Guild Wars 2

Honestly, how do mesmers survive in pug matches when there is an opposing good thief? Of course no pug team will peel for the mesmer. I feel like any time there is a good thief around, the game is basically a 5v4 since it only takes seconds for a thief to kill me. Maybe it’s a l2p issue, but please help me out if it is.

Try something that’s not power shatter.

PU condie, maim shatter, lockdown, and phantasm builds all are able to handle thieves far more effectively than power shatter.

Phantrupt, 6, 6, 0 2

You can pressure them with your phants and lock them down with your dazes/stuns. Out pressure them, and catch them out basically.

These days im running GS sw/pi

Nah, dont swap build just because of thief. Every build/class has its counters and its stupid to swap because of that. Granted, thief is a bit of a harder counter than other counters. Shatter is the most viable build and if you’ll wanna compete, you have to use shatter. If you want, you can swap, but thats not something I would recommend doing.

Basically dealing with thieves in pugs is kinda weird. I have some issues with this vs decent thieves (usually just dodging the steal will allow you to win against decent thieves, but if he gets a surprise open on you, then thats a different story. Also, decent doesnt mean good. Good thieves you can’t do much about, you can only ask for peels, thats it. A good thief will never die to a mesmer unless they’re being greedy.) and I asked Helseth for help. My problem was that I was not disengaging properly and I’m now

You’ve gotta practice kiting locations and all that stuff, keep an eye out on the map so you know where the thief is at all times. If you don’t see him, its better to be safe than sorry. Get on a spot on the map where if he steals to you it will fail (basically wherever ports are gonna fail) Then if he misses his steal hes not gonna be that much of a threat (He’ll still be able to kill you ofc, but it wont be as easy as if he got steal because he wont have plasma and you wont have 10000 poison on yourself). You should then also note that you’re safe for like 35 seconds from getting stolen from. Still, learn kiting locations and kite if you know your team will kill the thief. If not, disengage – stealth and blink out, run to somewhere so that once you are unstealthed you are no longer visable to the thief.

Let me try my best to explain why each of those builds do wonder agaisnt thieves in general. I don’t really care if I’m overdoing it, but I like to give the full thing (from me, as best as possible) as much as I can!

DISCLAIMER: Much of my arguement is still speculative and is subjected to correction. In other words, I don’t know much about mesmer vs thief gameplay.

Know that the core mechanic for thieves is to quickly take down enemies and then find some other poor lost soul for them to take out, Assassin’s Creed style. Essentially it’s why thieves have lots of good stealth, powerful bursts, and unique ways to dodge potentially fatal attacks from enemies. While this makes them formidable foes, they can’t stay in a prolonged fight. They are innately squishy and if the fight drags on (assuming no outside interruptions), the thief becomes vulnerable each moment.

From what I understood from my matches, thieves trump over Power Shatter mesmers because they can simply evade the frequent 10 second spike bursts. Not only that, but in this partcular fight, mesmers don’t have a lot of defense agaisnt a thief and this sentence is just the blurb of it. Thieves can infamously reset fights if they want to with their stealth and then come back to restart and win this time. A Power Shatter mesmer’s defense (shatter invulerability and 2 stealth skills) don’t amount enough for us to take them on at equal footing.

These builds help out to beat up thieves 1v1:

Prismatic Understanding Condition – Mesmers have stealth too! Only this time we get 60% chance of defensive boons and a buttload of stealth! In this build, a mesmer’s 3-4 stealth (max if taking Torch 4, Decoy, Veil (it’s the line stealth), and Mass Invisibility) is a significant amount to a thief’s 2 stealth skills. Even though one’s a healing/prolonged stealth utility skill for a thief, a mesmer can simply pop in and out of stealth while being defensive and inflicting conditions. And conditions are sustained damage attacks which the thieves can’t handle neatly. I’ll get to the sustained damage part later. The stealth isn’t the only defensive part for the PU Condi. Staff skills give Chaos Armor and the Scepter skills give defensive blocks. With these, you give no leeway for thieves to use their coup de grace.

Shatter Condition – Now with Maim the Disillusioned, we’ve become the masters of Torment. Thieves pride themselves in moving around the battlefield like a maniac. If we give them a condition that doubles the damage because they move, then their core mechanic is under threat. Unlike power shatter, where they rely on a single powerful burst, shatter effects are consistenly sustaining damage. Plus unlike power shatter, we gain block skills and an extra stealth skill to guard ourselves against them, assuming Scepter and Torch. The Staff skills help because they give out conditions and a good niche of Chaos Armor. It’s a more offensive version unlike the PU build, but an equally potent one.

Lockdown – If a thief can’t do anything, it’s a sucky thief. And this is what our lockdown has an advantage against thieves in general. We have 5 lockdown skills: 2 from our weapon sets, 2 from our mantra, and 1 from our shatter. That’s more than enough for us to interrupt the thief and make them truly vulnerable. Our best defense against bursty thief, in this particular build, is also a full on offense. If one traits Chaotic Interruption, we not only root them but give out another condtion where they can’t maneuver much. With these, they become sitting ducks if they’re not careful. What not better way to do than to make sure that their skill sets useless like fish?

Power Phantasm – The classic phantasm and the reason I love using this build against thieves. This is the reciprocal to the Power Shatter, but our ‘burst’ damage comes from our phantasms. The key tactic to a phantasm user is to let our phantasms do the work and we just fend for themselves. A ‘Pure Phantasm’ build, which has Sword+Sword/Scepter+Pistol, has the two most powerful phantasms in the mesmer kitten nal, 2 blocks from each weapon set, and other fun utilities that we can use to counterattack. A ‘Offensive Version’ helps as the phantasms do damage and we can dodge roll/stealth whatever we want. If the thief attempts to restart the fight, the phantasms will be there waiting.

If I didn’t explain well, I understand. Much of it’s a summarized blurb of why these things are good against thieves.

Jurica.1742:

You should then also note that you’re safe for like 35 seconds from getting stolen from.

You must mean 20 seconds, since thieves generally have that traited.

Realistically, avoiding a thief as a power shatter mesmer is a full time job. Yes, it’s doable…but it’s absolutely not fun to spend your entire match dodging the thief hunting for you. There are things you can do to make it easier, but even a decent thief is going to make life miserable for you.

Agree with Pyro. Obviously to each his own, and if you’re able to handle Thieves in a GC Power Shatter build despite playing only in PUGs, then more power to you!

However, when someone comes here asking for help with Thieves in a PUG, where peels simply can not realistically relied upon, you’re not really helping this person much (IMHO) by having them beat their head against a brick wall. The simple fact is it is not simply a L2P issue, it’s a well-known hard counter, and one of the hardest counters in the game. (Possibly less so after the upcoming patches.)

I have simply never felt that I was a key member of a PUG as a P-Shatter anyway. Quite oppositely, if there is a competent Thief on the enemy team, or a heavy Condie-using profession/build then I felt mostly like dead weight. Power Shatter only works when you can get the (rather infrequent and failure-prone) bursts off, and it has to be coordinated with your team to be most effective. Then it can be among the deadliest bursts in the game, and hence the reason why it is the most effective Mesmer build in organized team play.

In PUGs, however, playing PU Power or Condie, or MtD Shatter, or of course lockdown builds can make you easily as useful, but most often more useful than playing P-Shatter. With lockdown you’re also practicing a highly competitive build, but IMO it’s also the hardest of the above mentioned 3 to successfully counter Thieves with.

Also note, it shouldn’t always be your aim to actually kill a Thief. Simply drawing the fight out, and being able to fight back effectively while doing so, can greatly reduce the level of frustration. Especially in group fights when Thieves see a Mesmer that is always their first target, because they hope you’re GC Shatter and dead or running far away within 2-4 seconds. What they hate the most is being exposed for too long, which inevitably results in them being made the primary target for your team, and a very quick death for the Thief. So between lockdowns, stealth, enough armor/healing/counters to take a few hits and live you can make the Thieves life very hard.

You will also notice that good Thieves will quickly stop making you the #1 priority target, because they realize that a not-so-squishy Mesmer is actually very slippery and pretty hard to kill without getting yourself ganked by his team in the process. (That and they hate Torment or being locked down in group fights. ;-) )

Windwalker.7421:

You will also notice that good Thieves will quickly stop making you the #1 priority target, because they realize that a not-so-squishy Mesmer is actually very slippery and pretty hard to kill without getting yourself ganked by his team in the process. (That and they hate Torment or being locked down in group fights. ;-) )

This is very true. When a thief comes after you and gets a face full of torment the first go around, they’re usually a bit more cautious the next time.

Omg I love fighting Thieves. At first ( when I played Power Shatter ) I was terrified of fighting them. Then I tried condi PU for awhile. Utilizing Confusion stacks, most thieves went down in seconds when they fought me. However I recently switched to Lockdown and let me tell you! I love fighting the tricky insects!

With the amount of interrupts, and dazes, they go down so easily! I think shatter is the hardest build to use against a thief, but when it comes to the other builds, especially lockdown IMO, they are nothing to FEAR anymore, and are quite easy to kill!

Ok Photinous, don’t listen too much to all these “change your build” comments. Yes, MtD and lockdown builds do better against thieves, but they don’t always offer the same advantages: MtD is useless in team fights when a cele warrior or elementalist is present, and lockdown lacks burst and sacrifices either Decoy or Portal for Mantra of Distraction. So if you like power shatter, keep playing power shatter: if you play it right, you’ll be a huge asset.

Now, thieves in soloq can be a pain in the kitten. There is not much you can do about it. You can practice a lot by dueling thieves (learn to interrupt their stealth combo and to avoid their openers), but you’ll still be at a serious disadvantage if the thief you face is not straight up bad.

What you want to do is:
a) Never duel a thief. You’ll get killed
b) Trait for Far-reaching manipulations. Don’t use your Blink aggressively unless you’re confident you can down him or at least make the vamp rune proc. If the thief is one you and you have no other CD left, blink as far as you can, and he won’t be able to follow you with Steal (he might follow you with shadow step however).
c) Stay close to your clones, and dodge when you expect a BS. The thief will be revealed by your on-dodge clone
d) Use the terrain: when you’re waiting for a burst, AAing on the side of a team fight and you know the thief is around, get to a place where the thief can’t port to. My favorite spots: the scaffholder on Mine (you can jump on it at a certain place without taking the ramp) and the excavating machines on Quarry.

Well yeah, evading a thief is no easy job, its his job to make it hard for you. While yes, sometimes in soloq you dont get any support and its hard but then its not your fault. Your team is just bad then. Most of the time, by proper positioning, tracking cds and disengaging you can handle most soloq thieves well. I still dont think its worth swapping to some other build. You are gonna have an easier time against thieves perhaps but then your effectivenes in teamfights and overall is gonna drop. Lockdown being the exception, you can do somewhat well but presuming you’re running GS, it will still be less effective than shatter. The trade isn’t worth it.
Its just how things are and with practice you can make it easier. The biggest thing is to just stay calm, kite around, disengage and not waste CD. You should get peels from your team though. Most people just give up when a thief attacks them which is a bad thing to do, its not that hard of a counter.

I have to disagree with Sorel and Jurica on my behalf, regarding Lockdown. I main Lockdown and when it comes to team fights I cannot stress how many times I’ve turned certain losing fights around for my teams favor, by the use of interrupts and AoE dazing. I utilize staff and sword/focus. A skilled lockdown player can offer team fights many unique benefits that a P-Shatter cannot. Lockdown is the hardest build to master but it also brings tons of rewards for skilled play. A master lockdown Mesmer is (IMO) truly
More terrifying than any shatter Mesmer.

(In 1v1 situations we are equally terrifying when played right, compared to the the bursty P-shatter Mesmer. I have downed enemy players in a matter of a few seconds. Applying my interrupts correctly and dazes, Sometimes I can pretty much shut a player down from even reacting at all, while damaging a player to the point of zero HP. Now I may not be able to burst him/her down faster than a P-shatter Mesmer, but downing a enemy player as a Lockdown Mesmer isn’t to far off regarding the time it takes to kill that player. It just takes skill and timing your dazes/interrupts. Lockdown Mesmers burst potential is not like a P-shatter but nonetheless we are a power build, and can hit like a truck.)

I enjoy being able to interrupt a stomp or even a ress when needed. Or even interrupting a Necromancer from going into Lich form. Most of all lockdown really shines when I can help shutdown enemy players during team fights in order for my team to effectively carry out their roles with ease. Even if the other team has a pesky thief on their side, I usually don’t have to worry about facing them. Major problem I have faced as a lockdown Mesmer is when the enemy team realizes what kind of Mesmer Iam, I become their main target from time to time during team skirmishes.

Now in no way am I saying screw P-Shatter, but realize that for now it may be more difficult to face a thief using that build (if you are using it). My advice is play what you enjoy. But do not neglect trying other builds out. Lockdown in particular is a unique Mesmer build that offers unique benefits to groups. I for one enjoy the benefits more than what a P-Shatter build offers.

Purecura.1795:

I have to disagree with Sorel and Jurica on my behalf, regarding Lockdown. I main Lockdown and when it comes to team fights I cannot stress how many times I’ve turned certain losing fights around for my teams favor, by the use of interrupts and AoE dazing. I utilize staff and sword/focus. A skilled lockdown player can offer team fights many unique benefits that a P-Shatter cannot. Lockdown is the hardest build to master but it also brings tons of rewards for skilled play. A master lockdown Mesmer is (IMO) truly
More terrifying than any shatter Mesmer.

I’m not saying that lockdown can’t be effective in experienced hands. But the role you play is completely different. Regarding team fights, the role of the lockdown is to offer constant CC pressure, while shatter is more of a bursty plus-oner. And, maybe that’s just my opinion, but mesmer really shines in conquest in this roamer role. The worst part of lockdown is you don’t play Portal (or no Decoy and very slim chances of survival). It’s totally fine in soloq, but a lot of mesmers like the complexity Portal brings, and telling OP to switch builds and give that up just to counter thieves is bad advice.

That being said, I love the lockdown gameplay, and I look forward to the trait changes. Shatter mesmer will include more shatter elements, and lockdown more shatter elements, and the real power of the mesmer will crush our enemies.

In unranked arena and practice mode you can pretty much count on the fact that your team is very unlikely to be organized enough to peel, cleanse, or otherwise protect you as a p-shatter Mesmer. You can sometimes find one or two people on your team whom you can synergize well with, and then you’ll have a huge blast as a power shatter Mesmer, no doubt. Unfortunately, those times are far and few between, and you’ll mostly pull your hair out.

As for being useless in the other specs, that rubbish. Plain rubbish. In unorganized play the very last thing that determines your teams success will be your build. In the extremely rare event that both teams are well balanced, playing perfectly, making no tactical mistakes and playing as a perfectly organized unit, only then could this rather small factor even remotely come into play.

Most unranked arena wins are by a fairly large margin, and only very rarely is it even a close match. Even in those cases, more often than not I have been a top ranked player on my team as MtD, PU, or lockdown. It doesn’t matter which build, it matters if you know the map, don’t do obviously stupid things, and exploit the mistakes your opponents make (which vary from build to build!). This rarely has anything to do with build in unranked arena.

For example as a PU Mesmer you can often tie up 2-3 enemy players, have them keep chasing you, or just fight you on/near a point for a minute or more. Perfect! If your team doesn’t exploit this huge advantage, then it wasn’t your build, it was your team!

As stated above, as a lockdown/interrupt Mesmer is highly competitive even in organized group PvP, so you’ll certainly be as much of an asset to your team as any Mesmer build in unranked arena or the like. Due to the fairly unorganized slugging fest that most of unranked arena games are, your ability to interrupt the high-damage combos of your enemies can greatly turn the tide of battle. (Not to mention interrupting resses, locking down runners, and being a general nuisance that no one likes to fight with. :-) )

Power Shatter is an awesome build!

Clearly the most competitive build we have at top tier play.

…but below that, we have many other choices that might fit you more and certainly will perform just as well in less organized play modes.

Half the people in this thread:
Here are some other builds and playstyles that allow you to handle thieves much more effectively.

The other half:

No need to change your playstyle, here is a list of 5 different things that you’ll need to do to avoid thieves.

buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut good thieves will still kill you and make your life miserable though, forgot to mention that at the start.

Yeah, I don’t think you should change your build either.

If you’re looking to play seriously.. Eh.. “Seriously” then shatter is considered the best for a very good reason, and that reason is why people who play this game for money do not use lockdown or Condi. Thieves are going to be your counter, and while you can do things to make the fight somewhat more manageable its always going to be an uphill climb that isn’t in your favor.

Changing your build is just going to change your problems. Now you have to learn a different role, playstyle, rotations and such just to be better off against one class? Alright, but now you’re countered by Shoutbow and celestial specs. Now you need to find how to make your condition damage stick through AoE cleanses in team fights.

Its still a tradeoff, and you’re still going to have weaknesses, just different ones.

At the most, maybe switching weapons may be a better bet. I dunno if you’re running sword+torch/gs but maybe staff/gs may suite you better for certain enemy compositions.

I think they should just make mesmer phants immune to blind so they can be casted even with blind.

This will maybe help us fair better against thieves.

But then the list of ways to counter Phantasm damage wouldn’t be nearly as long, StickerHappy :-p … <sarcasm>we can’t have that</sarcasm>

Fay.2357:

Half the people in this thread:
Here are some other builds and playstyles that allow you to handle thieves much more effectively.

The other half:

No need to change your playstyle, here is a list of 5 different things that you’ll need to do to avoid thieves.

buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut good thieves will still kill you and make your life miserable though, forgot to mention that at the start.

Great job of excluding parts of what we said to make your point!
I said (you can look in my posts) that swapping build is a trade off in a negative sense. You’re going to be a bit better vs thieves (still countered by them btw!) but you will lose a MASSIVE amount of effectiveness vs other classes, in team fights and so on. Also, thief isnt really your job to handle. Yes – you need to learn those “5 things” to survive longer and to not be just a complete free kill (which if it happens IS your fault, poor cd management, positioning w/e the cause is.) but at the bottom line its your thief buddy or your team that should handle him and peel him from you. You just have to not die instantly so they can do that. If they cant for whatever reason peel, you can also always disengage. Also the “thief is gonna kill me, nothing I can do” mind set is a very crappy one to have. Yes. Its an uphill fight which you shouldnt be taking most of the time. The higher the thief skill level is, the more angled the slope is. You can still climb it very easily at the lower angles which most people face.
I mean, its ok for him to go play condi/lockdown if he wants to, his choice, we’re just trying to tell him all the pros and cons of condi/lockdown and how he can deal with the situation better using the build he is running right now while on the other hand you just told him go condi because thieves will be easier. Thats not the whole picture. Yes. Thieves are easier but everything else will be much harder than it was or much less efficient which is also a big thing he needs to take into consideration.

@Chaos, sw/t is better against thieves than staff because you’ve got stealth and more invulns vs staff which, yes, has more constant pressure from clones which hurts no matter if were in a zerk build or no, but you are an easier target.

StickerHappy.8052:

I think they should just make mesmer phants immune to blind so they can be casted even with blind.

This will maybe help us fair better against thieves.

A better way to put this would be to make it so phantasm summons aren’t considered personal attacks from the mesmer. This would still allow phantasm attacks to be blinded.

With the current way blind works, this would be useful for all phantasms except the duelist, berserker and warden (bah underwater phants). To make it useful against those, blind would have to be updated to affect multi-hit attacks or with a special mesmer phantasm exception, both of which aren’t likely.

On-topic:

• Thieves are currently a strong counter to the meta Power Shatter Build.
• The meta Power Shatter Build was designed with an organized team in mind for peeling and cleansing.
• Likely don’t have peels and cleanses in PUG matches

It is best to not just copy and paste the meta and instead use a build that (1) you’re comfortable with and (2) is designed for the content you’re doing.

I don’t think Power Shatter Build is designed for playing solo in PUG matches. Doesn’t mean you can’t do it and be successful, but I personally believe it is sub-optimal; as has already been expressed in other ways by other members.

Off-topic:
Gentlemen, put away your e-genitals … we’ve had enough of that sort of ****-waving around these forums lately.

Focus on the actual topic and the facts. Otherwise you’re not just reflecting poorly on yourself but wasting everyone else’s time looking at the thread with new content only to find it’s more ****-waving.

I know it’s summer for those of us in the northern hemisphere, but keep your clothes on and stop waving those around.

You can change to PU or some other tankier, more stealth/interrupt centric build to deal better with thieves, but you become a drag to your team in exchange for a more favorable 1v1 match up.

Mesmer is in the same state necro was when mace/hammer warrior were at their dumbest. Generally well off against everything else, but there was this one class that completely dominated the experience for you in any match if they were present.

Thieves will never be balanced so long as stealth and their countless teleports/resets give them all the perks of the best berzerker class damage without any of the risks since they get so many get out of jail free cards. They’ll have to nerf their stealth and accessibility to defenses — they get way too meany defenses far cheaper than what other classes have to pay for similar defenses with way longer cooldowns.

Look at Shadow Step. A double stun breaker with condi clear, double teleport, all in one for the cheap price of a 50 sec cd. Their heals all clear conditions with no traiting, and give either access to spike (stealth) or disengage/damage avoidance (withdraw).

Thieves are a rather condensed class. They don’t need to spread and trait all over to get functioning builds, and the initiative system is a far superior system that allows them to chain skills that are the most useful and not be subject to the effects of chill or interrupts. They are a class virtually immune from the rules applied to everybody else.

And anet seems fine with that because fact is thieves have been a problem since beta. There’s nothing that hasn’t changed since then that hasn’t made them not counter nearly all other berzerker classes except a good mediguard.

So either get a team that supports your mesmer, play stealth/interrupt builds in pugs, or reroll engineer/guard if you want to dump on thieves.

Quick guide:

-Use sword

-Use terrain, there are many spots where steal won’t work

-Try to predict thief and also practice 1v1 vs theives to learn timings

-Daze Heartseeker in black powder

-Use terrain some more

-Try to get Panic strike proc on a clone intead of you

-Use generosity sigil on sword, try to send back weakness or poison

-Use terrain. I mean it, it is so so important.

-Don’t vote for legacy map

If all else fails:
Run to teammates, maybe an engi or a guard
__________________
Personally, i love fighting good thieves in soloq (red levin, chosen, panda, whatever). The game gets really boring if there is no thief in the other team.

SD thief is excluded from this, i hate them.

I used to play a Phantasm build, then swapped to a PU build. Even though those builds are good in 1v1 fights, they’re not that good for teamfights. So I tried the standard shatter build so i could be more useful to my team.
But it got rather annoying when there are 2 thieves in every game just spamming away at you and there’s pretty much nothing u can do against it.

Sure in more organized teams you can have others peeling for you. Which is why i assume the shatter build is better for high rated games.

Then again I hate relying on my team too much. So I tried diffirent builds. Pretty much every other mesmer build beats thieves easily.

Right now i’m trying a MtD build and that one seems to be great so far.
You’re still great for your team because of aoe confusion & torment damage. (less burst but more annoying for the enemy team either forcing them to blow their cleanse or watch them slowly kill themselves.)
But you’ll be able to defend yourself against thieves as well with more stealth & another (deadly) block.

@Jurica:

The problem is that all of the advice, yours included, ultimately boils down to ‘survive long enough that your team can peel’. This works in an organized group, but if you’re playing in a pug, that peel never comes. This means that surviving long enough for the peel is no longer a viable strategy.

The op has said that they play in pug groups. Therefor, advice given to the op should be applicable to their situation. Telling them stuff that only works for a completely different situation is simply unhelpful.

Using terrain depends on the Thief.

If you’re fighting a Sword Thief, terrain is more likely to benefit them more than you since they can LOS you, teleport to you with Infiltrator’s (doesn’t require LOS) and then teleport back to LOSing you again to avoid whatever you try to hit them with.

It gets even worse given how our phantasms get themselves all in a tizzy trying to deal with a target that does this.

Jurica.1742:

@Chaos, sw/t is better against thieves than staff because you’ve got stealth and more invulns vs staff which, yes, has more constant pressure from clones which hurts no matter if were in a zerk build or no, but you are an easier target.

Yea this is the key.

Trouble is Sword/Torch => easier time vs thieves but harder time vs some other classes (ie guardians)
Staff => harder time vs thieves but easier time vs other things

Swings and roundabouts.

In a pug/unorganised/soloq definitely take something like mantra of resolve because you can’t rely on anyone else to help you with conditions.

Quadox.7834:

Personally, i love fighting good thieves in soloq (red levin, chosen, panda, whatever). The game gets really boring if there is no thief in the other team.

SD thief is excluded from this, i hate them.

I agree with the sentiment that fighting thieves as power shatter is one of the most fun things in the game – a game of high mobility, evasion, teleports, and high damage. Yolo, but in this case it’s totally worth it.

But please add P/D perplexity kittens to that list of things I hate (sure a wvw thing) – they’re no fun at all, like mosquitos…

Sebrent.3625:

Using terrain depends on the Thief.

If you’re fighting a Sword Thief, terrain is more likely to benefit them more than you since they can LOS you, teleport to you with Infiltrator’s (doesn’t require LOS) and then teleport back to LOSing you again to avoid whatever you try to hit them with.

It gets even worse given how our phantasms get themselves all in a tizzy trying to deal with a target that does this.

It actually depend on the terrain moreso than the thief. S/D can be really annoying but that begin said, there are many spots to where a thief simply CANNOT teleport (neither can a mesmer). There you can stand and spam greatsword skills and siftstep back and forth to avoid any eventual thief shortbow autos! :P

Curunen.8729:

Jurica.1742:

@Chaos, sw/t is better against thieves than staff because you’ve got stealth and more invulns vs staff which, yes, has more constant pressure from clones which hurts no matter if were in a zerk build or no, but you are an easier target.

Yea this is the key.

Trouble is Sword/Torch => easier time vs thieves but harder time vs some other classes (ie guardians)
Staff => harder time vs thieves but easier time vs other things

Swings and roundabouts.

In a pug/unorganised/soloq definitely take something like mantra of resolve because you can’t rely on anyone else to help you with conditions.

Quadox.7834:

Personally, i love fighting good thieves in soloq (red levin, chosen, panda, whatever). The game gets really boring if there is no thief in the other team.

SD thief is excluded from this, i hate them.

I agree with the sentiment that fighting thieves as power shatter is one of the most fun things in the game – a game of high mobility, evasion, teleports, and high damage. Yolo, but in this case it’s totally worth it.

But please add P/D perplexity kittens to that list of things I hate (sure a wvw thing) – they’re no fun at all, like mosquitos…

Condi remove is not necessary in this meta especially if you run Generosity sigil. If the opponent has a thief + necro condi + engi + condition warrior or something, then you can definately take condition mantra!

Quadox.7834:

Curunen.8729:

Jurica.1742:

@Chaos, sw/t is better against thieves than staff because you’ve got stealth and more invulns vs staff which, yes, has more constant pressure from clones which hurts no matter if were in a zerk build or no, but you are an easier target.

Yea this is the key.

Trouble is Sword/Torch => easier time vs thieves but harder time vs some other classes (ie guardians)
Staff => harder time vs thieves but easier time vs other things

Swings and roundabouts.

In a pug/unorganised/soloq definitely take something like mantra of resolve because you can’t rely on anyone else to help you with conditions.

Quadox.7834:

Personally, i love fighting good thieves in soloq (red levin, chosen, panda, whatever). The game gets really boring if there is no thief in the other team.

SD thief is excluded from this, i hate them.

I agree with the sentiment that fighting thieves as power shatter is one of the most fun things in the game – a game of high mobility, evasion, teleports, and high damage. Yolo, but in this case it’s totally worth it.

But please add P/D perplexity kittens to that list of things I hate (sure a wvw thing) – they’re no fun at all, like mosquitos…

Condi remove is not necessary in this meta especially if you run Generosity sigil. If the opponent has a thief + necro condi + engi + condition warrior or something, then you can definately take condition mantra!

I don’t play power shatter as much as I used to anymore (granted now I’m a solo casual scrub that barely plays as I have drifted away from guilds) and as a mostly solo player I preferred to always take MoR to remove things like immobilise in a tight spot or other crucial conditions such as poison. Allows quick cleanse/dodge out of things like entangle or similar skills and meant I never had to wait on a heal. I’m not too fond of generosity sigils, preferred energy/air on both sets for more single target burst on squishies – seeing as I like fighting thieves I prefer the extra dodge over fire/air and air gives more single target damage.

I found portal horribly cumbersome unless coordinated with a team, and even then with traveler runes and good map awareness/positioning between points it wasn’t too much of a problem to run “manually”.

You dont 1000000% rely on your group @ Pyro. While yes, it is a big + if they can help, as I said, most thieves one will encounter can be dealt with. Also people arent stupid in pugs most of the time. They will peel for you. Its a team game. If you’re put with people that dont peel, means their mmr is meh. If their MMR is meh, most likely enemy team will have meh MMR meaning also the thief. That means a small angle on the slope and that means you will be able to deal with him. I feel like you’re looking at the worst case scenario: arzsi, magic toker, levin… w/e you think is the best thief & rabbit rank team of your own. I still dont see how you could think losing out on so much is worth it having a bit of an easier time against thieves. Thief counters mes no matter which build you’re on. They’re a bit easier on some, but the gained vs given is a very bad ratio. You can also always simply disengage if you find the thief too much. If you disengage and he follows you, you didn’t disengage.
I’m starting to feel like a parrot now.
OP didnt mention anything about wanting a new build. He just said he wanted to survive longer. And a lot of what applies in coordinated teams, often applies in pugs as well. Proper positioning, kiting, disengaging is something you’ll need in coordinated teams and pugs which is what we’ve told him to practice.
@Curu -> 1v1 wise, yes. But teamfights sword is better because it can setup more spikes. It also has stealth to allow you to reposition better ect. I also think its quite a bit nicer in 1v1s now, could be that I just got used to it. I just love the amount of dodges you can bait with ileap and the extra evades from sword. I still play staff on niflhel here and there and I absolutely love it there. I think staff def. helps a lot vs DPS guard but you cna still win with sw/t ofc. The mantra thing is something I used to do but I stopped doing because I got lazy to do my best to avoid condis. I started tanking pindowns a bit again because I was playing with the mantra so I didnt care much.

Jurica just went in.

+1

Thief with runes of vampirism and new trait update that allows them to take up most of shadow arts without the damage loss that they would have seen right now is just going to be dumb.

Expect the nerf pleas to get a lot louder.

Most people in spvp are playing against thieves who right now can’t afford shadow arts, but they will afford it come the trait revamp, and it helps them far more than the mesmer changes help the mesmer in this particular match up.

Jurica.1742:

You dont 1000000% rely on your group @ Pyro. While yes, it is a big + if they can help, as I said, most thieves one will encounter can be dealt with.

No, what you actually said was that you have issues against even decent thieves, and good thieves (and I quote) “You can’t do much about”.

Which is it? Can you deal with most thieves or do you actually have issues with even decent thieves? Pick one.

Jurica.1742:

Also people arent stupid in pugs most of the time. They will peel for you. Its a team game.

Let’s be very clear right now. I’m going to quote from the OP:

Photinous.4628:

Honestly, how do mesmers survive in pug matches when there is an opposing good thief? Of course no pug team will peel for the mesmer.

The OP is asking very explicitly how to deal with thieves in a situation where your team is not peeling for you. Stubbornly repeating ‘just let your team peel’ is merely obstinate, not helpful.

Jurica.1742:

If you’re put with people that dont peel, means their mmr is meh. If their MMR is meh, most likely enemy team will have meh MMR meaning also the thief.

This really isn’t correct. Not peeling isn’t a hallmark of low mmr, it’s a hallmark of an unorganized team…aka a pug. Peeling requires them to be aware of the focus, locate the thief, and peel. This is difficult todo effectively without VoIP, and effective peeling is one of the main distinguishing factors between an organized and unorganized team.

Jurica.1742:

Thief counters mes no matter which build you’re on.

While your previous comments at least contained some nugget of validity, this one is simply off the rails. Nothing about this statement even flirts with reality. There are multiple Mesmer builds, either highly defensive (PU variants) or condie based, or both, that are very hard counters to thief, particularly meta thief builds. Attempting to claim otherwise is nothing but foolish.

Jurica.1742:

You can also always simply disengage if you find the thief too much. If you disengage and he follows you, you didn’t disengage.

This is…cute. Mesmer has one singular way to guarantee a disengage from a determined thief, and that’s portal. All other modes of disengage are directly countered by the mobility in raw speed and access to teleports that thief enjoys over Mesmer. If the thief wants to stick to you, there is absolutely no way to truly disengage without using a portal.

Jurica.1742:

I’m starting to feel like a parrot now.
OP didnt mention anything about wanting a new build. He just said he wanted to survive longer.

What the OP asked for was methods of dealing with thieves without a team peeling for him. For some reason that remains mysterious to me, you’ve decided that ‘methods of dealing with thieves without a team peeling for him’ should mean ‘ways to let your team peel the thief for you’. I’m a bit fuzzy on that logic, so if you could clear it up for me I’d be grateful.

Jurica.1742:

And a lot of what applies in coordinated teams, often applies in pugs as well. Proper positioning, kiting, disengaging is something you’ll need in coordinated teams and pugs which is what we’ve told him to practice.

This is absolutely true, but those methods and tips when applied to a power shatter build culminate in ‘how to survive long enough for your team to peel the thief’.

The OP wants ways to deal with thieves without relying on a peel. This is not effectively possible against a thief (assuming equal skill level) if you’re using a power shatter build. Therefor, the logical step is to recommend other builds that can accomplish the goal stated by the OP.

It’s funny that the OP didn’t actually mention what build he is running. While it’s safe to assume it’s standard shatter, it is amusing that this whole argument about shatter (again guys, really?) got started by people in the thread without the OP ever mentioning what build he is running. He also didn’t really say what his goal was, except vaguely to not die in 2-4 seconds. It’s funny how easy it is for the never ending build argument over shatter to get going.

My 2 cents: The argument over what build is best is seriously dumb, because “best” depends on the goals of the individual player. If your goal is to just never get killed, play PU. If you goal is to 1 shot people, play shatter. If your goal is some reasonable mix of the two, well, on it goes.

Zenith.7301:

Thief with runes of vampirism and new trait update that allows them to take up most of shadow arts without the damage loss that they would have seen right now is just going to be dumb.

Expect the nerf pleas to get a lot louder.

Most people in spvp are playing against thieves who right now can’t afford shadow arts, but they will afford it come the trait revamp, and it helps them far more than the mesmer changes help the mesmer in this particular match up.

Currently most thieves take SA for the condi removal, granted they can’t afford the rest and keep low cool down steal (though skipping sleight of hand only increases the cool down by 6.5s) or give up other things.

With the trait changes they can’t just pick up that one trait. So now they’re going to have to pick the traits that make stealth so powerful. I mean it’s one of the only dependable condition removals they have. I know about shadow step but it is a very long cool down just for a cleanse, especially as it’s one of if not the only stun break they use.

Also we’re going to see mug, panic strikes and executioner all in the same line, all available at the same time, well under current previews.

MSFone.3026:

It’s funny that the OP didn’t actually mention what build he is running. While it’s safe to assume it’s standard shatter, it is amusing that this whole argument about shatter (again guys, really?) got started by people in the thread without the OP ever mentioning what build he is running. He also didn’t really say what his goal was, except vaguely to not die in 2-4 seconds. It’s funny how easy it is for the never ending build argument over shatter to get going.

My 2 cents: The argument over what build is best is seriously dumb, because “best” depends on the goals of the individual player. If your goal is to just never get killed, play PU. If you goal is to 1 shot people, play shatter. If your goal is some reasonable mix of the two, well, on it goes.

Actually, the argument isn’t about which build is best. The argument is moreso over whether or not switching your build to deal with a specific class is a good decision and is the trade off worth it.

Jurica is saying that assuming the OP is running shatter, then they should stick with shatter and accept that thief is a natural counter, but offers ways to help deal with the uneven matchup.

Pyro is merrily twisting Juricas words around and pulling out semantics (Yes, I’m sassing you Pyro) as he argues that power shatter isn’t superior to other builds in this specific situation.

I personally think that changing your build is more of a commitment than people realize, especially if you’re not already used to experimenting with different specs. To be honest, if shatter/lockdown isn’t going to work out I have a hard time justifying playing Mesmer in that scenario over other classes unless the OP only plays Mes. However I do agree that there are plenty of strong pug builds that will work, I just don’t see them as particularly optimal. Maimed shatter is the best bet, but I’m not quite sold on it yet…

Fay.2357:

Jurica.1742:

You dont 1000000% rely on your group @ Pyro. While yes, it is a big + if they can help, as I said, most thieves one will encounter can be dealt with.

No, what you actually said was that you have issues against even decent thieves, and good thieves (and I quote) “You can’t do much about”.

Which is it? Can you deal with most thieves or do you actually have issues with even decent thieves? Pick one.

Jurica.1742:

Also people arent stupid in pugs most of the time. They will peel for you. Its a team game.

Let’s be very clear right now. I’m going to quote from the OP:

Photinous.4628:

Honestly, how do mesmers survive in pug matches when there is an opposing good thief? Of course no pug team will peel for the mesmer.

The OP is asking very explicitly how to deal with thieves in a situation where your team is not peeling for you. Stubbornly repeating ‘just let your team peel’ is merely obstinate, not helpful.

Jurica.1742:

If you’re put with people that dont peel, means their mmr is meh. If their MMR is meh, most likely enemy team will have meh MMR meaning also the thief.

This really isn’t correct. Not peeling isn’t a hallmark of low mmr, it’s a hallmark of an unorganized team…aka a pug. Peeling requires them to be aware of the focus, locate the thief, and peel. This is difficult todo effectively without VoIP, and effective peeling is one of the main distinguishing factors between an organized and unorganized team.

Jurica.1742:

Thief counters mes no matter which build you’re on.

While your previous comments at least contained some nugget of validity, this one is simply off the rails. Nothing about this statement even flirts with reality. There are multiple Mesmer builds, either highly defensive (PU variants) or condie based, or both, that are very hard counters to thief, particularly meta thief builds. Attempting to claim otherwise is nothing but foolish.

Jurica.1742:

You can also always simply disengage if you find the thief too much. If you disengage and he follows you, you didn’t disengage.

This is…cute. Mesmer has one singular way to guarantee a disengage from a determined thief, and that’s portal. All other modes of disengage are directly countered by the mobility in raw speed and access to teleports that thief enjoys over Mesmer. If the thief wants to stick to you, there is absolutely no way to truly disengage without using a portal.

Jurica.1742:

I’m starting to feel like a parrot now.
OP didnt mention anything about wanting a new build. He just said he wanted to survive longer.

What the OP asked for was methods of dealing with thieves without a team peeling for him. For some reason that remains mysterious to me, you’ve decided that ‘methods of dealing with thieves without a team peeling for him’ should mean ‘ways to let your team peel the thief for you’. I’m a bit fuzzy on that logic, so if you could clear it up for me I’d be grateful.

Jurica.1742:

And a lot of what applies in coordinated teams, often applies in pugs as well. Proper positioning, kiting, disengaging is something you’ll need in coordinated teams and pugs which is what we’ve told him to practice.

This is absolutely true, but those methods and tips when applied to a power shatter build culminate in ‘how to survive long enough for your team to peel the thief’.

The OP wants ways to deal with thieves without relying on a peel. This is not effectively possible against a thief (assuming equal skill level) if you’re using a power shatter build. Therefor, the logical step is to recommend other builds that can accomplish the goal stated by the OP.

It’s not really logical. Sure a different build helps with thieves, but it makes you weaker against other stuff. Suggesting a different build is like telling someone to patch kitten in their house by tearing off a piece of the roof. It doesn’t solve anything, just displaces the problem.

The better advice in this thread comes from the posts about kiting, watching the minimap to be aware of the thief, and trying to predict/prevent steal.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Pyro is merrily twisting Juricas words around and pulling out semantics (Yes, I’m sassing you Pyro) as he argues that power shatter isn’t superior to other builds in this specific situation.

This isn’t really true, at least in this situation. My main point is as follows:

The OP is asking specifically for ways to deal with a thief without relying on a team for peeling. Literally every bit of advice Jurica has offered comes with the subtext of ‘so that you live long enough for your team to peel the thief’. This is absurd and unhelpful with respect to what the OP has asked. I’m pointing this out, and originally offered alternative solutions.

cyyrix.6105:

It’s not really logical. Sure a different build helps with thieves, but it makes you weaker against other stuff. Suggesting a different build is like telling someone to patch kitten in their house by tearing off a piece of the roof. It doesn’t solve anything, just displaces the problem.

The better advice in this thread comes from the posts about kiting, watching the minimap to be aware of the thief, and trying to predict/prevent steal.

Again, I feel like half the people in this thread are just completely ignoring what the OP has said. The OP asked for a simple thing: ‘How to deal with thieves without relying on a team to peel.’ That thing was provided, and then subsequently 80 people jumped on going ‘no, no, no, that’s not right. You should do this instead, and here’s how to survive long enough for your team to peel’. The absurdity of this advice is off the charts.

you don’t need people to peel for you, you can shadow your team mates who are laying down aes.

Fay.2357:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Pyro is merrily twisting Juricas words around and pulling out semantics (Yes, I’m sassing you Pyro) as he argues that power shatter isn’t superior to other builds in this specific situation.

This isn’t really true, at least in this situation. My main point is as follows:

The OP is asking specifically for ways to deal with a thief without relying on a team for peeling. Literally every bit of advice Jurica has offered comes with the subtext of ‘so that you live long enough for your team to peel the thief’. This is absurd and unhelpful with respect to what the OP has asked. I’m pointing this out, and originally offered alternative solutions.

cyyrix.6105:

It’s not really logical. Sure a different build helps with thieves, but it makes you weaker against other stuff. Suggesting a different build is like telling someone to patch kitten in their house by tearing off a piece of the roof. It doesn’t solve anything, just displaces the problem.

The better advice in this thread comes from the posts about kiting, watching the minimap to be aware of the thief, and trying to predict/prevent steal.

Again, I feel like half the people in this thread are just completely ignoring what the OP has said. The OP asked for a simple thing: ‘How to deal with thieves without relying on a team to peel.’ That thing was provided, and then subsequently 80 people jumped on going ‘no, no, no, that’s not right. You should do this instead, and here’s how to survive long enough for your team to peel’. The absurdity of this advice is off the charts.

Except he didn’t ask for that, at all. You’re literally making up quotes. If anyone, you need to re-read the post.

He didn’t ask how to duel thieves, he asked how to survive in a match with a good thief. Changing to a build that counters a thief does not help you survive the match…It just displaces the problem off the thief.

cyyrix.6105:

Fay.2357:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Pyro is merrily twisting Juricas words around and pulling out semantics (Yes, I’m sassing you Pyro) as he argues that power shatter isn’t superior to other builds in this specific situation.

This isn’t really true, at least in this situation. My main point is as follows:

The OP is asking specifically for ways to deal with a thief without relying on a team for peeling. Literally every bit of advice Jurica has offered comes with the subtext of ‘so that you live long enough for your team to peel the thief’. This is absurd and unhelpful with respect to what the OP has asked. I’m pointing this out, and originally offered alternative solutions.

cyyrix.6105:

It’s not really logical. Sure a different build helps with thieves, but it makes you weaker against other stuff. Suggesting a different build is like telling someone to patch kitten in their house by tearing off a piece of the roof. It doesn’t solve anything, just displaces the problem.

The better advice in this thread comes from the posts about kiting, watching the minimap to be aware of the thief, and trying to predict/prevent steal.

Again, I feel like half the people in this thread are just completely ignoring what the OP has said. The OP asked for a simple thing: ‘How to deal with thieves without relying on a team to peel.’ That thing was provided, and then subsequently 80 people jumped on going ‘no, no, no, that’s not right. You should do this instead, and here’s how to survive long enough for your team to peel’. The absurdity of this advice is off the charts.

Except he didn’t ask for that, at all. You’re literally making up quotes. If anyone, you need to re-read the post.

He didn’t ask how to duel thieves, he asked how to survive in a match with a good thief. Changing to a build that counters a thief does not help you survive the match…It just displaces the problem off the thief.

What?!??? Nani!???!

You can never avoid 1v1 in a match, so its like a duel right???

Does not help you survive a match? Condition CI good against thief but weak against anything else?

WOW. Please people do some TESTING and a lot of PVP before you come up with outrageous posts!

I think pyro is the only one understanding the OP. y

@Chaos

Yes shatter mesmer isn’t superior in this situation. Why would it?

Fay.2357:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Pyro is merrily twisting Juricas words around and pulling out semantics (Yes, I’m sassing you Pyro) as he argues that power shatter isn’t superior to other builds in this specific situation.

This isn’t really true, at least in this situation. My main point is as follows:

The OP is asking specifically for ways to deal with a thief without relying on a team for peeling. Literally every bit of advice Jurica has offered comes with the subtext of ‘so that you live long enough for your team to peel the thief’. This is absurd and unhelpful with respect to what the OP has asked. I’m pointing this out, and originally offered alternative solutions.

cyyrix.6105:

It’s not really logical. Sure a different build helps with thieves, but it makes you weaker against other stuff. Suggesting a different build is like telling someone to patch kitten in their house by tearing off a piece of the roof. It doesn’t solve anything, just displaces the problem.

The better advice in this thread comes from the posts about kiting, watching the minimap to be aware of the thief, and trying to predict/prevent steal.

Again, I feel like half the people in this thread are just completely ignoring what the OP has said. The OP asked for a simple thing: ‘How to deal with thieves without relying on a team to peel.’ That thing was provided, and then subsequently 80 people jumped on going ‘no, no, no, that’s not right. You should do this instead, and here’s how to survive long enough for your team to peel’. The absurdity of this advice is off the charts.

Pyro has been on the money this entire thread. He’s accurately assessed the OP’s thread and responded appropriately. He hasn’t even been trying to engage in any X build vs Shatter Mes. The only other thing he’s done is pointed out how others have responded poorly, disregarding the OP’s explicit concerns.

So yeah, sorry Chaos, you’re way out in left field on this one.

The Shatter purist people be like “Shatter is the only viable build”

StickerHappy.8052:

cyyrix.6105:

Fay.2357:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Pyro is merrily twisting Juricas words around and pulling out semantics (Yes, I’m sassing you Pyro) as he argues that power shatter isn’t superior to other builds in this specific situation.

This isn’t really true, at least in this situation. My main point is as follows:

The OP is asking specifically for ways to deal with a thief without relying on a team for peeling. Literally every bit of advice Jurica has offered comes with the subtext of ‘so that you live long enough for your team to peel the thief’. This is absurd and unhelpful with respect to what the OP has asked. I’m pointing this out, and originally offered alternative solutions.

cyyrix.6105:

It’s not really logical. Sure a different build helps with thieves, but it makes you weaker against other stuff. Suggesting a different build is like telling someone to patch kitten in their house by tearing off a piece of the roof. It doesn’t solve anything, just displaces the problem.

The better advice in this thread comes from the posts about kiting, watching the minimap to be aware of the thief, and trying to predict/prevent steal.

Again, I feel like half the people in this thread are just completely ignoring what the OP has said. The OP asked for a simple thing: ‘How to deal with thieves without relying on a team to peel.’ That thing was provided, and then subsequently 80 people jumped on going ‘no, no, no, that’s not right. You should do this instead, and here’s how to survive long enough for your team to peel’. The absurdity of this advice is off the charts.

Except he didn’t ask for that, at all. You’re literally making up quotes. If anyone, you need to re-read the post.

He didn’t ask how to duel thieves, he asked how to survive in a match with a good thief. Changing to a build that counters a thief does not help you survive the match…It just displaces the problem off the thief.

What?!??? Nani!???!

You can never avoid 1v1 in a match, so its like a duel right???

Does not help you survive a match? Condition CI good against thief but weak against anything else?

WOW. Please people do some TESTING and a lot of PVP before you come up with outrageous posts!

Don’t even know where to start. Never said it was weak to anything else, never said condi doesn’t help you survive. Nope, not contradicting myself. I feel dumber for even acknowledging your post.

He didn’t ask how to duel thieves, he asked how to survive in a match with a good thief. Changing to a build that counters a thief does not help you survive the match…It just displaces the problem off the thief.

What does that mean? How do you actually not survive the match? Fall damage?

What? What?

StickerHappy.8052:

He didn’t ask how to duel thieves, he asked how to survive in a match with a good thief. Changing to a build that counters a thief does not help you survive the match…It just displaces the problem off the thief.

What does that mean? How do you actually not survive the match? Fall damage?

What? What?

Being less effective overall. Fewer 1v1 deaths does not make fewerdeathss in a match. Too much duel hero logic, sir.

cyyrix.6105:

StickerHappy.8052:

He didn’t ask how to duel thieves, he asked how to survive in a match with a good thief. Changing to a build that counters a thief does not help you survive the match…It just displaces the problem off the thief.

What does that mean? How do you actually not survive the match? Fall damage?

What? What?

Being less effective overall. Fewer 1v1 deaths does not make fewerdeathss in a match. Too much duel hero logic, sir.

Wow the ole twistaroo… what you meant that it does not help you survive the match was waaaay different with what your saying now..

Fewer 1v1 deaths? What makes you say 1v1? You are embarrasing yourself. You say fewer deaths in a match so it means you are referring to other builds to change to does not help you against other classes? I mean cmon now…

You are basically saying that again changing the build does not help you survive the match (WHICH IS REFERRING TO OTHER CLASSES, UNLESS YOU ARE PLAYING AGAINST 5 THIEVES)

So you are saying changing the build is being less effective overall? which means correct me If I am wrong CHANGING A BUILD THAT COUNTERS THIEF IS WEAK OR USELESS AGAINST ANY OTHER CLASSES right?

cyyrix.6105:

Don’t even know where to start. Never said it was weak to anything else, never said condi doesn’t help you survive. Nope, not contradicting myself. I feel dumber for even acknowledging your post.

disgunbegud

Right, lets see here…

cyyrix.6105:

Don’t even know where to start.

That’s ok, I’ve got a few ideas.

cyyrix.6105:

Never said it was weak to anything else

INSTANT FACT CHECK

cyyrix.6105:

Sure a different build helps with thieves, but it makes you weaker against other stuff.

Oopsie.

cyyrix.6105:

never said condi doesn’t help you survive.

INSTANT FACT CHECK

cyyrix.6105:

Changing to a build that counters a thief does not help you survive the match

Oopsie.

cyyrix.6105:

Nope, not contradicting myself.

I’ll let everyone else figure this one out for themselves.