise.

I feel like there’s an over-reliance on Torment here, though. Yeah, we want to get the most out of it, but it comes at a cost of defense and utility, I think. That is… okay, you can maintain 100% torment uptime… but you’re not PU. Can you live?

WITHOUT testing it in pvp(I’m not exactly, ah, pro), I liked the idea of using Desperate Decoy, and dropping Decoy for… something. Might not be the best strat given the weapons involved, but I want a getaway for burst builds (especially thieves) that catch me with mantra down(I was doing the mantra+balth thing). I feel like Arcane Thievery would be good, to counteract our limited Might-gaining abilities.

I was also using Celestial gear, trying to make it work despite Fay’s discussion in that other thread. I want this build to be relatively effective even against cleanse-happy enemies, via phantasm damage and the like.

With all that said though, I couldn’t really work out a good rotation, and if taken into wvw, all most classes need to do is throw on swiftness, cleanse, and run.

This sounds fun! All of these builds may end up sucking in practice but here is my submission, a PvP Torment Mesmer:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArcWl0npBtNqxQNcrRSrBdqjg6rkleSqAUyPUNA-TZxFwAI3fwZZAAHBAEnCADPAAA

My goal was to make a Power/Condi hybrid whose Mind Wracks still hit decently hard and leave you maimed.

Weapons

• Sc/Sw offers a very defensive loadout with two blocks, the #3 applying the build’s focus of Torment. #4 hits hard can be used as an interrupt (not a primary focus of the build but it does stack Vulnerability to set up for the shatter). Confusing Images hits decently well due to Power and stacks a bit of pressure/condi shielding through Confusion. The iSwordsman is what he is. If it is up use it but he will probably just feed the shatter machine.

• Staff because staff is awesome and offers even more defense and mobility through #2. The iWarlock hits respectably hard but will again probably just feed your shatters more often than not.

Utilities/Elite

• Mantra of Recovery: Used for trait synergy.

• Signet of Domination: Significant boost to condi damage and an on-demand stun for interrupts and setting up shatter.

• Decoy: Because it is Decoy.

• iDisenchanter: Your primary source of condi removal. Could also use Null Field if you don’t want to manage the phantasm or want more reliable cleansing/area cleansing for point fighting. You lose some synergy with traits (Illusions III) though.

• Mass Invis: Because everything else is terrible.

Traits
I have several choices here that I am really iffy on and would love feedback. I will detail the changes that I see could be made.

• Domination I (Mental Torment): I am going for a hybrid build here so this helps bring Mind Wrack into a respectable range for damage. If you want to focus more on conditions move these points to Chaos and grab Debilitating Dissipation. (Question, does a clone being “killed” count on shatters? Sorry I am a noob and have never tested this. Burn me at the stake as you see fit).

• Dueling IV (Blade Training) and X (Deceptive Evasion): Blade Training for reduced block duration which adds more defense and a shorter CD Power spike of damage. Also makes Shatters crit a bit more. That isn’t a bad thing. I would love to see how Retaliation Shield would work here with the 2 blocks. But in the end I feel Blade Training is better.

• Inspiration IV (Mender’s Purity): Condi removal synergy with Mantra heal. ’Nuff said.

• Illusions III (Compounding Power), VII (Illusionary Elasticity), and XIII (Point of This Thread Trait): Compounding Power for increased shatter damage (Question: Does this damage increase apply to stacked conditions? Namely the confusion and torment the shatter will cause. Again with the noob and fiery witch hunt thing). Grandmaster choice needs no explanation.

Gear

• Carrion amulet for the hybrid focus. You will have zerker level survivability though. So that sucks.

• Rune of the Nightmare: Tormenting isn’t available in PvP from what I can see, so I thought this could be interesting. It adds a solid amount of condi damage and duration increase for more mileage out of Torment and Confusion. Nightmare on being struck both guarantees torment’s bigger damage tick and offers survivability/control.

• Sigil’s of Energy: More defense. More clones. More shatter. Much good.

• Sigil of Doom: Condi shielding to protect Torment from cleanse, anti-heal pressure, minor damage.

• Sigil of Ice (I may actually switch this with the Doom one. Unsure yet): I am a Chill fanboy. Also, slower movement means more walking which equal more tormenting. Hydromancy would also work just as well.

I am new to mesmer theorycrafting but really like the class (even if we are in a downturn at the moment). I would love to hear from you veteran mesmers on how much this build is laughably terrible.

Thanks!

Ansau.7326:

I tried some while ago a shatter condi build with Maim of disillusioned, and it work quite good in hot join. People was killing themselves with such incredibly easiness.

But better focus on torment+confusion, blocking with Illusionary Counter+Mirror Images+Cry of Frustration is a pretty good condi burst: 8 stacks of torment and 6 stacks of confusion, plus 3 stacks of might. Aka 1500 with every skill activated and 1200 of torment if moving.

This is a build I would start:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtdqxRNcrNitBdyakDUPkjsySGghB-TVyCABAcEAO+BAglSJm3f4S1fySZje6DGTJ40nCgAAIAzsMLzZGwMn5Mn5MnZpAgYaE-w

My concern with this build is the lack of condi clear. The multiple strong conditions of the shatters are good though. Maybe it can move out the scepter extra damage trait to the 3 time mantra trait (i suck at names) then use mantra of recovery.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRAsc7alknpMtlqxGNMrNCvBZ6FUgGg6ccjPWqAA-TZxFwAI3f4wBBAwJAwwTAoZZAA

Wanted to do something a little differently with it, so here’s an interrupt hybrid torment build.
As far as I know chill/cripple doesn’t decrease torments tick. So long as there still moving it doesn’t matter at what speed.

This takes me straight back to my confusion shatter build days. The build is exactly the same. What’s important is not the build but how you play it.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpRtlpxNNcrNitBZyOUCUPkjsySGghB-TFyCABA8AAYe/BsU+dp6PMcEA0Tfw0nCgxUCGAABYmlZZOzAIFAETjA-w

The obvious weakness here is no swiftness. I’m reluctant to take torch in place of focus for that reason, but the torch works so well with the condition shatter it’s better not to go without.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArcRl0npItNqxTNcrNiuBdyWEDUHkkMySGgdB-TFCBABfp8b69HA4QA4p6PhcCACUfgaKB1+JAEAABYm1ZZuzAH9oH9oH9oNzZuzZuzdWKgJ1VB-w

Sounds interesting… Tried to balance in a bit of defense and condition cleanse without compromising the entire build. Stealth is still important even if not using the PU trait if just to buy yourself some time to reposition or cleanse/heal in peace. Though I’d consider switching out mass invis with moa as an alternative. I’d also consider switching out the torment runes with Balthazar for that devastating fire damage.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtdqxRNcrNyrBdyhcEUHlqkTSOgAA-TVyCABAcEAO+BAglSJm3f4S1fySZje6DGTJ40nCgAAIAzsMLzZGwMn5Mn5MnZpAgYaE-w

Whatcha think? I wanted the first four points for the added vulnerability and the torch condi clears. Plus torch has some great condi dmg and survivability with stealth.

I’m running this and having great success in tpvp. I honestly haven’t had many problems with any condition builds in tpvp lately, because everyone is running power/ might stacking builds or zerker builds it seems. Arcane thievery to steal might stacks and stuff seems to be clutch enough in most circumstances.

If I feel like I need more condi clear though, I’ll take 1 out of dueling and chaos and pick up mender’s purity.

I’ve also played with Traveler’s Runes because the 10% universal condi duration adds good enough damage to pick up the slack of not picking pure condition damage runes(you only drop 30ish damage on torment and very little on confusion from travelers).

This build I’m posting is more of the “ham” version of torment build, I think.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7flknpNtdqxMNcrNysBZuOg6kslYW2AkMA-TZRHwABOIAJLDA4CAI4JAEa/BA

The other option is scepter/sword with perplexity. Make use of those interrupts. Also good for clone production.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArcWlknpRtlpxNNcrNCvBZyIkBUfjk8xSGgbB-TVyCABA8AA2TTwlq/s8+DJqEkhjAQWK/0TPw0nCgAAIAzMycmBQKAYmGB-w

blackbolt.8160:

Ansau.7326:

I tried some while ago a shatter condi build with Maim of disillusioned, and it work quite good in hot join. People was killing themselves with such incredibly easiness.

But better focus on torment+confusion, blocking with Illusionary Counter+Mirror Images+Cry of Frustration is a pretty good condi burst: 8 stacks of torment and 6 stacks of confusion, plus 3 stacks of might. Aka 1500 with every skill activated and 1200 of torment if moving.

This is a build I would start:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtdqxRNcrNitBdyakDUPkjsySGghB-TVyCABAcEAO+BAglSJm3f4S1fySZje6DGTJ40nCgAAIAzsMLzZGwMn5Mn5MnZpAgYaE-w

My concern with this build is the lack of condi clear. The multiple strong conditions of the shatters are good though. Maybe it can move out the scepter extra damage trait to the 3 time mantra trait (i suck at names) then use mantra of recovery.

You clean 2 condis with the heal. If more condi cleansing is needed, you can take mantra of Resolve, or even with just Mantra of Recovery is enough.
Scepter trait is more for the +200 condi damage than anything. This is about a burst condi build, so better have as much condi damage as you can.

Good ideas overall.

Ross Biddle.2367:

This takes me straight back to my confusion shatter build days. The build is exactly the same. What’s important is not the build but how you play it.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpRtlpxNNcrNitBZyOUCUPkjsySGghB-TFyCABA8AAYe/BsU+dp6PMcEA0Tfw0nCgxUCGAABYmlZZOzAIFAETjA-w

The obvious weakness here is no swiftness. I’m reluctant to take torch in place of focus for that reason, but the torch works so well with the condition shatter it’s better not to go without.

I really like the trait spread here but I think I would run it with Sc/Sw and Staff or maybe even GS. Staff and GS #5 are quite good for CI procs.

My only big question here is why the celestial amulet? This seems to be mostly a condi build or maybe a hybrid build. So why not rabid or carrion?

I usually just run straight up shatter pow/pre with some toughness (roaming wvw).

But lately given condi mes a try, or the tormenting mesmer. Got bit of mix feeling for it, applying condition is very slow compared to my engi, necro or any other class for that matter. Since your clones have to get destroyed to apply anything. So that leaves tormenting and confusion on shatter, which quite frankly gets cured so fast before any other condition is set upon em. And once your skills are on cooldown you just open yourself up to a whooping (thieves almost always get the better of me).

I run this build atm:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRAsd7fnsISZa2oGGpB3aIp0gMVOQdZuTTJVAK5IKHA-T1yAABAp+DAmgcw0QM6HATJG17PcmyAKUCqxTAY7TCwTKNCAgAwMToDNpAYSaE-w

Downside is mobility so i have to use focus for swiftness which iv never really enjoyed. As i use the tormenting rune set there is no +25 movement.. Some really slow moments inbetween focus cooldown.

Tho i do get a kick outta seeing someone run to their death with torment and confusion eating away at em when ever they do something.

Its different for sure, and can be fun at times. But kitten can it be frustrating aswell.

Can I make the assumption that we are no longer buggy? Cause if the double CD traiting worked for Sc2, I would actually go with dungeon ideology of 1 superior main hand and 2 offhands. Sc2 would have a shorter CD than weapon swap so I would never want to lose it but 2 offhands and weapon swap sigils would still work. Just for the sake of theory crafting I’ll just run with this anyways.

The focus offhand
Since this challenge focuses on torment but no PU it becomes important for us to force enemies to chase us while we kite as much as possible (make them melee). This makes focus one of the ideal off-hands. Swiftness and cripple combined with a pull are amazing for kiting melee. Warden, when it works, is great for forcing people to swap out of ranged and therefore chase in melee.

The other offhand
If this is a PvP “bunker” build that cannot stealth on point (No PU requirement) then Torch is not usable and I would use the pistol for some bleeds and an interrupt. If bunkering is not a concern then torch is an good choice for the aoe blind and burn. Alternatively, torment would be great in trying to shut down people that are trying to get from point to point in PvP and a torch 4, mirror images, F2 spike might be worth it.

Runes and Sigils
Sigil of Doom is great. I’ve been toying with the idea of Grenth for better kiting/increased CD on enemy skills. This would have synergy with sigil of hydromancy. For WvW, torment runes would make more sense.

Traits
0/4/0/4/6. DE and Maim are obvious choices. I would like to propose a shatter trait in inspiration though since no one ever thinks about that line for shatter. Since our vigor is <50% up time from dueling, this would help a lot for the Mesmer and the Mesmer’s team. Phantasmal fury for more duelist/warden bleeds. The one choice that I’m torn on is of course based off of bugs. Do you trait the focus or the scepter? Idk.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRArd7alknpItdqxWNMrNCuBdyRA1/IKnskB4XA-TJRHwADOJAi2fIZZAAPBAA
Moa Morph because ppl tend to run or randomly spam skills when Moa’d.
Even in WvW, I feel that portal can be used as another one of those rage skills that make people mindlessly run back and forth between two points trying to chase a mesmer. The heal would change based off of runes.

I never really considered using most to just make people freak out and spam skills. Good call.

It would also remove their condi cleanses. May be good on high condi cleanse professions like guardian.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Can I make the assumption that we are no longer buggy? Cause if the double CD traiting worked for Sc2

Still buggy unfortunately but if not I’d be right with you on that and a couple other build ideas I have lying around.

Can’t test this in sPvP cuz you can’t use torment runes, but I want to try something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7fl0npRtlpxUNcrNyqBZqWg6s0lgW6MktAA-T1xYwA03fAgyvfq/45iFIS3z+nowClgBAQACQmzcmz8QH6QH6QHazcmzcmzcmlCAidVA-w

You get torment from crits, heals, blocks, and shatters. Went with debilitating dissipation to pad my stacks of torment and confusion. And went with generosity, because there’s no condition removal other than nullfield.

A lot of interesting ideas here, I was also thinking about maybe Scepter/Offhand – Scepter/Offhand. Was thinking about torment runes too, but I’d assume that’s actually a bit overkill on the Torment. Some thoughts I was throwing around ..

• It’s a bit hard to choose between Staff, Pistol, and Torch. Torch’s AoE burn application and stealth could be extremely useful, especially comboing Prestige + MantraHeal-BalthazarBurn. Pistol offers CC and can work really well with both Signet of Domination and Scepter for nailing Confusing Images. Pistol phantasm’s bleed application is no joke too… But.. but dat staff (thats wut she said). It probably offers the least damage of the three but a massive amount of defense/utility. Despite that, I’m leaning towards Scepter/Torch-Scepter/Pistol (or mayybe sword in there somewhere. We really need another 1h option. -_- )

• Runes of Balthazar would likely be best bet for the AoE burn and increasing burn duration from Staff/Torch.

• Of all the trait setups, I’m thinking either 4/4/0/0/6 or 0/4/4/0/6 may be best. Traiting into domination allows for a traited torch or shattered concentration as well as an additional 20% condition duration, but traiting into Chaos allows for Debilitating Dissipation and Bountiful Interruption/Chaotic Dampening.

The one question that I’m caught up on remains.. what will the build excel at? With the Scepter/Torch-Staff ; Balthazar Runes ; Doom/Hydromancy Sigils I see the potential for a lot of AoE condition damage, but would it be better than what a Necromancer/Engineer can offer? It’s more survivable than a standard shatter build, but will it do relatively comparable damage? Can it kill noticeably faster than a PU build?

And there’s the other rub…

Would traiting 30chaos for PU still be superior to any other condition variant? Will we be able to chase down opponents any better?

Of course, it doesn’t have to be better than any of our other … 3… ‘meta-ish’ builds ( 4/4/6 lockdown, 4/4/0/0/6 shatter, 4/4/6 PU) but if it can compare then we’re on to something.

What are your opinions on the hybrid build? Does hybrid just not have a place in pvp?

See I’m having a little difficulty because the ideal build in my mind would be hybrid direct damage/condition damage shatter – 4/4/0/0/6 (taking staff + scepter/pistol or torch).

Stats to focus on would be:
1. Power
2. Condition Damage
3. Precision
4. Ferocity

Unfortunately the trouble is in pvp the correct amulet doesn’t exist, and in pve/wvw the right stat combo doesn’t exist.

The idea would be to play glassy like a normal shatter (ie minimal toughness or vitality), and instead of full zerker, drop power and ferocity down and raise condition damage to roughly 50/50 spread.

But this would require Power/Condition Damage/Precision and Condition Damage/Power/Ferocity or similar gear to work.

Rampagers is useless because you don’t need precision as the major stat…

:/

tl;dr – All condition damage gear has “useless stats” on it – such as vit/tou, or wrong distribution (rampagers) – will not work for glassy hybrid shatter.

Curunen.8729:

See I’m having a little difficulty because the ideal build in my mind would be hybrid direct damage/condition damage shatter – 4/4/0/0/6 (taking staff + scepter/pistol or torch).

Stats to focus on would be:
1. Power
2. Condition Damage
3. Precision
4. Ferocity

Unfortunately the trouble is in pvp the correct amulet doesn’t exist, and in pve/wvw the right stat combo doesn’t exist.

The idea would be to play glassy like a normal shatter (ie minimal toughness or vitality), and instead of full zerker, drop power and ferocity down and raise condition damage to roughly 50/50 spread.

But this would require Power/Condition Damage/Precision and Condition Damage/Power/Ferocity or similar gear to work.

Rampagers is useless because you don’t need precision as the major stat…

:/

tl;dr – All condition damage gear has “useless stats” on it – such as vit/tou, or wrong distribution (rampagers) – will not work for glassy hybrid shatter.

I agree that it is the challenge and major flaw to the hybrid power/condi shatter mesmer.

What if, however, we tried to make up some of that Precision/Ferocity ground through Runes of the Ranger? The wiki says it works with illusions and you should nearly ALWAYS have at least one illusion up.

This would give us an almost-perma 7% damage boost (can anyone confirm that this applies to condi damage as well?) and add +100 Precision and +65 ferocity. I would still run this with a Carrion amulet.

We would lose a lot of condi damage (100) and condi duration, however. Maybe that 7% boost can help.

Obviously there is no perfect solution. The downside to a hybrid anything is that you are spread thin in the stats department or have to just decide to not be a 50/50 split and favor either condi or power just slightly.

skcamow.3527:

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Can I make the assumption that we are no longer buggy? Cause if the double CD traiting worked for Sc2

Still buggy unfortunately but if not I’d be right with you on that and a couple other build ideas I have lying around.

I know it’s buggy. It was more of a, "may I dream of a hypothetical situation when we no longer are bugged? ;( "

Veruah.5302:

What are your opinions on the hybrid build? Does hybrid just not have a place in pvp?

Hybrid for warrior and ele are two meta bunker builds at the moment. It requires might stacking for more raw power and condi dmg onto a celestial amulet. Mesmers can have decent might stacking but then SD thieves happen. They steal boons and they wreck mesmers. Warriors have sturdy bodies and eles have so many boons that can act as cover boons so it matters less. D.Dissipation might actually be an answer to this. Since thief S/D #3 is a cleave and happens after the perma-dodge, it should guarantee clone death procs onto a thief. Weakness will decrease endurance regen and help us tank a bit. S/D #3.2 is the unblockable boon steal so don’t try to Sc2 that.

I guess this kind of goes back to Chaos’s question of what would this build accomplish. The other meta mesmer builds don’t have much stopping power. Torment on Sc2 usually doesn’t stop smart players as they know to back off/stop attacking if things are going downhill. What if we had a build that started the fight with torment from Sc2 and then applies more if someone tries to run? I think this is where a Maim build could add a bit of diversity as it gives mesmers stopping power. Sc/Focus + GS would give a pull and push, 2 cripples and clone generation on top of targets. Runes of Str + Shattered Str, GS2, Bountiful Interruption and sigil of battle would get a lot of might for a hybrid build. With the ability to do decent power dmg as well as cripple, confuse, torment and poison at 1200 range, very few builds should be able to escape this.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArdBnsISRaWlGMrZEcDykToBo+HR5klMA/C-TJRHwAFODAc2fAwjA4YZAA

This setup also doesn’t rely on stealth, sword 2, staff 2 etc so your build won’t actively hinder you at holding a point. Celestial amulet, DD and Chaos in general should help with sustain. I picked the signet heal as this build is meant to keep illusions up until someone tries to run. Then your passive healing drops but that’s ok cause torment just finished them off. 3rd utility could be null field, or arcane thievery or whatever is needed.

Veruah.5302:

The only % increase that affects conditions is sigil of bursting and that is a % increase to condition dmg stat so it doesn’t even affect the base portion of condition dmg.

Frifox! Where art thou!? I need numbers!

Specifically: How much condition damage do you need for respectable damage? 1300? 1500?

@Veruah: That’s an interesting spread, but two things jump out at me. Firstly, Carrior amulet is pretty bad for Mesmer, when traiting either power or condition damage you need precision either way. Secondly, the heal mantra bothers me. I understand the reasoning: Mender’s Purity to cleanse condis, but the actual healing amount is so low that I’m not certain it’s enough sustain.

Other than that, it looks pretty interesting. I made some slight changes mostly around the runes/sigils and I’m almost positive the pistol will outdamage the offhand sword here (as the pistol does both power/condition damage).

With this, the scepter/pistol would be for single targets where the staff, shatters, and mantra heal would dish out AoE damage.

Edit: @Duck that’s a very interesting alternative there and I definitely see potential, but having two mantras could end up being a hindrance in the middle of a fight. Decoy/Mirror Images could work in MoConcentration’s place though.

The primary issue with builds using maimed that has been discussed a lot on the forum is the lack of burst potential. That being the case, I think that issue has to be resolved for a build using maimed to be considered “viable”.

If you can’t burst with the build, you need to get condition duration as long as possible to allow the torment from maimed to make a bit of difference. If you’re talking PvP, this isn’t possible IMO. If you’re talking WvW, there are potential possibilities.

I think that the right setup could actually offer burst potential. Torment + Prestige + Balthazar runes + Pistol phant comes to mind. The problem, I think, lies more in AoE burst potential. =/

I am currently trying this in WvW out:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpCtlpxUNcrNitBdyakDUPkfsySGghB-TFiAABJcIACS9HC3fAgTAgM6DCT5XHPBA2UCSKAImGB-w

I played the respective PvP version the last 2 days in hotjoin:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpCtlpxUNcrNitBdyakDUPkfsySGghB-TJRHwAp3fIZZABnCAAPBAA

It requires much practice, because you try to hold chaos armor up as much as possible. Done right you can for each ethereal field (chaos storm and null field) create 2 times chaos armor with the proper weapon swamping and combo finishing.

The results were mixed. Some players didn’t let themselves get fooled, other complained about the constant torment and confusion stacks. The reapplication of conditions in this build is quite high. Just you won’t ever stuck much bleeds.

Also I ran into a bunker guardian and had no chance to defeat him. He couldn’t defeat me either. However, one time I was attacked on point by a S/D thief and this one bunker guardian, and he went down very quickly, because he had a more offensive mindset and attacked me even with confusion stacks on him. I managed to finish him and the thief was running.

I also had epic fails, especially against glass ele and unexpected thief bursts.

And yes I know, you want to tell me that blinding befuddlement should be changed. I am not doing that though. I will keep imagining this trait is worth it and be ignorant to any criticism about that, because I like the idea of it

Disclaimer: I’m pretty new at PvP and not particularly skilled

Before seeing this thread, I replaced Illusionary Personality with Main the Disillusioned in an otherwise generic pvp power shatter build. Enemy players almost always move, so the torment does well.

Conditions haven’t been very effective for me in general. I consider the Torment a bonus.

On balance, Maim the Disillusioned seems to do better. I’m running staff and GS with Runes of the Eagle. Sigils of Fire and Purity.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Frifox! Where art thou!? I need numbers!

Specifically: How much condition damage do you need for respectable damage? 1300? 1500?

@Veruah: That’s an interesting spread, but two things jump out at me. Firstly, Carrior amulet is pretty bad for Mesmer, when traiting either power or condition damage you need precision either way. Secondly, the heal mantra bothers me. I understand the reasoning: Mender’s Purity to cleanse condis, but the actual healing amount is so low that I’m not certain it’s enough sustain.

Other than that, it looks pretty interesting. I made some slight changes mostly around the runes/sigils and I’m almost positive the pistol will outdamage the offhand sword here (as the pistol does both power/condition damage).

With this, the scepter/pistol would be for single targets where the staff, shatters, and mantra heal would dish out AoE damage.

Edit: @Duck that’s a very interesting alternative there and I definitely see potential, but having two mantras could end up being a hindrance in the middle of a fight. Decoy/Mirror Images could work in MoConcentration’s place though.

What’s Dom I for? Im just curious, you dont have a lot of power in the build.

I’m just going to jump right into this.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRArc8PFVqtQNOqhbtR4NoTvhWcCUfji8xSFAA-TJxHwAu2f4YZAxPBAAnEAA

This is a build damage then burst build. Using 3 forms of stealth, high up time on endo regen, phantasm’s low cooldowns, using 2 blocks on low cooldown, healing or condition removal on shatter, and of course confusion/torment on shatter.

Build conditions using Sp/Sw use #2 and use #3. Try and force your opponent to use condition removal. At the same time build up 3 phantasm’s (use #5, #7, and #8 in my build) wait for off hand sword #5 to come off cooldown. Burst with scepter #3, hopefully block with #2. Next if all phantasm’s are up F1 if not try to get sword #4 for 3rd clone then you want to F1. Next step is burst go time! Right after F1, switch to Sw/Tor decoy (#9 on my build), Torch #5, Sword #3 leap to target, Sword #2 plus F2.
Then repeat.

Keep in mind this isn’t going to be shatter, shatter, shatter, and then shatter. This style of play should be like a dance. Dodge, block, stealth, dodge, block, and stealth. Combat should flow. Anyway take look and try it!

For anyone favoring Sc/Sw, particularly with a claim on Balth runes: Thoughts on trying it with Rune of the Guardian and Mimic? In short, you’re giving up condition damage and burning duration(and the low-health Quickness) for Toughness, Healing Power, and burn on every block, and Mimic can potentially block a lot in quick succession. There is no cooldown on Rune of the Guardian.

I grant this is less to do with torment, but if you’re gonna run a double block set, may as well look at more favorable options. Also favors Staff (Aegis on Chaos Storm) and Guardian team-ups(group Aegis).

Does Arcane Thievery steal Aegis? Not sure how Unblockable works in that context. Oh look there goes my train of thought…

Ithilwen.1529:

Before seeing this thread, I replaced Illusionary Personality with Main the Disillusioned

Thanks for mentioning this. Mostly cause it gave me an idea on addressing this

skcamow.3527:

The primary issue with builds using maimed that has been discussed a lot on the forum is the lack of burst potential. That being the case, I think that issue has to be resolved for a build using maimed to be considered “viable”.

So I decided to try helseth’s build 4/4/0/0/6 (so halting strike instead of 20% MW dmg) with a few tests vs a heavy golem. With no vulnerability and only the might from shatters, a 3 clone MW crits for about 1,300 and non-crit for 700 per clone vs a heavy golem. 47% crit chance. So an average of about 1k. IP would add another one of those hits. With Maim and a 3 clone shatter assuming the target is moving for 4 seconds, the torment would do 1632.

Interestingly 3 clone distortion does 3 confusion with IP. 3 clone distortion with Maim does 3 confusion and 3 torment. F2 and F3 reacted as expected.

IP has it’s obvious advantages with low clone MW shatters and instant distortion. Vs light armored targets Maim’s dmg will be relatively lower and of course condi removal can happen. How often you do see people trying to stand still in pvp, especially if you just hit them with a shatter combo? Vulnerability can change these numbers but so can protection/weakness/toughness and if nothing else, it makes the vulnerability harder to remove then it’s still done it’s job. I’ve also watched Helseth play and he’s often not in range for IP to matter for F1-3. Might will affect both of them about equally.

Now for PvP, these numbers can still be somewhat debated as to if one is objectively always better than the other for a specific zerker build but for a hybrid like the one I mentioned or even if someone wants to go a bit tankier, the numbers look like they would start favoring Maim to IP for overall sustain and even sometimes spike. Again, IP still has a lot of utility to it. For WvW where 40% condi duration food exists, I think people should give Maim a serious look. Granted -40% condi food also exists there.

Kadj.6725:

For anyone favoring Sc/Sw, particularly with a claim on Balth runes: Thoughts on trying it with Rune of the Guardian and Mimic? In short, you’re giving up condition damage and burning duration(and the low-health Quickness) for Toughness, Healing Power, and burn on every block, and Mimic can potentially block a lot in quick succession. There is no cooldown on Rune of the Guardian.

I grant this is less to do with torment, but if you’re gonna run a double block set, may as well look at more favorable options. Also favors Staff (Aegis on Chaos Storm) and Guardian team-ups(group Aegis).

Does Arcane Thievery steal Aegis? Not sure how Unblockable works in that context. Oh look there goes my train of thought…

Those sound like great build oppositions. You should put them in a build. This is a build challenge post. J@ck@ss! If you tried it. I’ll beat you died once and rage quit. In pvp it’s not always about killing. Sometime its all about pressure. Doing my rotations i can keep 5 to 12 confusion/torment. Scepter #3 and #2 with 2 strong shatters. With great clone regen. This has so much pressure. If you use SoE for the heal, you’ll have regen from phantasms, regen off SoE, and on shatters. All passive! Use SoE take all clones off cooldown. Btw if you time it right you can spike 16 torment and 15 confusion, but only if image hits before shatter.

Sorry for the rant. I had a buddy enter vent when i first started to post. Forgot my mouse button push to talk was also page back in firefox. Lost the post didn’t want to lay everything out again. So I made it short.

Most of the listed builds above i’ve tried. MtD was the trait i was looking forward to play with. Well it sucks. Shatter condition builds suck, even with torment damage with conditions is slow. In PvP power shatter out performs condition shatter. So the theory behind this build is to have a strong defense so you can ramp up your damage.

First time trying my hand at building something out of scratch and not just adjusting pre-existing builds, so it might be completely bonkers. Would a hybrid build like this be viable at all or would it be a complete waste of time/resources?

Hybrid Torment

Right. I’m not too keen on Uraydia’s decision to insult me over a simple suggestion/question, but I did decide to test my rune idea out. The problem is… I am realistically not a good indicator of viability. I’m out of practice, and wasn’t really spectacular in practice besides; I suck at rotations, I press wrong buttons all the time(HAHA EAT STUN… where did I get all this HP from?).

So, with that said: Here’s what counts for me consistently being second “best” on my team across a couple hotjoin maps, as of the last map.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArcWlknpNtlpxTNcrNCrBh6uslfSyBEgSGirB-TZhFwAAOCAC3fIxpA4wDAwZZAA

A post-testing version will be at the bottom.

Why Celestial?
I really want there to be no “terrible” moves to make. When I hit F1, what I expect to happen is a somewhat decent immediate burst(on staff, supplemented by Flame Burst), followed by conditions doing more overall. When I’m sitting back and letting a phantasm fight, I want the phantasm to be doing okay damage, with their crit bleeds adding something meaningful. As a side benefit, between Celestial and the rune, I’m capable of a pretty sweet 8k heal.

In hindsight, I should have reversed my sigil choices; Scepter was always my first push, and Staff was my second. Dampening their heals with Poison would have done me some good.

No mimic?
I think Mimic is better in the hands of someone more used to pvp than I – I think it’s still worth testing. My problem is I was always too slow to trigger it, eating pretty much a full longbow ranger rotation before it even occurred to me. I also felt like something was getting through the blocks too often… Traited necro wells would have been a good contender, but I didn’t see any necros. SO, I switched to Mirror Images, for all the reasons you would normally pick Mirror Images over Mimic.

Shattered Concentration
I love this trait most of the time.
It felt useless here.
I like having super-augmented shatters, but I wasn’t running into any fights where it felt like the boons were stacked against me, as much as repeated 3v1s.
I would consider moving the 2 points here over into Chaos, and picking up Debilitating Dissipation.

Arcane Thievery
Wow, this skill sucks. Great on paper, but terrible amidst a meta that favors classes that are really good at throwing AoE Blind around. I’d say switch it for Null Field.

Illusionary Elasticity
…Not a lot of staff autoattacks from me, so this was a bit wasted. Illusionary Invigoration is probably the way to go.

Overall
Meh. It’s hard to feel confident in any build knowing your own weaknesses as a player. I will say that I think I’m starting to pull away from Scepter; 8 stacks of torment seem great and all, but 5 of those stacks are single target, and not necessarily the target you want to hit – The number of Rock Dogs and Parrots I saw affected by Torment left me rather disheartened. I did like the double block+rune, but it’s a tough question whether it was really worth it… and in a non-1v1, there is almost no defense once you blow F4. Mirror Images definitely helped bring in the damage – and for the moment, I still rather like Celestial stats(no need to repeat the other thread’s discussion though, I’ll probably change my tune if I try something else).

Here’s the modified version, as per the above notes(but holding on to Scepter for now):
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArcWlknpUtlpxTNcrRSrBZqUg6tcmeSqAUyPUNA-TZhFwAAeAAC3f4wRAIxpAwZZAA

Also, I’m not really sure what to do about Blade Training. Phantasms could probably be a good boost to damage with Fury, but as this build relies on blocking, the lower cooldown probably doesn’t hurt(if it even helps… our bugs leave me unsure about everything these days). I’ve been very tempted to play with Retaliatory Shield(supplemented with Confusing Cry), but with deliberately low power, I’m not sure it would do anything meaningful.

Kadj.6725:

Right. I’m not too keen on Uraydia’s decision to insult me over a simple suggestion/question, but I did decide to test my rune idea out. The problem is… I am realistically not a good indicator of viability. I’m out of practice, and wasn’t really spectacular in practice besides; I suck at rotations, I press wrong buttons all the time(HAHA EAT STUN… where did I get all this HP from?).

So, with that said: Here’s what counts for me consistently being second “best” on my team across a couple hotjoin maps, as of the last map.

his I was always too slow to trigger it, eating pretty much a full longbow ranger rotation before it even occurred to me. I also felt like something was getting through the blocks too often… Traited necro wells would have been a good contender, but I didn’t see any necros. SO, I switched to Mirror Images, for all the reasons you would normally pick Mirror Images over Mimic.
uild knowing your own weaknesses as a player. I will say that I think I’m starting to pull away from Scepter; 8 stacks of torment seem great and all, but 5 of those stacks are single target, and not necessarily the target you want to hit – The number of Rock Dogs and Parrots I saw affected by Torment left me rather disheartened. I did like the double block+rune, but it’s a tough question whether it was really worth it… and in a non-1v1, there is almost no defense once you blow F4. Mirror Images definitely helped bring in the damage – and for the moment, I still rather like Celestial stats(no need to repeat the other thread’s discussion though, I’ll probably change my tune if I try something else).

Here’s the modified version, as per the above notes(but holding on to Scepter for now):
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArcWlknpUtlpxTNcrRSrBZqUg6tcmeSqAUyPUNA-TZhFwAAeAAC3f4wRAIxpAwZZAA

Uhmm. Excuse me, when I was reading his post I wondered why he felt he needed to insult you. /smh

I think we can probably keep mesmer theorycrafting rather civil, ladies and gents.

Anyhow, I have played a little bit with the build I posted above with a few minor alterations between matches. Here’s what I have to report:

1. As stated by Chaos above it really needs crit chance. This is the single largest glaring hole in the build and I am not for sure how to accurately fix it, or if it is even possible. I am open to any suggestions.
2. I actually really like Moa for this. I mostly use it on professions I think will have great condi cleanse and it shuts them down really, really fast. Stacked torment and confusion through scepter skills and a shatter just melt them.
3. You are quite glassy if you try to actually facetank people. Staff offers good mobility and the double block setup can let your survive long enough to get several good condi ticks in, but when the hits actually land they land hard. The mobile nature of the defense in this build made it hard for me to really hold down or capture points vs more than 1 enemy, but if I had a friendly with me I felt like I was a great asset.
4. Trait changes: dropped Compounding Power for longer Confusion duration at times. I don’t really have a strong opinion on if one is clearly better than the other at this time. I also had good success with dropping Deceptive Evasion for Retaliatory Shield. While it goes against almost every build relying on shatters to not have DE, I never really felt like I lacked illusions to feed to my shatters. Whenever an offensive shatter was up in combat I almost always had at least two illusions ready and could easily produce the third with a weapon or utility skill.
5. I tried all of the different heal skills and I think I agree with Chaos – Mantra is not the way to go. The tried and true Ether Feast seems to just be straight up better.

Would love to hear how everyone else’s build is holding up!

TekknoTroll.9703:

First time trying my hand at building something out of scratch and not just adjusting pre-existing builds, so it might be completely bonkers. Would a hybrid build like this be viable at all or would it be a complete waste of time/resources?

Hybrid Torment

Hybrid builds are in a very bad place right now (what isnt). I’ll considered writing something up.

Kadj.6725:

Here’s the modified version, as per the above notes(but holding on to Scepter for now):
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArcWlknpUtlpxTNcrRSrBZqUg6tcmeSqAUyPUNA-TZhFwAAeAAC3f4wRAIxpAwZZAA

I love the concept of blocks and burning from Runes of the Guardian, but at 1.5 seconds per block without mimic, it just seems like a waste of rune space…

been running this type of build for over a month off and on.

It can work in PvP and “small duels” in WvW.

Works just fine in PvE even dungeons if you want.
My general Set up.

Staff + Scepter / X

0/20/20/0/30

Staff + IE = more conditions = more dot = more boons (only from your auto attack but at least its better than some of the other options for Master teir)

DE – must have for any sort of torment pressure.

Mirror Images – See DE

Problems the build has.

Scepter doesn’t hit very hard and its a slow and easy to interrupt / screw up the auto chain.

Confusion is neutered as kitten in WvW and PvP. (i can get 6-10k dmg from confusion stacks in PvE which equates to maybe 2k with some luck in PvP with optimal gear)

Food in WvW … its an issue for any condition build.

Staff – doesnt hit very hard and but gets the most mileage out of a condition / hybrid build

Slow to start hard to keep going – Condition clears suck and can halt your dps.

Dont expect to bunker, you’ll almost always need a buddy in sPvP to let this build have its full effect.

Warriors – Cleansing Ire is an issue for this set up in a huge way.

I tried the build I posted here a bit more. In PvP hotjoin it actually works quite well and I might soon do the unthinkable and carry it over to SoloQ. Hope my rating doesn’t drop further^^

I’ll try to summarize my experiences with a simple pro and cons list:

pro

• good confusion and torment stacking → can render foe helpless
• quick restacking of conditions
• high chaos armor uptime via blast and leap finishing ethereal fields
• if used clever, can withstand pressure from three players for a significant time
• Several ways for (relatively) save finishing: Blinding via signet of midnight, Phase Retreat + Blink, Distortion, The Prestige
• good condition cleanse

cons

• less damage against lesser active targets (read – AI builds, bunkers)
• low armor for a condi build → unexpected burst is very lethal
• high skill cap → minor rotation mistake can mean certain death
• relies on chaos armor for defense and survivability
• low bleed stacking
• few crowd control conditions
• Blinding Befuddlement sucks, but I refuse to change it

Just as an exercise in brainstorming and playing around with builds I,ll throw this hybrid into the pot. Untested, untried and in all probability underwhelming it centres on spamming burning, bleeding and vulnerability. The 100% condi duration is not only for the damaging conditions but also applies to the control effects on sword eg , immobilize 4s (easier to land a shatter or a chaos storm ) , vulnerability, blind and cripple in general. Feel free to rip into it.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhQQNAW8flknpMtdqxGNcrNSpBh6zkmmSyAUhS+iyB-TViGABFtPAAPBAHV/J3LCQUKBFSJ0KLMAlyn10NEAABYmzMZWmBDdoDdoDdoVmDdozcmlCAidVA-w

@TyPin
I have been theorycrafting (no real testing involved yet) on a build that maximizes chaos armor uptime as well. What i come up with is some sort of glamour/condi shatter hybrid.
Link: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7alknpMtlqxVNcrNitBZyOUCUHkfsySGghB-T1CXABqoDYAlBvoZQAlQMp+zdXEgHUCCgSkDUas3+DC+EAIFAETjA-w

Dont mind the gear, I’m still trying to balance out the stats. I might just go full rabid though if its too much headache.

The build uses Staff as main weapon for condi pressure and superior mobility, only switch to Scepter/Pistol for burst dmg. In fact, I usually time the Scepter block #2 when I’m on Staff to make it even more surprise for the opponent. Chaos Storm, Feedback, and Null Field can all be used to defend as well as area denial, forcing opponent to move thus amplifying the Torment dmg. Also, the instant blind from glamor is good to negate 1 hit burst if u can see it coming.

blackbolt.8160:

Kadj.6725:

Here’s the modified version, as per the above notes(but holding on to Scepter for now):
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArcWlknpUtlpxTNcrRSrBZqUg6tcmeSqAUyPUNA-TZhFwAAeAAC3f4wRAIxpAwZZAA

I love the concept of blocks and burning from Runes of the Guardian, but at 1.5 seconds per block without mimic, it just seems like a waste of rune space…

I am inclined to agree, but compared to Balthazar I feel like it’s superior(stats aside). Blowing a heal for a burn doesn’t really do it for me. Good Mimic use(again, only removed for my own lack of competence) would probably make it perform much better. (The elementalist trainer in HotM usually managed to get about 6s of burning total.)

I think the real question is whether it’s worth it to use runes for burning at all, Mimic aside. With my build, it’s about 1600 damage with burn-on-heal in what I suspect is a small AoE. 512 damage for burn-on-block instead, non-AoE(and therefore, “can be stolen by pets and rune pets”). As I don’t like blowing heals for utility purposes outside of PvE or (with a tonic) WvW, neither of these seem all that worthwhile.

I think what I’ll look at next is bolstering my build’s physical aspect; the torment will really just be icing on the cake, but I’m interested in Fury and gaining Might. With no need to maintain blocks, I’ll probably reevaluate weapon choices altogether.

StickerHappy.8052:

What’s Dom I for? Im just curious, you dont have a lot of power in the build.

Since Veruah had decided to go with the Mind Wrack boost, I didn’t think it was necessary to change it. I’m not 100% positive on the specifics, but I think that because the build has lower power, it’d be pretty good to have the trait there to have mind wrack shatters that weren’t laughable.

Out of curiosity, anyone know how much does Torment do with no condition dmg? Can we get a little mathing here for 0 condi – 500 condi – 100 condi – 1500 condi – 2000?

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Out of curiosity, anyone know how much does Torment do with no condition dmg? Can we get a little mathing here for 0 condi – 500 condi – 100 condi – 1500 condi – 2000?

Wiki seems to have the right of it:
(0.0375 * Condition Damage) + 31.875 per stack per second at level 80.

So, a base of 31.875.
500 cdmg: 50.625
1000 cdmg: 69.375
1500 cdmg: 88.125
2000 cdmg: 106.875

…Per stack, per second, and double ticks when moving.