Guild Wars 2

They still give me trouble.

PvP less so because I can get my allies to cover me and force the thief away. However if I have to duel one or take them on 1 on 1 I find with an interrupt build I can usually stand a decent chance against a SD thief. Sometimes I win, sometimes I don’t.

DP though is another story. The only things I can interrupt is basi venom and black powder -> heartseeker combo….except the thief I fought last night didn’t use the combo. Instead they chose to use shadowshot and keep me blind while it does 4k to you. Followed by another 4k auto and PS proc.

I kept managing to delay the inevitable with blink and decoy but I just couldn’t land burst because I was blind all the time (no I wasn’t sitting in the blackpowder) and I couldn’t summon phantasms for the same reason. I just felt unable to do anything especially as he kept being able to kill what few clones and phantasms I did spawn while I was blinded and unable to remove the blind.

So nerf thief, hard and fast /cry.

Ok that last bit was a joke but if anyone can give me some tips it would be nice.

Running sw-p/staff, marauder amulet, numbered top to bottom, dom (1-3-3), duelling (1-1-3), chaos (3-3-1) with ether renewel, blink, decoy, MoD, TW for party, MI for duels.

Hey, the Thieves keep bugging for us to get nerfed, seems like turnabout would be fair play.

Just kidding. I have trouble with them as well, most of the time. I think we need to acknowledge that D/P Thieves will pretty much always hard-counter lockdown builds, because they inherently just can’t be locked down.

Condition builds seem to fare better, though. You can whittle them down with phantasms and bleeds for as long as you can mitigate their bursts. Not sure if it’s the optimal play, but it’s what has worked for me.

The worst thing about fighting thieves are the Runes of Vampirism…

I personally run Celestial lately, in a interrupt build (I’m going to assume it’s rather standard, using PB, CI and so on forth—Staff + Sword/Pistol|Sword|Focus). Thieves on their own don’t give me too much trouble, but I can partially credit that to having gotten it down to be somewhat of a second nature to interrupt at this point though, so I guess that helps. Right? (Tbh. I think I’m just really lucky with my “anticipated” interrupts, but I’ll take it and pretend I’ve gotten good at it. Don’t take that away from me, it’s all I got! No, don’t!)

If you can’t interrupt a thief and know he’s waiting to blind/interrupt your casts, use your CC’s to simply put his skills on cooldown and summon your phantasms on him. Then swap to a defensive nature. Let your phants pressure/wear him down and stay close to them for support. Then when the opportunity strikes, land imob/cc and shatter. Or just let the phants drive them off.

There’s also no reason not to disengage if you can.

D/P #3 has a rather visible animation/projectile trail. There’s no reason he should be hitting you with it unless he does it stealthed to queue a backstab before the shot connects and teleports him to you.

You should also have time to remove the blind with a simple autoattack and if he’s autoattacking you he’s basically shatter fodder.

Outlasting thieves is a bad idea, you have to be aggressive because by the nature of initiative and their resets, their defensive and offensive skills are on shorter cooldowns than yours.

If a thief notices you’re trying to prolong, he’ll just keep resetting till he runs you out of key cooldowns before he does his real burst.

Counterburst the living crap out of them. On your mantra of distraction daze, pack as much damage as you can to force his defensive cd’s.

sword/sword is a particular set that shines against a thief, as does offhand pistol so make sure you have one of those.

shatter is your friend. You can blind him right back via shatter ….

Thieves are easy! I see that shatters and interrupts may have trouble but PU condi Melts them with EASE.

I may use a build that not a lot of players think highly of, but guess what? I play the game how I want. Playing as a PU condi who stacks confusion/ torment is a godsend when fighting thieves. Thieves never give me ANY trouble.

didn’t read what you were running, assumed it wkittenter so my whole post is useless..

I have found that countering D/P thieves can be hit or miss for sure. I have had the best results by using chaos armor in anticipation of their attack. When they hit, I stun/daze them, then I follow up with a chaos storm centered at my feet (this assumes you are running domination/power block trait). This forces them to either press on in the middle of an AOE while you counter burst them, or they will retreat, giving you some breathing room to either push back or to retreat/disengage at your preference. It isn’t fool proof, but with good play you can turn the thief’s ambush into an opportunity to strike back.

Edit: I am currently running a Domination/Chaos/Inspiration GS/Staff PB/CI Power Interrupt Build.

The best advise probably is to not start panicking. Patient thieves will wait out your defenses and have their bursts ready due to the nature of initiative. Don’t spam your defensive cds in advance, making yourself an easy target.

Also make sure to always have an iWave/Chaos Storm/Temporal Curtain ready for Refuge, since that’s probably the worst thing that can happen to you.

sigh, you do not need to run pu condi, you do not need to play reactionary. Standard shatter / interrupt build. You have 3 things on thief, 1 you got range, 2. you have distortion. 3 Shatter damage is AE so stealth does not save them at all.
Play aggressive hit them with a daze and just unload.
if they jump you, shatter 4 then 3 at the same time. That will counter their burst and most likely daze them. This gives you 1-2 seconds to burst them. Refuge won’t save them from a shatter burst + spike. I killed plenty of thieves while they are stealthed. The only problem I have is with theives who can kill me 100-0 when they get the jump but those guys are so glassy you can down them 100-0 in a blink too.

apharma.3741:

Instead they chose to use shadowshot and keep me blind while it does 4k to you. Followed by another 4k auto and PS proc.

I used to keep distance at start and dps (using gs though). At distance you can use illusion to cover yourself against shadowshot projectile (usually I just dodge back to spawn DE clone). If thief ss’d to clone and started aa it – you can interrupt and root/stun him. If you are already blinded with thief in melee distance – use aa (or cry of frustration) to clear blind and then interrupt thief’s aa chain. Thieves have a habit to reposition behind enemy back – don’t panic, turn character fast and aa to cleanse blind and burst back. Or just don’t move and your character would turn to thief automatically at attack.

When you see a thief coming, make an offhanded comment about how Thieves have never been nerfed. When you see them begin to launch into a diatribe about how Thieves have been the single most nerfed class in the game, albiet all games ever, and how in need of buffs they are, interrupt them with an old, standard Thief response of “L2P”. Then, while stunned, burst them.

Don’t bother stomping the downed, just DPS it while running and jumping around in circles.

Thank you for all the tips here. It seems the problem for me really starts when the thief starts the fight, as in gets to steal first with the follow up damage and basi venom etc as it puts me on the back foot so to say.

Been having more success in PvP when entering to +1 against the thief or they don’t see me coming and can get that stun off with follow up damage which causes them to run.

Tealots.6095:

The worst thing about fighting thieves are the Runes of Vampirism…

You realize mesmers are sole reason why every single thief is forced into this rune in pvp? Before patch i wouldn’t even touch it, now i have no choice.

@OP: PU+ condis are your friend.
If you do run shatter:
– the most crucial thing for thief will be always steal. If they land it they get good things from it, if they miss it it might cost them entire fight. As seasoned thief player it is usually relative easy to predict when enemy will be using steal (feel for timing, combination of skills etc). However, avoiding steal as non-thief player might be hard due to lack of experience and no standard formula. All i can say, make sure you land shatter and run blind on shatter trait; steal is 20 sec CD so count time; most thieves run mug so if they are low on HP they are likely to use to to get 2k heal; thieves with improvisation trait will give you hard times because they get double plasma (which however can be interrupted) so make sure you dodge/blind/block/stealth up steal.
Now there is varierity in thief build: quite some thieves run hidden thief (stealth on steal). If they are not running it you may predict steal if it is off CD and thief is about to use bp+hs+steal combo.

- most common build dp runs only with 2 dodge; bait them through canceling GS animations but not actually casting zerker etc; use zerker for garanteed dodge; count dodges – if thief dodged 2 times you can safely shatter in most cases (unless thief is smart and will stealth up before that).

- bad thieves sit in mid of refuge and eat all cleave; good thieves sit on very side edge of refuge and usually avoid all cleave…. just to give you a clue

- shadowshot is has quite good tell so try to watch for it; it also gets body blocked by clones…. so try to have your pets between you and thief

- bp+hs interrupt is huge

- look at their status bar: if they run inf. signet it means they have 3 stun breaks; if they don’t run inf. signet, means they run blinding powder…. make use of your stuns and that knowledge

- thief in sb may be annoying but has way less defensives while being locked in that set, put pressure on them if they camp it

Generally, any fight vs zerkers is about who gets jump on whom (mesmers have better chances here atm), who is better at mind games and has better reaction. Stow weapon, blinds and counting dodges are your friends.

P.S. in pvp maps: abuse terrain, there are plenty of spots (uneven terrain, rocks etc.) that thief can’t teleport to but you can still dps them full with GS.
P.S.S. map awarness is biggest thief enemy: count enemies, watch where thief is going. If you see him comming your way, await hs+ steal.

Cynz.9437:

Tealots.6095:

The worst thing about fighting thieves are the Runes of Vampirism…

You realize mesmers are sole reason why every single thief is forced into this rune in pvp? Before patch i wouldn’t even touch it, now i have no choice.

The point is that they shouldn’t be allowed to have it. They should just die. This goes for all classes.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Cynz.9437:

Tealots.6095:

The worst thing about fighting thieves are the Runes of Vampirism…

You realize mesmers are sole reason why every single thief is forced into this rune in pvp? Before patch i wouldn’t even touch it, now i have no choice.

The point is that they shouldn’t be allowed to have it. They should just die. This goes for all classes.

If this is how game would get balanced we would end up with only mesmers in game and it would be very boring

Cynz.9437:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Cynz.9437:

Tealots.6095:

The worst thing about fighting thieves are the Runes of Vampirism…

You realize mesmers are sole reason why every single thief is forced into this rune in pvp? Before patch i wouldn’t even touch it, now i have no choice.

The point is that they shouldn’t be allowed to have it. They should just die. This goes for all classes.

If this is how game would get balanced we would end up with only mesmers in game and it would be very boring

Oh please, thief hero. You’ve erased every single berserker spec in the game from the meta before mesmers got buffed and now that there’s another apex berserker in the game you’re in “buff thieves” propaganda mode again.

Shouldn’t you be in the pvp forums telling people on stealth abuse/spamming backstab on blocks/blinds “l2p” instead of polluting our forums?

If only my mindwrack refunded its cooldown and clones whenever it was blocked/blinded.

Zenith.7301:

Cynz.9437:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Cynz.9437:

Tealots.6095:

The worst thing about fighting thieves are the Runes of Vampirism…

You realize mesmers are sole reason why every single thief is forced into this rune in pvp? Before patch i wouldn’t even touch it, now i have no choice.

The point is that they shouldn’t be allowed to have it. They should just die. This goes for all classes.

If this is how game would get balanced we would end up with only mesmers in game and it would be very boring

Oh please, thief hero. You’ve erased every single berserker spec in the game from the meta before mesmers got buffed and now that there’s another apex berserker in the game you’re in “buff thieves” propaganda mode again.

Shouldn’t you be in the pvp forums telling people on stealth abuse/spamming backstab on blocks/blinds “l2p” instead of polluting our forums?

If only my mindwrack refunded its cooldown and clones whenever it was blocked/blinded.

Dat salt lol

Thieves didn’t “erase” every single zerker build from pvp, the main culpit was and will stay conquest mode. It favors bruisers and always will due to its nature. Thieves had their spot in pvp only because of their moblity really. Why? Once again only because of the nature of conquest.

Also, before recent balance patch plenty of teams ran mesmes. One of my best friends in game been running mes for ages, won multiple tourneys and crapped on most thieves. I personally loved to run pain train with good mes pre patch, so i don’t see how there were no zerkers in pvp (also RF rangers did/do exist and decent ones were a threat).

Please show me where i ask for massive buffs to thieves (besides making fun of some stupid comments). If you actually do check my history you will find that i think thieves are OK atm, they may need bit help in survival department but otherwise they are fine and what really should happen is that other classes should get toned down to thief level of risk/reward/opportunity costs.

Please show me where i made a post saying L2P. Please do. Even better joke: i just posted in this very thread some info for mes how he can deal with thieves. Where did i write l2p in it?
Yes, i did join discussions about anti-stealth mechanics but that is what discussions are for. You may agree, you may disagree, same goes for me but please don’t assume i just run around forums spamming l2p. That just shows your ignorance.

Here is the thing with so called spammable backstab: it requires stealth (which achieved via blowing long CD (which doesn’t get instantly reset) or using initative which doesn’t get instantly refunded), it requires you to be behind the target, it requires you to expose yourself to all possible cleave/CC, it requires you to actually run hight crit to do any meaningful dmg thus sacrificing defensive stats/traits, it is a single target dmg….. If you really think backstab is free and superior to mindwrack, then we must be playing different game.

Behind the target lol. The sides will do.

Zenith.7301:

Behind the target lol. The sides will do.

not necessary…. now imagine if shatter had positional requirement~

@OP If you learn to anticipate and mind game you can likely pressure better. When you learn to capitalize on that pressure you’ll see a turn around in your play vs thief.

Ever since the fix on blinding dissipation and ineptitude I feel the match up is finally a fair fight.

Now this could be me seeing what I want to see, since I have had this opinion since before the fix. (that it would be fair after* <-to clarify)

But it was bad when thief hand an unfair advantage, and it was just as bad when mes would one shot zerk thief and blind with no counter play.

Btw Cynz is right about bruisers pushing out zerks, it just didn’t help that the match up against thief was bad. But they did better damage, and had better mobility which worked for the meta. We had more range, and utility. Utility was only powerful on specific plays with a coordinated team, and why bother with our old crappy pew pew that would tickle most of the meta when you could run a ranger, or a staff ele? Which ALSO was not even meta… cuz why take a ranger off point when you can have another bruiser on?

The problem with Backstab vs MW however (which I actually think is the lesser issue compared to old S/D but I digress) is that the setup for MW required a target and could be kited, or easily evaded, plus took longer. Also what didn’t help the match up was mes didn’t have very good cleave, and even if it is ok after getting up clones it was nothing compared to engies, necros, warriors, and guardians. Who could do it faster, easier, and more frequent, and were not made of paper-mache.

But the real issue with it was that even if you anticipated it, even if you out played it, majority of the time there would be a lot more pressure on the mes and that is after blowing cooldowns, which even after disengaging still left you in a rather bad spot especially if the thief caught up, cuz now the mes is on cooldowns and the thief is not.

Not to say you couldn’t win in that position or win at all, but it was significant enough to be considered a counter.

Cynz.9437:

Zenith.7301:

Behind the target lol. The sides will do.

not necessary…. now imagine if shatter had positional requirement~

Uhh it kind of does, until chrono the things will stumble to their target unless positioned right

Um actually I have played thief in WvW quite a bit. Usually because I got tired of having little to no disengage when running mesmer pre patch and essentially being at the mercy of thieves, warriors, engineers and really anything that had superior access to swiftness and leaps, so pretty much everyone but guard and necro.

Like I say I think the main problem I’m having is if the thief hits first, then it’s usually GG for me and I should run. If I hit first I can usually put them on the defensive and kill them.

Some good tips I’ll try to do like LoS with my clones. SD thieves seem to be getting more popular but it’s more of a case of timing an interrupt for when the dodge frame ends I’ve found.

Cynz.9437:

Zenith.7301:

Behind the target lol. The sides will do.

not necessary…. now imagine if shatter had positional requirement~

Mind wrack is fine and has drawbacks just like backstab: easier to dodge, cd, positioning is actually crucial, we often exhaust our dodges to get up clones, we need to take the time to get up the clones, and the clones get easily cleaved in team fights.
Unless you do it exactly right, the damage will not be that high.

There is some role overlap with thief, but there’s clear differences in playstyle considering team support, mobility, and the way the bursts are applied. Our burst mechanic leaves us very vulnerable and requires some defense besides dodging.

About this “Please show me where i ask for massive buffs to thieves (besides making fun of some stupid comments). If you actually do check my history you will find that i think thieves are OK atm, they may need bit help in survival department but otherwise they are fine and what really should happen is that other classes should get toned down to thief level of risk/reward/opportunity costs.”

I fail to see how this is different from asking buffs for all classes you consider lower tier, since it’s all about relative strength. You want PU to be toned down, I could live with that, really.

apharma.3741:

Like I say I think the main problem I’m having is if the thief hits first, then it’s usually GG for me and I should run. If I hit first I can usually put them on the defensive and kill them.

If it’s a question of hitting first, I find things like Runes of the Nightmare work great to mitigate enemy first strikes. I’m not sure if Mirror of Anguish works on Stoned but that could be an option if the problem is Basilisk Venom.

Embolism.8106:

apharma.3741:

Like I say I think the main problem I’m having is if the thief hits first, then it’s usually GG for me and I should run. If I hit first I can usually put them on the defensive and kill them.

If it’s a question of hitting first, I find things like Runes of the Nightmare work great to mitigate enemy first strikes. I’m not sure if Mirror of Anguish works on Stoned but that could be an option if the problem is Basilisk Venom.

Often the damage will register before BV lands. BV is just there to delay the reaction, it also makes it easier to proc panic strike.

Cynz.9437:

As seasoned thief player it is usually relative easy to predict when enemy will be using steal

Hmm. I have totally opposite opinion. Vs good thief it is pretty hard.
To OP. Many thieves use steal as gap closer. Thus prepare to dodge when thief comes in 1200 distance. If he is an asura spamming aa to hamper your reactive dodge rolling – try mere stealth when thief enters in 1200 distance and start attack 1st (though thief would be prepared to dodge your attacks/burst)
Berserk fake casting is useless imo. Ppl dodge when berserker spawn and start whirling animation, not when mesmer starts cast.

A skilled thief will land steal 95% of the time. It’s a 1200 range instant skill with no tell whatsoever. It’s basically the same situation as the daze mantra (with conversion causing complaints). Yeah, you can try to whip out your crystal ball and predict when it’ll be used, but anyone decent will land it the vast majority of the time.

Thieves are kind of a work in the park for me. Believe it or not but I love facing them and don’t really have much trouble with them.

The only thing I do hate about them is the fact that they always run for the hills when and come back almost fully healed and try again with almost the same results, if i have all my CD up. If not then it going to be a hard fight, and yes I may or will lose.

But all in all, I don’t find thieves hard in my build anymore. I actually love it when they jump me.

A thief can hard counter a mesmer ONLY where as a mes can counter nearly everything else (except a thief) . A thief is and always will be a mesmers biggest threat…Bla Bla, we all know this.

As a thief main my self, mesmers still beat me but after doing more and more I am starting to get better at fighting them. Power mesmers can spike me for sure but the Condi version is a very hard 1 to take out.

I don’t see many mesmers that run staff sw/p, it’s mainly gs sw/t. Anyway the gs is pretty nasty for us, it’s all about dmg dmg and more dmg. But what all I can say is keep your distance and watch for d/p #3 it’s slow and can be dodged and cost 4 iniative. Most thievs take the trickery line so we have 15 and the #5 #2 cost us 8 I native, getting the rupt on hs it’s pretty bad for us as with out iniative we can’t really do much.

Not really gonna say much about pu Condi, that build can beat most things.

About vamp runes in pvp, I never really understood them. I rarely play ranked pvp but even so when ever I see that vamp rune has proct I just count 2 1 and hs half second after or head shot. The only time I have seen it work is in proper organised teams and I don’t just mean guild teams.

Current meta: PU mesmer against SA thief = both go into stealth and not knowing where your opponent goes…

Exciton.8942:

Current meta: PU mesmer against SA thief = both go into stealth and not knowing where your opponent goes…

Just today I stealthed so long I went ooc in a duel. whoops.

Seriously, though.
I honestly do think thief still has the advantage in a straightforward 1v1 deathmatch. If both parties are reasonably skilled and know how to predict and avoid damage well, thief will tend to connect more simply because thief burst is mostly faster than mesmer.
So yea.. that’s what I tell myself when I lose duels, anyway..
I spend a lot of time roaming/dueling in WvW and fighting a good thief can be near impossible.

PU dire. beat everything.

Lightsbane.9012:

PU dire. beat everything.

PU dire is a condi build.

Lemme just provide some choice quotes from you over the last few days.

from the engineer forum:

elixir c. tossing of elixirs…annnnd well i rarely lose to condi builds.

from the necro forum:

most condi (insert class) don’t tend to be able to deal well with condi transfers to be honest. So i think the plague signet is a must( and soon ’suffer) in wvw.

You don’t seem too concerned about condis, why are you so apocalyptic about it now?

Did you get facerolled by someone in WvW?

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Lightsbane.9012:

PU dire. beat everything.

PU dire is a condi build.

Lemme just provide some choice quotes from you over the last few days.

from the engineer forum:

elixir c. tossing of elixirs…annnnd well i rarely lose to condi builds.

from the necro forum:

most condi (insert class) don’t tend to be able to deal well with condi transfers to be honest. So i think the plague signet is a must( and soon ’suffer) in wvw.

You don’t seem too concerned about condis, why are you so apocalyptic about it now?

Did you get facerolled by someone in WvW?

depending on class i play. each class has their own ways of dealing with conditions, and some classes can outperform cleanses to the degree that they’re really annoying to fight. example being, mesmer. i’m glad you went that out of your way for argument’s sake though.
to clarify: i rarely lose to condi builds (on my engi, that was posted in the engi forum for a reason), and my necromancer. not so much my guardian or ranger. their active cleanses are on much higher cooldowns, and there are less of them.

Lightsbane.9012:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Lightsbane.9012:

PU dire. beat everything.

PU dire is a condi build.

Lemme just provide some choice quotes from you over the last few days.

from the engineer forum:

elixir c. tossing of elixirs…annnnd well i rarely lose to condi builds.

from the necro forum:

most condi (insert class) don’t tend to be able to deal well with condi transfers to be honest. So i think the plague signet is a must( and soon ’suffer) in wvw.

You don’t seem too concerned about condis, why are you so apocalyptic about it now?

Did you get facerolled by someone in WvW?

depending on class i play. each class has their own ways of dealing with conditions, and some classes can outperform cleanses to the degree that they’re really annoying to fight. example being, mesmer. i’m glad you went that out of your way for argument’s sake though.
to clarify: i rarely lose to condi builds (on my engi, that was posted in the engi forum for a reason), and my necromancer. not so much my guardian or ranger. their active cleanses are on much higher cooldowns, and there are less of them.

So when you say ‘beat everything’, what you actually mean is ‘beat a couple classes depending on what builds they run’. Got it.

Run a survival ranger, with the trait for reduced cool down on weapon swap skill and the amount of cleanses you have coupled with ranged power and kiting you should never die to condition builds.

If you get in trouble, use entangle to cleanse 2 conditions, root the player, switch weapons and swoop, swoop away!

The act of using the survival skills actually procs confusion. The conditions are also cleansed at the end of the cast/on a delay rather than the beginning as well. All stealth also completely breaks entangle, without a condition cleanse. Any thief/mesmer/ranger/engi/soon guardian can completely negate this effect altogether by entering stealth and moving. You’re actually able to break the immobilize this way.

Dire PU condi mes really doesn’t have much of a counter aside from stealth traps.

DeceiverX.8361:

The act of using the survival skills actually procs confusion. The conditions are also cleansed at the end of the cast/on a delay rather than the beginning as well. All stealth also completely breaks entangle, without a condition cleanse. Any thief/mesmer/ranger/engi/soon guardian can completely negate this effect altogether by entering stealth and moving. You’re actually able to break the immobilize this way.

Dire PU condi mes really doesn’t have much of a counter aside from stealth traps.

Diamond skin Ele and condi Necro hard counter my dire PU condi mes.

I wouldn’t say hardcounter. I don’t see a PU mesmer dying to a diamond skin ele unless he wants to, you just can’t kill them either.

Necro is also not too bad, they’re interrupt bait and being PU condi doesn’t lock you out of your interrupt options considering most PU run offhand pistol and staff so you’ve got plenty of interrupts. The torch offhand variants I find just overload on stealth at a great offensive loss, not worth it at all compared to the control and spike condi pressure from pistol offhand.

The best part about PU mesmer is that you can just plagiarize thief behavior of never dying unless you’re dumb. With the silly amount of stealth and aegis+blink you have so much getaway potential that even if you don’t get a kill you can disengage at will and reset/try again later.

It cuts both ways though, PU mesmer or any condi mesmer for that matter has such a condition ramp up that any opponent who’s not obsessed with winning 1v1’s can just disengage from you and you won’t be very successful chasing as PU, staff projectiles are slow and sword ileap is unreliable for catching people who run away.

Zenith.7301:

I wouldn’t say hardcounter. I don’t see a PU mesmer dying to a diamond skin ele unless he wants to, you just can’t kill them either.

Necro is also not too bad, they’re interrupt bait and being PU condi doesn’t lock you out of your interrupt options considering most PU run offhand pistol and staff so you’ve got plenty of interrupts. The torch offhand variants I find just overload on stealth at a great offensive loss, not worth it at all compared to the control and spike condi pressure from pistol offhand.

The best part about PU mesmer is that you can just plagiarize thief behavior of never dying unless you’re dumb. With the silly amount of stealth and aegis+blink you have so much getaway potential that even if you don’t get a kill you can disengage at will and reset/try again later.

Decent point about a diamond skin ele. I’ve been smoked by an offensive-oriented Diamond Skin ele before (and can’t cap points against d/d diamond skin, though that’s not wvw), but I imagine that kind of build is too glass to be strong against non-condition builds.

As far as “most PU run offhand pistol”, you smokin’ something?
With PU, decoy, and Mass Invis, you get at most 16 seconds of invisibility, and that on a 90s cooldown.
6s Decoy on 32s is just not nearly enough stealth to accomplish much in WvW as a mesmer, and it’s a far, FAR cry from your “silly amount of stealth”.
No, if you’re gonna be a “PU” build in WvW, you’re running torch. Even then, to get “silly amounts of stealth”, you’re running The Pledge as well.

If you don’t, you’re not a “PU build”, you’re a shatter/lockdown/condi mesmer with a little more stealth than usual.

That offhand torch guts your condition pressure. You gain more stealth via torch, but at what price?

Basically our differences are how much of a bunker you want to build as. I don’t just choose PU for the stealth duration, I choose it for the aegis and protection I gain.

I just don’t see the appeal of offhand torch+ pledge, the phantasm does absolutely horrendous damage, and every time you have far less bleeds on a target, no real CC outside chaso storm and diversion. It’s basically a troll stealth build that relies on your opponent’s massive stupidity to stay for that long an amount of time for you to wear him down. Offhand pistol provides a spike in condi application.

Zenith.7301:

That offhand torch guts your condition pressure. You gain more stealth via torch, but at what price?

Guts your condition pressure? That’s not even flirting with reality.

Offhand torch gives you an aoe blind (confusion), an aoe burn, and a bouncing projectile burn that is admittedly of questionable value.

Offhand pistol gives you a stun and a single target volley that will apply bleeds.

You absolutely get a similar amount of condition pressure from torch as you do pistol. In fact, in an aoe environment you get far more condition damage from torch than from pistol. On top of that, you gain far more access to stealth and associated boons, as well as more condition removal as well.

Zenith.7301:

Basically our differences are how much of a bunker you want to build as. I don’t just choose PU for the stealth duration, I choose it for the aegis and protection I gain.

With just decoy and mass invis, you’re not gonna be getting much of any defensive boons from stealthing…because you have extremely limited access to stealth. Saying ‘oh, I just take it for the boons’ is ludicrous because without stealth you get no boons.

Zenith.7301:

I just don’t see the appeal of offhand torch+ pledge, the phantasm does absolutely horrendous damage,

The duelist isn’t going to be breaking any direct damage records either when you’re running full rabid. The duelist will apply ~6 bleeds (generously) on your target, while the Mage will apply one burn. Yeah, the Mage does less damage, but not that much less. Additionally, the duelist is single target only, while the Mage (and the prestige) can hit multiple enemies at once. Basically, you’re wrong.

Zenith.7301:

and every time you have far less bleeds on a target,

So what? You’re trading single target bleed application for multi-target burn application. I’ll take the burns any day of the week.

Zenith.7301:

no real CC outside chaos storm and diversion.

So what? It’s not an interrupt build, you don’t need to be pumping out hard cc. In fact, hard cc interacts destructively with your main damage: confusion and torment. Chaos storm and diversion provide plenty of interrupts if you use them intelligently.

Zenith.7301:

It’s basically a troll stealth build that relies on your opponent’s massive stupidity to stay for that long an amount of time for you to wear him down. Offhand pistol provides a spike in condi application.

As I’ve just shown, you’re simply wrong in every way. Offhand pistol doesn’t really provide a noticeable spike n condie application (this is a shatter build remember, spike condie application is built into the playstyle if you’re intelligent).

The only single thing the offhand pistol really gives you is better synergy for a hybrid build using sinister or rampager gear. However, I’m assuming that we’re not discussing that sort of build here, so that point is irrelevant.

/walks into thread.

So, I think tha-

/sees pyro’s post.

/walks out and shuts the door.

Best bet is to find a thief and duel him, we’ve got a something of an alliance going with [Teef] so you could always feel free to hit up someone from there and make a request for some duels, plenty of helpful players there willing to spend time with ya.

Fay.2357:

Zenith.7301:

That offhand torch guts your condition pressure. You gain more stealth via torch, but at what price?

Guts your condition pressure? That’s not even flirting with reality.

Offhand torch gives you an aoe blind (confusion), an aoe burn, and a bouncing projectile burn that is admittedly of questionable value.

Offhand pistol gives you a stun and a single target volley that will apply bleeds.

You absolutely get a similar amount of condition pressure from torch as you do pistol. In fact, in an aoe environment you get far more condition damage from torch than from pistol. On top of that, you gain far more access to stealth and associated boons, as well as more condition removal as well.

Zenith.7301:

Basically our differences are how much of a bunker you want to build as. I don’t just choose PU for the stealth duration, I choose it for the aegis and protection I gain.

With just decoy and mass invis, you’re not gonna be getting much of any defensive boons from stealthing…because you have extremely limited access to stealth. Saying ‘oh, I just take it for the boons’ is ludicrous because without stealth you get no boons.

Zenith.7301:

I just don’t see the appeal of offhand torch+ pledge, the phantasm does absolutely horrendous damage,

The duelist isn’t going to be breaking any direct damage records either when you’re running full rabid. The duelist will apply ~6 bleeds (generously) on your target, while the Mage will apply one burn. Yeah, the Mage does less damage, but not that much less. Additionally, the duelist is single target only, while the Mage (and the prestige) can hit multiple enemies at once. Basically, you’re wrong.

Zenith.7301:

and every time you have far less bleeds on a target,

So what? You’re trading single target bleed application for multi-target burn application. I’ll take the burns any day of the week.

Zenith.7301:

no real CC outside chaos storm and diversion.

So what? It’s not an interrupt build, you don’t need to be pumping out hard cc. In fact, hard cc interacts destructively with your main damage: confusion and torment. Chaos storm and diversion provide plenty of interrupts if you use them intelligently.

Zenith.7301:

It’s basically a troll stealth build that relies on your opponent’s massive stupidity to stay for that long an amount of time for you to wear him down. Offhand pistol provides a spike in condi application.

As I’ve just shown, you’re simply wrong in every way. Offhand pistol doesn’t really provide a noticeable spike n condie application (this is a shatter build remember, spike condie application is built into the playstyle if you’re intelligent).

The only single thing the offhand pistol really gives you is better synergy for a hybrid build using sinister or rampager gear. However, I’m assuming that we’re not discussing that sort of build here, so that point is irrelevant.

I’m not taking PU for aoe purposes. I’ll build power if I want to run anything not 1v1 related.The phantasmal mage comes with the disadvantage of a slower projectile. It’s a terrible phantasm.

I also wouldn’t go around throwing statements like “not even flirting with reality” when you compare a 1 stack of 6 seconds of burn as not that much less damage than 6 stacks of 5 second bleeds.

6 seconds of 1 burning stack at 2500 condition damage is 3159 damage.

5 seconds of 6 bleed stacks at 2500 condition damage is 5160 damage. A 39% damage difference.

Yeah, the Mage does less damage, but not that much less.

I don’t think I want to continue a discussion with you by this point.

• While I disagree with Pyro on the value of the iMage itself, I agree with the rest of what he said, and I agree that you won’t notice iMage vs iDuelist much in pvp because they just don’t live long enough for that.

Zenith.7301:

It’s basically a troll stealth build that relies on your opponent’s massive stupidity to stay for that long an amount of time for you to wear him down.

Except that’s exactly what everyone is whining about! That massive amount of stealth! In WvW, it’s actually very strong! In fact, you admitted that yourself!
That’s the real problem with your claim, you see:

The torch offhand variants I find just overload on stealth at a great offensive loss, not worth it at all compared to the control and spike condi pressure from pistol offhand.

^ okay, so you say PU doesn’t use torch

The best part about PU mesmer is that you can just plagiarize thief behavior of never dying unless you’re dumb. With the silly amount of stealth and aegis+blink you have so much getaway potential that even if you don’t get a kill you can disengage at will and reset/try again later.

^ okay, so you say PU has a silly amount of stealth.

Understand that I’ve already proven that “a silly amount of stealth” requires torch. Period.
And then you went and suggested that “a silly amount of stealth” is just a “troll stealth build”.

So which is it, Zenith? Is the great thing about playing PU mesmer ripping off thieves with a silly amount of stealth? Or is that just a troll stealth build?

The truth is,
If you want to rip off thieves, you gotta run torch.
If the trick to beating condi necros is interrupts, you gotta run interrupts, and that means taking pistol…
and having no interrupt support, because I’m using Deceptive Evasion so I can’t use Mistrust (which sucks anyway), and I’m using PU so I can’t use Chaotic Interruption, and I can’t afford to drop Dueling or Chaos for Dom because Sharper Images is in dueling and PU is in Chaos, so I’m left with 0 interrupt support.

So…condi necros counter me.

Additionally, the ability to run away from an enemy doesn’t mean they don’t hard counter me. I can’t beat a diamond skin ele, period. If I’m trying to take a camp, kill a dolyak, kill a guard, cap the temple, whatever, and a diamond skin ele shows up, my options are:
1. run away
2. run away
3. Hope someone else shows up to help me.
That’s what a hard counter is, a build that by its very nature counters your strengths, not necessarily a build that means death the moment you see it.

So diamond skin eles and condi necros still hard counter me.
I’m gonna add condi thief to that list, because I just don’t have enough condi cleanse to beat them, and we’re evenly matched in the stealth game.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

• While I disagree with Pyro on the value of the iMage itself, I agree with the rest of what he said, and I agree that you won’t notice iMage vs iDuelist much in pvp because they just don’t live long enough for that.

Zenith.7301:

It’s basically a troll stealth build that relies on your opponent’s massive stupidity to stay for that long an amount of time for you to wear him down.

Except that’s exactly what everyone is whining about! That massive amount of stealth! In WvW, it’s actually very strong! In fact, you admitted that yourself!
That’s the real problem with your claim, you see:

The torch offhand variants I find just overload on stealth at a great offensive loss, not worth it at all compared to the control and spike condi pressure from pistol offhand.

^ okay, so you say PU doesn’t use torch

The best part about PU mesmer is that you can just plagiarize thief behavior of never dying unless you’re dumb. With the silly amount of stealth and aegis+blink you have so much getaway potential that even if you don’t get a kill you can disengage at will and reset/try again later.

^ okay, so you say PU has a silly amount of stealth.

Understand that I’ve already proven that “a silly amount of stealth” requires torch. Period.
And then you went and suggested that “a silly amount of stealth” is just a “troll stealth build”.

So which is it, Zenith? Is the great thing about playing PU mesmer ripping off thieves with a silly amount of stealth? Or is that just a troll stealth build?

The truth is,
If you want to rip off thieves, you gotta run torch.
If the trick to beating condi necros is interrupts, you gotta run interrupts, and that means taking pistol…
and having no interrupt support, because I’m using Deceptive Evasion so I can’t use Mistrust (which sucks anyway), and I’m using PU so I can’t use Chaotic Interruption, and I can’t afford to drop Dueling or Chaos for Dom because Sharper Images is in dueling and PU is in Chaos, so I’m left with 0 interrupt support.

So…condi necros counter me.

Additionally, the ability to run away from an enemy doesn’t mean they don’t hard counter me. I can’t beat a diamond skin ele, period. If I’m trying to take a camp, kill a dolyak, kill a guard, cap the temple, whatever, and a diamond skin ele shows up, my options are:
1. run away
2. run away
3. Hope someone else shows up to help me.
That’s what a hard counter is, a build that by its very nature counters your strengths, not necessarily a build that means death the moment you see it.

So diamond skin eles and condi necros still hard counter me.
I’m gonna add condi thief to that list, because I just don’t have enough condi cleanse to beat them, and we’re evenly matched in the stealth game.

I think 16 seconds of stealth is a silly amount of stealth. We just operate by different notions of what is silly, and I’m sorry I didn’t clarify.

I just said I liked pistol better as an overall weapon. It’s just a great offhand whereas torch is an offhand with 1 good skill and 1 terrible one.

I think your build still wins out even if you can’t cap objectives. I’m seeing it from a perspective of 1v1 combat, not whether you can take objectives.

To me PU is poor for taking objectives anyways, it’s a slow damage build, anet keeps gutting condi mesmer for no reason, and your averag power interrupt build will be taking camps quicker.

The whole appeal of PU is that it’s a good 1v1 build with no glaring weaknesses to other classes and the ability to disengage well, which isn’t usually a mesmer strength. Both torch and pistol variants do well for different reasons, but against classes for which I need more pressure and interrupts, which are many, I prefer the pistol. That ranged stun is much more flexible than the prestige.

TLDR buff Phantasmal Mage!

Zenith.7301:

Fay.2357:

Zenith.7301:

That offhand torch guts your condition pressure. You gain more stealth via torch, but at what price?

Guts your condition pressure? That’s not even flirting with reality.

Offhand torch gives you an aoe blind (confusion), an aoe burn, and a bouncing projectile burn that is admittedly of questionable value.

Offhand pistol gives you a stun and a single target volley that will apply bleeds.

You absolutely get a similar amount of condition pressure from torch as you do pistol. In fact, in an aoe environment you get far more condition damage from torch than from pistol. On top of that, you gain far more access to stealth and associated boons, as well as more condition removal as well.

Zenith.7301:

Basically our differences are how much of a bunker you want to build as. I don’t just choose PU for the stealth duration, I choose it for the aegis and protection I gain.

With just decoy and mass invis, you’re not gonna be getting much of any defensive boons from stealthing…because you have extremely limited access to stealth. Saying ‘oh, I just take it for the boons’ is ludicrous because without stealth you get no boons.

Zenith.7301:

I just don’t see the appeal of offhand torch+ pledge, the phantasm does absolutely horrendous damage,

The duelist isn’t going to be breaking any direct damage records either when you’re running full rabid. The duelist will apply ~6 bleeds (generously) on your target, while the Mage will apply one burn. Yeah, the Mage does less damage, but not that much less. Additionally, the duelist is single target only, while the Mage (and the prestige) can hit multiple enemies at once. Basically, you’re wrong.

Zenith.7301:

and every time you have far less bleeds on a target,

So what? You’re trading single target bleed application for multi-target burn application. I’ll take the burns any day of the week.

Zenith.7301:

no real CC outside chaos storm and diversion.

So what? It’s not an interrupt build, you don’t need to be pumping out hard cc. In fact, hard cc interacts destructively with your main damage: confusion and torment. Chaos storm and diversion provide plenty of interrupts if you use them intelligently.

Zenith.7301:

It’s basically a troll stealth build that relies on your opponent’s massive stupidity to stay for that long an amount of time for you to wear him down. Offhand pistol provides a spike in condi application.

As I’ve just shown, you’re simply wrong in every way. Offhand pistol doesn’t really provide a noticeable spike n condie application (this is a shatter build remember, spike condie application is built into the playstyle if you’re intelligent).

The only single thing the offhand pistol really gives you is better synergy for a hybrid build using sinister or rampager gear. However, I’m assuming that we’re not discussing that sort of build here, so that point is irrelevant.

I’m not taking PU for aoe purposes. I’ll build power if I want to run anything not 1v1 related.The phantasmal mage comes with the disadvantage of a slower projectile. It’s a terrible phantasm.

I also wouldn’t go around throwing statements like “not even flirting with reality” when you compare a 1 stack of 6 seconds of burn as not that much less damage than 6 stacks of 5 second bleeds.

6 seconds of 1 burning stack at 2500 condition damage is 3159 damage.

5 seconds of 6 bleed stacks at 2500 condition damage is 5160 damage. A 39% damage difference.

Yeah, the Mage does less damage, but not that much less.

I don’t think I want to continue a discussion with you by this point.

Considering that the Mage can apply a bleed too, the real damage difference is only about 29%, and that’s assuming that the duelist unload doesn’t get dodged (nobody dodges the Mage bolt).

It’s also interesting that you’re claiming that you only use the build for 1v1. You’ll need to tell me the secret then, because I’ve never managed to persuade enemy roaming groups in WvW to fight me 1 at a time.

When I take a build into WvW for roaming, I expect to be engaging 1v3 or worse, because that’s simply the nature of WvW roaming. Aoe is part of how you need to fight when outnumbered. If you’re claiming that you only need to consider 1v1 fights, then you’re not roaming WvW, you’re dueling. If you’re dueling then PU is a waste anyway, take BD instead and you’ll be better.

Dodging a duelist mitigates part of the barrage. Dodging an iMage mitigates an entirety of its damage. I don’t get why you’re saying no one dodges iMage, any person that has played the game for some time is already conditioned to avoid phantasm attacks. You’re crating some cherry picked circumstance to paint your scenario in a better light, either way the iduelist does considerably more damage on a single target.

A 29% damage difference with an unlikely bleed proc on a slow projectile is not something I’d call insignificant. It is a meaningful difference.

I just don’t frequent WvW where I know I’ll get interruptions. There’s plenty of designated WvW spaces where most people go around dueling. I love BD as well, but I take PU for the simple fact that if I feel like taking a spin somewhere else in WvW while not dueling, PU is a far easier spec to disengage and reset. If people try to outnumber me, I simply stealth off to the sunset, though good for you that you’re not lazy like me and prefer to build for the challenge.

I also prefer to run power specs so my availability of gearsets and food to complement the different builds is limited. I’ve settled on a single loadout for PU for 1v1 giggles and a power spec for when I want to actually be useful for my team.

I still firmly believe torch should be an undisputed condition application offhand and the iMage needs buffing. If they nerf PU, I hope The Pledge gets retooled as well since the torch still feels too niche. It’d be nice if they buffed torch’s iMage at least so mesmer could rely on it for condi pve specs. I don’t see how 3-4 burning stacks instead of its single one would be too much relative to what the other power phantasms are putting out right now.

If anything most condi mesmer builds need some propping up to not be completely eclipsed by engineers.